Gay rights in FM19???

[Consiglieri]

So I noticed a rainbow flag in FM19, is this flag a gesture for the LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual) movement rights? 

SI has always aimt to make the game as realistic as posible, so my question is how often do you see this flag in football??

Don't get me wrong, it's okay if you guys support this movement, but why put it in the game?
This flag is a political statment and if there is one thing that makes sport ugly, is when there goes politics in it.
Some of the political topic are if "trans" should be appel to compete in female sports, like fighting, and also should a 14 yr old boy, that feels like a girl be appeal to take showers with the girls? 
I'm not saying this to start a debat, and I dont care about you opinion, but this movement is all about shutting down peoples right of freedom of speech, by trying for force laws, labeling people that disagrees  "hate spearkers" and makes it a crime. Just look up: bill c 16 - I could recommend Jordan Peterson lectures on this bill.

So my real question is, could we please keep politics out of the greatest game of all time?????   

[alanschu14]

Hard disagree. Little things like this are both a nice touch and I think more important than people realize for those groups. Especially if devs are members.

And it's an exercise in free speech to include something like this so.

 

Take care.

[santy001]

I don't care nearly enough to have an informed opinion about it all and what it represents out in the world when politics are involved.

However, football (especially in the UK through campaigns like the rainbow laces one I've seen recently) is embracing the acceptance of the fact the whole community is there and exists.

Why you're bringing other stuff into it that is not part of it is bizarre @Consiglieri there's nothing about that flag that speaks to whether people can shower with other people. Also a Canadian law has very little impact on what SI do as a British company.

- - -

There are actively supporters groups who unite under such a group identity. What you're trying to impose on this runs the risk of being very disingenuous. It represents a reality of football. It has no impact on the game and it's in no way political.

That being said, politics are something that influence football and have to be included. Work permits are ultimately political in their nature. They're included in FM for the sake of accuracy. If all you're seeing in FM is a stadium full of rainbow flags and every game its the same maybe its time to ask SI why all the flags are like this, but one little flag doesn't seem a big deal.

[Lord Rowell]

Well actually we're having rainbow flags in English football, along with substitution boards, bootlaces and captains armbands

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/nov/17/rainbow-corner-flags-armbands-welcome-lgbt-fans-stonewall-rainbow-laces

This is about promoting inclusivity and helping everyone to feel welcome in this beautiful game of ours. Likewise, SI are doing the same in their game, and I support it 100%.

I am absolutely baffled as to how anyone can think having these symbols shuts down free speech? It seems to me that opposing these symbols is what opposes freedom of expression, representation and therefore by extension, freedom of speech for people in those communities.

[Neil Brock]

 

[Nombre de usuario genérico]

I disagree also.  I think political ideas in sports help with advancing the cause quicker because it's thrown in the mainstream and is discussed more often rather being left in background and ignored.  Because it's happening in a forum we all enjoy, we are more likely to embrace it, maybe for the pure reason that we are seeing statements while experiencing a moment of joy and exhilaration.  Maybe it could even be considered a form of brainwashing, but it's for a good cause.

Here in the states, Jackie Robinson success in baseball helped the fight for equality.

[White Flag]

The only real issue is that so far as UK football is concerned  is that the banners added to FM are generally much smaller than the ones which are seen in real life.

[JordanMilly]

https://www.fcsp-shop.com/en_DE/equipment/flags-and-pannants/skull-and-crossbones-flag-rainbow-sp261600

GERMAN SECOND DIVISION club St Pauli will fly the rainbow flag, symbolising gay pride, permanently at their Hamburg stadium, the club announced on Thursday. - July 2013

[Carmi88]

15 minutes ago, White Flag said:

The only real issue is that so far as UK football is concerned  is that the banners added to FM are generally much smaller than the ones which are seen in real life.

bigger banners please SI

 

also the occasional rainbow laces/armband

[JordanMilly]

If I'm understanding correctly, @Consiglieri is saying it's okay for you to support gay rights... as long as you stay in the closet about it?

[santy001]

Sometimes I think its rather just a case of perhaps people not knowing how much goes on around it.

I said in my own post I'm pretty ignorant to it overall because it's of no impact to me and so I could only offer up the example that came to mind regarding laces. Part and parcel of living in a time in which only the negative makes the news, I have no idea the context of the Newcastle one or any of the other pictures. So I can definitely see how it comes up in someones mind as something to question if they then see it happening in FM but haven't elsewhere. 

- - -

As I also said initially the only thing that anyone really has to be wary of is trying to infer things that shouldn't be inferred from something simply being there. There was a guy a few weeks back who went on some bizarre tirade about SI supporting the annexation of Crimea just because there was a mod on the forums that had teams in Crimea with a Russian flag (he sent me a mildly amusing, abusive message about my views - or lack thereof - regarding that).

So again I wouldn't try to infer too much about Consiglieri either @JordanMillward_1 because it's not entirely impossible that they genuinely haven't seen it in football themselves. 

[JordanMilly]

To be fair, @santy001, he suggested people listen to Jordan Peterson, who claims that misgendering someone who is trans will get you arrested, and that men are "order", while women are "chaos", so the type of person who would suggest others listen to Peterson is suspect from the start.

[Maaka]

3 hours ago, Consiglieri said:

I'm not saying this to start a debat, and I dont care about you opinion, but this movement is all about shutting down peoples right of freedom of speech, by trying for force laws, labeling people that disagrees  "hate spearkers" and makes it a crime. Just look up: bill c 16 - I could recommend Jordan Peterson lectures on this bill.

I think you have misunderstood just a bit about what the rainbow flag is. Yes, it's a symbol of the LGBT-community, but it's not a symbol for "shutting down people right of freedom of speech", that's pretty much the opposite of what it represents.
And Jordan Peterson's interpretation of bill C-16 is not to be taken as straight facts, a number of scholars and lawyers have challenged his views on this.

[Consiglieri]

I see that I need to elaborate on my topic, because you guys clearly misunderstood it. 
First of all I did not say that there has never been a rainbow flag at a stadium, go read it again, but thank you for posting pictures. 
Second of all, I'm in no way againt gay rights, as long as its does not surpasses my rights. But if you guys are not aware that the flag is a political symbol, i'm then sorry to inform you guys, that you are beeing ignorant. and its not equality we are talking , but go back and read what I wrote. 
 

[Maaka]

Are you saying that your right to discriminate against people with different views than yours should trump their rights to not being discriminated by people who disagree with them? Or am I misunderstandig you?

Yes, the flag is a political symbol, but I'm happy to inform you that it's not a symbol of discrimination or restrictions of human rights, it's a symbol (yes, a political one) in favor of human rights - for everyone.

[santy001]

@Consiglieri you can utilise anything as political imagery should it suit your needs. This has been done with the English flag, its been done with the Union Jack. No doubt it's been done with many other flags around the world, and many other images. 

You may very well be more familiar with it in a political sphere, but it isn't categorically only political in its nature.

- - -

As I said, its reflecting the generally speaking wider acceptance of the community within football. Looking to be inclusive, Kick It Out has been featured in FM and its never been political there either. Brexit has been included and that isn't political either in the way in which its included. It's merely representative of the world in which football takes place in.

Of course, there are political issues in the background. As I said, everything can be utilised politically or has a political aspect to it at some point, it's too exhaustive to go through the list because everything can have a political connotation. 

The point is just that you shouldn't be looking to infer any political meaning from its inclusion in FM. FM tries to encapsulate the world of football. That's all. 

The only caveat is that FM is an idealist perspective on football, it doesn't include players suffering cancer, it doesn't include fans brawling on the terraces or attacking opposition team buses, nor does it include anything disastrous impacting a team such as what befell the team I support Stoke back in the 1970's when the roof came off a stand during a storm and the insurers refused to pay out. Some of these are legal issues, some are just a matter of taste. But I would say that there's nothing political in nature about FM. It just aims to reflect the reality of the world we live in.

- - -

If the topic doesn't go somewhere more productive this thread will invariably be likely to be closed. If you've got some genuine criticisms strip the political aspects out and flag up what your objection to it is. 

I mean I do have one actually to suggest, many clubs will not actually leave space like that between advertising hoardings for fans to hang a flag of any description there in the first place in my experience. I'm pretty sure Stoke ban the hanging of flags over the front, but do allow fans to hang them at the back of the stand.

[Consiglieri]

For sure you misunderstood me. 
Let me copy paste what I wrote; Some of the political topic are if "trans" should be appel to compete in female sports, like fighting, and also should a 14 yr old boy, that feels like a girl be appeal to take showers with the girls?
Some would say that if these thing would be the norm, then the rights of those, would trump the rights of women with the XX chromosome to have a fair competition, or for Women with XX chromosome to have the freedom to taking public bath without being mixed with people with XY chromosome (men). 

The debate is all over in the West,(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8nViKYmEhU&feature=share)  and I'm just asking if SI please would stop bringing politic into the game. You are of course welcome to disagree.
But please don't misrepresent what I'm saying, it's not okay.
  

[FrazT]

You have indicated that you have raised this not to start a debate or that you care about other's opinions and that is fine.  You asked SI to take note of your request and that has been done.  SI have always and will continue to take note of the views of the community but the final decision on what is included in the game is theirs and theirs alone.

This thread is developing into a discussion a long way from FM, so I will close it.