Mentoring

[Caldwell]

Previous years you could link up a younger player to mentor with a first team player but this year it seems silly that if I was to do that I’d have to add say a player in my u18s to the first team squad just to mentor them, could anyone explain why the change? 

[wardog]

Realism there's a mentor tab in training now 

[Double Indemnity]

Remember that you can add him to the first-team squad but make him permanently available for the U18s—so he continues to play at that level while training with and learning from the first team.

[Mardy]

It's a little tedious I agree, I like investing in a full team of high potential under 18s and 23s that fit my tactics, so my first team appears huge. I've set my under18s a nick name of just "Y" and "B" for my reserves, so it's a little easier on the eye. 

[upthetoon]

Mentoring

How does promoting my 15 year old to the first team squad just to be tutored is realism? Since when does a 14-15yr old takes part in first team training sessions permanently just so he can be tutored?? If you have read the biographies of footballers you will see that the mentoring system mostly works off the field and occasionally during extra training sessions. The 15 year old is no way a part of first team squad for many obvious reasons such as and not limited to

1) The training intensity and focus of the first team squad is completely different and not for a development of a 14-15 year old.

2) In some clubs, the training is not even in the same area. They have separate training centres for the youth and the first team.

All managers occasionally visit the academies of their youths to keep an eye on the promising 15 yr olds but mostly is based on feedback from their respective academy managers. Youth development is completely different from First Team training. Occasionally managers invite their youths to train with the First Team squad for a week or two to get a feel of the intensity and training regime of a full-fledge FIrst Team player. And then they join back their peers and continue their academy development.

It is not like how it works in the game at the moment, where the youth is required to be promoted to the First Team squad and is training full time with the first team squad(!). That's not how development for a youth or mentoring works.

[imadori]

previously tutoring had two options...tutor on the field, and tutor off the field.  mechanically it worked as attributes only, and attributes plus PPM.  i'm also not entirely keen on needing to move to first team in FM19.  maybe instead it could have been tutor on field (require moving to first team to train, gain attributes plus PPM), and tutor off field (can stay in youth squad and just gain mental attributes)

[herne79]

26 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

How does promoting my 15 year old to the first team squad just to be tutored is realism?

You don't have to.  You're still thinking in terms of the old Tutoring system in order to merely change player personalities.

Mentoring isn't about simply changing personalities.  It's about helping to gel players and team mates together (although personalities can still be affected).  So set up Mentoring groups within the U18s/U19s/U20s teams.  Have the young players working together early.  If you have a particularly gifted young player (think Mbappe or Donnarumma for example) who is either ready or just about ready for first team action, then promote those few players to your first team and involve them in Mentoring groups there.

Two other things to bear in mind as well:  1) Match time at an appropriate level is important for development; and 2) If you have young players in your senior squad but set to play for a junior team (see 1. above), their training will be set up for senior squad matches, not the junior matches.  That could negatively impact their development.

If all you're doing is creating a large first team squad with lots of young players just to get them mentored by senior players, then yeh it's not realism and all you're trying to do is "tutor" them like we used to prior to FM19.

[leviathan1904]

The idea of mentoring in narrower sense is that experienced players can teach your 19 year old who is already in the first team squad and not: babysitting a 15 year old who is not yet able to be in the first team squad. It makes sense. Spending time on the pitch and in the dressing room is key.  

[upthetoon]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

You don't have to.  You're still thinking in terms of the old Tutoring system in order to merely change player personalities.

Mentoring isn't about simply changing personalities.  It's about helping to gel players and team mates together (although personalities can still be affected).  So set up Mentoring groups within the U18s/U19s/U20s teams.  Have the young players working together early.  If you have a particularly gifted young player (think Mbappe or Donnarumma for example) who is either ready or just about ready for first team action, then promote those few players to your first team and involve them in Mentoring groups there.

Two other things to bear in mind as well:  1) Match time at an appropriate level is important for development; and 2) If you have young players in your senior squad but set to play for a junior team (see 1. above), their training will be set up for senior squad matches, not the junior matches.  That could negatively impact their development.

If all you're doing is creating a large first team squad with lots of young players just to get them mentored by senior players, then yeh it's not realism and all you're trying to do is "tutor" them like we used to prior to FM19.

I get all that but you are still missing the point.

What i'm saying is, the current method of requiring players to be promoted to the first team is wrong and misleading in the interpretation of how actual mentoring works. 90% of mentoring in reality, is off the field - but this is another topic all together.

In a nutshell, a 17 18yr old players must be able to be mentored without them being required to be in the First Team picture like in real life. A youth developing player gets mentored but in actual fact is under the training by the academy. Occasionally if the player shows potential the manager calls the youth player to join the first team training to get a feel of the regime first team players go through and to also give them motivation and inspiration being around senior players.

The current system is just misleading and wrong. Mentoring and being in the First Team are 2 separate realities and not to be confused together like how it currently is.

[Seb Wassell]

24 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

What i'm saying is, the current method of requiring players to be promoted to the first team is wrong and misleading in the interpretation of how actual mentoring works. 90% of mentoring in reality, is off the field - but this is another topic all together.

In a nutshell, a 17 18yr old players must be able to be mentored without them being required to be in the First Team picture like in real life. A youth developing player gets mentored but in actual fact is under the training by the academy. Occasionally if the player shows potential the manager calls the youth player to join the first team training to get a feel of the regime first team players go through and to also give them motivation and inspiration being around senior players.

100% of mentoring in reality does not take place between your 32 year old club captain and a 16 year old academy graduate.

Most managers don't actually pay any attention to the academy, it is not the academy that decides whether they are sacked or not.

24 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

The current system is just misleading and wrong. Mentoring and being in the First Team are 2 separate realities and not to be confused together like how it currently is.

Mentoring and being in the same squad are in fact intrinsically linked. How is Sergio Aguero going to mentor that 16 year old if he spends 2/3s of his week travelling between an away match in Newcastle and a Champions League match in Belgrade, the remaining 1/3 either resting at home or training in the morning whilst the youngster spends 5 days per week training in the afternoon, 1 day in Newport playing a match and the final day resting (probably on a different day to Aguero).

Additionally, as mentioned in my reply in the feedback thread, Mentoring was not only introduced to be a more accurate reflection of reality but also to combat the unfair advantage the human was able to gain over the AI when it came to player development.

[herne79]

@upthetoon  You are writing as if you have first hand experience of how various clubs use Mentoring in real life, which appears to be different from the work SI have carried out with clubs in order to set this up for FM19.  Could you clarify your experience here?  I now @Seb Wassell would welcome a discussion around real life experiences .

[ravenation]

On 16/11/2018 at 15:20, herne79 said:

@upthetoon  You are writing as if you have first hand experience of how various clubs use Mentoring in real life, which appears to be different from the work SI have carried out with clubs in order to set this up for FM19.  Could you clarify your experience here?  I now @Seb Wassell would welcome a discussion around real life experiences .

I like this discussion.

It seems like this year you get lot of players into your academy that are unambitious and the HOYD doesnt seem to have much influence anymore.

This mentoring has always been a strange thing and i agree it is not bad idea to change it.

But is reality not that a player get mentored during to the staff in the Academy and get the right personalities on the way through youth level?

When I have exceptional junior coaching - i would suppose it means i have the absoutely best coaches that make sure the players get the right attitude or they will be sorted out before they reach the age of 15.

I think it is not normal that youth players get mentoring by senior players.

I mean is it normal 15-16 year old players manages to get into a youth academy are unambitous and really dont care about training and football?

[Damedius]

38 minutes ago, ravenation said:

I like this discussion.

It seems like this year you get lot of players into your academy that are unambitious and the HOYD doesnt seem to have much influence anymore.

This mentoring has always been a strange thing and i agree it is not bad idea to change it.

But is reality not that a player get mentored during to the staff in the Academy and get the right personalities on the way through youth level?

When I have exceptional junior coaching - i would suppose it means i have the absoutely best coaches that make sure the players get the right attitude or they will be sorted out before they reach the age of 15.

I think it is not normal that youth players get mentoring by senior players.

I mean is it normal 15-16 year old players manages to get into a youth academy are unambitous and really dont care about training and football?

This has been a bit of an issue of mine as well.

I started a Stockport save with the intention on building a strong youth program. I hired a Fairly Professional HoYD hoping that it would give me professional players. Instead half of my youth intake every year is unambitious with odd Fickle thrown in.

You can improve them by moving them to the senior team. The problems come when they become influential. Then they can start to ruin the youth team.

 

This and bug in my save that prevents me from raising my Youth level, has put a damper on having a strong youth program.

 

[ravenation]

Just now, Damedius said:

This has been a bit of an issue of mine as well.

I started a Stockport save with the intention on building a strong youth program. I hired a Fairly Professional HoYD hoping that it would give me professional players. Instead half of my youth intake every year is unambitious with odd Fickle thrown in.

You can improve them by moving them to the senior team. The problems come when they become influential. Then they can start to ruin the youth team.

 

This and bug in my save that prevents me from raising my Youth level, has put a damper on having a strong youth program.

 

I think system is still not realistic - you know players dont even get to academy level if they have the wrong personality and in this version it is more than 50% with that personality.

Dont know how many seasons you played, but when you reach Championship you are dependent on the academy as you cant follow the other teams economically. Especially if you are as lucky as me, and get a hard brexit, so you are as well dependent on UK talents.

[Rooneye]

On 16/11/2018 at 12:22, herne79 said:

You don't have to.  You're still thinking in terms of the old Tutoring system in order to merely change player personalities.

Mentoring isn't about simply changing personalities.  It's about helping to gel players and team mates together (although personalities can still be affected).  So set up Mentoring groups within the U18s/U19s/U20s teams.  Have the young players working together early.  If you have a particularly gifted young player (think Mbappe or Donnarumma for example) who is either ready or just about ready for first team action, then promote those few players to your first team and involve them in Mentoring groups there.

Two other things to bear in mind as well:  1) Match time at an appropriate level is important for development; and 2) If you have young players in your senior squad but set to play for a junior team (see 1. above), their training will be set up for senior squad matches, not the junior matches.  That could negatively impact their development.

If all you're doing is creating a large first team squad with lots of young players just to get them mentored by senior players, then yeh it's not realism and all you're trying to do is "tutor" them like we used to prior to FM19.

Hmmm interesting. So you set up mentoring groups in the under ages, for them to gel or something? Can you (or anyone else) expand on this and how this works?

Also I think the term mentoring should be changed, it's a bit misleading and just leads to people comparing the old system. Like this example here, grouping the under 18's together in a group, how is that "mentoring"? The term mentoring is very one-on-one.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Rooneye said:

Hmmm interesting. So you set up mentoring groups in the under ages, for them to gel or something? Can you (or anyone else) expand on this and how this works?

Also I think the term mentoring should be changed, it's a bit misleading and just leads to people comparing the old system. Like this example here, grouping the under 18's together in a group, how is that "mentoring"? The term mentoring is very one-on-one.

There are 2 guides pinned to the top of the Tactics and Training forum.

[Seb Wassell]

17 hours ago, ravenation said:

I like this discussion.

It seems like this year you get lot of players into your academy that are unambitious and the HOYD doesnt seem to have much influence anymore.

This mentoring has always been a strange thing and i agree it is not bad idea to change it.

But is reality not that a player get mentored during to the staff in the Academy and get the right personalities on the way through youth level?

When I have exceptional junior coaching - i would suppose it means i have the absoutely best coaches that make sure the players get the right attitude or they will be sorted out before they reach the age of 15.

I think it is not normal that youth players get mentoring by senior players.

I mean is it normal 15-16 year old players manages to get into a youth academy are unambitous and really dont care about training and football?

Player's being developed on a personal level by staff would be simulated from before newgen age (in the academy).

It's important to remember that, like all attributes, this is a 1-20 scale of footballers. So in the same way that 1 Finishing is still better than most of us, 1 Ambition is the most unambitious a footballer could be, which is still enough to get through to being a footballer at 15/16 years old.

[yezzko]

25 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Player's being developed on a personal level by staff would be simulated from before newgen age (in the academy).

It's important to remember that, like all attributes, this is a 1-20 scale of footballers. So in the same way that 1 Finishing is still better than most of us, 1 Ambition is the most unambitious a footballer could be, which is still enough to get through to being a footballer at 15/16 years old.

This. This should be pinned somewhere since a lot of people don't know how do attributes work in this game.

[Baodan]

1 hour ago, yezzko said:

1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

Player's being developed on a personal level by staff would be simulated from before newgen age (in the academy).

It's important to remember that, like all attributes, this is a 1-20 scale of footballers. So in the same way that 1 Finishing is still better than most of us, 1 Ambition is the most unambitious a footballer could be, which is still enough to get through to being a footballer at 15/16 years old.

This. This should be pinned somewhere since a lot of people don't know how do attributes work in this game.

Lets not forget that this is a game and in this game 1 is the lowest and 20 is the highest. What the lowest number is outside of this game is pretty much irrelevant, a part from context.

If you get a young player with 1 in all attributes, then yeah sure he's probably a better footballer than me, but in this game he is most likely complete trash.

[Seb Wassell]

5 minutes ago, Baodan said:

Lets not forget that this is a game and in this game 1 is the lowest and 20 is the highest. What the lowest number is outside of this game is pretty much irrelevant, a part from context.

If you get a young player with 1 in all attributes, then yeah sure he's probably a better footballer than me, but in this game he is most likely complete trash.

Every scale has a minimum and maximum value. Someone has to be the worst and someone has to be the best. The "worst" can still be a footballer though, no point in us simulating non-footballers in a football game.

[herne79]

43 minutes ago, Baodan said:

Lets not forget that this is a game and in this game 1 is the lowest and 20 is the highest. What the lowest number is outside of this game is pretty much irrelevant, a part from context.

If you get a young player with 1 in all attributes, then yeah sure he's probably a better footballer than me, but in this game he is most likely complete trash.

 

38 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Every scale has a minimum and maximum value. Someone has to be the worst and someone has to be the best. The "worst" can still be a footballer though, no point in us simulating non-footballers in a football game.

Also worth remembering that some people play this game with leagues down to level 20+, where a player with 1 across the board will actually not be that bad.

Where there's muck there's brass.