Trying to replicate Guardiola system - help

[kurupted]

Hi Guys,

Im new to FM 2019, i used to play the previous versions, but this caught me completely off guard.. New player roles, new training schedule, i needed to adapt asap to get to the game.

So, my question is, and you have probably heard a lot, i want to replicate Pep Guardiola system of Man City into the game.

I will upload a photo of my system, and i want to replicate how Pep plays, so i will start how Man City usually attacks.

The photo with the read dots, is what i want my team to do, my ball playing defenders push up, my defensive Pivot stays a bit down, and my 2 central midfielders, wingers, and striker get into the area, no problem right ? So, how you replicate this into the game ?

The next photo, is my system, how you can see, i use Inverted Wing Backs (different name cause im from Portugal, different language) with support duty, i play with 2 Ball Playing Defenders with defense duty, 1 Defensive Pivot, that stays back when my Central Defenders push up in the field, i play with 2 Mezzalas with attack duty, what i want is exactly what the image with red dots demonstrate, play between spaces, and push in the field, i play with 2 Wingers in attack duty, cause i want them to stretch the opposite formation, forcing full backs to stay with the wingers so Mezzalas can play in that space between Central Defender and Full Backs. And finally i have a False 9, when a team is parking the bus i play with AF with attack duty.

My instructions are in the images. The exact problem of this: how can i dominate a game, 500+ pass, and still win comfortably ? What happens to me is like, i have 10 shots on target and i simply cant score, my "decisive" chances are from corners, free kicks, etc, and i dont want that, i want a slow football, with a lot of possession and still with goals, thats what my tactic lacks about, there are games that i cant simply score goals.

What do you guys think about all of this ? Do i need to change something ? Give me your toughts.

My system: 2 inverted full backs with support duty, 2 ball playing defense with defend duty, i have a sweeper keeper with support duty, i have 2 Mezzalas with attack duty, i have 2 wingers with attack duty and a False 9.

My instructions with the ball: play very wide, play from defense, shorter passing, much lower tempo, work ball into the area, low crosses.

My transition instructions: Counter attack when lost, counter attack when win possession, goalkeeper slowing pace of the game, goalkeeper passes to fullbacks.

My without the ball inscructions: Much more high defensive line, and much more high line of pressing, extremely urgent closing down with tighter marking

The problem of all this is: i want to score more, have really nice possession, do i need to change some roles ?

Waiting for answer, ty.

[kpsia518]

pep tactic is not just tiki-taka.The hardest part is positional play.

just like LVG,player stay there don't do this,don't do that,don't move too much...
pep style is the same.,.

[kurupted]

Yup, the problem is, its very hard to replicate Real Life Pep Guardiola tactic, they usually play a very slow tempo, not risking anything, and when they see a breach, they rush a bit the play. thats the problem in FM, we dont have that kind of options, sadly.

[Experienced Defender]

There is too much that I would change in your tactic, but the first thing I'd like to know is - what is the role of your DM? (I don't speak Portuguese so I don't know what PD means, sorry)

[Roxy12]

13 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

There is too much that I would change in your tactic, but the first thing I'd like to know is - what is the role of your DM? (I don't speak Portuguese so I don't know what PD means, sorry)

Half back, translates to "Defensive Pivot"

[kurupted]

Yup, PD in the image means in portuguese: Pivot Defensivo, but you call it "Half Back" or "Defensive Pivot".

One thing, there are games against low teams that i cant even have more than 55% possession, and when i have high possession, i cant score, the only goals I score its from corner, free kicks, few goals come from plays.

[Roxy12]

52 minutos atrás, kurupted disse:

Yup, PD in the image means in portuguese: Pivot Defensivo, but you call it "Half Back" or "Defensive Pivot".

One thing, there are games against low teams that i cant even have more than 55% possession, and when i have high possession, i cant score, the only goals I score its from corner, free kicks, few goals come from plays.

you play very wide with much shorter passing, if the players are so far apart, there isnt no short pass option.

Normally, the wider you play, the longer the passes should be

 

and im not a fan of 2 mezzallas in attack, as the role says: it will leave the defensive side to other players, so you basically defend with only 1 in central midfield

[kurupted]

4 horas atrás, Roxy12 disse:

you play very wide with much shorter passing, if the players are so far apart, there isnt no short pass option.

Normally, the wider you play, the longer the passes should be

 

and im not a fan of 2 mezzallas in attack, as the role says: it will leave the defensive side to other players, so you basically defend with only 1 in central midfield

But look, i want my wingers to stay in the line, if i i play narrow my wingers will not be in the sideline.

More, do you think that the option "Pass into space" is against Guardiola philosofy ? I want my players to do diagonals, triangulations, players running from marking, and i only achieve that with "pass into space, what do you think ?

[Roxy12]

1 hora atrás, kurupted disse:

But look, i want my wingers to stay in the line, if i i play narrow my wingers will not be in the sideline.

More, do you think that the option "Pass into space" is against Guardiola philosofy ? I want my players to do diagonals, triangulations, players running from marking, and i only achieve that with "pass into space, what do you think ?

They will with the PPM "hugs touchline" i think (someone confirm this)

 

I dont think its against guardiolas philosofy, however, in the build up the players pass into feet and in the final third they use that pass into space for a 1on1 with the goalkeeper, this is impossible to replicate in FM because the pass into space is for all team. But if you want that running into space then yes, you should tick the pass into space. but make sure to have fast players so they can reach that pass

another way is having your players train the "plays one twos" PPM and/or the "tries killer balls"

[Experienced Defender]

I am not an expert in "Pepball", but what I am sure about (based on City's matches I've watched) is that he definitely does not play both CMs as Mezzalas, and certainly not both on attack duty. Maybe he uses both wide forwards (AMR&L) on attack duty (which I also doubt), but hardly both of them play a winger role. In attack, Aguero certainly can play very well as an F9, though I generally see him more as a trequartista. Finally, I am pretty much certain that Pep uses at least one playmaker (whether it's a DLP, APM, RPM or perhaps regista), but I don't see a single one in your system.

Where your replication is (only) correct IMO is in transition - Pep does use both counter and counter-press.

And one final piece of advice: if you want to replicate a tactic of some team, then play with (i.e. manage) that particular team (in this case Man City). Because even if you managed to make a "perfect" replication in terms of tactical instructions, it can only work properly with the team on whose playing style the tactic is based (or at least a team of very similar quality). 

 

 

 

[Roxy12]

3 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

I am not an expert in "Pepball", but what I am sure about (based on City's matches I've watched) is that he definitely does not play both CMs as Mezzalas, and certainly not both on attack duty. Maybe he uses both wide forwards (AMR&L) on attack duty (which I also doubt), but hardly both of them play a winger role. In attack, Aguero certainly can play very well as an F9, though I generally see him more as a trequartista. Finally, I am pretty much certain that Pep uses at least one playmaker (whether it's a DLP, APM, RPM or perhaps regista), but I don't see a single one in your system.

Where your replication is (only) correct IMO is in transition - Pep does use both counter and counter-press.

And one final piece of advice: if you want to replicate a tactic of some team, then play with (i.e. manage) that particular team (in this case Man City). Because even if you managed to make a "perfect" replication in terms of tactical instructions, it can only work properly with the team on whose playing style the tactic is based (or at least a team of very similar quality). 

 

 

 

To be fair this

but he did use recently Silva & Silva as CMs working the half spaces, the thing is the AML AMR, in my humble opinion pep is using a role named “Extremos interiores” (I don’t know the English word) who was popular in Portugal like 15/20 years ago, it’s a mixture of inside forward and winger, has you never knew if he was going to the line and cross it or cut inside.

TLDR: it’s impossible to do pep style with roles in game, the game can be pep ball when you can put a player in a position and then give him instructions to build the way he plays in defense/attack/possession/no possession without roles, till then no nice pep play

[kurupted]

Currently, im using a Defensive Midfields with Support Duty, a Mezzala Attack duty and a player who goes forward and goes to defense to play the ball,what do you think about the wingers and their PI's ?

 

I Currently use Wingers in Support Duty, but if i play Inside Forward they do not hugh the touchline

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, Roxy12 said:

in my humble opinion pep is using a role named “Extremos interiores” (I don’t know the English word) who was popular in Portugal like 15/20 years ago, it’s a mixture of inside forward and winger, has you never knew if he was going to the line and cross it or cut inside.

Maybe he could try this with a trequartista in AML/R.

 

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

I Currently use Wingers in Support Duty, but if i play Inside Forward they do not hugh the touchline

You can ask IF to stay wider, plus use a player whose stronger foot matches his side of the pitch (for example, a right-footed IF in AMR). Of course, he will not act completely as a winger and will look to cut inside whenever possible (unless he has the PPM "Hugs the line"). But I am not sure why you are insisting on hugging the touchline in the first place?

[MBarbaric]

24 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

But I am not sure why you are insisting on hugging the touchline in the first place

because that is how city creates space for players in the half space. wingers/full backs stay o the touchline on both sides to stretch the back line. theoretically, this ensures more space in half spaces between the opposition lines for two CM's and/or inverted full backs.

you see here the width is covered by full backs (#12/#2). this stretches the back line allowing more space in the half-space (blue circle). With rotations from W's/Fb's/CM/AM/SC the team in possession unbalances the defense looking for a vertical ball (red circle). Depending on opposition reactions,  the ball is kept/recycled, switched to weak flank or the attack continues down the wing (green circle). 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

because that is how city creates space for players in the half space. wingers/full backs stay o the touchline on both sides to stretch the back line. theoretically, this ensures more space in half spaces between the opposition lines for two CM's and/or inverted full backs.

you see here the width is covered by full backs (#12/#2). this stretches the back line allowing more space in the half-space (blue circle). With rotations from W's/Fb's/CM/AM/SC the team in possession unbalances the defense looking for a vertical ball (red circle). Depending on opposition reactions,  the ball is kept/recycled, switched to weak flank or the attack continues down the wing (green circle). 

Well, the best way to achieve a situation as close as possible to what you described is to play with maximum attacking width and ask wide players to stay wider.

[kurupted]

Thats the problem, if i put in team instructions to play Wider, then my midfield will not be compact, i play Fairly narrow and i have instructions to wingers to Stay Wider.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

Thats the problem, if i put in team instructions to play Wider, then my midfield will not be compact, i play Fairly narrow and i have instructions to wingers to Stay Wider.

And how wide do your wingers stay with that combination of instructions?

[Mitja]

does stay wider have any effect on AMR/L in this ME?

[kurupted]

What about a Mezzala on support duty and a BPM in the midfield ? Does the mezzala acts like David Silva (goes sometimes inside de box)

[Roxy12]

7 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Well, the best way to achieve a situation as close as possible to what you described is to play with maximum attacking width and ask wide players to stay wider.

Or wait fm 2020 for the extremos interiores role x)

[kurupted]

I now play with 2 full backs on support duty that stay wide and remain wide with the ball, im dont know if i play with 2 wingers on support  or inside forwards on support

[Roxy12]

4 horas atrás, kurupted disse:

I now play with 2 full backs on support duty that stay wide and remain wide with the ball, im dont know if i play with 2 wingers on support  or inside forwards on support

That depends on the type of players you have, if you have players who have nice crossing stats don’t waste it by choosing inside forwards, same goes the other way, if you have nice players with finishing stats don’t waste it.

im playing with 2 inside forwards because they are more the goalscoring type. However, if you have the right players, you should have one IF and one winger, with your best attacking fullback behind the inside forward to overlap. So I would go Wingback (s) behind a IF (a) on one side and Fullback(a) and Winger(s) on the other side and having the team instruction to overlap the side the inside forward is in ( assuming you want your wingback to go more upfield and cross more)

[kurupted]

Another thing, i want my Wingers to do vertical movements, so my midfields can do trough balls, how do you think i can achieve this ? I need to put my wingers in Attack duty and use "Pass into space" ?

[Roxy12]

2 horas atrás, kurupted disse:

Another thing, i want my Wingers to do vertical movements, so my midfields can do trough balls, how do you think i can achieve this ? I need to put my wingers in Attack duty and use "Pass into space" ?

there are different ways for them to do vertical runs: Having attack duties, having player instruction to get further forward or a PPM to get further forward

for the through balls, pass into space if you want every player to try passing it or having roles who have riskier passes, the PPM tries killer balls will also make the player try that pass

[kurupted]

I currently use a sweeper keeper with support duty, a left full back in attack duty, a right inverted wing back in defense duty, a ball player defender, a normal defender, then a Defensive Miedfielder in support duty, a central midfielder in support duty, a Mezzala in attack duty, a left inverted winger in attack duty, a right inverted winger in support duty then a false nine.

In TI i use: Positive mentality, much shorter passing, slightly higher tempo, play very wide, play from back, drible less and be disciplined and work ball into box

 

But i cant seem to have consistently +60% possession or more than 600 passes. What am i doing wrong ?

[Experienced Defender]

5 minutes ago, kurupted said:

I currently use a sweeper keeper with support duty, a left full back in attack duty, a right inverted wing back in defense duty, a ball player defender, a normal defender, then a Defensive Miedfielder in support duty, a central midfielder in support duty, a Mezzala in attack duty, a left inverted winger in attack duty, a right inverted winger in support duty then a false nine.

In TI i use: Positive mentality, much shorter passing, slightly higher tempo, play very wide, play from back, drible less and be disciplined and work ball into box

 

But i cant seem to have consistently +60% possession or more than 600 passes. What am i doing wrong ?

Are you still trying to replicate Pep's tactic or want to try something different? I don't understand most of your team instructions (except those you translated) because they are in Portuguese, but judging by what I see, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. You need to analyze your squad (players) first, so that you can see what kind of tactic would suit them best.

[kurupted]

My squad has high Pass attributes, my miedfields is good too, Félix has 17 vision 16 pass, Bernardo as 16pass 17 vision, my wingers have nice finishing and the Team Instructions are what i told you before.

Much Shorter Passing

Play from the back

Drible less

Work ball into the box

Be more disciplined

Work ball into the box

Positive mentality.

This is with the ball instructions

Im trying to replicate Guardiola tactic in some way, but thats not the point, with this tactic and with this instructions, why my team cant have consistent +60% ball possession with more than 600 passes ?

[Roxy12]

11 horas atrás, kurupted disse:

My squad has high Pass attributes, my miedfields is good too, Félix has 17 vision 16 pass, Bernardo as 16pass 17 vision, my wingers have nice finishing and the Team Instructions are what i told you before.

Much Shorter Passing

Play from the back

Drible less

Work ball into the box

Be more disciplined

Work ball into the box

Positive mentality.

This is with the ball instructions

Im trying to replicate Guardiola tactic in some way, but thats not the point, with this tactic and with this instructions, why my team cant have consistent +60% ball possession with more than 600 passes ?

i would say the cause is the width, the passing and the tempo, they conflit

 

if you play much wider, players are very far away, so no short pass available, and the higher tempo makes them decide very fast so normally they will pass it to the first player they see even if its not the best pass option

[kurupted]

But thats the thing, if i dont play wide my wingers dont stay in the line, or they do ?

[yonko]

19 hours ago, kurupted said:

I currently use a sweeper keeper with support duty, a left full back in attack duty, a right inverted wing back in defense duty, a ball player defender, a normal defender, then a Defensive Miedfielder in support duty, a central midfielder in support duty, a Mezzala in attack duty, a left inverted winger in attack duty, a right inverted winger in support duty then a false nine.

In TI i use: Positive mentality, much shorter passing, slightly higher tempo, play very wide, play from back, drible less and be disciplined and work ball into box

 

But i cant seem to have consistently +60% possession or more than 600 passes. What am i doing wrong ?

For start what you're doing wrong is the mentality and the tempo combination. Playing very wide also doesn't help.

If you want to play with Positive Mentality, then you have to use lower Tempo, bellow the middle of the slider. And play narrower. Your width can come from when you set your FBs and Wide Midfielders to Stay Wide via PIs.

In FM, possession is calculated by time spent on the ball. So you need instructions that make your players have the ball for longer time. And you also need instructions that will take way the ball from the opposition.

[kurupted]

But if i play fairly narrow, lower tempo, another problem occurs. Too much possession but no goals

[yonko]

3 hours ago, kurupted said:

But if i play fairly narrow, lower tempo, another problem occurs. Too much possession but no goals

So find the balance in between then. Set the width and tempo to standard. Adjust a little bit - a click here, a click there, until you find what you like. Keep in mind that it could vary from game to game, depending what the opposition do.

[Roxy12]

6 horas atrás, kurupted disse:

But if i play fairly narrow, lower tempo, another problem occurs. Too much possession but no goals

So change mentality, in my tactic when I see I got a lot of possession but no CCC/goals I tend to lower my team mentality

Why ? Because that means the other team is playing very deep and I cannot find spaces, so by lowering the mentality my players will hold more to the ball and don’t try to rush the ball forward, that little tweak makes the opponent chase the ball carrier more and voilá, space for a goal, then they are behind and give more space trying to get the equalizer

[kurupted]

One more thing, how can i make players "swap" positions during the match ?

Per example, i have my central midfielder holding the ball, then he passes to a winger, how can i make the central midfielder go to the Winger position, and my winger go to the central midfield position ? This in FM2019. Is that the "Be more expressive" TI or the "Roam from position" PI ?

 

How can i make that happen ?

[kurupted]

Just like this, central midfield passes to Sané or the Right Winger, then he moves to the empty space the Winger lefts. So it happens with Sane, the midfield passes to Sane and then moves to space

[fasmercurio]

Help? Just don’t try. You’re going to get frustrated.

[kurupted]

I dont understand this game, i have 60% possession, but i cant seem to score goals, seems like the lower team opposition has world class defenders