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slipperyjohns

Hoffenheim & Julian Nagelsmann's 3-1-4-2

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Hi @slipperyjohns, really like your opening post.

I'm a relative novice when it comes to tactics, and like you tried playing with two strikers. Initially had the same as you with an AF/TM combo, which was to accommodate a target man in my side, but having watched the build up play in several matches, it was very one dimensional play centered around the TM. I changed the role to DLF(s), which had the same style i was trying to play but with less emphasis on him which led to more varied attacks. I don't know if it was solely down to role change, but I was a lot happier with what i was seeing.

Hope that's understandable, and good luck going forward with your game.

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Looks like a good recreation to me. I wouldn't use 'Defend Narrower'. The back 5 will compress the spaces well enough and I'd actually go for the opposite 'Defend Wider' to encourage Demirbay and Grillitsch to help out on the wings. I'd also add 'Counter' when possession is won to make use of the direct aggressive approach.

If I remember correctly Hübner and Vogt are not the quickest so the high line could be dangerous. So maybe look into getting quicker CBs. Not sure how the midfield trio will work in FM, but only watching the games will tell you that. Other than that, the setup looks good and close to what Nagelsmann is doing. Good job!

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8 hours ago, TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos said:

Hi @slipperyjohns, really like your opening post.

I'm a relative novice when it comes to tactics, and like you tried playing with two strikers. Initially had the same as you with an AF/TM combo, which was to accommodate a target man in my side, but having watched the build up play in several matches, it was very one dimensional play centered around the TM. I changed the role to DLF(s), which had the same style i was trying to play but with less emphasis on him which led to more varied attacks. I don't know if it was solely down to role change, but I was a lot happier with what i was seeing.

Hope that's understandable, and good luck going forward with your game.

Thanks @TheresOnlyTwoFilipSebos!

Funny you should say that about the target man, I have gone through a similar thought process. 3 games in, I noticed the huge gap between the strikers and the rest of the team. Swapping to a DLF as you said bridged this gap and has resulted in slightly better build up play so far. Top advice.

5 hours ago, BadanieLuck said:

Looks like a good recreation to me. I wouldn't use 'Defend Narrower'. The back 5 will compress the spaces well enough and I'd actually go for the opposite 'Defend Wider' to encourage Demirbay and Grillitsch to help out on the wings. I'd also add 'Counter' when possession is won to make use of the direct aggressive approach.

If I remember correctly Hübner and Vogt are not the quickest so the high line could be dangerous. So maybe look into getting quicker CBs. Not sure how the midfield trio will work in FM, but only watching the games will tell you that. Other than that, the setup looks good and close to what Nagelsmann is doing. Good job!

Thank you @BadanieLuck

That actually makes a lot of sense. I find my wing backs are occupying the opposition wingers and leaving the full backs to put in a lot of crosses. Which must be why we are top of the headers won and completed tables! Having the midfielders pressure them would help out.

589340703_ScreenShot2018-12-21at7_05_44am.thumb.png.c11e4065193f3b2fb6f8f95f15fabd6e.png

Counter sounds like a good idea, I will test it out.

Vogt actually has 18 Pace! Hübner is definitely on the slow side but I do have other CB's that are no slouches.

Update:

Currently sitting 12th with some less than desirable results after 5 games. Losing mostly 1-0, solid defending but creating no chances! Also scoring half out goals off set pieces.

We have the second lowest possession in the league and the lowest 'Chances Created' at a measly 1. (Does this mean Clear Cut Chances?)

 1601211670_ScreenShot2018-12-21at7_06_02am.thumb.png.ff6e57fdb57a6f45ff1aa2568c5bf3f0.png296319994_ScreenShot2018-12-21at7_09_59am.thumb.png.85199901d30f30f6bcebef6175e9e909.png

Hoffenheim have 50%+ avg possession IRL. Thinking of taking off More Direct Passing and letting the natural 'Attacking' mentality of Slightly More Direct Passing take place.

The boys aren't 100% familiar with the tactic yet so I want to let them settle and not chop and change every game.

 

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I wouldn't use counter... The hardest thing about recreating Nagglesmann (apart from instructions to really create his "pendeleffekt" so you will rely on the ME to do this for you) is creating his unique type of attacks. 

When the ball is won they actually play out from the back to give time for the wing backs, cms and strikers to push high up. Then the bpd launches it and they try and get bodies around the target man. 

In terms of your roles... Spot on, I did try this last year and came up with virtually the same (though I succumb to the temptation of DLP/REG as my launch button... Primarily to help slow it down at the back before the first direct pass was made) 

Nagglesmann is my fav current manager so good luck. Be interested to see some follow up analysis. 

I couldn't get the distinct separation of defence and attack units during the transition from defence to attack in possession... And couldn't get the aggressive press from one wb leaving the other 4 defenders slip into a solid 4. So essentially it ended up playing as an orthodox 532 with no identity. 

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What are the players instructions regarding your midfielders, pressing- wise? Does the urgent pressing drags your mids from their positions in a way that it upsets your defensive balance?

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Hi @slipperyjohns !

I like this kind of tactic and I played with a 3-5-2 since FM2015.

But on this FM2018, I face some difficulties to implement the 'pendeleffekt '.

That is to say, my 2 wingbacks do not press the opposite wingback. They both stay back and wait the winger has the ball to press him.

So, this is often the Mezzala who press the opposite wingback and It's not  what I want.

I tried to put both wing back on midfield, but they do not come back when the ball is on the other side. I also tried various instructions without success for now.

 

In your  Nagelsmann's tactic, does the pendeleffekt work well?
 

Thanks for your post!

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On 21/12/2018 at 16:55, westy8chimp said:

I wouldn't use counter... The hardest thing about recreating Nagglesmann (apart from instructions to really create his "pendeleffekt" so you will rely on the ME to do this for you) is creating his unique type of attacks. 

When the ball is won they actually play out from the back to give time for the wing backs, cms and strikers to push high up. Then the bpd launches it and they try and get bodies around the target man. 

In terms of your roles... Spot on, I did try this last year and came up with virtually the same (though I succumb to the temptation of DLP/REG as my launch button... Primarily to help slow it down at the back before the first direct pass was made) 

Nagglesmann is my fav current manager so good luck. Be interested to see some follow up analysis. 

I couldn't get the distinct separation of defence and attack units during the transition from defence to attack in possession... And couldn't get the aggressive press from one wb leaving the other 4 defenders slip into a solid 4. So essentially it ended up playing as an orthodox 532 with no identity. 

I'm 12 games into the season now and still heavily experimenting. Having researched a bit more, I see what you mean about playing out from the back and having a bit more of a patient build up. Perhaps I will add Play Out  Of Defence and Pass Into Space?

I also added the DLP-D. Instead of the DM laying off an 8 yard pass, the DLP will actively look to play a long diagonal to the wing backs!

I 100% agree with your comment on the pendeleffekt. @rouflaquettes31 I am having the same issues as you. The full backs just do not want to press high, meaning my central midfielders are dragged out wide to do it. I have tried pressing OI's on wingers and full backs, PI's on the full backs to press more urgently and changing their duties, nothing works.

The wing backs are then somewhat 'wasted' in the press, just sitting there waiting for the winger to get past the centre mid before moving. 

So no, the pendeleffekt does not work well! Perhaps it's jut impossible to replicate? I also might try the Wide-Midfielder role..

On 21/12/2018 at 18:54, Hunter T said:

What are the players instructions regarding your midfielders, pressing- wise? Does the urgent pressing drags your mids from their positions in a way that it upsets your defensive balance?

Yes, they are dragged extremely wide to press either the full back or winger/inside forward. I still have the cover of the DLP-D though screening the defence.

I'm trying to fiddle with instructions to get my wing backs to press the opposition wide men up high to limit this.. but no luck as yet!

Update:

12 games in, sitting 8th and knocked out the UEFA Champions League. 

We finally had an emphatic win. Defeating Stuttgart 4-1 and creating 6 clear cut chances. Unfortunately these types of games are few and far in-inbetween!

591016225_ScreenShot2018-12-21at11_36_24am.thumb.png.c89d31ece0da16729a56708f5f6a46a4.png1198971993_ScreenShot2018-12-21at11_38_42am.thumb.png.595fa9d97db7a4756666bc8dda578805.png

It is interesting to see Nagelsmann's Profile actually, as it lends an insight into some of his tactical tendencies and what I am trying to re-create!

1072753551_ScreenShot2018-12-23at3_43_19pm.thumb.png.e6eed89e665f4f583c64d75f40f1ff37.png

If I went with all of his 'Tends To' options, my team instructions would look quite a bit different..

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On 23/12/2018 at 06:26, slipperyjohns said:

The full backs just do not want to press high, meaning my central midfielders are dragged out wide to do it. I have tried pressing OI's on wingers and full backs, PI's on the full backs to press more urgently and changing their duties, nothing works.

The wing backs are then somewhat 'wasted' in the press, just sitting there waiting for the winger to get past the centre mid before moving

I logically suppose (though cannot claim for sure) that your WBs aren't pressing as high up the pitch as you would like them to because they don't want to leave the flanks completely exposed, especially given that you are using both CMs as attacking mezzalas. So if the WBs pressed too much, who would cover defensively for the MEZs once the opposition won the ball and launched a counter-attack? If this is the case, then I think your WBs are actually making the right decision. Of course, it's also quite possible that the current ME is simply set to work in that way. Btw, when it comes to pressing (and other defensive duties), each position has its own zone (area) of responsibility, meaning they will probably be unwilling to start pressing until the ball reaches their zone.

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You’d have to rework the midfield roles probably, but you could try using defensive wingers. I believe pressing opposing fullbacks is in their job description. I’ve never really used them so I’m not guaranteeing it’d work. 

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I'm trying to replicate him since FM18 and still have to make a lot of concessions. Hoffenheim like build sloly from the back (last season they was one of the top bundesliga teams in this stat), but is very fast, direct and effective when decide to attack. Another thing they do a lot and I can't replicate without keep changing TIs every five minutes of the game is slow down the game when in attack, keeping the ball and going back to defense to lure the adversary defensive line forward and open space for the runners.

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2 hours ago, marcorigobelli said:

I'm trying to replicate him since FM18 and still have to make a lot of concessions. Hoffenheim like build sloly from the back (last season they was one of the top bundesliga teams in this stat), but is very fast, direct and effective when decide to attack. Another thing they do a lot and I can't replicate without keep changing TIs every five minutes of the game is slow down the game when in attack, keeping the ball and going back to defense to lure the adversary defensive line forward and open space for the runners.

Play a high mentality and a super low tempo and high time wasting. That should do it

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About "pendeleffekt": did you try your wingbacks in the fullback positions?

In FM17 fullbacks with much more closing down worked well.

Following some screenshots from an old save of mine, using a 5311:

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Edited by MrSloth
*bad spelling

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Hi @MrSloth.

Do you mean that put the wing back in a lower position works better?

Indeed, in your screeshot, the defensive shape is good.

I will try it to see the difference.

 

thanks, happy new year!

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2 ore fa, rouflaquettes31 ha scritto:

Hi @MrSloth.

Do you mean that put the wing back in a lower position works better?

Indeed, in your screeshot, the defensive shape is good.

I will try it to see the difference.

 

thanks, happy new year!

Right! I mean, at least in FM17. I haven't played FM18 and FM19 (not yet, hopefully...) because of my outdated laptop.

Cheers!

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hello I am playing 3-5-2 with cardif in season one and I am chalenging for title even I am not happy at all.

 

Defending is big isue also my midfilders are not supply enough trough balls for my strikers.

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8 hours ago, Meraklija Vujevic said:

hello I am playing 3-5-2 with cardif in season one and I am chalenging for title even I am not happy at all.

 

Defending is big isue also my midfilders are not supply enough trough balls for my strikers.

If you've managed to get our dreadful team challenging for the title in the first season and you're unhappy then you should probably stop playing FM lol. 

 

Post your set-up. What signings have you made? Our defence is very slow and lack mental attributes whilst our midfielders are battlers and not so creative anyway.

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Le 02/01/2019 à 13:01, MrSloth a dit :

Right! I mean, at least in FM17. I haven't played FM18 and FM19 (not yet, hopefully...) because of my outdated laptop.

Cheers!

Hi!

 

I made a lot of tests (very much) with my wingbacks and the team to have pendeleffekt (tighter marking, close down more, mark the opposite fullback, replace by defensive winger, change mentality, and so on).

1st : Put them on fullback position is not efficient. They stay back and form a 5 man defensive line.

2nd  : no solution idoes want I want. The best I find is :

Wingback-Attack with close down much more

Center midfielders with Mark tighter to force them stay in the center area

+ Positive mentality

But I neglected an important parameter : the player level and his knowledge of the tactic/duty!

I noticed a better behaviour with good level player. Indeed, a good positioning/decision/marking is better!

 

If someone has a better solution I will take it!

But I think wingback is the good position.

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Posted (edited)

I have been tinkering a bit, and this style is quite hard to replicate. I decided to add a couple of PPMs to get the style I'm looking for.

I went "full Nagelsmann" and used the Hoffenheim squad for this experiment, and ended up with a tactic with a lot of TIs, PIs and OIs. I usually follow the KISS-rule (Keep It Simple, Stupid), but found it difficult to succeed without all the instructions. I am currently fourth in Bundesliga with my set up: a 3-3-2-2 (3-5-2/5-3-2, whatever you call it). Didn't create a lot of chances in the beginning, but the more the players played with each other, the better the attack became. The defence has been great all season. My record is 10-2-4 with losses against Bayern, Dortmund, Hannover and Leipzig. 21-11 in goal difference. I also won my CL group, with wins against Barcelona, Porto and Ludogorets.

Some instructions may seem contradictory.

***************

The fullbacks/wingers are the hardest to get right. They actually do the pendulum-thing when they are in both the FB-strata, and the WB-strata. I don't really see an issue with the defending, it was their movement when in possession that was the hardest to get right. Kadebarek/Brenet on the right and Schultz/Zuber on the left stay wide and don't rush up the field during build up, to be a passing outlet for the three defensemen. When reaching the final third, they are a crossing threat or underlap to attack the box. That is hard to make them do! I tested around with some instructions and PPMs and I'm satisfied with their play now.

***************

TACTIC


SKs - Baumann is doing some sweeping, and play it short to the five defensemen.

 


CDd - Posch, Bicakcic, Hubner, Akpoguma and Adams fill this role. I gave them the PPM to Play it short if possible, since I couldn't get them high pass completion numbers. In real life, Hoffenheims centre backs have 90% completion rate.

Ls - This is Vogt. He drops deep when defending, sweeping up balls, and carry the ball out of defence when in possession. He can hit bullet through balls to the strikers as well.

CDd - Posch, Bicakcic, Hubner, Akpoguma and Adams fill this role. Same as above.

 


IWBs - Kadebarek/Brenet on the right. The Inverted Wing Back may sound wrong, but this is the only way I could get them to cross less, and underlap/overlap depending on the situation. I want to create my chances down the middle, and make the wing backs to run inside without the ball if the more central players are going wide. The Inverted Wing Backs are only going inside if they have a player in front of them, and since we are playing with one wide player to begin with, they often keep the width. Added PIs: Less Risky Passes (I want to hold possession, and make them cross less), Press Much More (to make them step up and engage), Ease Off Tackles (according to stats, he rarely slide into tackles) and Dribble More (read it somewhere, the wing backs are allowed to). I added the PPMs Run With The Ball On The Right Flank, Move into Channels, Arrive Late into the Box and Hug the Touchline to get the wing backs to move like I want them to. They were way too predictable before that.

DLPd - Florian Grillitsch is usually playing here. He is a ball winner who can make plays, and is holding the position in front of the three man back line when in possession, so we can retain the ball. I added Close Down Less to make him anchor the midfield.

IWBs - Kadebarek/Brenet on the right. Same as above.

 

 

MEZs - Bittencourt/Hack/Amiri etc. Several players have been used here. They drift wide to overload the wide areas, and sometimes run in behind the strikers. They are always a threat, due to their long distance shooting. Nagelsmann has his team shooting a lot, sometimes due to their poor ability to lock up deep defences. I added Tighter Marking and Close Down Less (to keep them centrally, they still close down the wings though), Dribble More and Run Wide With The Ball (to push them even wider in possession) as well as Shoot More Often. 

MEZa - Often Demirbay, who I gave the PPMs to Move into Channels. It is amazing to watch him connect well with the strikers and wing backs in attack. He also has the same PIs as the MEZs. 

 

 

CFa - Kramaric is my go to guy here. I want the strikers to roam a lot, and drift wide sometimes as well. He is also told to Shoot More Often, and to Play Shorter Passes. I gave him the PPMs to Drop Deep, Move Into Channels and Get Into The Penalty Box. 

AFa - Belfodil/Joelinton, running around creating havoc in behind the defence. 

 

 

Team Instructions: Balanced Mentality (Still vertical enough, but since I want possession, I decided to go for Balanced. Then I can tweak it during games, I like to have options)

Wide offensive width, Much shorter passing, Overlap both flanks, Exploit the middle, Build from the back, Work ball into box, Higher tempo, Challenge Defense and Be more expressive.

Goalkeeper is playing to the centre backs or wing backs.

Use offside trap, much higher line of engagement and defensive line, Tighter marking, More urgent closing down and Prevent short kicks from GK.

 

OIs: Closing Down GK and all the wide players, as well as the three CDMs.

 

***************

 

For Nagelsmann, man management is key. Keep the players happy, and rotate the squad. Nagelsmann use all of his players. He is also not actively looking to counter, so I didn't check the Counter Attack option. We still counter when we can though, since we have our two strikers high up the field. Same with counter press. I didn't select it, but we still try to get the ball back when possible, much like Hoffenheim in real life. It also gives me the option to change during the game, or depending on opposition. Nagelsmann is always adapting to the team he's playing against. Don't be lazy and just plug and play.

I haven't put any effort into set pieces, but Hoffenheim are good at it. You can probably squeeze out a couple of more points if you have a good routine. 

Variations: Play 3-1-4-2 with the wing backs in the midfield strata, or 5-3-2 with them further back. You can also move the DLPd to the AM strata, and play a DLP instead of one of the Mezzalas. Nagelsmann also use a 3-4-3-formation, with one striker and two withdrawn ones. The striker drop deep and the AMs run in behind. 

I want a 80-90% pass completion, and a 50-55% possession, as well as 15-20 shots per game. It's hard, but I think it's decent now.

Edited by golden-goose

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