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Minotti

Better understand the attributes

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I feel that many player attributes in the game are ambigious in what they do for certain role or how important it is etc.

Anticipation: "This attribute reflects players ability to predict and react to events going on around them, "

What does that even mean?? Its not really a giveaway on for whom this is important for. Could be practically anyone!

There are a lot more imo that needs to be adressed. Especially since we seem to be getting more and more roles.

 

Speaking of roles. WHY do they have to be preset? Why cant I create my own role for a player? Do we always have to wait for SI to add a certain role to the game for us to be able to mold a players position and playing style to that.

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1 hour ago, Minotti said:

I feel that many player attributes in the game are ambigious in what they do for certain role or how important it is etc.

Anticipation: "This attribute reflects players ability to predict and react to events going on around them, "

What does that even mean?? Its not really a giveaway on for whom this is important for. Could be practically anyone!

There are a lot more imo that needs to be adressed. Especially since we seem to be getting more and more roles.

 

Speaking of roles. WHY do they have to be preset? Why cant I create my own role for a player? Do we always have to wait for SI to add a certain role to the game for us to be able to mold a players position and playing style to that.

They are more like hidden uses for each player, it usually is the mental attributes that aren't used for roles but VERY important to each player. I generally go for higher mentality players or at least build them to be or try, simply cause they cut mistakes out and are level headed when needed. Midfielders and defenders need good anticipation in general but having a striker/wingers/fullbacks/wingbacks can prove helpful as they can understand each other and react towards others. Each attribute is to their own, everyone has them but even if it's not highlighted for roles it's still a useful tool to have. To me pace is a must have above 13/14 for me as rule because not all roles need pace but when defending or attacking having good pace players can track back, or support players when needed. 

The roles are fine as they are, it'd be stupid to make your own roles as the roles are preset and show what they do for example playmakers get given the ball alot more than a BBM but the BBM role offers stability up and down the pitch where the playmaker would usually move up with sometimes defending but it's not in their role too so don't expect much defending on them. Each role is set to way it works, if you had an option to make one yourself it wouldn't work without the coding and all sorts behind the screen which takes time and money. Another way to look at it is why are their so many roles when central mid has all 3 duties and can cover every basis from a basic point of view? the answer to that is what i said before about each role being specific to what they do if you get what I mean. 

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The roles are based on real football and this is a football simulation.

Also, I suspect if you could make your own roles, they'd be open to exploitation in the same way the old slider mechanics were, with the result that AI teams couldn't cope against that.

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The problem though is that a lot of attributes seem so important yet when you look at a player like Messi who is very strong has very weak stats in strength. And there are other examples. Like Iniesta and xavi having weak balance etc.

 

As for player roles. I understand that AI can have a problem in countering. But to be honest, they always have a trouble being competetive few seasons in. Reason why Id want to have my own roles is cause to me I play FM so I can see my philosophy and team play the way I want, even if the results arent positive. There will always be those who would abuse it but in general most FM fans are all about creating tactics that we could consider a possibility. 

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On 21/11/2018 at 21:41, herne79 said:

The reason you can't create your own role for a player is two fold: 1) it might not reflect real life and 2) it would give us an unfair advantage over the AI because the AI isn't as creative as we can be.

In terms of the attributes there is more information about them in the Online Manual linked at the top of this forum.  But just to give you an idea of how Anticipation can be important for a striker, the team work together so much in training that come match day the striker knows where the winger will deliver the ball and so he makes his move before the winger makes his cross.  He anticipates where the ball will arrive.  Likewise the winger knows where the striker will be trying to get to and so tries to deliver the ball accordingly.

I understand attributes however, how do you assess attributes based on the league/standard you are playing at? So would you have a range per each division? Like, in the VNL if a player has 8-10 finishing, it is considered good? If it is League Two: 10-12. League One: 12-14 etc.

 

It's easy to gauge in the top divisions but in the lower leagues, what kind of value would you consider good and bad? 

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2 minutes ago, Minotti said:

The problem though is that a lot of attributes seem so important

Yeh I understand.

A good starting point can be to look at the description and default Player Instructions in a role you may want to use.  As an example, consider the Winger role.  From reading it and looking at the PIs, the role is about crossing a lot, dribbling and trying to beat his man.  So some crossing, dribbling and speed are probably going to be useful for whichever player you decide you to use there.  Anything else, such as Workrate, Determination, Technique, whatever, are bonuses.  So regardless of what the game tells you on a player's attribute screen are considered to be "key" or "desirable" attributes for a role, start with the role itself and try to think what is absolutely essential for a player to have in order to fulfil that.

Telling a player what to do (by defining his role) and him actually being able to carry out that instruction to any degree of competence (his attributes/traits) are two different things and often overlooked by people trying to create tactics.  And when trying to marry the two together (you won't always get a 100% fit) start by reading the role description and default PIs.

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2 minutes ago, SynergyIso7 said:

I understand attributes however, how do you assess attributes based on the league/standard you are playing at? So would you have a range per each division? Like, in the VNL if a player has 8-10 finishing, it is considered good? If it is League Two: 10-12. League One: 12-14 etc.

 

It's easy to gauge in the top divisions but in the lower leagues, what kind of value would you consider good and bad? 

On the one hand you could look at how your players are performing in their given roles.  Are you meeting or exceeding Board expectations?  If the players are doing well and your Board are happy then that kind of answers the question and you have a platform to build on.  Gradual improvement in key (then all) areas.

You could also look at your team comparison reports.  It compares your team across a wide range of attributes with high/average/low attributes across the rest of your division.  If your defenders (for example) are especially low in their Tackling then that may give you an indication on where to strengthen first, especially if you are fresh into the club.

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The game provides you with general frameworks for guidance on attributes that provide something more middle of the road. They're not wrong, they're not bad, they'll serve you pretty well actually. But they're just a framework to look at.

The very best players rarely fit a standard template, there is something unconventional about them for the position you'd expect them to play. Sometimes so unconventional that they end up redefining a position in the game to become what we see is a new role.

- - -

So moving onto something more specific, and the one mentioned in the OP. Anticipation.

It's a marvellous stat, and you're right its important for everyone. Anticipation is the attribute that can see an old striker still score 20+ goals a season when his legs have gone. Anticipation is the attribute that can see a slow, lumbering centre-half keep a pacey player quiet. Not alone, never alone because the attributes don't work in a vacuum but the ability to read the game is a sign of footballing intelligence and having that is always a good thing.

Yet there's still situations it can let a player down. You might be playing balls over the top, trying to get in behind the defence, but this lumbering oaf with great anticipation is playing a blinder, the defensive line is deep enough and he's dropping even deeper that every time your speed demon forward gets the ball there's no space to run into. So you sub on a more technically gifted, but a little slower player on. Same ball goes over the top, and he's negated the speed once more, but this defender despite his anticipation lacks agility and concentration and the new player has great dribbling, technique, balance and agility. Well all of a sudden the anticipation isn't counting for much, because he just isn't physically and mentally able to keep track with what this forward is doing. A few tricky turns, some agile movement and he's made 2 yards of space, fired a shot off and scored.

Players have a score for every attribute that is important to them, how important it is to them is depending on what you want that player to do. If you want your box to box midfielder surging in the box and scoring headers (hello Milinkovic-Savic, my favourite 6'4" box to box midfielder) then you need him to be tall, have a good jumping reach and heading at the base line. If you want him to be more proficient you also want him to have a good off the ball attribute too. If you've got a set-up that creates a lot of crosses around the penalty spot then this kind of guy could be ideal to get you 10+ goals a season from midfield. 

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Tbh the way I think of it is quite extreme but useful in all cases. For a moment ignore the physical and technical stats and lets focus on the mental stats. 

The mental stats are basically the mind of the players, what they should do, how they react, how they position themselves, how composed they are when under/out of pressure etc. All mental stats are important but keep in mind that even if they have a weak area for example having 1-10/11 in an area it doesn't mean they will all the time but are less likely to do that job but on a few occasions they will prevail which is why development happens even as older players grow and why their mental stats usually stay quite high compared to their youth. Use the stats as a chance of likeliness rather than official numbers you expect to happen, cause even the best players have bad games. 

Now bringing back the physical and technical stats, they are important to certain roles, the highlighted ones are what are expected of them. Again think of it in terms of chance, so an example would be pace, crossing might be amazing but they wont do it all the time because their mental stats dictate the way they think and play during the game. Raw players will have great/good potential in their physical and technical stats and will try to be ambitious on the pitch but they will be rash as you expect in reality not making the right decisions, composure being poor etc. But the more they play and gain experience we see improvement on mental stats which boosts their "chances" of making those decisions better. Thats why concentration, composure, anticipation and decisions are for me very important even if their role doesn't highlight it for elder players but for young ones i'm a bit more lenient, if they start off good and have good stats in those highlighted areas you bet im gonna look at them. 

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Just now, BigV said:

Tbh the way I think of it is quite extreme but useful in all cases. For a moment ignore the physical and technical stats and lets focus on the mental stats. 

The mental stats are basically the mind of the players, what they should do, how they react, how they position themselves, how composed they are when under/out of pressure etc. All mental stats are important but keep in mind that even if they have a weak area for example having 1-10/11 in an area it doesn't mean they will all the time but are less likely to do that job but on a few occasions they will prevail which is why development happens even as older players grow and why their mental stats usually stay quite high compared to their youth. Use the stats as a chance of likeliness rather than official numbers you expect to happen, cause even the best players have bad games. 

Now bringing back the physical and technical stats, they are important to certain roles, the highlighted ones are what are expected of them. Again think of it in terms of chance, so an example would be pace, crossing might be amazing but they wont do it all the time because their mental stats dictate the way they think and play during the game. Raw players will have great/good potential in their physical and technical stats and will try to be ambitious on the pitch but they will be rash as you expect in reality not making the right decisions, composure being poor etc. But the more they play and gain experience we see improvement on mental stats which boosts their "chances" of making those decisions better. Thats why concentration, composure, anticipation and decisions are for me very important even if their role doesn't highlight it for elder players but for young ones i'm a bit more lenient, if they start off good and have good stats in those highlighted areas you bet im gonna look at them. 

Decisions basically covers everything, so it's vital, to me especially. There's little point in your DLP seeing every possible pass he can make with his Vision and he has the Technique and Passing to pull all of them off, but he chooses the wrong option. Just 1 example. 

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Just now, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Anticipation is one of the mental attributes that made great a techinical ugly player like Filippo Inzaghi. 

 

Couldn't have been that great if "he was born offside".  :D:brock:

 

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13 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Decisions basically covers everything, so it's vital, to me especially. There's little point in your DLP seeing every possible pass he can make with his Vision and he has the Technique and Passing to pull all of them off, but he chooses the wrong option. Just 1 example. 

Aye very true but even then a lower player can sometimes still do wonders. I know a lot of raw players usually have stats like that but people give them chances in first team and they build quite quickly. I tend to make them work for it in u23's and if they are good enough for cup games then move them in. If we're talking experienced first team like players then yeah it's ever so more important but averagely 14 is my mark cause top players have great stats but some are mentally frail but it doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. Renato sanchez is a prime example i'd say, weak mentally but is unpredictable because hes a wide variety of top stats to make things work. I gotta say it's on par with concentration too, vital parts of players. 

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Just now, BigV said:

Aye very true but even then a lower player can sometimes still do wonders. 

Of course, but they're also up against players of the same quality, so will also make more mistakes with anticipation, decisions. I value mental attributes more than the others at any club, at any level.

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1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Of course, but they're also up against players of the same quality, so will also make more mistakes with anticipation, decisions. I value mental attributes more than the others at any club, at any level.

I find the important thing is to recognize the fact that you play against players of same quality. So as I climb the German leagues, my midfielder with 14 decisions is pretty solid in 3. Liga and even Bundesliga 2 because he is still one of the smartest players at his level, even if he'd make more mistakes than an even smarter player.

There are some stats I value for all players in part for "roleplaying" and in part for what I value. Off the top of my head: Decisions, Determination, Team Work, Work Rate. I'll make slight exceptions for talented players but I am typically less forgiving for those attributes.

Outside of that (and probably because of my lower league biases), I do also value my players having minimum standards of physical attributes, then a balance with technical and mental. Although once I have my physical minimum standards, their value diminishes greatly and I start leaning much more on technical and mental abilities.

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Decision (and important matches) should be imho the most important attribute

And i think "pace" is very overrated since ever in the Match Engine, 'cause IRL pure pace can be important only in particular tactics/circumstance, while accelleration and above all agility and balance can exalting or limit (if bad) a player in every action. 

Taking the 2 great player of the 95-06 years, Ronaldo and Zidane. 

The franch maestro was not fast, but he can controll and protect the ball thanks his great balance. 

The brazilian phenomeno after his infamous injury was again very fast (see him against Cannavaro and Thuram in CL) but also due to thyroidism he gained weight e lost agility and balance, that limit him much more.

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On 21/11/2018 at 20:04, BigV said:

 

The roles are fine as they are, it'd be stupid to make your own roles as the roles 

Completely disagree with that.  IRL roles are descriptive; the game makes them prescriptive.  The real limitations for a player in a position are their physical and mental abilities i.e. their attributes.  A real simulation would allow you free reign over creating roles  (ideally as part of the training module) - that is how football tactics evolve. Preset roles creates a version of football frozen in time.  Of course placing such limitations  on the player also allows counter-measure algorithms for the computer teams to be tailored to those roles ...

Edited by rp1966

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3 hours ago, rp1966 said:

Completely disagree with that.  IRL roles are descriptive; the game makes them prescriptive.  The real limitations for a player in a position are their physical and mental abilities i.e. their attributes.  A real simulation would allow you free reign over creating roles  (ideally as part of the training module) - that is how football tactics evolve. Preset roles creates a version of football frozen in time.  Of course placing such limitations  on the player also allows counter-measure algorithms for the computer teams to be tailored to those roles ...

They are descriptive, but they all have different things to change the way they play. Look at pogba, mezzala, playmaker, physical dribbler, sounds like a roaming playmaker yet he's different in other ways to satisfy a role. Now add one of your own, one can be made to "break the ME" like the 4-3-3 did last year, im sure there are certain areas where creating a role would cause havoc in the code and algorithyms without changing much with how big the game is and the levels of uses on PC specs etc. 

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To be honest, you've kind of made my point for me.  Mezalla is just a description of a midfield position being played with certain instructions. A 'define your own role' system would allow you to do that from the base midfield role. also IRL put a different player in the role and it will be played differently. 'Raumdeuter' is just a subtle variation on inside forward - the role is just a label on a set of instructions for the wide attacking player.

In reality there are two things that result in a position being played a certain way - the constraints of the player and the tactical instructions  from the manager/coaching staff.

Now, I can accept that the preset roles represent the constraints of current coaching theory and so are justified from that perspective. But that will only hold for so many years.  Playing FM into the future, after 5-10 years those constraints should be removed, To do that successfully would need better modelling of the physical capabilities of players - particularly in-game fatigue and degradation of ability due to injuries that don't require substitution - it would also need better computer algorithms that analyse space usage rather that relying on "role x plays to these constraints".

Game-breaking tactics come in two flavours - those that are physically impossible to play,but allowed due to limited modelling of players, and those that are actually tactically inept, but exploit the limitations of the game code. Instead of just saying "don't play exploit tactics", SI need to ask why it wouldn't work IRL and why the game engine allows it to - answering that with artificial constraints on the player's tactical choices is not a real answer, those tactics should get found out for the same reasons they would IRL.

 

Edited by rp1966

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23 hours ago, santy001 said:

So moving onto something more specific, and the one mentioned in the OP. Anticipation...

Just want to say that I love reading your comments about attributes and how they represent things in game. Really help me understand what I'm looking at and how to get the best out of different types of players. So big thanks!

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They're all very useful, but I find having a 'basic' level of technical and physical attributes can be compensated for by superb mental attributes. I find physical or technical players without good mentals to be inconsistent and frustrating to deal with. 

 

Thus, I'll tailor a player to exploit his physicals and technical via role, but I won't suffer someone who doesn't have the mentality as you can't really 'hide' those players, not even out wide for me. I've come to this view in favour of mental attributes over the recent seasons, when it has come to dealing with strikers and missing chances, but also defenders and how they hold the defensive work. Securing a defender with superior mental attributes really made short work of nearly every opposition attack, though it helps that defenders can afford to drop a lot of technical attributes. 

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2 ore fa, isignedupfornorealreason ha scritto:

They're all very useful, but I find having a 'basic' level of technical and physical attributes can be compensated for by superb mental attributes. I find physical or technical players without good mentals to be inconsistent and frustrating to deal with. 

 

Thus, I'll tailor a player to exploit his physicals and technical via role, but I won't suffer someone who doesn't have the mentality as you can't really 'hide' those players, not even out wide for me. I've come to this view in favour of mental attributes over the recent seasons, when it has come to dealing with strikers and missing chances, but also defenders and how they hold the defensive work. Securing a defender with superior mental attributes really made short work of nearly every opposition attack, though it helps that defenders can afford to drop a lot of technical attributes. 

I think that would be great, as i think IRL are the mental attributes that make difference. (Seeing how Messi become a normal into the International competition).

 

But i think that in game "pace" can alone excedeed the mental. 

Playing in weaker league as in Hungary, a pacefull striker can score too much goals and you can play regular speedy young with poor mentality with great result in every role.

Edited by FlorianAlbert9

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