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[Help/FM19] 4-1-4-1 DM

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Hello everyone,

Im having real trouble with my tactic and need some advice.

kk.thumb.jpg.2ce3cf48fd7425699a41908430d237cb.jpg

Only PI's:

Left IF - Stay wider

Striker - Roam from position

 

My idea: 

RB Overlap for some crosses

MCL - Underlap for 1on1 with keeper or to cross to striker for tap in

IF's - Through balls to Striker and Mezzala

Pressing like gegenpressing but not that extreme

 

I get alot of shots from inside the box, all are shots saved or off target, some blocked. I almost never score them, and my players have like 13/14 composure, 15/16 finishing, 12/13 decisions.

I know i shouldnt shoot 9 times on target and expect 9 goals, but in almost every match i cant seem to score except from a corner or from a cross (and thats like 1 goal every 5 games if im lucky)

i attack, attack, attack and no goals...

 

and my defence, if i make it deep im conceding alot from crosses, if i make it normal or higher im conceding from long balls over defence.

i changed my pressing urgency and line too, to match my defensive line, but same result. concentration from defenders average 13/14, anticipation 13/14. speed 12

 

im starting to rip my hair off my head, cant get anything near the football i want to see my team play, except for that RB crossing.

i just want to see them play short passing with movement (One Twos/tiki taka/wtv) and that killer ball from IF's and AP. Oh, and score at least 1 of the 9 shots from inside the box they have almost every game.

 

PPM for IF's are likes to cut inside, try killer balls, and one twos.

PPM for AP is just try killer balls

 

Except for the IF's and AP, i dont mind changing some or all roles.

 

Thank you !

 

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Your tactic is strangling your opponent to much, forcing them in their own box leaving little space for the plays you want. And with like 8 enemies inside their box getting shots of that arent blocked or easily saved is much harder. Combined with to many playmakers and to little actual finishers in my opinion (your whole mid field are playmakers and both your IFs with those traits are more playmakers than finishers as well), and its not much of a surprise you are struggling to get goals.

I would start switching some of the playmakers into other rolls. If you want to keep the AP, I would atleast change the Meza to something ells, and one IF to attack. Maybe get rid of try killer balls often on your IFs as well, seems a wierd trait for them.

And you need to let the enemy play more to create space. So engage them further down the pitch, play wider, or/and play more risky with higher tempo and different passing style. Its easy to get high possession and a lot of shots on goal, but that doesn't mean you are actually doing anything with it. 

And do you really need all those instructions? It feels you checked everything, which just makes your tactic to complicated to understand. You should really start with a basic tactic with minimal instructions.

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I think you've gone a bit mad on the instructions and the roles+duties you've picked doesn't fit how you want to play.

  1. Underlap Left - You have a IF-S coming inside (even if you tell him to Play Wider he will come inside) but you already have a MEZ-A trying to use that area or go inside-out.  Those 3 left sided players I think are all trying to do a similar job in a similar area so making it easy for opponents.
  2. All your instructions are possession orientated but then all of your midfield will try risky passes and typically they'll only have one option the PF-A making runs.
  3. You have a natural overlap with the CWB-A and the IF-S, using the TI to Overlap Right will make that CWB even more attacking and the IF-S hold up the ball to give him more time to get past him.  How good is your team at converting crosses?
  4. Your pressing as hard and as high as you can, how is that ST going to have space to make runs into if its effective?  Even if we say he's occupying the CBs for the wide forwards to have space potentially between FB-CB your telling the team to play narrow and have roles that play narrow.  Only that CWB is giving width, everything else is either starting inside or moving inside.

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1 hora atrás, Synx disse:

Your tactic is strangling your opponent to much, forcing them in their own box leaving little space for the plays you want. And with like 8 enemies inside their box getting shots of that arent blocked or easily saved is much harder. Combined with to many playmakers and to little actual finishers in my opinion (your whole mid field are playmakers and both your IFs with those traits are more playmakers than finishers as well), and its not much of a surprise you are struggling to get goals..

My first thought on that line of engagement was not to make the opponnent stay on their box, but to make them not play from defence and make them do a long ball to clear it.

 

1 hora atrás, Synx disse:

I would start switching some of the playmakers into other rolls. If you want to keep the AP, I would atleast change the Meza to something ells, and one IF to attack. Maybe get rid of try killer balls often on your IFs as well, seems a wierd trait for them.

And you need to let the enemy play more to create space. So engage them further down the pitch, play wider, or/and play more risky with higher tempo and different passing style. Its easy to get high possession and a lot of shots on goal, but that doesn't mean you are actually doing anything with it. 

And do you really need all those instructions? It feels you checked everything, which just makes your tactic to complicated to understand. You should really start with a basic tactic with minimal instructions.

I dont like my wingers on attack, as it looks like they just dont give a ** about defending, but i may change the DM and the mezzala so i get less playmakers.

When i let the other team "play more", by getting my defense deeper or my line of engagement deeper, i start to concede from crosses and through balls too much, this was the combination of lines i find the least goals suffered.

the instructions part, if i untick most of them i dont even shoot. 

 

Thank you for you response !

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1 hora atrás, summatsupeer disse:

I think you've gone a bit mad on the instructions and the roles+duties you've picked doesn't fit how you want to play.

  1. Underlap Left - You have a IF-S coming inside (even if you tell him to Play Wider he will come inside) but you already have a MEZ-A trying to use that area or go inside-out.  Those 3 left sided players I think are all trying to do a similar job in a similar area so making it easy for opponents.
  2. All your instructions are possession orientated but then all of your midfield will try risky passes and typically they'll only have one option the PF-A making runs.
  3. You have a natural overlap with the CWB-A and the IF-S, using the TI to Overlap Right will make that CWB even more attacking and the IF-S hold up the ball to give him more time to get past him.  How good is your team at converting crosses?
  4. Your pressing as hard and as high as you can, how is that ST going to have space to make runs into if its effective?  Even if we say he's occupying the CBs for the wide forwards to have space potentially between FB-CB your telling the team to play narrow and have roles that play narrow.  Only that CWB is giving width, everything else is either starting inside or moving inside.

1. Maybe instead of mezzala an CM(A)? my idea was the IF get the ball wider, then when he cuts inside he has the mezzala underlaping so he can play that through ball to him (kinda like ronaldinho and that "no look" pass of him when he played left winger for barcelona)

2. I only find my AP doing that, and tipically is to my RB left alone on the wing.

3.That is true, most of the times i get that flank exposed and my CD on the right covers it alongside the DM, but not that effective. But i find my RB doing a lot of work, basically, my only goals are from his crosses, or corners.

4. My aim there was just to make the opponnent defensive line have to try long balls or lose it.

 

Thank you !

 

Edited by ytpme420

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So, i did some changes you guys talked about...

1.thumb.jpg.ade220adc674be7cc14f357c818f36a5.jpg Started way more shooting from outside the box, less crosses from the RB. Conceding long through balls. lost 4-0

 

Then i changed it to this

 

2.thumb.jpg.337e3a2eb4c0addbb30e47c67c1a4bf0.jpgHad 4 shots all game, all 4 off target, only 1 from inside the box, wasted all my crosses. Conceding from crosses. lost 2-0

 

Then to this:

3.thumb.jpg.eb2df24adbdda228bb1217a234ab00ee.jpgHad 0 shots, less then 45% possession. Conceding from crosses and through balls. Lost 5-0

 

Got sacked

 

every change was less and less the football i want to see, i know i need familiarity but that wasnt a big deal since it wasnt that low. Changed IF on left to attack, but that way the guy doesnt defend and my LB was allways 1on2, and my 5 wingers on my team are IF's

guess i gotta go 3 strikers not to get sacked in this game 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, ytpme420 said:

My first thought on that line of engagement was not to make the opponnent stay on their box, but to make them not play from defence and make them do a long ball to clear it.

 

I dont like my wingers on attack, as it looks like they just dont give a ** about defending, but i may change the DM and the mezzala so i get less playmakers.

When i let the other team "play more", by getting my defense deeper or my line of engagement deeper, i start to concede from crosses and through balls too much, this was the combination of lines i find the least goals suffered.

the instructions part, if i untick most of them i dont even shoot. 

 

Thank you for you response !

You got to comprimise somewhere and find another way to overcome your weaknesses. You can't play high up, high pressure, narrow, low speed, extremely controlled, etc, and not expecting teams (especially weaker ones) to just park the buss and go all in on counter attacks. Yeah you are limiting their goal attempts, but at the same time limiting your attack possibilities. You are just turning the enemy goal into a shooting gally and hope one doesn't get blocked by all the people standing in front of it, or stopped by the enemy keeper.

You need to change somethinggl to let the enemy play more, and fix your defenses issues in a different way. If through or over the top balls are a problem, don't use offside trap and get 1 fast defender. For corners you can try to or tightly mark the striker/AMC (target of the crosses) with a tall and strong defender, or have fast full backs on a more defensive role with good tackling and shut down the crosses before they come in. 

If that's just not what you want to do, your best bet is just rely on long shots and set-pieces. Remove work ball in the box, enable play for set-pieces, get some players with good long shots, and train for set-pieces

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16 minutos atrás, Synx disse:

You got to comprimise somewhere and find another way to overcome your weaknesses. You can't play high up, high pressure, narrow, low speed, extremely controlled, etc, and not expecting teams (especially weaker ones) to just park the buss and go all in on counter attacks. Yeah you are limiting their goal attempts, but at the same time limiting your attack possibilities. You are just turning the enemy goal into a shooting gally and hope one doesn't get blocked by all the people standing in front of it, or stopped by the enemy keeper.

You need to change somethinggl to let the enemy play more, and fix your defenses issues in a different way. If through or over the top balls are a problem, don't use offside trap and get 1 fast defender. For corners you can try to or tightly mark the striker/AMC (target of the crosses) with a tall and strong defender, or have fast full backs on a more defensive role with good tackling and shut down the crosses before they come in. 

If that's just not what you want to do, your best bet is just rely on long shots and set-pieces. Remove work ball in the box, enable play for set-pieces, get some players with good long shots, and train for set-pieces

If I do that I’m not playing the football I want, I’m playing the football the ME wants me to play so I can win. My right side isn’t that bad, the left side is where I can’t get that through ball to the MCL, if I play a IF on attack then he gets the ball and not my MCL. If I don’t play an IF, the other roles don’t do want I want them to do.

 

i only ask that type of Ronaldinho “no-look” pass from my left IF to my MCL, through balls from my right IF to my striker and crosses from my RB. And to not let other team play from the back. I can only achieve the crosses from my RB (not that hard, just attack duty) the rest I can’t. I don’t even know what MC roles combine better with IFs and the more I research and ask, the less my team football attracts me.

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1 hour ago, ytpme420 said:

1. Maybe instead of mezzala an CM(A)? my idea was the IF get the ball wider, then when he cuts inside he has the mezzala underlaping so he can play that through ball to him (kinda like ronaldinho and that "no look" pass of him when he played left winger for barcelona)

MEZ doesn't really make underlapping runs and the team instruction is for the wide players.  CM-A might do but the IF-S is more likely to run with it and the CM-A be behind him so will be looking for the ST or AMR.  It still doesn't make sense to have the LB trying to make underlapping runs between the IF-S and MCL.

1 hour ago, ytpme420 said:

2. I only find my AP doing that, and tipically is to my RB left alone on the wing.

I imagine thats because he's the only one with space to run into due to your patient passing team instructions and your defensive plan pinning opponents in.

1 hour ago, ytpme420 said:

3.That is true, most of the times i get that flank exposed and my CD on the right covers it alongside the DM, but not that effective. But i find my RB doing a lot of work, basically, my only goals are from his crosses, or corners.

I dont have an issue with the right flank, its more the middle + left.

1 hour ago, ytpme420 said:

4. My aim there was just to make the opponnent defensive line have to try long balls or lose it.

Thats fine but your defensive + attacking plans need to match.  If you want to pin opponents in thats fine, but if you have a very attacking WB and risk taking in midfield then you might end up with just crosses or long shots as the players are rushing to do something with the ball before space has been created.  Space needs to be created with the ball because of your defensive plan.

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Here, this what i would like to do with my tactic:

Defending:

https://tactical-board.com/animation/11ee14dbca1a0c_bfuk (Press play, right top corner)

 

Attacking:

https://tactical-board.com/animation/fac7e4463905a7_bfuk (Press play, right top corner)

(Maybe LB more upfield than in that animation)

 

How can i achieve this? i know i can achieve the defensive with Support duties, but how can i achieve that attacking movement and passes ?

Edited by ytpme420

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Your defensive shape looks like a 4141 TBH rather than having to use AML+AMR with support duties which then limits your attacking options.

The thing here is your showing what you expect on the left + right which is two separate plans and doesn't show how your making space and occupying defenders for there to be space for those runners.  If your pinning in the opponents with full pitch pressing there won't be a simple pass in behind them like your showing.  If that movement was deeper in your half then there's more chance there space for that quick+direct pass in behind opponents.  With two of the three central midfielders being quite static its a very wing heavy setup, which could create space inside for a switch of play, but your not really setup to do that either or showing that as what you want.

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1 hour ago, ytpme420 said:

If I do that I’m not playing the football I want, I’m playing the football the ME wants me to play so I can win. My right side isn’t that bad, the left side is where I can’t get that through ball to the MCL, if I play a IF on attack then he gets the ball and not my MCL. If I don’t play an IF, the other roles don’t do want I want them to do.

 

i only ask that type of Ronaldinho “no-look” pass from my left IF to my MCL, through balls from my right IF to my striker and crosses from my RB. And to not let other team play from the back. I can only achieve the crosses from my RB (not that hard, just attack duty) the rest I can’t. I don’t even know what MC roles combine better with IFs and the more I research and ask, the less my team football attracts me.

Ok, then let's go over all the parts that doesn't make sense or aren't needed in your main tactic if those are your goals:

Overlap/underlap. Isn't needed at all. Your right WB on attack gets forward enough without the overlap. It just makes the IF on that side hold up the ball. Doubt you want that. And underlap is more if you play an inverted wingback than for your mezella.

Higher defensive line: it feels counterproductive to stopping building up from the back. (much) Higher engage line and (much) higher pressing does that, while the higher defensive line just means their players are closer as well, so longballs are less risky for them.

Playing narrow: just makes the playing field narrow for no reason I would say. Unless you get terrible passers across the board it isn't needed.

Lower tempo: lower tempo means less risky plays, which through balls, one-twos etc. are. 

Work ball in the box: it reduced crosses, and with so little players entering the box, seems a bit counter productive. It's prob better to tell some players to shoot less than enable work ball in the box.

So I would start by changing those. Drop the under and overlap, ddop work ball on the box, drop the defensive line to standard, tempo and wide to standard, and see how that is. 

Than your player rolls. 

What you want from the left IF supp sounds more like a wide AP. Its hard to find a good player for that position, so the IF supp is alright. Give it make more risks (if that's possible) and try killer balls etc. 

The mezella is fine I would say. I play one with an IF(s) as well and they don't overlap that much. The mezza requires requires a good player though or it seems it doesn't do much. Gets forward when possible is a good trait for him. 

The IF(s) on the other side could be on attack to create another attack point. It would leave that wide-side a bit open, but if you are willing to change your AP to carrilero it's alright.

Then you just got to look at your defence. If you got fast defenders with good vision, and decisions, you can try playing with offside trap. You can tell your IFs to man mark their fullbacks as well. It can sometimes hurt their attacking ability and fast switches but helps while defending. 

You will be a bit more vulnerable in defence, but you created much more space for your attacking plays.

Edit: for MC combos you want a good balance between roamers and holders, and playmakers with risky passes and ones that pass save. Pref one on Def, one on attack, and one on supp. 

What I proposed would have 1 hold playmaker (the DLP), 1 roaming playmaker (the Meza) and one save distribute player (the carrilero or what's it called)

Edited by Synx

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1 hora atrás, summatsupeer disse:

Your defensive shape looks like a 4141 TBH rather than having to use AML+AMR with support duties which then limits your attacking options.

The thing here is your showing what you expect on the left + right which is two separate plans and doesn't show how your making space and occupying defenders for there to be space for those runners.  If your pinning in the opponents with full pitch pressing there won't be a simple pass in behind them like your showing.  If that movement was deeper in your half then there's more chance there space for that quick+direct pass in behind opponents.  With two of the three central midfielders being quite static its a very wing heavy setup, which could create space inside for a switch of play, but your not really setup to do that either or showing that as what you want.

I tried changing my Striker to a F9 and a DLF, but he seems not to press if he isn’t a pressing forward, but maybe he can pull one CD while the MCL goes up ?

 

My best 3 players are a left footed IF, a right footed IF and a AP who doesn’t get above 6.6 rating if he plays other role. Both IF suck at crossing so I don’t use them as wingers. They are great dribblers and have nice vision/pass/flair.

When my left IF gets the ball, the MCL is never trying a run to let that middle space vacated for him, so maybe changing striker role so my MCL goes up more ?

Edited by ytpme420

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So, i loaded back the save, did some changes:

Overlap/underlap removed

Work ball in the box removed

normal passing range

Higher engage line and higher pressing

normal width

normal tempo

normal defensive line

 

changed the MCL to a CM(A) and then to a B2B

the striker i try to use DLF(A), DLF(s), F9

LB from Complete Wingback to Wingback to Fullback

MCR from AP(S) to Roaming playmaker to Carrilero

 

3 matches 3 loses 0 goals 0 play i want to see. 

 

i give up, its to hard for a noob like me, time to go back to fifa

 

thank you anyway guys

ps: can i get my money back? xD

Edited by ytpme420

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I would just hold on for some patches.

 

I was just looking at the Match engine bugs forum, and theres several issues limiting through balls and how strikers dont involve themselves in link up play. Its very depressing to read as these are the same issues im having.

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9 hours ago, ytpme420 said:

1. Maybe instead of mezzala an CM(A)? my idea was the IF get the ball wider, then when he cuts inside he has the mezzala underlaping so he can play that through ball to him (kinda like ronaldinho and that "no look" pass of him when he played left winger for barcelona)

That's more likely to work with APM on support instead of IF on the left. 

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20 hours ago, ytpme420 said:

Hello everyone,

Im having real trouble with my tactic and need some advice.

kk.thumb.jpg.2ce3cf48fd7425699a41908430d237cb.jpg

Only PI's:

Left IF - Stay wider

Striker - Roam from position

 

My idea: 

RB Overlap for some crosses

MCL - Underlap for 1on1 with keeper or to cross to striker for tap in

IF's - Through balls to Striker and Mezzala

Pressing like gegenpressing but not that extreme

 

I get alot of shots from inside the box, all are shots saved or off target, some blocked. I almost never score them, and my players have like 13/14 composure, 15/16 finishing, 12/13 decisions.

I know i shouldnt shoot 9 times on target and expect 9 goals, but in almost every match i cant seem to score except from a corner or from a cross (and thats like 1 goal every 5 games if im lucky)

i attack, attack, attack and no goals...

 

and my defence, if i make it deep im conceding alot from crosses, if i make it normal or higher im conceding from long balls over defence.

i changed my pressing urgency and line too, to match my defensive line, but same result. concentration from defenders average 13/14, anticipation 13/14. speed 12

 

im starting to rip my hair off my head, cant get anything near the football i want to see my team play, except for that RB crossing.

i just want to see them play short passing with movement (One Twos/tiki taka/wtv) and that killer ball from IF's and AP. Oh, and score at least 1 of the 9 shots from inside the box they have almost every game.

 

PPM for IF's are likes to cut inside, try killer balls, and one twos.

PPM for AP is just try killer balls

 

Except for the IF's and AP, i dont mind changing some or all roles.

 

Thank you !

 

That's actually the most aggressive defence I've seen on this forum. HB must have been an option to mitigate the freedom of the two fullbacks, ayee? Two CWB's & one on attacking duty, wow!. CB's must be pissing themselves when a counter attack springs up. Reason for stopper/cover Being? Wouldn't want to be the DLPD in the tactic, cause I'll be tasked with holding the fort (which seems everywher, at the moment) & playmaking duties. 

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Im new at the game, i dont know what roles combine well with what roles, i dont know what roles actually do, despite reading all the descriptions.

I've been searching and searching and searching, and it made me even more confused, i only understand why i need to balance duties, but i dont understand how to combine roles.

For example, i want to use inside forwards, but i have no clue what the midfielders, fullbacks and striker roles should be to combine well  with the IF's and create space.

I know i need 1 defending CM 1 support and 1 attack, but i dont know which one to choose, why is it better a CM attack or a mezzala attack or a AP attack? i have no idea, nor is it explained in the game, i just see me best player for a role that has attack duty and choose it.

I read the descriptions of a role and think "yeah thats what i want this player to do" then i go to a match and its nothing like i imagined him doing.

The game doesnt tell me what roles play nice together or what i should or shouldnt be pairing, so i just test and test, some work some dont, but i can never figure out why it work or doesnt.

 

I think this game is not new player friendly, has with even the preset tactics i struggle to win 1 game (i already now about match fitness, moral, etc.)

its just the tactics part that i dont get

 

Edited by ytpme420

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6 minutes ago, ytpme420 said:

Im new at the game, i dont know what roles combine well with what roles, i dont know what roles actually do, despite reading all the descriptions.

I've been searching and searching and searching, and it made me even more confused, i only understand why i need to balance duties, but i dont understand how to combine roles.

For example, i want to use inside forwards, but i have no clue what the midfielders, fullbacks and striker roles should be to combine well and create space.

I read the descriptions of a role and think "yeah thats what i want this player to do" then i go to a match and its nothing like i imagined him doing.

The game doesnt tell me what roles play nice together or what i should or shouldnt be pairing, so i just test and test, some work some dont, but i can never figure out why it work or doesnt.

The game definitely isn't new player friendly and i also find the community to be new player unfriendly.

They tend to expect you to have studied football all your life and say a lot of generic stuff. Like "It's your tactic" or "play whatever tactic suits your players."

The kind of things that are absolutely no help to someone who doesn't have a tactical understanding of football.

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1 minuto atrás, Damedius disse:

The game definitely isn't new player friendly and i also find the community to be new player unfriendly.

They tend to expect you to have studied football all your life and say a lot of generic stuff. Like "It's your tactic" or "play whatever tactic suits your players."

The kind of things that are absolutely no help to someone who doesn't have a tactical understanding of football.

I appreciate their effort on trying to help me, but like summatsupeer said, for example, that my CWB my Mezzala and IF dont combine well, how am i supposed to know that? there is nothing telling me that they dont work well together and how can i learn what does combine well? My CWB plays with no help in the wing, my IF cuts inside and the mezzala work in the half-space, so why the hell dont they work together ? in my head they do, in the game they dont, and i just cant figure why

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4 minutes ago, ytpme420 said:

I appreciate their effort on trying to help me, but like summatsupeer said, for example, that my CWB my Mezzala and IF dont combine well, how am i supposed to know that? there is nothing telling me that they dont work well together and how can i learn what does combine well? My CWB plays with no help in the wing, my IF cuts inside and the mezzala work in the half-space, so why the hell dont they work together ? in my head they do, in the game they dont, and i just cant figure why

There is an added layer to that.

They might even work in a real world system, the problem is that this is a simulation. So even if it does work in real life, that doesn't mean it will work in game.

That being said Knap has a 4141 tactic you could try.

 

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3 minutos atrás, Damedius disse:

There is an added layer to that.

They might even work in a real world system, the problem is that this is a simulation. So even if it does work in real life, that doesn't mean it will work in game.

That being said Knap has a 4141 tactic you could try.

 

I already did 3 seasons with a downloaded tactic so i could learn other stuff on the game, but i started a new save so i could learn to make my own tactic, but it just made me mad. very mad and i didnt open the game since the last time i posted a screenshot of the tactic

 

but look, that 4-1-4-1 on the left side he has a WB (A) and a CM(A), why would that work if both go up and the IF stays between them like cheese in a sandwich but my CWB and mezzala dont ?

Edited by ytpme420

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24 minutes ago, ytpme420 said:

For example, i want to use inside forwards

What's your exact reason for using IFs? Do you have players whose attributes and PPMs (traits) suggest they should play well in an IF role or you simply like the inside forward as a role, no matter what kind of players you have in your team? And why do you insist on having IF on both flanks? I don't say it's bad idea, just curious to understand your logic.

 

28 minutes ago, ytpme420 said:

I know i need 1 defending CM 1 support and 1 attack, but i dont know which one to choose, why is it better a CM attack or a mezzala attack or a AP attack?

There is no better (or worse) role/duty. You can successfully combine a number of different roles/duties within a single system (formation), but what works great for one team may be disastrous for another, because their players are different. For example, Man Utd as a top team and, say, Huddersfield as a much weaker one can both play in a 4231 formation, but their players' roles and duties will differ, as well as mentality and a number of other settings (tempo, d-line, LOE and so on...).

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13 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

What's your exact reason for using IFs? Do you have players whose attributes and PPMs (traits) suggest they should play well in an IF role or you simply like the inside forward as a role, no matter what kind of players you have in your team? And why do you insist on having IF on both flanks? I don't say it's bad idea, just curious to understand your logic.

Both, im a IF irl in under 16 and i love the role, my irl team plays 2 IF's. But my coach doesnt tell us our "role" he just says i want you to cut inside because you dribble well, i want you to look for X player, i want you to do this and that (he kinda sucks though) and i want to learn has i have fun playing if that makes sense

 i have 4 IF's on my squad (their actual best role) who have cuts inside has they PPM

 

13 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

There is no better (or worse) role/duty. You can successfully combine a number of different roles/duties within a single system (formation), but what works great for one team may be disastrous for another, because their players are different. For example, Man Utd as a top team and, say, Huddersfield as a much weaker one can both play in a 4231 formation, but their players' roles and duties will differ, as well as mentality and a number of other settings (tempo, d-line, LOE and so on...).

I understand this, but i dont have any player who plays the role less then competent, actually the worst in his role is the striker who is only competent as a pressing forward

Edited by ytpme420

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2 hours ago, ytpme420 said:

Im new at the game, i dont know what roles combine well with what roles, i dont know what roles actually do, despite reading all the descriptions.

I've been searching and searching and searching, and it made me even more confused, i only understand why i need to balance duties, but i dont understand how to combine roles.

For example, i want to use inside forwards, but i have no clue what the midfielders, fullbacks and striker roles should be to combine well  with the IF's and create space.

I know i need 1 defending CM 1 support and 1 attack, but i dont know which one to choose, why is it better a CM attack or a mezzala attack or a AP attack? i have no idea, nor is it explained in the game, i just see me best player for a role that has attack duty and choose it.

I read the descriptions of a role and think "yeah thats what i want this player to do" then i go to a match and its nothing like i imagined him doing.

The game doesnt tell me what roles play nice together or what i should or shouldnt be pairing, so i just test and test, some work some dont, but i can never figure out why it work or doesnt.

 

I think this game is not new player friendly, has with even the preset tactics i struggle to win 1 game (i already now about match fitness, moral, etc.)

its just the tactics part that i dont get

 

Fair enough outlook. That's why there's a tactical forum, ayee. Might be a bit Cliche, but 'playing to the strenghts of your players & Team' isn't a bit off the mark. I don't expect you to completely dominante teams like FCB, using a decent side, like maybe Swansea, even though as the person playing, you want that 'unrealistic advantage' so to say. Seems you're already someone that likes soccer, or have watched soccer games, so you must've seen teams you like. Nothing sweeter than getting a tactic you created yourself, than running with downloads, so I won't suggest roles. FM can be a bit complicated, but after a lot of tests & studying other people's tactics on this Forum, you'll get the hang of it.

Big hint: Try recreating styles of teams you fancy. Klopp's Liverpool (I'm a United fan, despise Liverpool, but you'd have to admit, they play, at least last season, a good brand of soccer) or Pep's style. 

Find your Dynamics by working with theirs. Movement of players. Who moves, who stays, how often, how rare. Why does Walker join to Make a relatively tight 'back 3' & Mendy(weak link, really) does what he likes. Fit these players in the role you like. Watch it play out, make tweaks, repeat...till you get the Dynamics you're 'comfortable' with. Buy players to fit your overall vision, the BOOM. I know it's not simple Maths, but it's a good overview. For example: imagine having fullbacks that do whatever they like(roam from position default PI's), you wouldn't want to be the CB's there. So a HB, who acts as a 3rd CB might do alot to help(to an extent). 

2nd hint: Quality players/Top players will deliver, regardless.

Good luck.

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10 hours ago, ytpme420 said:

I appreciate their effort on trying to help me, but like summatsupeer said, for example, that my CWB my Mezzala and IF dont combine well, how am i supposed to know that? there is nothing telling me that they dont work well together and how can i learn what does combine well? My CWB plays with no help in the wing, my IF cuts inside and the mezzala work in the half-space, so why the hell dont they work together ? in my head they do, in the game they dont, and i just cant figure why

The only real way is to play the game and watch what happens on the pitch as much as possible.  At points pause and look at what is happening, would a different duty / role move or change what the player does.  Are they not doing what you want as a team rather than individuals then maybe a team instruction might be needed or not needed.  Make a change and see if the effect (what you actually see rather than results) is what you expected.

If you want to build your team around IFs then have a think about what they do, could you make one attack and one support?  Sometimes its better to use a role/duty that a player isn't comfortable at than use them in one they are, it depends on the tactic.  If both of your IFs are creators and neither is really a scorer then there's a lot of pressure on the forward and with a front 3 not a lot of space in the box.  I'd argue having two IF's and likely a lone forward means you have a front 3 so the rest of the team should be supporting (not just support roles).  A CAR/BWM type player covering and helping a FB/WB behind the IF-A.  A creative and/or bbm type player acting as the 4th attacker and linking play.  Then a back 3 with WBs (523) which would allow very attacking WBs to get forward early and provide width and create space for the IFs. or back 4 with a DM (4141 Wide) so give the CBs shielding but then may need to be less aggressive on the flanks or a flat midfield 3 (433 Wide) which would aid winning the ball in the middle third and give more support centrally.

If both IFs are support then I think your tactic would need to be more possession based, have a look at some of the presets for ideas.  Lots of support duties working the ball around and using there technical and mental abilities to create rather than pace/tempo/directness.  This is where analysing what your players and team overall are good at, is it a team full of quick+technical attackers but poor mentally then possession style won't fit them, if the team is full of technical+mental attackers then trying to play fast+direct won't fit them, even if one forward is quick it could just isolate him if the others can't keep up or catch up.

Be patient, manage your expectations whilst you learn.  Keep it simple and try and spot the effect of your changes.

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kk.jpgSince last night i re-read all the posts people wrote here, did some more research, etc etc etc.

 Even tried LB on Sup RB on Attack to be role opposite to the IF in the same flank, tried every single striker role

 

13 matchs - 10 loses - 3 Draws

53 shots - 9 inside box

2 goals (corners)

 

My striker best performance was under the DLF role... 6.6 rating

My Left IF didnt do nothing all games, i didnt even notice my right IF until he went to take the corners i tought he stayed at home those games

 

My guys, im actually quiting, this is not healthy for me, as i just simply rage at a game and almost hit my computer

 

 

Edited by ytpme420

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On 16/11/2018 at 01:45, ytpme420 said:

I just want to see them play short passing with movement (One Twos/tiki taka/wtv) and that killer ball from IF's and AP.

3

I think you might struggle to achieve this playing a 4-3-3 given the spacing between the front 3. I think a narrow formation such as a narrow diamond, Christmas tree or a 4-2-3-1 Narrow with 3 AMCs might suit this sort of play better.

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Okay, so I'm gonna add to this topic because I'm having the same issue here and need help. I'm not losing, but every goal I have revolves around a penalty, free kick, corner or cross, which is not akin to my play-styles. I wanted my players to play quick one-two dominance. Basically, dominate the game and move the ball quickly, and have the winger as an out, if it's not working, to provide space and the occasional cross. But the plan is to always be thinking forward, and give the opposition no time on the ball.

 As you can see, I don't lose. But the chances not being taken, and the long shots, which aren't really prevalent in these, are endless. For one, if Pogba is not on AP(S), he consistently takes long shots(surely he's smarter than this), even if what I consider as a potential pass is available.

I just pulled up these stats as a potential idea behind my frustration. I mainly think I win because I'm literally Man United.

 

Anyway, it seems that, although they score, I cannot get my Forwards to be consistent. Lukaku has cost me matches because he could not finish a CCC, and the same applies to Rashford. It also seems that they get in on a goal a lot through a hoofed ball over the defence, which is not akin to my playstyle.

I also know De Jong is a bit out of place, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to sign him

 

Anyway, I need help here, to make this team more proficient, and actually to create more chances, as I've been shut down in the easiest matches.

Capture.PNG

vs Chelsea: 0-0

Match vs Chelsea.PNG

vs Galatasaray: 1-0 win

Match vs Galatasaray.PNG

vs Leicester: 1-0 loss

Match vs Leicester.PNG

vs PSV: 1-0 win

Stats vs PSV.PNG

Edited by MatthewS17

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Get a mid table team and you'll lose just like me, i think the problem is the 4-1-4-1

search the tactics shared, almost none use 4-1-4-1, and if they use its some variation to defend or play on top teams

 

before i posted the tactic here i would get 10/11 shots inside the box and 0 goals, why ? because im a mid table team, you actually afford to score one because you are man untd

Edited by ytpme420

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18 hours ago, ytpme420 said:

Both, im a IF irl in under 16 and i love the role, my irl team plays 2 IF's. But my coach doesnt tell us our "role" he just says i want you to cut inside because you dribble well, i want you to look for X player, i want you to do this and that (he kinda sucks though) and i want to learn has i have fun playing if that makes sense

 i have 4 IF's on my squad (their actual best role) who have cuts inside has they PPM

AFAIR, when it comes to the "cut inside", all wide forward roles (AMR/L) except wingers have that PI either as hard-coded (IF) or as a selectable option. So if a wide player has the "cut inside" PPM, he can play not only as IF but also as APM (for example), especially if his stronger foot is opposite to his side of the pitch. In short, when you are deciding which role is the best for a player (or which player would be best for a role), you need to look at his attributes and PPMs (and in some cases his stronger foot as well). In each player's profile you can select all roles and duties available for his position and see which attributes are key for the role/duty and which ones are preferable. Btw, the role the game suggests as the "best" (i.e. "natrural") for a player (the full green circle) is not necessarily really the best, so it can be misleading (sometimes a player can be very good in a role in which the game suggests he would be "unconvincing").

But all this is just a small part of what you need to consider when creating a tactic. There is a lot more to be taken into account. Some players can play equally well in different roles. Some will struggle even in their "best" role. Some will play greatly in a certain tactical system, but will struggle in another regardless of the role you give them. So everything needs to be put into the right context.

You wrote in an earlier post that you want your IF to make the "no-look" passes like Ronaldinho. But is he anywhere near as good a player as Ronaldinho? And even if he is, are his teammates for whom the pass is intended capable of utilizing it? And so on, and so on...

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39 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

AFAIR, when it comes to the "cut inside", all wide forward roles (AMR/L) except wingers have that PI either as hard-coded (IF) or as a selectable option. So if a wide player has the "cut inside" PPM, he can play not only as IF but also as APM (for example), especially if his stronger foot is opposite to his side of the pitch. In short, when you are deciding which role is the best for a player (or which player would be best for a role), you need to look at his attributes and PPMs (and in some cases his stronger foot as well). In each player's profile you can select all roles and duties available for his position and see which attributes are key for the role/duty and which ones are preferable. Btw, the role the game suggests as the "best" (i.e. "natrural") for a player (the full green circle) is not necessarily really the best, so it can be misleading (sometimes a player can be very good in a role in which the game suggests he would be "unconvincing").

But all this is just a small part of what you need to consider when creating a tactic. There is a lot more to be taken into account. Some players can play equally well in different roles. Some will struggle even in their "best" role. Some will play greatly in a certain tactical system, but will struggle in another regardless of the role you give them. So everything needs to be put into the right context.

You wrote in an earlier post that you want your IF to make the "no-look" passes like Ronaldinho. But is he anywhere near as good a player as Ronaldinho? And even if he is, are his teammates for whom the pass is intended capable of utilizing it? And so on, and so on...

I tried almost every role in the game, almost every team instructions combination, almost every thing. I assume this is easier to people who played older versions of the game, but i didnt so i dont have knowlodge of things veteran players consider basic or easy. Only role combination guides i found are from 3/4 years ago, and all search i did on roles and team instructions are "choose how you want your team to play" thats obviously not easy when you never played this game before and have 10000 possible combinations of roles duties team instructions player instructions. I can choose how i want my team to play, but choosing and it being correct is 2 different things. Like AP's stay behind forwards, i use 2 CM and would like both to do that. I can choose them both as AP's, doesnt mean its correct or gonna work, but thats how i want them to play.

Obviously the "everything can work together" its only true if you already know what doesnt. i mean yeah, everything works, you can put a winger in the same flank as a CWB, doesnt mean its correct, but for someone new to the game, how would i know that ? 

The game just describes a role, nothing more. its like having a sniper and choosing from 400 different gun ammo, how would you know what ammo to choose if you never played the game? you are going to choose a pistol ammo for your sniper while other people who play the game for years already know what ammo they should use, and cant understand why you dont.

 

The game should have combination recommendations, or at least not letting you choose 2 incompatible things. because irl a inside forward is never going to dribble the ball straight to a teammate or 2 players are never running side by side like they are holding hands. Im starting to believe, some of the older players dont understand why 2 roles combine well, they just know they combine well, but dont understand why

Edited by ytpme420

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5 hours ago, MatthewS17 said:

Anyway, I need help here, to make this team more proficient, and actually to create more chances, as I've been shut down in the easiest matches.

Capture.PNG

 

Three things stand out to me, tactically the very high press, the IF-A + AF-A and the Shorter+Play Out Of Defence.   Your trying to win the ball high with 2 of 3 forwards trying to make runs in behind but then the passing distance is shorter so less likely to look for them.

My personal preference would be to move the AP to MCR and make him AP-A with more Direct Passing, he can collect from the WB-S / W-S and switch play to the IF-A.  Then the MCL I would have a Herrera type player (CAR-S/BWM-S/BBM) to help cover the IF-A on that flank.  I'd also go for a support duty forward to link play then make runs rather than focusing on the runs so much.  Even if keeping the MEZ-S inside the W-S, with a support forward maybe a MEZ-A can get up and past the ST (but De Jong isn't quick enough imo).  If keeping the fast+technical forward 3 i'd not press so high and just leave passing at default so they can use there legs whilst there's space behind opponents.

With regards to converting chances, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku and Sanchez all have about 15 (or lower) for finishing and composure (in general the main two attributes).  To convert more they really need to improve or need to create cut back/cross type chances that takes keeper out of equation.  You can also try adding Traits so good agile dribbles can round keeper etc.

2 minutes ago, ytpme420 said:

I tried almost every role in the game, almost every team instructions combination, almost every thing...

Your trying random things and expecting immediate results.  I was 2-0 as PSV and came back to 2-2 with zero tactical changes, there goals were individual brilliance and a bit of luck.  I made some subs and we were creating chances, finally they went in.

As I said in an earlier post, you need patience to try things to see how they fit together.  Analysis of your squad is really important to get the best out of them whilst minimizing there weaknesses.

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6 minutos atrás, summatsupeer disse:

Your trying random things and expecting immediate results.  I was 2-0 as PSV and came back to 2-2 with zero tactical changes, there goals were individual brilliance and a bit of luck.  I made some subs and we were creating chances, finally they went in.

As I said in an earlier post, you need patience to try things to see how they fit together.  Analysis of your squad is really important to get the best out of them whilst minimizing there weaknesses.

Im trying what guides/tutorials/people say i should try. i dont expect instant result. i expect not losing to a 3rd division team

as i said, you already know from previous versions what works well, i dont... and people say "choose how you want to play" and then say, dont choose 2 Inside Forwards, thats contradictory no ? and why is that? because you guys played older versions and already know 2 inside forwards dont work

Edited by ytpme420

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6 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Three things stand out to me, tactically the very high press, the IF-A + AF-A and the Shorter+Play Out Of Defence.   Your trying to win the ball high with 2 of 3 forwards trying to make runs in behind but then the passing distance is shorter so less likely to look for them.

My personal preference would be to move the AP to MCR and make him AP-A with more Direct Passing, he can collect from the WB-S / W-S and switch play to the IF-A.  Then the MCL I would have a Herrera type player (CAR-S/BWM-S/BBM) to help cover the IF-A on that flank.  I'd also go for a support duty forward to link play then make runs rather than focusing on the runs so much.  Even if keeping the MEZ-S inside the W-S, with a support forward maybe a MEZ-A can get up and past the ST (but De Jong isn't quick enough imo).  If keeping the fast+technical forward 3 i'd not press so high and just leave passing at default so they can use there legs whilst there's space behind opponents.

With regards to converting chances, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku and Sanchez all have about 15 (or lower) for finishing and composure (in general the main two attributes).  To convert more they really need to improve or need to create cut back/cross type chances that takes keeper out of equation.  You can also try adding Traits so good agile dribbles can round keeper etc.

Thanks for this. For starters, I'll drop the pressing line. I've actually already considered this, but wasn't really sure how far I should drop it.

Anyway, regarding the midfield, my planning was something highly Xavi-Iniesta like. Both highly creative, with one being more adventurous than the other. Pogba's quite a conundrum for me. I can deal with average ratings, but when you're chalking out 6.1, 6.2, or those ratings, it's poor, which is what he gets everytime I adapt his role. I've tried him as a MEZ(S), didn't try attack because I was concerned about his Shoots From Distance trait, RPM(S), and as a BBM, to no avail.
I also wanted my LW as an attacking IF, as I wanted him to be a goalscoring winger, with the other side(RW) the more supportive, till I get another winger there who can get in the bx more effectively(think of Liverpool's front 3 here), or Real Madrid's BBC, or PSG's Mbappe, Cavani, Neymar trio. 

 

Yeah, so I'm making things more complicated for you here. But this is sorta what I'm looking to create.

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I know because when creating a tactic I watch lots of the games, not just highlights. Yes I know what to expect from roles+duties but different players play differently due to attributes & traits.

Two IF can work. With the players your using in your team? I don't know.

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13 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

Thanks for this. For starters, I'll drop the pressing line. I've actually already considered this, but wasn't really sure how far I should drop it.

Drop it in stages if you like, try and see the difference.

13 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

Anyway, regarding the midfield, my planning was something highly Xavi-Iniesta like. Both highly creative, with one being more adventurous than the other. Pogba's quite a conundrum for me. I can deal with average ratings, but when you're chalking out 6.1, 6.2, or those ratings, it's poor, which is what he gets everytime I adapt his role. I've tried him as a MEZ(S), didn't try attack because I was concerned about his Shoots From Distance trait, RPM(S), and as a BBM, to no avail.
I also wanted my LW as an attacking IF, as I wanted him to be a goalscoring winger, with the other side(RW) the more supportive, till I get another winger there who can get in the bx more effectively(think of Liverpool's front 3 here), or Real Madrid's BBC, or PSG's Mbappe, Cavani, Neymar trio. 

 

Yeah, so I'm making things more complicated for you here. But this is sorta what I'm looking to create.

I think this is a fairly common issue, trying to take elements from different systems and fit them together.  IMO City / Barcelona etc can play lots of attacking players because of there possession style and hard work to win the ball back even if they lack the physical / ball winning attributes.  Pogba doesn't really fit the Xavi/Iniesta style, he is more physical and not quite so good technical&mentally.  I like him to be the 4th attacker, linking and taking risks, his decisions isn't great for a playmaker but the more space and quicker/directer the play the more successful I think he will be.  He doesn't fit the short intricate pass style (agility, accel, decision, off the ball etc), he fits the more direct vertical style, think of some of the balls he played for Mbappe and Griezmann at world cup then used his physical attributes to join the attack.  With the quick front 3 style and Pogba launching attacks then joining them i'd not try and add more creators, just some width and cover.

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36 minutos atrás, summatsupeer disse:

I know because when creating a tactic I watch lots of the games, not just highlights. Yes I know what to expect from roles+duties but different players play differently due to attributes & traits.

Two IF can work. With the players your using in your team? I don't know.

again, an eagle cant understand why a chicken cant fly

i have 4 inside forwards with "cuts inside from both wings" and 10/11 cross 10/11 pass am i going to play them as wingers? i have 3 AP's in CM and 2 DLP in DM, am i playing them as bwm?

 

its just dont make any sense, and if i dont even touch the ball how am i supposed to know whats wrong ? and how am i supposed to know what will fix it? the game doesnt give a **** if you understand it or not, and the community assumes you play it since 1832...

Edited by ytpme420

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8 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Drop it in stages if you like, try and see the difference.

I think this is a fairly common issue, trying to take elements from different systems and fit them together.  IMO City / Barcelona etc can play lots of attacking players because of there possession style and hard work to win the ball back even if they lack the physical / ball winning attributes.  Pogba doesn't really fit the Xavi/Iniesta style, he is more physical and not quite so good technical&mentally.  I like him to be the 4th attacker, linking and taking risks, his decisions isn't great for a playmaker but the more space and quicker/directer the play the more successful I think he will be.  He doesn't fit the short intricate pass style (agility, accel, decision, off the ball etc), he fits the more direct vertical style, think of some of the balls he played for Mbappe and Griezmann at world cup then used his physical attributes to join the attack.  With the quick front 3 style and Pogba launching attacks then joining them i'd not try and add more creators, just some width and cover.

A suggestion for his and De Jong's role then? If I persist with him alongside De Jong, with Matic behind(Will be Dier next season, already agreed).
I may also shift my forward to DLF(S), and leave my IF on Attack duty.

 

Also, those were just ideas to help you understand what I'm trying to create. I don't try to emulate them. If I had to say it. A full fledged free flowing front 3. A highly creative midfield. But that's looking at it in the most basic way.

Edited by MatthewS17

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3 hours ago, ytpme420 said:

again, an eagle cant understand why a chicken cant fly

i have 4 inside forwards with "cuts inside from both wings" and 10/11 cross 10/11 pass am i going to play them as wingers? i have 3 AP's in CM and 2 DLP in DM, am i playing them as bwm?

 

its just dont make any sense, and if i dont even touch the ball how am i supposed to know whats wrong ? and how am i supposed to know what will fix it? the game doesnt give a **** if you understand it or not, and the community assumes you play it since 1832...

Whilst those might be the best roles the game says they can do, they will have different attributes and might have differing 2nd/3rd best roles.  Maybe you'll need to get rid of some that don't fit to bring in players to give more options or fill a need.  A lot of squads at the start are a mess or have parts that don't fit together and tough decisions about who to build around for the future.  There best role doesn't tell me what they can do, some DLPs can provide a great defensive shield for CBs whilst others are purely a creative outlet who will rely on others to do the defensive work.

If your getting zero highlights on Comprehensive with your team in possession then go to Full Match and see how your losing possession or failing to win it back.  The game does try to help with the assistant managers advice but its purely statistical, "this percentage is high/low so do more/less of it".  That doesn't tell you why its happening and as you pointed out, there's hundreds if not thousands of possible role+duty combinations without considering team instructions or the players used.  We as humans have a lot more options than the AI knows what to do.

3 hours ago, MatthewS17 said:

A suggestion for his and De Jong's role then? If I persist with him alongside De Jong, with Matic behind(Will be Dier next season, already agreed).
I may also shift my forward to DLF(S), and leave my IF on Attack duty.

 

Also, those were just ideas to help you understand what I'm trying to create. I don't try to emulate them. If I had to say it. A full fledged free flowing front 3. A highly creative midfield. But that's looking at it in the most basic way.

Personally I wouldn't but then i'm probably more defensive minded than you.  With his physical attributes i'd probably make him the AP on the right and make Pogba a BBM type on the left and switch the DM to a HB/DM.  I'd definitely keep the IF-A and the ST could be a DLF-S or maybe a PF-S so he lays it off simple (hopefully to the AP) then can make a run rather than trying to play the pass himself.

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15 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Personally I wouldn't but then i'm probably more defensive minded than you.  With his physical attributes i'd probably make him the AP on the right and make Pogba a BBM type on the left and switch the DM to a HB/DM.  I'd definitely keep the IF-A and the ST could be a DLF-S or maybe a PF-S so he lays it off simple (hopefully to the AP) then can make a run rather than trying to play the pass himself.

Alright, so after a few games I've located a few issues here. I should mention I made slight changes here. Instead of a BBM, I made De Jong the DLP(S) in midfield, Matic the HB(D), and placed Pogba on AP(A). My attacking lineup was also consistent in all games with Martial as an IF(A) on the left, Rashford through the middle as a DLF(S), and Lingard on the right, sometimes as a W(S), but mostly played as a Winger on Attack duty:

1: First problem is the left-wing. Martial is just about invisible in most matches. Other than the occasional run and spectacular goal, he is more or less invisible on the pitch. He seems to be too far wide all the time(I didn't add Play Wider) to take any real advantage of created space.

2: Pogba's long shots(Big problem). Part of the reason I've always kept Pogba as an AP on Support is that he stays further back. On an attack duty as an AP, just like when he plays as a B2B or MEZ, he starts rifling off long shots that make little to no sense other than to just be wasteful. He's hitting off 8 shots a match with a 0% on target, which is just immensely frustrating,

 

On a good note, De Jong dictates play like an absolute boss as a DLP, threading through passes at every available opportunity, hence why I cannot change his role here. He's just been far too good.

 

 

On another note, I encountered this, which I find immensely angering. Because surely things like this should not happen ffs. Both of my CB's drawn to the ball leaving a humongous gap in the middle. Something that would never happen EVER in reality, as one would go, and one would stay. In the same match, I also had a goal that I scored, ruled out because the opponent fouled one of my players in the box, and rather than a penalty, the match just went on.

 

493618211_CBPositioning.thumb.PNG.26e0ecbe2db2008d0eab32d51d282bc5.PNG

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13 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

On another note, I encountered this, which I find immensely angering. Because surely things like this should not happen ffs. Both of my CB's drawn to the ball leaving a humongous gap in the middle. Something that would never happen EVER in reality, as one would go, and one would stay. In the same match, I also had a goal that I scored, ruled out because the opponent fouled one of my players in the box, and rather than a penalty, the match just went on.

There is definitely a problem with closing down atm. See this happen all over the pitch even higher up, opposition CB has the ball and gets closed down by my left IF, my MEZ and my striker, all closing down the same player.

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1 hour ago, MatthewS17 said:

Alright, so after a few games I've located a few issues here. I should mention I made slight changes here. Instead of a BBM, I made De Jong the DLP(S) in midfield, Matic the HB(D), and placed Pogba on AP(A). My attacking lineup was also consistent in all games with Martial as an IF(A) on the left, Rashford through the middle as a DLF(S), and Lingard on the right, sometimes as a W(S), but mostly played as a Winger on Attack duty:

1: First problem is the left-wing. Martial is just about invisible in most matches. Other than the occasional run and spectacular goal, he is more or less invisible on the pitch. He seems to be too far wide all the time(I didn't add Play Wider) to take any real advantage of created space.

2: Pogba's long shots(Big problem). Part of the reason I've always kept Pogba as an AP on Support is that he stays further back. On an attack duty as an AP, just like when he plays as a B2B or MEZ, he starts rifling off long shots that make little to no sense other than to just be wasteful. He's hitting off 8 shots a match with a 0% on target, which is just immensely frustrating,

 

On a good note, De Jong dictates play like an absolute boss as a DLP, threading through passes at every available opportunity, hence why I cannot change his role here. He's just been far too good.

 

 

On another note, I encountered this, which I find immensely angering. Because surely things like this should not happen ffs. Both of my CB's drawn to the ball leaving a humongous gap in the middle. Something that would never happen EVER in reality, as one would go, and one would stay. In the same match, I also had a goal that I scored, ruled out because the opponent fouled one of my players in the box, and rather than a penalty, the match just went on.

 

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What are the TIs?

Just to compare though, in mine I have CAR-S + AP-A with IF-A + PF-S + W-S.  I transition the ball on the right quite often due to the W-S and playmaker on that side carrying the ball, this creates space on the left side for the IF-A.  I'm guessing because you have a DLP-S on the right whom will be deeper and no carry it himself so much and Pogba as an AP-A offering a pass to feet rather than an advanced option that your lacking options and theres no switch of play.  I also like Pogba on the right since he is more likely to run down the channel with it than cut inside and shoot, he still does sometimes but not as often as he does when on the left.  This is purely from memory though as i've not analysed it.

You've not mentioned him but Rashford as DLF-S won't really work well, his player traits clash with the role.  This might then take away from what the IF-A can do.  In the first season I use Lukaku and Sanchez as the ST.  Martial / Rashford as the IF-A.  Lingard as W-S with Sanchez & Rashford getting some time there as needed.  I switch to a 4231 if I want Mata playing.

Yeah that is a little unrealistic to have both CBs do that, from a purely "its a game" point of view i'd guess its because Manolas is very aggressive and prefers to get stuck in rather than cover.

If your keeping that DLP-S in MCR then maybe you could use a IF-S since he holds position so should have space inside of him, then have a very aggressive RB (Dalot?) as WB-A or CWB-A to bomb forward early and often to provide width.  You'll always have that Pogba issue, its a combination of his attributes like Decisions and his player traits, once opponents are pinned in and he gets it on the edge its going to happen.  Only way to minimize it is to try and attack quickly and avoid pinning opponents in.

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

What are the TIs?

Just to compare though, in mine I have CAR-S + AP-A with IF-A + PF-S + W-S.  I transition the ball on the right quite often due to the W-S and playmaker on that side carrying the ball, this creates space on the left side for the IF-A.  I'm guessing because you have a DLP-S on the right whom will be deeper and no carry it himself so much and Pogba as an AP-A offering a pass to feet rather than an advanced option that your lacking options and theres no switch of play.  I also like Pogba on the right since he is more likely to run down the channel with it than cut inside and shoot, he still does sometimes but not as often as he does when on the left.  This is purely from memory though as i've not analysed it.

You've not mentioned him but Rashford as DLF-S won't really work well, his player traits clash with the role.  This might then take away from what the IF-A can do.  In the first season I use Lukaku and Sanchez as the ST.  Martial / Rashford as the IF-A.  Lingard as W-S with Sanchez & Rashford getting some time there as needed.  I switch to a 4231 if I want Mata playing.

Yeah that is a little unrealistic to have both CBs do that, from a purely "its a game" point of view i'd guess its because Manolas is very aggressive and prefers to get stuck in rather than cover.

If your keeping that DLP-S in MCR then maybe you could use a IF-S since he holds position so should have space inside of him, then have a very aggressive RB (Dalot?) as WB-A or CWB-A to bomb forward early and often to provide width.  You'll always have that Pogba issue, its a combination of his attributes like Decisions and his player traits, once opponents are pinned in and he gets it on the edge its going to happen.  Only way to minimize it is to try and attack quickly and avoid pinning opponents in.

TI's are pretty much identical to the post I made earlier, with the exception of a lower line of engagement as suggested.
I've been wanting Rashford and Martial to both be consistent members of my team and not rotational options. In fairness, Rashford as the DLF has got 7 goals in 6 games, and has done quite well. Sanchez is ill, and Lukaku and my system result in too many missed chances that I've just pretended he doesn't exist.

Both Dalot and Shaw get to the goal line as WB on support, and they offer some serious width, and the majority of my plays involve moving the ball out wide.

As for playing Pogba on the right, the thing I've noticed is that he's almost always entirely central, as if playing the No. 10 role, and his rights are pretty head on when he shoots. He gets to within a yard of the box and fires wide or over, even if there's still further space to run and get in the box, but even in the box he misses. What I have noticed here is that space seems to open up really well here for him. He's always completely unmarked, with space to move into and in fact, his line to goal(I think this is a flaw in the ME, because no player should have such an easy run into the box) is straightforward, which is why I'm frustrated. De Jong seems to be the one who gets marked the most and closed down along with Martial(Not sure if this is intended), and they are always seriously closed down.I have no worries for De Jong, because like I said, he performs spectacularly well in his role.

 

As for converting the W(S) into an IF(S), I have tried this. My most recent game was against Everton. At half time I was 1-0 down, but they were a man down, with Idrissa Gueye flooring Pogba 2 minutes after their goal. At half time, At about 50 minutes, I switched Lingard's role to IF(S) and nailed them 5-1, where he contributed heavily. But I'm not sure if this is down to the red card or the role.

 

My results have picked up, but the smaller teams away(I just played four away games in a row) and at home are where we struggle, especially due to Pogba's apparent lack of a thought process.

 

Also, to your point about pinning opponents in, pretty much everyone tries to sit deep and hit me on the counter these days(even the big 6, bar Liverpool, City and Arsenal like making it open), so I'm almost always got them hemmed in.

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18 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

TI's are pretty much identical to the post I made earlier, with the exception of a lower line of engagement as suggested.

Still Shorter Passing, Work Ball Into Box and Play Out Of Defence?

The Shorter Passing + Play Out Of Defence when on Positive mentality (which makes deeper players play shorter) makes me think you might be being a bit to patient and ending up "pinning" opponents in still, though Higher Tempo will help move the ball quicker.  Any player with Shoots From Distance who doesn't have the mentals to pick a better option will have the same issues, hence the style of play I talked about Pogba needing to minimize it.  FYI i'm using More Direct + Higher Tempo + Pass Into Space on Positive so kind of opposite of you, not saying i'm right and your wrong but there could be a middle ground OR you need to bite the bullet and get rid of Pogba and bring in someone with more patience to work the ball around the area, but then playing in tight spaces in the box isn't the strength of Martial + Rashfords either.

I'm thinking maybe try dropping Work Ball Out Of Box, with the mentality and Shorter Passing it probably won't make a huge difference but could see the ball going from defence to the playmakers sooner and then they can use space earlier.

Quote

I've been wanting Rashford and Martial to both be consistent members of my team and not rotational options. In fairness, Rashford as the DLF has got 7 goals in 6 games, and has done quite well. Sanchez is ill, and Lukaku and my system result in too many missed chances that I've just pretended he doesn't exist.

Well if he's getting so many goals as the ST that probably will take away from the IF-A, even though the ST has been given a "linking" role.  Ideally you want to add to this but if things aren't going terribly then you need to take a little out to get a bit more return else where.

Quote

Both Dalot and Shaw get to the goal line as WB on support, and they offer some serious width, and the majority of my plays involve moving the ball out wide.

It's not just about what they do, its about when they do it.  I'm thinking it will give the IF-S (if changed from W-S) more space due to the earlier threat, a W-S might not need that earlier overlap and instead might want that outside space himself.  Just an idea, with a holding DM and a DLP-S you should have enough cover.

Edited by summatsupeer

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guys, this is a super interesting thread! i had (still having sometimes) an issue with 4141DM wide and the player roles. especially when coming new to a club where they were playing a different system before. 

what I'm missing setting wise is different passing strategies for different areas of the pitch. i got this from an interesting interview with M Sarri (think of him what you want, good tactician) who said the first 70meters of the pitch the players do it my way, the last 30meters they play their way. plus i just watched Arsenal vs Burnley (2:1) and Arsenal always tried to play out of defence with short passes. Burnley pressed extremely high up the pitch so there was a lot of space after the halfway line and Arsenal played that quite cleverly. they tried playing out of the back short but then made deep long passes to cut the Burnley defence apart and exploit the space. Good since Auba is really fast..

or am I just missing something in the settings here? 

Edited by seahorserider

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