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shadster

How to break defensive teams after a few seasons

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I had this issue last year, and I'm having it again on FM 19. I play with Benfica, and on first season and part of second season I manage to get very good results. From then, I still can get good results in general, I do really good on champions league, but most league games I struggle to win for more than one goal. Teams become very deffensive, and no matter what I try, it is so difficult to get confortable wins, despite I produce a lot of shots. I will give an example of a game, my typical home game after a few seasons, and I will explain what I do on game.

First of all, my current tactic

1001920786_Screenshot2018-11-1718_47_32.thumb.png.669283ee8c4b9a5ec680009d1f7386e5.png

I'm not using PI. Against smaller teams, I start the game with this setup. Against bigger sides, I adjust mentality and defensive line.

The game I will post here, I won 2-0, the second goal was scored on a penalty shot almost at the end. The formations:

809258532_Screenshot2018-11-1719_06_22.thumb.png.fa8dfa457279336a6d8279b2f29e6306.png

The stats:

976325551_Screenshot2018-11-1718_43_34.thumb.png.5cdd6516a1f679982244a1e9b340068e.png709665126_Screenshot2018-11-1718_44_42.thumb.png.e8b911110c47ddf9bcffa4aa6cf9f7b2.png

So, as you can see, total domination. But, as on the major part of this kind of games, the % of shots on goal is low, and that's an issue. But, on FM 18, I had a lot of long shots, nonsense shots. On FM 19, I'm missing a lot of good chances, a lot of post and crossbar shots, or near misses. I show the shots next, and despite what I wrote,my team still makes more long shots that I want.

 

1123637126_Screenshot2018-11-1718_45_30.thumb.png.a5dab0273629e0b32c88231f191b546e.png

On this game, at halftime, I increased width to wide, and I increased tempo to higher, but I saw no difference. And I already tried to play narrower on other games, and with higher tempo from beginning of games, but the pattern is always this. I make a lot of shots, win 1-0 or draw. 

Any suggestions on how I can break this deffensive teams?

Edited by shadster

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I always have this thought that the AI bunkers into a shell against teams who are reputationally much bigger,  Given you're Benfica and once you personally are successful as a manager then you are going to see teams go into that shell.

Now here's the thing.  The more you raise those lines higher and increase urgency of pressing, all that you are doing is reinforcing that shell behaviour.  You need to let teams breathe, encourage them forward to give yourself space.  That may mean a less aggressive team mentality, or less pressing, a lower block, fewer forwards runs or a combination of those factors.

Have a look at Tondela's incredibly defensive formation.  They are preparing to bunker.  Just going higher tempo is no more than panic.  The lock pick needs to be much more subtle.  Use roles to create natural pivots, or overloads or just open the space on the pitch.  That space will hurt Tondela far more than they can ever hurt you.

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I tried that, I now play with a lower block, lower  tempo, at times I lower mentality, but another example of most part of my games

1329204659_Screenshot2018-11-1813_16_11.thumb.png.6b2bb229bfed5fd947279363223eca82.png

Opposition gets two players sent off, but makes no difference. Don't get me wrong, I win games, get good results. I win almost all games that way, missing great chances, winning 1-0. Porto, if you discount games against me, has won now 45 games in a row on the league. Always same results.. first season it wasn't that way,but now the game seems to follow a pattern, and those patterns make the game boring. Porto winning all games (45 games in a row is really an exaggeration, William Jose on December having 32 goals scored it's just wrong), and me winning all games that way..

But getting back to thread, any more suggestions? Maybe roles and dutys are wrong?

 

Edited by shadster

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I find this a lot playing as Salzburg since I’m the dominant team in the league. I’m unbeaten in league but each game is more of a slog than I’d like. 

Last game I had lower LOE and high line. They had more of the ball but still only had 1/2 shots. I won 2-0 with 1 being a set piece and the other a direct ball over the top.

I can win, no real trouble, but it’s mostly boring as you mention.

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2 hours ago, BadanieLuck said:

and the game will end 0-0.

I'm guessing the original post was created cause there are already too many nil-nils.  My own experience supports the suggestion I gave as an alternative.  It's fine by me whether or not my suggestion is followed, it's just that, a suggestion albeit one I stand by:

  • High DL
  • High LOE
  • Urgent pressing
  • High mentality
  • Prevent GK from playing out

Lots of posts with similar set up and similar problems.  Its across this forum and subject to some 'ME bug' debate too.

You don't need to come on here giving me this "myth" sh*te though.  I'm honestly trying to help someone so please walk by or come up with a better idea and substantiate it.

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@Robson 07 This was in no way meant to directly point at you nor was I trying to give you sh*t. I was simply stating my opinion as to why I think dropping the DL and LOE won't solve this issue. The OP tried it, many others tried in the various threads you mentioned and didn't see better results and I was trying to explain why. So please don't feel attacked cause I wanted to show the contrary to your advice, which in threads like this usually pops up first and leaves people wondering why it didn't work for them.

I don't have advice for the OP, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have a discussion about this.

 

Edited by BadanieLuck

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Problem is, as I said, this is nothing new. And over the years, specially last year, I read a lot about it on the forum. And I've tried many approaches, increasing width and tempo, to try to get the opponent defense unsetled. Tried that approach of dropping defensive line, to have more space to operate. Tried lowering mentality, so the oposition can play some game and from there, try to launch my attacks. The true is that from midle of second season, teams become so defensive, and no matter what I do, I win most of times 1-0 or eventually draw. And always with this kind of stats. I read on another thread today that teams that play defense all game can be fair winners, and I agree.. but if someone  has some advice to me so my games will not be always like this, I would apreciate. Because, we are in middle of November, and getting bored already, games are always the same, despite of settings. Even if I play lower mentality, work ball into box, lower tempo, etc, my games are always the same, me making 25+ shots, oppositon making always less than 5 shots and me winning 1-0... and there's no fun on that. 

 

Edited by shadster

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On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 19:07, shadster said:

I had this issue last year

 

1 hour ago, shadster said:

Problem is, as I said, this is nothing new.

@shadster I just had a look at your activity history, the posts you were making in FM18.  Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't think I can help you by responding further as I'm only telling you what you've heard before and I can see you have discussed issues previously in other threads with Mods and so on.  I'll have nothing new to add if fundamentally you disagree with what the games gives you.  I can see you've tried very hard too so I wish you well.  Good luck.

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I will give just one more example. Played against Porto with this tactic and setup.

787865224_Screenshot2018-11-1819_24_51.thumb.png.5fd93e6b4e2e80483162ad44a1e6d0d2.png

Not high mentality, work ball into box, few atacking roles, lower tempo, etc. Yet, look at those stats..

961340448_Screenshot2018-11-1819_26_13.thumb.png.6ff34b784c212dbed9b1c4532ba5a328.png

30 shots on goal, same as if I had an high mentality, high defensive line,high tempo, more attacking dutys...

767063447_Screenshot2018-11-1819_25_46.thumb.png.4e672de2d38847a680f6daabf5f5a4d4.png

Just to get it clear, that's not true that I disagree with what the game gives to me. I enjoy it, but if there's some things I don't like or don't understand, I will try to find some help. If someone shows me what I'm doing wrong, I will acept it and try it. And again, this is not meant to be a complaining thread, I'm getting good results. I came here to ask for help on a specific issue, something that I'm not able to get right. But if mods and other people think like you, that I cause trouble or am not worthy anymore of answers, was never my intention, but that's fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by shadster

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4 horas atrás, shadster disse:

I will give just one more example. Played against Porto with this tactic and setup.

787865224_Screenshot2018-11-1819_24_51.thumb.png.5fd93e6b4e2e80483162ad44a1e6d0d2.png

Not high mentality, work ball into box, few atacking roles, lower tempo, etc. Yet, look at those stats..

961340448_Screenshot2018-11-1819_26_13.thumb.png.6ff34b784c212dbed9b1c4532ba5a328.png

30 shots on goal, same as if I had an high mentality, high defensive line,high tempo, more attacking dutys...

767063447_Screenshot2018-11-1819_25_46.thumb.png.4e672de2d38847a680f6daabf5f5a4d4.png

Just to get it clear, that's not true that I disagree with what the game gives to me. I enjoy it, but if there's some things I don't like or don't understand, I will try to find some help. If someone shows me what I'm doing wrong, I will acept it and try it. And again, this is not meant to be a complaining thread, I'm getting good results. I came here to ask for help on a specific issue, something that I'm not able to get right. But if mods and other people think like you, that I cause trouble or am not worthy anymore of answers, was never my intention, but that's fine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Off-topic

How much did Geubbels cost to you?

 

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10 minutes ago, Tunes10 said:

Off-topic

How much did Geubbels cost to you?

 

A lot.. not sure the exact number, but I think around 35 million and monaco still has a % on next sale

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2 minutos atrás, shadster disse:

A lot.. not sure the exact number, but I think around 35 million and monaco still has a % on next sale

Was it worth it?

 

sorry for the off-topic

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16 minutes ago, Tunes10 said:

Was it worth it?

 

sorry for the off-topic

No problem. He's starting to make worth it, starting to score more goals

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On ‎18‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 19:33, shadster said:

But if mods and other people think like you, that I cause trouble or am not worthy anymore of answers, was never my intention, but that's fine. 

There are no issues :).  If you had a similar issue in FM18 that doesn't mean you can't ask for help again in FM19.

On ‎18‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 19:13, Robson 07 said:

I'll have nothing new to add if fundamentally you disagree with what the games gives you.

I think something is getting a little lost in translation here.  From my reading, @shadster is trying to achieve a certain style of play and he has a small battle to try to achieve it.  As the ME evolves and this year's tactical changes take effect, he's just trying to come to terms with it again.

shadster - personally I think you could change the BBM to something a little more adventurous (with an attack duty), especially when you are the pre-match favourites.  The BBM is a good role, but he may arrive a little too late in the penalty area to take full advantage of the players around him or stay a bit too deep and end up taking long shots in this particular set up.

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You tried playing on higher or much higher tempo? I always found that work alright breaking up heavy defensive formations.

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14 minutes ago, Synx said:

You tried playing on higher or much higher tempo? I always found that work alright breaking up heavy defensive formations.

I did, and to be honest, I had very good results when I played that way. Second season I overachieved,I went to semi finals of Champions League, only loosing 5-4 on aggregate to final winner, Tottenham. But on 3rd season, after struggling to break increasing defending teams, tried different approaches. Maybe I have to go back to higher tempo, combined with what @herne79 suggested, maybe a mezzala on attack.

But, what still makes me confused, is the similarity of games and stats, when I played this season, either on higher mentalities, tempo, lines, pressure, etc, and when I lowered all of them.. you can see that on the examples I gave on this thread. So my conclusion is that must be highly related to roles and dutys I have.

Edited by shadster

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If it helps, and I haven;t read the whole thing in detail, byut my current set up, with Walsall - predicted 15th - is the 4141DM with wingers, Gegenpress modified slightly to suit my players, usually an IF and an AML/R or two AML/R.

Thisis my go-to tactic, I use from Kick Off with the idea that we just go at them from the off.

If it becomes obvious that they are hunkered down, sitting deep and compact and I am just trying to battering-ram my way htrough, I set back, my second tactic is a Fluid Counter Attack, again modified to suit my players slightly, but with the lower DL, lower LoE and 'Regroup' set in transition, then it actually gives the opponent time to ework the ball to the half way line, which in turn opens space in behind for my own counter.

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On 18/11/2018 at 19:33, shadster said:

767063447_Screenshot2018-11-1819_25_46.thumb.png.4e672de2d38847a680f6daabf5f5a4d4.png

How many of these long shots were free kicks as I notice they had a lot of fouls?

You have maybe 1 shot from between the posts in the box, that doesn't sound like good quality chances. That shorter, patient approach really needs good mental attributes (relative to opponents), I can't check the game right now but does that style fit the players?  Even if they're good at the role, your style will affect what attributes are more/less important.

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It seems that there's different opinions on how to better break defensive sides, increase tempo and apply more pressure on opposition, or reduce mentality and spread lines to achieve more space,and probably both are correct on the right context.  As I really coundn't find the solution on the last one, I went back to high tempo, an adapted gegenpress as I don't like that extreme settings. Things are going better so far, I will continue to test this setup to check if it's effective. I made some changes on tactic as well.

1718375861_Screenshot2018-11-2022_03_23.thumb.png.813c05399cb3a26bcab2e5120b42cbe7.png

I changed Anchor man to BWM and BBM to a Mezzala, and put João Félix on AM position, as I think he is much more effective there, and on other tactic I felt my striker was less effective than I would like, no matter what role and duty I gave to him, it seemed isolated and easy to defend most times. I'm noticing more attacking involvement from full backs now too, and that's one thing I like.

On a side note,  how funny things can be..last year, despite I had this kind of problems, from 3rd season it become increasing difficult to solve this ultra defensive teams, my major frustration consisted on never being able to beat  big clubs on Champions League. I never passed quarter finals,and if I played against Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man City, etc, they crushed me all time. This year, it seems that it's easier to me to beat Real Madrid than Tondela, as I'm doing really good on champions league on all seasos. I already beated Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United.

 

654509942_Screenshot2018-11-2022_18_32.thumb.png.dc43eb957752dc3daf5dc7cde0332144.png

Edited by shadster

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Em 20/11/2018 em 22:20, shadster disse:

It seems that there's different opinions on how to better break defensive sides, increase tempo and apply more pressure on opposition, or reduce mentality and spread lines to achieve more space,and probably both are correct on the right context.  As I really coundn't find the solution on the last one, I went back to high tempo, an adapted gegenpress as I don't like that extreme settings. Things are going better so far, I will continue to test this setup to check if it's effective. I made some changes on tactic as well.

1718375861_Screenshot2018-11-2022_03_23.thumb.png.813c05399cb3a26bcab2e5120b42cbe7.png

I changed Anchor man to BWM and BBM to a Mezzala, and put João Félix on AM position, as I think he is much more effective there, and on other tactic I felt my striker was less effective than I would like, no matter what role and duty I gave to him, it seemed isolated and easy to defend most times. I'm noticing more attacking involvement from full backs now too, and that's one thing I like.

On a side note,  how funny things can be..last year, despite I had this kind of problems, from 3rd season it become increasing difficult to solve this ultra defensive teams, my major frustration consisted on never being able to beat  big clubs on Champions League. I never passed quarter finals,and if I played against Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man City, etc, they crushed me all time. This year, it seems that it's easier to me to beat Real Madrid than Tondela, as I'm doing really good on champions league on all seasos. I already beated Real Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United.

 

654509942_Screenshot2018-11-2022_18_32.thumb.png.dc43eb957752dc3daf5dc7cde0332144.png

I have the same problem playing with Fcporto.... second season. I’ve tried different tactics and different combinations (higher tempo, higher lines  vs low tempo, lower linss, for example) and I have the same difficulties.

Which tactic did you use against Real Madrid?

Do you apply the same principles in away games agains Real Madrid, Man Utd, etc? Or play counter?

Edited by Tunes10

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1 hour ago, Tunes10 said:

I have the same problem playing with Fcporto.... second season. I’ve tried different tactics and different combinations (higher tempo, higher lines  vs low tempo, lower linss, for example) and the I have the same difficulties.

wich tactic did you use against Real Madrid?

Do you apply the same principles in away games agains Real Madrid, Man Utd, etc? Or play counter?

Against bigger sides (Real Madrid, Man Utd, Porto and Sporting Away), I play on balanced mentality, I push back defensive line to normal, reduce tempo to higher or slighty higher and pressing to more urgent. I take off the instruction to counter press when possession is lost as well. If I'm winning and want to protect the result I often put wingers on mildfield line and on support, and sometimes change mentality to cautious and reduce pressing even more. And yes, play on counter.

But, as I said, I did all of this on FM 18, and the results against big clubs were always a disaster. I remember a game against Real Madrid, at 30 min, they were winning 4-0 with more than 20 shots made. I tried defensive and sit down and try to hit the counter tactics, tried to apply more pressure and play with higher lines, I was absolutely crushed in all games. 

On FM 19, now that I went backt to a kind of Gegenpress tactic, and I'm trying to pay more attention to how oposition plays (example, if they play 3 centre backs, and no wingers, I set my team to play wider and by the flanks), now my team is playing better against this ultra defensive sides, but still, I'm having a much more easier time beating the Real Madri kind of teams, than the Tondela kind..

And by no means I'm suggesting the game was wrong on FM 18 or is now, it's me that could not find way to solve that challenge on FM 18 and finding more difficult this year to break those deffensive teams.

Edited by shadster

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I play like this against lower league teams. First season it was ok, now it has been hard to beat them... I am trying to fix the mistakes of my tactic 

1521F3F1-611A-4C55-8991-A64EC3B4A5B0.png

87768240-1B82-43FA-BCBB-4D3CD93A27FC.png

BB508BA8-225C-44D8-9075-9F7BFD711508.png

16EFD21D-C50C-434D-A6FE-3D0A572B0890.png

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2 hours ago, Tunes10 said:

@Experienced Defender, @Cleon, @Rashidi 

What do you think about this thread and this discussion?

(guys i’m sorry if i’m bothering you)

First of all, I don't want to sound falsely modest, but I really don't think I deserve to be put into the same company with the likes of Cleon and Rashidi. These guys are proven tactical geniuses (at least in FM terms), so they know the game much better than me. I understand tactics and can give some useful general advice, but I am nowhere near as good a tactician as they are. I'll tell you my opinion on the topic, but if theirs differ from mine, you better listen to them ;)

Now, what I see in this thread is that the OP-er has basically the same issue as many others, but is also making the same mistake as most of them, which is - trying to break defensive opposition by employing extremely aggressive tactics, which pushes the opponents even deeper into their half (box) while at the same time reducing the space for his own players in the attacking third. And on top of this extremely aggressive defending (all lines on the highest level, plus extreme pressing), he is also playing with extremely high tempo and passing into space, which is the best way to give possession away cheaply and thus allow the opposition to launch a quick counter using the plenty of space behind his overly high d-line.

What I would suggest first is - don't use too many instructions, especially if you are not 100% sure what each of them will bring to your tactic. If you want to break a team that is ultra-defensive, look to control possession and patiently build a "spider web" around them. Translated into instructions - play out of defence, normal or slightly lower tempo, standard or slightly shorter passing (you can optionally add "Work ball into box")... you can also play slightly wider (attacking width) to try and stretch them out of shape... creating overloads can also be a very useful strategy in this kind of situations. In transition - counter, distribute to CBs and FBs... sometimes use counter-press, but not necessarily. Out of possession - drop the LOE a bit deeper to entice the opposition out of their defensive shell. The instructions I would go with as a starting point - standard or lower LOE, slightly higher or standard d-line, more urgent pressing (and on occasion maybe Get Stuck In, but would use it rather cautiously).

Finally, roles and duties depend on your overall tactic, desired style of playing and of course the quality and type of players you have (don't ask a player to do what he isn't capable of - look at attributes and PPMs).

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23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

First of all, I don't want to sound falsely modest, but I really don't think I deserve to be put into the same company with the likes of Cleon and Rashidi. These guys are proven tactical geniuses (at least in FM terms), so they know the game much better than me. I understand tactics and can give some useful general advice, but I am nowhere near as good a tactician as they are. I'll tell you my opinion on the topic, but if theirs differ from mine, you better listen to them ;)

Now, what I see in this thread is that the OP-er has basically the same issue as many others, but is also making the same mistake as most of them, which is - trying to break defensive opposition by employing extremely aggressive tactics, which pushes the opponents even deeper into their half (box) while at the same time reducing the space for his own players in the attacking third. And on top of this extremely aggressive defending (all lines on the highest level, plus extreme pressing), he is also playing with extremely high tempo and passing into space, which is the best way to give possession away cheaply and thus allow the opposition to launch a quick counter using the plenty of space behind his overly high d-line.

What I would suggest first is - don't use too many instructions, especially if you are not 100% sure what each of them will bring to your tactic. If you want to break a team that is ultra-defensive, look to control possession and patiently build a "spider web" around them. Translated into instructions - play out of defence, normal or slightly lower tempo, standard or slightly shorter passing (you can optionally add "Work ball into box")... you can also play slightly wider (attacking width) to try and stretch them out of shape... creating overloads can also be a very useful strategy in this kind of situations. In transition - counter, distribute to CBs and FBs... sometimes use counter-press, but not necessarily. Out of possession - drop the LOE a bit deeper to entice the opposition out of their defensive shell. The instructions I would go with as a starting point - standard or lower LOE, slightly higher or standard d-line, more urgent pressing (and on occasion maybe Get Stuck In, but would use it rather cautiously).

Finally, roles and duties depend on your overall tactic, desired style of playing and of course the quality and type of players you have (don't ask a player to do what he isn't capable of - look at attributes and PPMs).

Thing is, I agree with you. And since I started to take tactic creation more seriously, I always tried to use a more possession oriented tactic, as I don't really like this more "extreme" setups. I like attacking football, pressing and try to take the ball back as soon as possible,  but I like as well to have some security. And I've tried that approach, spreading the lines, lower tempo, shorter passing. But the results against this defensive teams were considerably worst. And as I'm far away from being a great player of FM, I know I surely done many mistakes to contribute to that.

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9 minutes ago, shadster said:

Thing is, I agree with you. And since I started to take tactic creation more seriously, I always tried to use a more possession oriented tactic, as I don't really like this more "extreme" setups. I like attacking football, pressing and try to take the ball back as soon as possible,  but I like as well to have some security. And I've tried that approach, spreading the lines, lower tempo, shorter passing. But the results against this defensive teams were considerably worst. And as I'm far away from being a great player of FM, I know I surely done many mistakes to contribute to that.

I'll tell you from my personal experience what I believe is a good way to learn more about tactics and how it works. Start an "experimental" save with a club that is relatively solid but not a top-team relative to the league (i.e. good enough to avoid the relegation battle, but still far from being a serious title-contender). Then use that save (club) to learn through trial and error. Be patient and try not to lose your nerve when you don't get a result you've hoped for. First, analyze the squad to see where strengths and weaknesses of your team are. Then try to create a basic tactic based on these strengths and weaknesses. This tactic should be as simple as possible, reflecting just the fundamental principles of the style of play you believe to be the best for your team (do not use any "fancy" instructions until you feel you are really comfortable with tactic creation). Then watch carefully how your team is playing in different matches and gradually add or remove certain instructions (both team and players') that would be logically expected to improve your team's performance. The same goes for roles and duties - make sure they are well balanced.

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have you considered switching to a 4-4-2? it will create more presence in the box during crosses, and will stretch your opposition as your recycling passes get a bit longer (since there is no AM to link up the forwards with the midfield, or no 3 crowded midfielders recycling the ball between themselves on 5 square meters). it doesn't have to be structured, defensive, long ball or "English", and if you are confident in your players' individual abilities (or simply no longer care about losing once in a while if it is an interesting game) you can create a tactic that encourages a faster and more individual based play than a 4-3-3.

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On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 22:20, shadster said:

probably both are correct on the right context

This is probably the most important thing anyone can say on this subject.  Context is everything.  It's impossible to say always do this or always do that because nothing will always work.

So have different tools in your armory and use them in different situations.  But before you employ one of your tools you have to have a sound base from which to build and understand how the match in question is playing out.  So for example, personally I tend to favour adding creativity to my side if I'm having problems against an organised defence, so my tactical systems don't tend to have huge amounts of creativity to begin with.  Not always the case of course and if I start with loads of creativity and it doesn't work then I need a plan B or C.  But that's part and parcel of understanding your system and the match.

(For those wondering how I add creativity, many ways - simply subbing on a more creative player; changing a (or more than one) role or duty; messing around with PIs or TIs; and prior to FM19, mucking about with Team Shape.  Also worth noting sometimes it's necessary to adjust other players as well in order to take full advantage of the more creative player).

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8 hours ago, itay.bing said:

have you considered switching to a 4-4-2? it will create more presence in the box during crosses, and will stretch your opposition as your recycling passes get a bit longer (since there is no AM to link up the forwards with the midfield, or no 3 crowded midfielders recycling the ball between themselves on 5 square meters). it doesn't have to be structured, defensive, long ball or "English", and if you are confident in your players' individual abilities (or simply no longer care about losing once in a while if it is an interesting game) you can create a tactic that encourages a faster and more individual based play than a 4-3-3.

I have.. on FM 19 didn't try yet, and I will, but on previous versions, I tried, and was never happy with that. Again,not blaming game, I just felt all the time I hadn't enough control on mildfield playing with just two men. I would love to sort out a 4-4-2 tactic, as I don't remember to play on any FM with that tactic on a regular basis. The only tactic I used with great results in the past with more than one striker was a 3-5-2. But I will definitly try a 4-4-2 again this year.

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Everything that @herne79 and @Experienced Defender have suggested is spot on. And context is everything with what you want to achieve. I for one believe that this year the game has achieved something that wasn't there last year. You could hammer nearly anyone last season just by camping and pummeling them into submission. I totally lost count of the number of matches I was playing on overload for 90mins with camping in opponents halves. It reached a point where it bordered on the ludicrous. There was simply no payback for being defensive. It was either attack or submit. FM19 has finally forced people to pay a price, granted possession centric tactics that are camping for 90mins almost cry out for something special from their players, and when your messi's and ronaldo's can't seem to deliver the goods, its natural to feel let down.

Having said that plenty of people are still finding success with top tier sides so how do you get this done? Experienced defender is right on all counts. For years i have been advocating developing a system of play. Your tactic should either be so good that it can camp, counter and overload at the same time without you having to do anything or you need to come up with plans. While one can argue that you shouldn't have to change tactics, one can also argue that this can be the difference between 3 points and 

Great teams can sit and force others to play into their styles, however, you may find matches where teams simply don't want to play against you. They could decide to park two buses in front of their goals and tell the other team to try and break them down. This can now be done in FM19 with the way roles and duties now work with the new defensive shape settings in FM19. Roles and duties have always been important, but most people forget that when they create their tactics. In fact, the common denominator i see in most tactics is a desire to set them up for scoring goals first. I can see really adventurous roles, and when i ask people its to score goals.

First set them up for defending well. Define the roles you want defending, and this can even change in a game. If you notice the AI switching to a 424 with 5 minutes to go, do you persist in your attacking wingback based narrow system? That would be utterly suicidal. When the AI does change its system you need to know how that can affect your own system.

So if you are trying to break a side down thats hunkered into a defensive shape, what can you do?

Personally I opt to make changes only based on what i see.

Am I getting good possession in my third and midfield but failing to create a lot of possession in the opponent's third? This is important, cos it could also mean that while we have most of the ball, we are essentially not getting inside their half very well.

Am i camping but the final pass or the final penetration pass not really happening? This is vital cos it could reflect that the opposition may have set themselves up for me to fail. I do that to the AI all the time, the AI can also do it to us. Whenever i play narrow i want the opposition going down the flanks so they commit more and leave themselves vulnerable.

Whenever i make changes to break down defensive sides, i need to determine if the changes can make me more vulnerable. Sometimes I opt to change mentality, this causes a small shift up in a lot of things. And at times i just go from positive to very attacking. 

Sometimes I make a player change.

Sometimes i decide to draw them out and hit them over the top with a counter.

The fact is, that your tactic can do all of that if you plan for it to. At the moment however, you have a 4231 that is very aggressive and you have an IF based attack that will see you flood the middle and you are depending on two wingbacks then to give you width, but you are also telling your team find space for through passes while you push the other team deep into their own half by playing with a high line and an aggressive LOE. And that AF up top, he is standing on the shoulder of the last defender all the time.  Can you not see that your tactic in itself has no Plan A, B or C? There are ways to design a tactic that is a 4231 which can draw teams out give them the space they need to play and still be merciless in how it attacks them. I could also say the same about @Tunes10system. Both of your systems are thinking about how to score goals and not on how you are setting your team up during a quick defensive transition.

 

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Love the discussion guys but maybe we are a little tactic-centric when we find ourselves up against the ME nullifying what was working previously.

 

I have been having a similar issue with a Spurs save I was doing playing a gegenpress 4-2-3-1. I tried changing roles, players, instructions, formations and wasn’t getting anywhere. In the end I realised what I was doing wasn’t working and took a different approach and used Training. If I was coming up against a team I thought would just park the bus I would focus on attacking movement match prep before games and the boost I got from this seemed to overcome the changes the ME had made.

 

In this version I have made a concerted effort to simplify my approach and use all the tools available in the game to get the results I want and have been much more successful for it. And in the end this is a much better representation as it is generally the team that executes better that gets the 3 points.

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9 horas atrás, Rashidi disse:

Everything that @herne79 and @Experienced Defender have suggested is spot on. And context is everything with what you want to achieve. I for one believe that this year the game has achieved something that wasn't there last year. You could hammer nearly anyone last season just by camping and pummeling them into submission. I totally lost count of the number of matches I was playing on overload for 90mins with camping in opponents halves. It reached a point where it bordered on the ludicrous. There was simply no payback for being defensive. It was either attack or submit. FM19 has finally forced people to pay a price, granted possession centric tactics that are camping for 90mins almost cry out for something special from their players, and when your messi's and ronaldo's can't seem to deliver the goods, its natural to feel let down.

Having said that plenty of people are still finding success with top tier sides so how do you get this done? Experienced defender is right on all counts. For years i have been advocating developing a system of play. Your tactic should either be so good that it can camp, counter and overload at the same time without you having to do anything or you need to come up with plans. While one can argue that you shouldn't have to change tactics, one can also argue that this can be the difference between 3 points and 

Great teams can sit and force others to play into their styles, however, you may find matches where teams simply don't want to play against you. They could decide to park two buses in front of their goals and tell the other team to try and break them down. This can now be done in FM19 with the way roles and duties now work with the new defensive shape settings in FM19. Roles and duties have always been important, but most people forget that when they create their tactics. In fact, the common denominator i see in most tactics is a desire to set them up for scoring goals first. I can see really adventurous roles, and when i ask people its to score goals.

First set them up for defending well. Define the roles you want defending, and this can even change in a game. If you notice the AI switching to a 424 with 5 minutes to go, do you persist in your attacking wingback based narrow system? That would be utterly suicidal. When the AI does change its system you need to know how that can affect your own system.

So if you are trying to break a side down thats hunkered into a defensive shape, what can you do?

Personally I opt to make changes only based on what i see.

Am I getting good possession in my third and midfield but failing to create a lot of possession in the opponent's third? This is important, cos it could also mean that while we have most of the ball, we are essentially not getting inside their half very well.

Am i camping but the final pass or the final penetration pass not really happening? This is vital cos it could reflect that the opposition may have set themselves up for me to fail. I do that to the AI all the time, the AI can also do it to us. Whenever i play narrow i want the opposition going down the flanks so they commit more and leave themselves vulnerable.

Whenever i make changes to break down defensive sides, i need to determine if the changes can make me more vulnerable. Sometimes I opt to change mentality, this causes a small shift up in a lot of things. And at times i just go from positive to very attacking. 

Sometimes I make a player change.

Sometimes i decide to draw them out and hit them over the top with a counter.

The fact is, that your tactic can do all of that if you plan for it to. At the moment however, you have a 4231 that is very aggressive and you have an IF based attack that will see you flood the middle and you are depending on two wingbacks then to give you width, but you are also telling your team find space for through passes while you push the other team deep into their own half by playing with a high line and an aggressive LOE. And that AF up top, he is standing on the shoulder of the last defender all the time.  Can you not see that your tactic in itself has no Plan A, B or C? There are ways to design a tactic that is a 4231 which can draw teams out give them the space they need to play and still be merciless in how it attacks them. I could also say the same about @Tunes10system. Both of your systems are thinking about how to score goals and not on how you are setting your team up during a quick defensive transition.

 

Rashidi (I know you prefer Éder Militão as a libero attack, I’ve seen your video of fcporto in bustthenet :p) and @Experienced Defender, thank you both for your responses.

it’s a pleasure to read your posts all the time.

This second season is driving me crazy but i’ll keep try something different ;)

Edited by Tunes10

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Had the same problems and have tried everything, from different mentalities, lower block, high pressing, different roles. The game feels so random, I easily outperform big clubs I can even have more possession against them but it is so hard to watch games against defensive teams when they start hiding the ball and dominate possession, there's simply not much you can do. I win in most cases but scoring after 20th corner or yet another cross is just not fun. After reading what other people here say and I agree, I decided to quit playing until the next patch. It's just not fun easily outplaying big clubs and watching how every cross and shot gets blocked against teams that play defensive against you, 

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20 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Everything that @herne79 and @Experienced Defender have suggested is spot on. And context is everything with what you want to achieve. I for one believe that this year the game has achieved something that wasn't there last year. You could hammer nearly anyone last season just by camping and pummeling them into submission. I totally lost count of the number of matches I was playing on overload for 90mins with camping in opponents halves. It reached a point where it bordered on the ludicrous. There was simply no payback for being defensive. It was either attack or submit. FM19 has finally forced people to pay a price, granted possession centric tactics that are camping for 90mins almost cry out for something special from their players, and when your messi's and ronaldo's can't seem to deliver the goods, its natural to feel let down.

Having said that plenty of people are still finding success with top tier sides so how do you get this done? Experienced defender is right on all counts. For years i have been advocating developing a system of play. Your tactic should either be so good that it can camp, counter and overload at the same time without you having to do anything or you need to come up with plans. While one can argue that you shouldn't have to change tactics, one can also argue that this can be the difference between 3 points and 

Great teams can sit and force others to play into their styles, however, you may find matches where teams simply don't want to play against you. They could decide to park two buses in front of their goals and tell the other team to try and break them down. This can now be done in FM19 with the way roles and duties now work with the new defensive shape settings in FM19. Roles and duties have always been important, but most people forget that when they create their tactics. In fact, the common denominator i see in most tactics is a desire to set them up for scoring goals first. I can see really adventurous roles, and when i ask people its to score goals.

First set them up for defending well. Define the roles you want defending, and this can even change in a game. If you notice the AI switching to a 424 with 5 minutes to go, do you persist in your attacking wingback based narrow system? That would be utterly suicidal. When the AI does change its system you need to know how that can affect your own system.

So if you are trying to break a side down thats hunkered into a defensive shape, what can you do?

Personally I opt to make changes only based on what i see.

Am I getting good possession in my third and midfield but failing to create a lot of possession in the opponent's third? This is important, cos it could also mean that while we have most of the ball, we are essentially not getting inside their half very well.

Am i camping but the final pass or the final penetration pass not really happening? This is vital cos it could reflect that the opposition may have set themselves up for me to fail. I do that to the AI all the time, the AI can also do it to us. Whenever i play narrow i want the opposition going down the flanks so they commit more and leave themselves vulnerable.

Whenever i make changes to break down defensive sides, i need to determine if the changes can make me more vulnerable. Sometimes I opt to change mentality, this causes a small shift up in a lot of things. And at times i just go from positive to very attacking. 

Sometimes I make a player change.

Sometimes i decide to draw them out and hit them over the top with a counter.

The fact is, that your tactic can do all of that if you plan for it to. At the moment however, you have a 4231 that is very aggressive and you have an IF based attack that will see you flood the middle and you are depending on two wingbacks then to give you width, but you are also telling your team find space for through passes while you push the other team deep into their own half by playing with a high line and an aggressive LOE. And that AF up top, he is standing on the shoulder of the last defender all the time.  Can you not see that your tactic in itself has no Plan A, B or C? There are ways to design a tactic that is a 4231 which can draw teams out give them the space they need to play and still be merciless in how it attacks them. I could also say the same about @Tunes10system. Both of your systems are thinking about how to score goals and not on how you are setting your team up during a quick defensive transition.

 

Again, as I said it already, I agree with you. I don't really like the instructions I'm using, as I never was a fan of this more extreme instructions. But, true is, I want to win games, and as of now,that's the only way I find against those defensive teams. I tried to make some changes, to test again. I played against Rio Ave with this setup: 

183343562_Screenshot2018-11-2419_21_27.thumb.png.c98a4abda4db66799fee65631a8213d2.png

So, I put defensive line back to normal, I lowered LOE, I lowered tempo, I lowered pressure, and removed pass to space instruction.

The result:

2104861720_Screenshot2018-11-2419_23_06.thumb.png.baeec9f3d9c6cdbf29fef56bdf92d7e3.png

Same as always I try to play that way, lots of shots and a draw or a 1-0. And don't get me wrong,I know the problem is not the instructions. It almost certantly is the roles and dutys I choose,but currently,I cannot identify and correct those problems easily, as my knowledge of game is not that good. So I will try different combinations to try to sort that out.

 

 

Edited by shadster

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First, I think it is just normal in practical football games that stronger team find it difficult to score against a defensive team. I don't think lower down your engage line or definsive line helps as when the opposite team are cautious, you should not expect them to give you open space behind them, to do this will only give your opposite team more pocession, which is just what they want. I also think that higher tempo may not always helps, as the real problem is that your main attacking method ineffective, not the tempo. Make the tempo too high may cause losing the ball frequently. 

  I think one solution may be you take on more technical players with good dribbling ability and flair, using more dribbling to defeat their defense. Because it may be very hard to drag them away from defensive position by moving and passing, so try more direct attacking ways to create space yourself. The opposite team may find that they can to very little to resist the dribbling if they don't have good overall defensive ability.

  Also you should decide which area is more effective to explore. Usually, the opposite team focus their defence in the middle of the pitch, so try to play wider, with mixed or direct passing, combined with more dribbling. I think that may help.

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在 ‎2018‎年‎11‎月‎18‎日 在 PM3点35分, BadanieLuck说:

This is just one of those myths that gets spread around here on the forums all the time. It might have worked for older ME but there is barely any truth to it anymore. Let's take the example from the OP. He tries to strangle the opposition, wants to force them into an error during their buildup and win the ball back high up the pitch to create chances with 1-2 quick passes deep in the opposition half. This is common practice for dominating teams in the real world such as Benfica.

Now let say OP follows the advice against the opposition above, what will happen?
Tondela will most likely play a cautious/defensive mentality, so barely any risks, barely any players that will actively push forward. Just look at the formation. The FBs are in a defending role, won't push forward. At least one DM is playing with a defend duty (Andreazzi) while the other one might push higher up, but most likely won't advance much either. In fact, most of their players won't take any unnecessary risks. So what's the outcome if OP retreats his players a bit? They realise the quick counter is not on, but we can easily move the ball around in our on lines. Essentially your are giving the opposition just more time on the ball.

At some point, some of the Tondela players might have pushed up a bit. OP has his players win the ball back deeper into his half so the forum advice now says "Great, the quick counter attack is on". It's not. Again, defensive mentality, barely any players that push forward. OPs advanced players are just hopelessly outnumbered and many of Tondelas players are quickly in their respective positions again as the don't venture forward making the quick transition almost pointless.

So the advice to retreat your players a bit is just a myth imo that gets thrown around here. I tried it in many saves over the years with many teams and many different formation and I'm clearly not the only when you look at the history of the posts here. The only thing that that achieves is giving the opposition more time on the ball ergo you have less time to break them down, they get a bit of a breather, less likely to make mistakes and the game will end 0-0.

I agree a lot.

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18 hours ago, Dr.Y said:

I also think that higher tempo may not always helps, as the real problem is that your main attacking method ineffective, not the tempo. Make the tempo too high may cause losing the ball frequently. 

:thup:

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First of all, thanks for all contributions. Even those I don't direct answer or quote, I've been reading and taking in consideration the advices. And I want to clarify one thing, I know that is supposed to be challeging to beat those defensive teams, that some games it is a struggle and we are not supposed to win all games 4-0.

Now, I made some changes, mainly to team instructions:

1823386239_Screenshot2018-11-2521_35_25.thumb.png.2732357f6d5ae73a2de2d45bb1d47207.png

Now I start games on slighty higher tempo, I lowered LOE, lowered pressing and removed tigh marking, as I really don't know if it does good or not for my team.  If the game is tigh against those teams, I usually increase the width, the tempo, and ask the team to be more expressive. 

Now, roles and dutys. The changes I made, is due to players suiting the roles and dutys, as this is an area of game where I must get better, specially foward positions, I don't know how to create the plans B, C and D that @Rashidi wrote (and well). 

Last two games I played that way against ultra defensive teams, I won both 2-0, with a ton of shots... away game I made 43 shots, home game 33. The concern here,is that I only made 26 shots on goal.

Edited by shadster

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@Rashidi loved what you said here wanted to know what your plan a,b,c would be if using the preset gengenpress?

 

i use that start off great then suddenly middle of the season get nothing but draws or 1 goal losses

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On 25/11/2018 at 21:51, shadster said:

Last two games I played that way against ultra defensive teams, I won both 2-0, with a ton of shots... away game I made 43 shots, home game 33. The concern here,is that I only made 26 shots on goal.

This is where you need to consider how to make better quality chances rather than quantity. 

Does your roles+duties look to be working or hindering each other? Do players have traits that can change how the role/tactic plays out?

Would playing with urgency/risk by lowering mentality help if your players are able to break down organized defences? 

Would giving up possession and letting opponents push out then attacking with lots of urgency/risk to try and get behind them to get a pullback/cross/shot before they're all back and organized.

This is why there's no one right answer, in the end its down to what the players can do, which depends on how you've built your team.  Tactically you can help them but if you have limited options player wise then tactically you'll be limited, unless you put them in situations they aren't good at or they're generic all round players. 

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10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

This is where you need to consider how to make better quality chances rather than quantity. 

Does your roles+duties look to be working or hindering each other? Do players have traits that can change how the role/tactic plays out?

Would playing with urgency/risk by lowering mentality help if your players are able to break down organized defences? 

Would giving up possession and letting opponents push out then attacking with lots of urgency/risk to try and get behind them to get a pullback/cross/shot before they're all back and organized.

This is why there's no one right answer, in the end its down to what the players can do, which depends on how you've built your team.  Tactically you can help them but if you have limited options player wise then tactically you'll be limited, unless you put them in situations they aren't good at or they're generic all round players. 

Do you see a blatant error or conflict on roles and duties I have, specially on mildfield and front?

Edited by shadster

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1 minute ago, shadster said:

Do you see a blatant error on roles and duties I have, specially on mildfield and front?

2x IF-S, AP-S and a MEZ-S is a lot of players in/around the edge of the box.  They could be making it easy for opponents to just sit narrow, leaving only the 2xWB-S as options or a pot shot from range.  On a Positive mentality they might lack patience to wait for an option to open if the initial attack isn't quick enough to create a chance before opponents get back.  Is this what you see?

This is purely me surmising from the 46 shots stat you gave, though 26 on target is actually pretty good (more than 50% is good imo).

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Yes, I see that, a lot of players around  the box,my attacking is like an Handball match on that kind of games. And just to get right, it was not 26 on target of 46. It was 26 on goal, but it was the sum of two games. It was 76 shots tried, 26 on goal.

 

On a offtopic sidenote, I'm still doing much better than Benfica in real life, and don't know if that makes me smile or cry! Ok, cry... :(

Edited by shadster

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I’m hardly someone to give advice here (I came because I have the same problem - who doesn’t?) but one extremely simple thing I have found helpful, but which is often forgotten, is to turn off highlights and watch the game live.

As those wiser than me have said context is key and there’s no single answer. So watch the game, there’s your context.

Are your moves breaking down through rushed passing, or pointless long shots? Then slow down your tempo, work ball into box.

Or are you constantly recycling possession or having crosses blocked? Then up tempo, early crosses, more direct passing.

I also particularly like to give my fullbacks more direct passing and hit more crosses to break down a defensive block. 

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@shadster i'm a bit unsure about coming back into this thread given one or two things...  I can't stop myself pointing something out though.  Maybe it helps, I dunno. :cool:

In your very first post you were doing some things which I'm going to highlight that you're still doing.

  • Mentality is still positive.
  • You are still counter pressing.
  • Plus high defensive line.
  • Intense pressing
  • Preventing goalkeeper from distributing to their defenders (allow their defenders to get on the ball mate :D)

With a very good team against weak opposition you are going to make them go into a shell.  You're going into repeated patterns of play.

All still said with good intention.

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8 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

@shadster i'm a bit unsure about coming back into this thread given one or two things...  I can't stop myself pointing something out though.  Maybe it helps, I dunno. :cool:

In your very first post you were doing some things which I'm going to highlight that you're still doing.

  • Mentality is still positive.
  • You are still counter pressing.
  • Plus high defensive line.
  • Intense pressing
  • Preventing goalkeeper from distributing to their defenders (allow their defenders to get on the ball mate :D)

With a very good team against weak opposition you are going to make them go into a shell.  You're going into repeated patterns of play.

All still said with good intention.

I find that when i use the generic 4-1-4-1 DM Wide gegenpress I do awesome then midway through the season everyone just his me on the counter and I either draw or lose by 1 goal. Any suggestions what changes to make to the gegenpress when coming up against teams like that ?

 

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8 hours ago, Morphiushell said:

I find that when i use the generic 4-1-4-1 DM Wide gegenpress I do awesome then midway through the season everyone just his me on the counter and I either draw or lose by 1 goal. Any suggestions what changes to make to the gegenpress when coming up against teams like that ?

It might be a fitness issue.  The style seems to tire players quickly and cause injuries.

Something I think worth noting about the Gegenpress and both Tiki-taka presets is in the "in possession" section(s).  Every time it has you either fairly or extremely narrow.  This is because the in-possession phase precedes the transition-to-defence phase and it is important that the players stay connected (for similar reasons each sports a high defensive line) if you're counter-pressing.  This is so that players can easily double up and support each other in the counter-press.  It is almost certainly also why (narrow) formations like 41212 diamond are recommended.  Pressing is normally  centralised from in to out.

I'm going to highlight that in @shadster's last tactic he posted (and boy must he think I'm picking on him) that he was playing on positive mentality - naturally a wider set up - and he'd unticked being narrow in possession but he's still counter-pressing.  It might only be a small thing but I'd say narrowness + counter-press are joined for a reason.

Edited by Robson 07

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@Robson 07, your contributions are very welcome, as everybody else, and I'm not thinking that you are picking on me. You see some things on my setup that you can cleary see they are wrong. Thanks to point them out, I will try to fix them. If I were good at this, I woudn't be here asking for help. And reading all opinions is important to learn. The other thing you adressed before, I think you didn´t like some things I wrote on FM 18 season, but all I wrote, was to try one of two things.. or to learn or to try to help. Every time someone helps me I'm gratefull, and if people show me I'm not right on something I point out on being wrong, I accept it.

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I came back to the topic, to give an update and try to discuss some new things.. 

After reading all suggestions,I changed some things, and truth is I saw improvements. Sure there's still some streches of matches that it come back, but those defensive teams are supposed to be difficult to beat sometimes.

Now, I started a new season at the same time new patch came out. And, as I like to change things a little bit,so teams have to face new challenges against me, I changed some things on roles, dutys and TI. Nothing drastic, some tweaks.

965691760_Screenshot2018-12-1320_24_13.thumb.png.6ce550ed75a9fbfe7cb288538a92983c.png

The TI's, I previously had shorter pass added, but I removed that, and removed counter when possession won, as well. Against bigger clubs, I put defensive line on normal, and put pressing back to slighty more urgent. 

The roles and dutys, Gelson Fernandes is good at BBM, but that role combined with his style, results on a ton of long shots! And with mezzalla, he shoots less from distance. The RMD, I don't have an explanation, it's only to try something new.

Now, on my last game, I had a great result, team played great.

1257028633_Screenshot2018-12-1320_24_52.thumb.png.c81361479f4152c7d86abf31c52d0b0a.png

The formations:

281200608_Screenshot2018-12-1320_26_27.thumb.png.31857dad60fe99977f6d8b8a7efc28c9.png

The stats:

2087806451_Screenshot2018-12-1320_27_43.thumb.png.19d1be9c7dabe3b1efa14c3592b0d676.png

I'm not a fanatic of possession, but I like to have some control on the game, and those possession stats made me think. As you can see, it was a great game for me, the shots they made were on the last 20 min of game, when I had the game more than won.

But it makes sense that oposiotion had 64% of possession? I know they play on defensive mentality, and it helps, but this kind of stats are new to me, so they must be related to changes I made. But, removing counter, I don't play at high tempo, and have the defensive line and pressing higher, exactly to try get the ball sooner, than later. So,the question I make, the roles and dutys I choose have such a big influence on possession? Asking, just to try to understand.

Edited by shadster

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