4-1-4-1 frustrating!!

[bdixon]

Hello all

 

At the moment I’m finding this version of the game somewhat frustrating and I’m having big problems trying to create a tactic which provides with the style of football I want and would love the help from the community to point me in the right direction.

 

I would say my preferred style of football would be based on Sarri, possession based but not for possession sake. I would like to see, if possible, little triangles of one-two passing before a possible through ball which would lead to a goal scoring chance.

 

My current setup 4-1-4-1/4-3-3 consists of the following:

 

DLF(S)

AP(S)           IF(A)

 

        MZ(S)BBM(S)

        DLP(D)

WB(A)CB(D)CB(D)WB(S)

 

Team Instructions

Positive 

 

Play out of defence

 

Counter Press

Counter

 

High defence line

Standard LOE

Urgent Pressing

 

Regularly my front 3 get low ratings and aren’t scoring or getting involved as much as I would like. Does the community have any advice how I can create a style of football which is enjoyable to watch?

 

Thanks in advance

[TESURAS]

I don't know about your players, their PPM etc, therefore what i going to say below is purely theoretical. 

By looking at your player duties, I find there are too little players attacking the box. APs will be sitting to pass the ball, B2B will probably sometimes go in the box but most of the times he will be looking for long shot chances. DLFS will drop back and contribute to the build up play. This leaves your IFA alone to attack the box. Probably change your DLF to attack duty or change it to CFA will help.

[Johnny Ace]

You might wanna ditch the WB's, they ain't gonna Sarri-Ball, they're going to be picking up the ball & looking to run with it & cross 

[summatsupeer]

Firstly do you have the players able to perform that style?

Secondly, if you want a starting point Vertical Tiki-Taka is the devs interpretation of Sarri.

If want to develop your tactic a few examples of things you don't like would be helpful.

[robot_skeleton]

5 hours ago, bdixon said:

Hello all

 

At the moment I’m finding this version of the game somewhat frustrating and I’m having big problems trying to create a tactic which provides with the style of football I want and would love the help from the community to point me in the right direction.

 

I would say my preferred style of football would be based on Sarri, possession based but not for possession sake. I would like to see, if possible, little triangles of one-two passing before a possible through ball which would lead to a goal scoring chance.

 

My current setup 4-1-4-1/4-3-3 consists of the following:

 

DLF(S)

AP(S)           IF(A)

 

        MZ(S)BBM(S)

        DLP(D)

WB(A)CB(D)CB(D)WB(S)

 

Team Instructions

Positive 

 

Play out of defence

 

Counter Press

Counter

 

High defence line

Standard LOE

Urgent Pressing

 

Regularly my front 3 get low ratings and aren’t scoring or getting involved as much as I would like. Does the community have any advice how I can create a style of football which is enjoyable to watch?

 

Thanks in advance

Well, you did not write any other TI, so I guess these are the ones you're using. You use pretty aggressive roles, plus a positive mentality, do your players choose simple, short passes or not? 4-1-4-1 is a pretty difficult formation, so it' okay that you're struggling btw, tell us more about the tactic!

[bdixon]

5 hours ago, TESURAS said:

I don't know about your players, their PPM etc, therefore what i going to say below is purely theoretical. 

By looking at your player duties, I find there are too little players attacking the box. APs will be sitting to pass the ball, B2B will probably sometimes go in the box but most of the times he will be looking for long shot chances. DLFS will drop back and contribute to the build up play. This leaves your IFA alone to attack the box. Probably change your DLF to attack duty or change it to CFA will help.

Ok, I'll make a few changes based on these suggestions. I'm thinking maybe a CM(A) would be a nice addition.

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

You might wanna ditch the WB's, they ain't gonna Sarri-Ball, they're going to be picking up the ball & looking to run with it & cross 

So if I want a role which offers an overlap for a potential crossing situation which role would you advise?

5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Firstly do you have the players able to perform that style?

Secondly, if you want a starting point Vertical Tiki-Taka is the devs interpretation of Sarri.

If want to develop your tactic a few examples of things you don't like would be helpful.

I think I have players more than capable to perform the style of football I so desire. 

I'm at home now, so made a few changes based on advice and personal thoughts which I think may help. Here it is in its current form. I'll play a few games to see how it all pans out.

[bdixon]

1st game vs Bologna at home went rather well. A 3-0 win with some decent football played.

My DLF Gouri had a quiet game 13 passes 10 completed. He did have 4 shots of which 1 was on target. Something to watch for. On a positive Dolberg who came on for him after 63 did score with 2/2 shots on target.

My CM(A) was really involved much, only 26 passes and 1 shot.

[bdixon]

What would be the best role in my midfield to accommodate this player to his full potential?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, bdixon said:

What would be the best role in my midfield to accommodate this player to his full potential?

There are two roles in a CM position that IMO would suit him best - APM on attack and RPM. But for any role to work, it needs to fit well into the overall tactic. So it would be a wrong idea to just assign this player to an "ideal" role without taking into account how the rest of your system would affect it.

Edit: he can also be a pretty good mezzala.

[bdixon]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

There are two roles in a CM position that IMO would suit him best - APM on attack and RPM. But for any role to work, it needs to fit well into the overall tactic. So it would be a wrong idea to just assign this player to an "ideal" role without taking into account how the rest of your system would affect it.

well the tactic is the one I post a few up

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, bdixon said:

well the tactic is the one I post a few up

And what was his position/role/duty in that tactic? (because there are no player names in the screenshot)

[bdixon]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

And what was his position/role/duty in that tactic? (because there are no player names in the screenshot)

sorry he was being played in the CM(A) role

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, bdixon said:

sorry he was being played in the CM(A) role

Well, in that particular setup of roles and duties, I'd also play him as CM-A (MCL). But if I was to build a tactic around him, then it would look somewhat (if not very much) different.

[summatsupeer]

I'd say the DLF-A in that setup isn't meant to get lots of touches. He's meant to be a threat with his runs and occupying the CBs, he's not dropping and linking so should get lots of touches.

How does the CM-A combine with the IF-S outside of him and the DLF-A playing more on the shoulder? Could customising the CM-A role a little add to his game? Don't just go ticking stuff though, need to see instances where you'd rather him do something different. He plays one-twos but does he have player available to act as the wall?

[BigV]

I don't mean to take this away from @bdixon but i'm struggling with a very similar type of way/roles and same formation. Im finding the BBM role is more attacking but when defending and more defensive when attacking which really grinds on me as you want it to do the opposite of that. It really hinders the front 3 when using BBM. Striker role has a few problems so dont worry too much about the movement cause what you expect doesn't happen usually. Any help to either of us can be translated for both as its pretty similar in the way i want to play. It's pretty much how Madrid play with Zidane- A bit of everything: quick passing, crosses, through balls, balls behind defence, runners like bale and ronaldo coming into the middle and shooting deep or further forward, supporting mids that go into the box and that lurk outside (modric type) etc. 

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, BigV said:

Im finding the BBM role is more attacking but when defending and more defensive when attacking which really grinds on me as you want it to do the opposite of that

I would rather assume your BBM is a quite intelligent player who is looking to position himself in such a way as to offset the vulnerability of your left flank, which is caused by having both wide players on attack duty 

[bdixon]

I’m trying something new and want to know if people have had much joy with 2xIF(A) with the F9 up top, or is it considered too one dimensional?

[BigV]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would rather assume your BBM is a quite intelligent player who is looking to position himself in such a way as to offset the vulnerability of your left flank, which is caused by having both wide players on attack duty 

What do you mean? it's fed or cook, both fairly intelligent and more a playmaker but overall great. I usually have 2 inside forwards and have done in past FM's, i was testing using lingard as a winger and doesn't work great, barely gets passed too. 

 

1 hour ago, bdixon said:

I’m trying something new and want to know if people have had much joy with 2xIF(A) with the F9 up top, or is it considered too one dimensional?

Theoretically it would work, liverpool are a great example of this but the striker role is ishy rn because they don't play deep/CAM area, they tend to act like adv forwards but you could always try it. I usually used 2 IF's on attack with a complete forward support deep lying support. worked before but only on certain teams, try it at home a lot. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, BigV said:

What do you mean?

You complained in the previous post that your BBM is "defensive" when you attack and "attacking" when you defend. I tried to explain you that he actually seems to be intelligent, because by playing in such a way he is probably looking to protect your left flank which is defensively vulnerable because you put both the LB (Shaw) and AML (Rashford) on attack duty. So if the BBM (Cook in the screenshot) appears to be "defensive" when your team is attacking, I suppose he has good reason for that. 

[BigV]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You complained in the previous post that your BBM is "defensive" when you attack and "attacking" when you defend. I tried to explain you that he actually seems to be intelligent, because by playing in such a way he is probably looking to protect your left flank which is defensively vulnerable because you put both the LB (Shaw) and AML (Rashford) on attack duty. So if the BBM (Cook in the screenshot) appears to be "defensive" when your team is attacking, I suppose he has good reason for that. 

Ahhh right, I get you. so he's more a covering player. I did play about 5 games today and saw that the update really changed some roles to be more precise like playmakers, complete forward and to some extent the ball playing defenders. My BBM fred/cook saw the effects after swapping at half time showing that each had their own "role" in sense of attack and defend when with or without the ball, fred was more a presser and helped alot more in attacks, cook was more or less as you said, the cover between that left side and to recycle. I really "cook-ed" up when i could've got milinkovic savic for a similar price lol

[bdixon]

At this moment in time I'm not overly confident going into any game with any tactic. The ME just seems so random and biased towards to AI that you could imply there is scripting involved however since that is a controversial topic I won't bite too much.

Currently using this trying my best to create overloads.

Now the TI's I'm using are:

Shorting passing - I want possession, I want to control the game.
Pass into space - To help create more through ball opportunities, which I am very rarely seeing.
Play out of defense - To help with possession numbers

Is anyone having any success with a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-3 however you want to call it?

[BigV]

2 minutes ago, bdixon said:

At this moment in time I'm not overly confident going into any game with any tactic. The ME just seems so random and biased towards to AI that you could imply there is scripting involved however since that is a controversial topic I won't bite too much.

Currently using this trying my best to create overloads.

Now the TI's I'm using are:

Shorting passing - I want possession, I want to control the game.
Pass into space - To help create more through ball opportunities, which I am very rarely seeing.
Play out of defense - To help with possession numbers

Is anyone having any success with a 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-3 however you want to call it?

I've had some great success although i've stopped at december in game as I havent had the time to play. I've noticed a lot of people wanting to play possession football is to play at "slightly low tempo" which in theoretical terms makes sense but in reality what stops making chances and becomes the "lvg" type of football. 

In my save I wanted to balance the possession so around 55% is average for me to make the most of what we get. So when I lose possession we win it back under a compact shape where there's little room to move through so pushing wide which generally works against me but they never have enough quality... then I can counter with quick pace from IF's and ADV forward to hit wide/above/around the defence- balance between possession and counter is my new system in this fm19 which I was forced to make as the ME doesn't work for my original plan.

GK-D

Wingbacks-Support

CD- defend/ BPD-defend

DM- Deep lying on defend

BBM/ball winner- support (Ball winner for big games)

AP- Attack 

IF'S- one on support and other on attack- change through games and on odd occasions. 

ADV forward/ Complete forward- attack/support. 

IP: Overlap both sides, pass into space, be expressive, high tempo

IT: Counter press, counter

OP: Higher defensive line, standard line of engagement (some reason keeps my defence tight and when I counter players like rashford/lukaku and IF's make dangerous passes as it draws opposition defences defensive line pretty high regardless if they sit back or counter- which makes this work perfectly for some unknown reason as i thought it was a tool to make each part separate rather than effect the overall play)

I do have a lack of central play and usually goes wide, I do have good/special players as i'm managing United, but in previous ME versions i was struggling, the long shot bug is somewhat an advantage for me cause the likes of pogba, periera, herrera/cook/fred can shoot long and usually do really well. However, my LW is ishy rn as they don't score but create for some reason, same with my RW but that's because mata is useful as a creator.