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Mitja

Players' Turning Issues

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this issue is long term, i uploaded it like a month ago with no answer and it still seems not to be looked at. in general it takes far too long for simple move like turning around 180 to happen. any healthy person does in in blink of an eye. i have noticed this strangebehaviour to be annoying down the line when usually winger or IF takes fet too long to turn around and pass the ball back and in 99% he looses the ball totally unnecessarily. but i never thought it has greater influence on player vision and passing decisions. here's what anozher member (Mensel76) noticed and i think he could well be right: 

The main issue that has been dominating all ME's so far, the lack of central play, still persists.  And it could very well come from two totally different issues than lack of attacking movement and I kindly like to ask your opinions on it:

1. central midfielders when receiving the ball from players lower on the pitch never make a full turn before passing the ball. They either face to ball passer and pass the ball back or turn 1/2 to 3/4 of the clock which means: sidepasses or pass deeper into the wing. Even when there is plenty of room or time to fully turn open and see all players in front of him in the central parts of the pitch, the central midfielder just does not fully turn. For creative midfielders with great first touch it is so important to make a full open turn to see all the attacking options and to be able to actually give a central through ball. But all ME'sin FM19 so far just do not let them. 

2. The new/better ball physics with the added curl also seems to hamper straight forward through balls. Because even when a player does receive the ball with his face towards the goal of the opponent he often opts for a curling pass that has a tendency to go wider, instead of weighing the options what sort of pass needs to be given. It seems SI wanted to show of the enhanced ball physics a tad too much 

These two things (mostly 1 though) results in a spread of passes by my AMC as shown in the added picture. Even the few forward passes by my AMC all go to the sides. It really seems that the inability of players (further up the pitch) to make a full open turn when receiving the ball is the culprit here.  

Due to the lack of full open turns, having settings like "pass into space" on or "work ball into box" are also counter productive. With the first leading to poor passes deep into the Wings and the second, due to its patient nature, resulting in even more wingplay.

If I find some more time I will surely open a thread on it but the amount of examples during build up play in which our central players have all time in the world to  make a full open turn but instead are just making a 1/2 to 3/4 turn (which leads them facing the Wings again) are staggering. If someone has the time already to a) examine on full match what I am saying here b) agrees with my findings and c) has time to start documenting it I would very much welcome it. 

 

- 36:52 example of when West Ham #14 player could turn around quicker. maybe not the best one.

- 37:58 example of how long it takes for player just #15 to turn. it should happen in blink of an eye.

- 69:39 good example how long it takes #41 to trun around.

 

West Ham v Leicester 2.pkm

Edited by Mitja

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@Mitja

You are fantastic. Thanks for opening this thread with actual examples. As a father of two I sometimes lack time to test the game,  give actual feedback on it and collecting all examples. So today on the general feedback forum of the public beta I first choose to put my thoughts into writing to see how my fellow beta members are experiencing the turning open issue.

The turning issues hurts center play a lot. And often it is not a matter of not turning quickly enough, but really not turning completely (180). In that regard perhaps you could alter the thread title to:

Player turning issues 

Please also look out for examples in central midfield where players have space to fully turn but instead make a 1/2 or 3/4 turn resulting in (unnecassary) wide play. It usually happens during build up after a central midfielders receive a ball from the dc's or dl/dr. Of course if you play with an mc playmaker, focus on him.

Thanks again mate!

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thread title changed. if you have time just post pkm and times here, you already have everything explained in detail. cheers.

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i think player's positioning - facing towards team-mate should have far less influence on spoting the pass since humans use their neck which extends vision horizont for 180 degress (even more). basically all players should easily spot all passing options within 180 degrees in given body position.

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44 minutes ago, Mitja said:

i think player's positioning - facing towards team-mate should have far less influence on spoting the pass since humans use their neck which extends vision horizont for 180 degress (even more). basically all players should easily spot all passing options within 180 degrees in given body position.

Agreed but between spotting options and physically being able to give the pass seems to be a gap in the ME. Either the turn is not 180 or there is just , as you prove and I concur, too much lingering on turning. The turn needs to be made in order to give the pass.

Most professional players IRL can turn open fully fluently when not being put under pressure. In FM midfield  players mostly receive and start controlling the ball from a defender faced towards him. A high First touch does not seem to help players in quickly turning open in one fluent move.

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3 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

Most professional players IRL can turn open fully fluently when not being put under pressure. In FM midfield  players mostly receive and start controlling the ball from a defender faced towards him. A high First touch does not seem to help players in quickly turning open in one fluent move.

agreed. it's should take them a blink of an eye to do that. they need far too much time now to turn. even under pressure top quality player make ''first touch dribble'' often, that's what seperates Messis, Hazards, Neymars from others, today football is so quick, one-two's at full speed from own area to penalty box and when you try to compare it to this turning issue in FM...

 

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 @SI, please investigate the first touch and turning of players. In my eyes it is the root of all evil when it comes to lack of central play.

I have uploaded a match from FM18: Liverpool v Wolves (FM18 Mensell76).

The huge difference in FM18 compared to FM19 is how players receive the ball. Please watch at 61.14 , prior to the 6-0 how De Ligt passes the ball to Arthur and how quickly and very realistically Arthur turns fully open . Where has this move gone in the ME of FM19?  Arthur then passes the ball to Savic Milonkovic who also already faces the goal when receiving the ball and is immediately capable of giving the through ball. Now this is basically all that is lacking in FM19. 

Having an open vision towards the goal when receiving the ball with a quicker first touch and a quicker full turn is so important. The lack of this really is causing most attacking movement to be futile since the passes are not being given.

Look at picture below from another match in FM18. Arthur is fully open and immediately gives the perfect pass to Keita.

FM18 is full of this because the first touch and controlling of the ball is being done a lot more facing forward instead of facing sidewards or facin back. FM18 shows so much more dynamics in terms of attacking play and linking passes to off the ball forward runs, the difference currently is day and night.

I am almost certain you need to look at this area of the ME SI. 

 

Liverpool v Wolves (FM18 Mensell76).pkm

Open view midfielder.jpg

Edited by Mensell76

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SI, I have uploaded a match to your cloud called:

R. Madrid v TSG Hoffenheim (ME1920 Mensell76).pkm

Examples of poor turning and controlling the ball mostly focusing on central midfielders with enough room to fully turn open to have full vision of the players and space in front of them (which worked so well in FM18). These examples are not about through balls not being given but about time consuming or faced the wrong directions turns of midfielders having a negative effect on off the ball movement because passes that could be given in a forward, central direction are not given. 

1.59: Modric (DLP/S) has all the time to turn open fully and choose a forward passing option

4.52 Isco (APM/S) has the time to start turning open while he receives the ball from Casemiro. Instead he controls the ball facing Casemiro and turns half open resulting in the typical sidepass

5.08-5.21 Modric receives ball and walks towards Ramos while he has all time to turn open. He passes to Isco (why is the other midfielder on top of him) who on his turn could easily now face the goal but opts for Casemiro who goes wide while he also could choose central passing near the goal again. Such a poor sequence this is by world class players in this game

7.12 Isco receives the ball , should immediately spot the run of Benzema and perhaps go for it. Instead look at the choice and execution of the sidepass!?

7.25 This time Isco turns open, dribbles a bit and then again look at that atrocious pass. Which Real Madrid player might he be seeing in front of him?? This is amateur league football at best.

8.05 Modric receives the ball facing the goal and seein his three attackers. Modric has a slow negative ball controle turning to the side. He is under no pressure here.

8.15 Isco receives the ball and should turn open to his left to see Asensio. Instead he dribbles into the 5 defenders. The turning and first touch in FM19 is so incredibly slow that it seems like all players take into account "hmmm I can not make that turn in 1 second so I will go either back or start a weird dribble"

9.58 Casemiro receives the ball facing the goal and Bale is the Obvious deeper passing option which might create some real dange. Instead Casemiro lingers on the ball and passes wide again

After 10 minutes I stopped watching the full match and went for parts of the match to see if there was a difference. In the meantime I have altered the tempo from lower to high to see if that has a positive effect:

17.35 As stated in the 8.15: Isco receives the ball withouth any opponent close on his own half. He should turn open immediately instead he looks like a car with a turning circle of 20 meters. 

37.00 Modric receives the ball while he faces the left flank and he should see his options there, instead starts controlling the ball again facing the ball passer. This really seems to be the key element in all FM19 ME's: players receiving the ball from behind are controlling the ball faced towards the ball passer

37.54 Isco should anticipate here on the pass given by Casemiro and turn open already to be able to pass to Bale who is in a good attacking position. But look at this choice of passing again. Is this a world class playmaker?

Just a few examples in a match that is littered with poor turning and slow first touch on the ball. If the midfield is not capable of acceleraring play a lot of the off the ball movement by our attackers is useless. And as a result of the forward pass not being given the attackers end up to deep too early much of the time, leaving wideplay as the only real option to reach the final third.

Now this is incredibly time consuming, so I kindly welcome other contributors to add examples from their tactics and teams as well. Please look out for your midfield three in any setting or tactic not accelerating play centrally due to the lack of turning and lingering on the first touch.

Cheers!

 

 

R. Madrid v TSG Hoffenheim (ME1920 Mensell76).pkm

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Just watching a real life match between Ajax and a deeplying defensive ADO, makes me realise how unrealistic ball control and turning in the ME is currently.

Without direct pressure from an ADO player all Ajax players are turned open facing ADO's goal and thus seeing all available options. It leads to central interplay, even though in real life many possession based passes of course go wide in order to break opponents defense. However in real life central midfielders also tend to stretch the pitch with their off the ball movement a lot more while in FM19 we see constant  funnel movement with players on top of each other. 

What we need:Player A passes the ball slightly in front of player B who is already turned open facing the goal and is able to fluently control the ball while moving forward or making a 1 touch pass. Much like it was in FM18.

In ME1920 even the best players walk towards the ball before receiving it and can 't make fluent turns. 

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Hello,

Thanks for these opinions. We appreciate your attention for detail.

i must say that I agree with you on this. 

IRL midfielders are taught to be on the half turn when receiving the ball.

This allows them to be able to play forward with their first touch, instead of playing sideways/backwards as they cant see whats ahead of them.

But saying all this, your right in the fact that this will be a long term fix. We would of course love to have the players move exactly how they would in real life but this isn't easy.

With the detail and complexity of this issue, we cant promise a fix but it will definitely be raised in discussion for future versions.

Thanks

Jemal 

 

 

 

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@Jemal Wiseman thanks for your reaction. Were you able to check out the fm18 match , 61.14 mark,I posted last saturday. Just curious how come this sort of ball control has vanished this year?

I am not paying attention to things I would like to see new in an ME but to things that you guys were already able to perfectly portray in a previous ME.

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22 minutes ago, Jemal Wiseman said:

This allows them to be able to play forward with their first touch, instead of playing sideways/backwards as they cant see whats ahead of them.

no problem and thanks for reply in another thread.

i don't know if that's any help but this was perfectly working on fm17. also the use of neck and eyes shouldn't prevent them to see in 180 degrees horizont. 

Edited by Mitja

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9 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

@Jemal Wiseman thanks for your reaction. Were you able to check out the fm18 match , 61.14 mark,I posted last saturday. Just curious how come this sort of ball control has vanished this year?

I am not paying attention to things I would like to see new in an ME but to things that you guys were already able to perfectly portray in a previous ME.

Hello,

No, i haven't been able to have a look at the Fm18 PKM you uploaded, but I shall do tomorrow. 

If your still able to play on FM18, would it be possible to upload more examples of this ball control your referring to? So we can have a more in depth look at it.

Thanks

Jemal

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41 minutes ago, Jemal Wiseman said:

Hello,

but I shall do tomorrow.

Please do @Jemal Wiseman it is a vital eye opener and that goal is a testament of the craftmanship SI can deliver.

would it be possible to upload more examples of this ball control your referring to? 

Yes, it is. I will look through my goals and provide more examples asap.

 

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@Jemal Wiseman

As promised more examples taken from my fm18 Liverpool save in which you will see great ball control, turning fully open, facing forward of my creative players, enabling them to make a through ball.

I have added the following 4 matches to your clourservice as well as adding them here:

R. Madrid v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18)

12.00 prior to the 0-1. Look at how Zielinksi receives the ball, turns fully open and gives the through ball

62.33 prior to the 1-4. Now this is just beautiful on so many levels but please focus on the ball control of the players prior to Asensio receiving the ball and then take a special look at Asensio's movement, moving between dc's and mc's, how he then receives the ball fluently turning open and delivering the perfect pass, amazing on all levels from passing to movement to finishing!!

Liverpool v Everton (Mensell76 FM18)

Prior to the 3.0: Look at how Salah receives the ball, makes a perfect open turn and gives that true Salah like pass. Honestly this just looks like the real Salah.

Bournemouth v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18)

Prior to the 0-2: Just look at how the central midfielders receive and control the ball before the goal is scored

Prior to the 0-7: This is how good midfielders who are not under pressure receive the ball and turn open with the ball perfectly at their feet and then in the same instance facing forward. The passes from Zielinksi to Woodburn to Sancho are both perfect examples of what we need in FM19. And also look at how the off the ball movement by Sancho starts as soon as soon as Zielinski has given the pass to Woodburn. This is such beautifully coded extremely smart and realistic movement and all player roles doing exactly what you expect here. In FM19 the Sancho run will never take place because neither of the first two ball controls will happen and Zielinksi would have passed either to Keita or back to Henderson.

87.12 to 87.27 look at this gallery play sequence and the ball passing and controlling by Keita, then Zielinski and then Woodburn. It is ball controlling with the purpose to face forward to build an attack and it ends in the perfect central through ball.

I stated this earlier in this thread: "What we need:Player A passes the ball slightly in front of player B who is already turned open facing the goal and is able to fluently control the ball while moving forward or making a 1 touch pass. "

This is exactly how ball controlling and first touch works in FM18. It is really lifelike.

Chelsea v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18)

50.56 to 51.12: this sequence shows how good and urgent ball control and passing in FM18 can be when under pressure by the opponent and please pay special attention to the turn open movement by Keita. This sequence results in Chelsea winning the ball but it just shows that under pressure a good side as Liverpool with great midfielders can still pass the ball forward and can still turn open. I am merely showing this example to show you the foundation of FM18 ball control.

In FM19 however, I am afraid to say this but you guys just got ballcontrol and turning seriously wrong at the moment. Most of the passes coming from defenders directed at midfielders or attackers are not being controlled with an open turn but are controlled facing the ball passer and after that often a negative slow 1/2 or 3/4 turn follows. The accelerating of play forwards just isn't in the current me's and therefore the fluent off the ball movement that you see in examples above just don't/can't take place. I can't of course prove it for sure but I am having the feeling that a lot of attacking off the ball movement in FM starts when a ball passer behind the attacker receives the ball, turns open and is now facing forwards. This at least seems to be the case in FM18 where off the ball runs into depth by attackers often start when the midfielders on the ball is completely turned open and has full vision of his options. There really seems to be a link there.

Anyways, just some quick examples and another 2 hours have flown by. I am of course willing to post a lot more examples but I am first asking for your/SI reactions  and views on these current examples.

Cheers!

 

Bournemouth v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Liverpool v Everton (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Real Madrid v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Chelsea v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Edited by Mensell76

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30 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

I stated this earlier in this thread: "What we need:Player A passes the ball slightly in front of player B who is already turned open facing the goal and is able to fluently control the ball while moving forward or making a 1 touch pass. "

 

fantastic analysis my friend!! i would like to add to above quote that such accurate passing when the ball is passed perfectly just slightly infront of receiver is what seperates top level football from lower. it's also the reason why you need sufficient player quality for short passing game. when i watch domestic league passing is never as smooth and accurate as top level football, these are small nuances that make huge difference. but you can easily spot the play gets stuck sooner than later. 

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@Johnny Ace

Haha thanks, nice comment. And you should, FM18 is really cheap at the moment and it can produce incredible football :D Granted it took me a while to find the right balance in my tactic to find the room on the pitch for my creative players to shine.

But let's first wait if SI can share some information as to whether they think an ME update can improve on these very serious issues.

 

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On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 22:21, Mensell76 said:

@Jemal Wiseman

As promised more examples taken from my fm18 Liverpool save in which you will see great ball control, turning fully open, facing forward of my creative players, enabling them to make a through ball.

I have added the following 4 matches to your clourservice as well as adding them here:

R. Madrid v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18)

12.00 prior to the 0-1. Look at how Zielinksi receives the ball, turns fully open and gives the through ball

62.33 prior to the 1-4. Now this is just beautiful on so many levels but please focus on the ball control of the players prior to Asensio receiving the ball and then take a special look at Asensio's movement, moving between dc's and mc's, how he then receives the ball fluently turning open and delivering the perfect pass, amazing on all levels from passing to movement to finishing!!

Liverpool v Everton (Mensell76 FM18)

Prior to the 3.0: Look at how Salah receives the ball, makes a perfect open turn and gives that true Salah like pass. Honestly this just looks like the real Salah.

Bournemouth v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18)

Prior to the 0-2: Just look at how the central midfielders receive and control the ball before the goal is scored

Prior to the 0-7: This is how good midfielders who are not under pressure receive the ball and turn open with the ball perfectly at their feet and then in the same instance facing forward. The passes from Zielinksi to Woodburn to Sancho are both perfect examples of what we need in FM19. And also look at how the off the ball movement by Sancho starts as soon as soon as Zielinski has given the pass to Woodburn. This is such beautifully coded extremely smart and realistic movement and all player roles doing exactly what you expect here. In FM19 the Sancho run will never take place because neither of the first two ball controls will happen and Zielinksi would have passed either to Keita or back to Henderson.

87.12 to 87.27 look at this gallery play sequence and the ball passing and controlling by Keita, then Zielinski and then Woodburn. It is ball controlling with the purpose to face forward to build an attack and it ends in the perfect central through ball.

I stated this earlier in this thread: "What we need:Player A passes the ball slightly in front of player B who is already turned open facing the goal and is able to fluently control the ball while moving forward or making a 1 touch pass. "

This is exactly how ball controlling and first touch works in FM18. It is really lifelike.

Chelsea v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18)

50.56 to 51.12: this sequence shows how good and urgent ball control and passing in FM18 can be when under pressure by the opponent and please pay special attention to the turn open movement by Keita. This sequence results in Chelsea winning the ball but it just shows that under pressure a good side as Liverpool with great midfielders can still pass the ball forward and can still turn open. I am merely showing this example to show you the foundation of FM18 ball control.

In FM19 however, I am afraid to say this but you guys just got ballcontrol and turning seriously wrong at the moment. Most of the passes coming from defenders directed at midfielders or attackers are not being controlled with an open turn but are controlled facing the ball passer and after that often a negative slow 1/2 or 3/4 turn follows. The accelerating of play forwards just isn't in the current me's and therefore the fluent off the ball movement that you see in examples above just don't/can't take place. I can't of course prove it for sure but I am having the feeling that a lot of attacking off the ball movement in FM starts when a ball passer behind the attacker receives the ball, turns open and is now facing forwards. This at least seems to be the case in FM18 where off the ball runs into depth by attackers often start when the midfielders on the ball is completely turned open and has full vision of his options. There really seems to be a link there.

Anyways, just some quick examples and another 2 hours have flown by. I am of course willing to post a lot more examples but I am first asking for your/SI reactions  and views on these current examples.

Cheers!

 

Bournemouth v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Liverpool v Everton (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Real Madrid v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Chelsea v Liverpool (Mensell76 FM18).pkm

Hello,

This has been really helpful, thankyou.

There is definitely a significant change in the speed and angle the players are turning at, in your examples.

I agree with you that this could be the reason for the lack of central attacking play. 

We have created a bug which involves your FM18  examples, so hopefully a change can be made.  

Thanks again and great work!

Jemal

 

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This needs to be fixed. Being able to play a short passing game and unlocking defences requires the ability for players to be able to spot the next pass during the half turn while they are receiving one. Like others have stated, this could also solve a lot of other complaints with regards to not being able to play through a low block, centrally.

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This isn't even a big of an issue tbh. It's been the same since FM ever. We have had central play, short passing play and through ball in previous FM versions except for this one. 

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1 hour ago, Amarante said:

This isn't even a big of an issue tbh. It's been the same since FM ever. We have had central play, short passing play and through ball in previous FM versions except for this one. 

And I have demonstrated how the solid and quick turning and first touch in fm18 resulted in easier center play through various examples. So the lack of this in fm19 might actually have a big influence on the lack of centerplay as well.

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3 hours ago, Mensell76 said:

And I have demonstrated how the solid and quick turning and first touch in fm18 resulted in easier center play through various examples. So the lack of this in fm19 might actually have a big influence on the lack of centerplay as well.

Yes but long-standing issues like this mean they are not easy fixes and would probably not be fixed for 19 maybe we might have to look at a brand new ME to even get this one fixed. 

I think it's easier the problem of lack of central play. They introduced defensive width and attacking with as two separate things 

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