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4-1-4-1DM Tactic Problems

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Hey all,

I'm having issues with tactics for my 4-1-4-1DM with Real Madrid. Against tough competition I don't possess the ball well and concede a lot due to them having many chances on goal. Against easier competition I dominate the game but score infrequently and at times lose 1-0 or tie 1-1/0-0 due to low chance conversion. I also notice that my players are getting injuries decently often and early in the season. This is my first real season of Football Manager so I'm still learning all the systems but would really love some help!

Screen Shot 2018-11-13 at 9.16.14 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-13 at 9.17.04 AM.png

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To begin with, try not to use too many instructions (unless you exactly know what each of them will do and what precisely you want to achieve by using it). For example, I would suggest removing both overlaps and extremely wide play when in possession, distribute to PM in transition (because fullbacks and centrebacks are safer options) and would definitely remove defend wider and use tighter marking when out of possession.

I'd also like to know what's the exact reason to play Ramos on the stopper duty (instead of simple defend)? I don't say it's necessarily wrong, just curious to learn your reasoning behind it.

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Hey thanks for the response. So I will try that for sure, I started to kinda throw things at the wall after a while to see what would help after a bad result which in hindsight was a bad idea. I honestly would like to emulate Zidane's real madrid to a certain extent (without Ronaldo of course :( ). My thought with Ramos was reactionary. I was seeing goals being scored from the top of the box due to my CBs being tucked too close to goal so I was hoping this would ensure he would be farther out to break up plays when the CMs were sucked away to the wide men. 

The wide play stuff was based on things I "learned" from youtube videos where I was trying to spread the defense a bit due to so many teams parking the base against me.

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27 minutes ago, copper said:

My thought with Ramos was reactionary. I was seeing goals being scored from the top of the box due to my CBs being tucked too close to goal so I was hoping this would ensure he would be farther out to break up plays when the CMs were sucked away to the wide men. 

I would assume you were conceding this kind of goals due to defending wider, thus leaving central areas vulnerable. Wide defending is inherently risky, and IMO is more suitable for systems that use 3 CBs (but even then I'd personally tend to play with normal (standard) defensive width). In fact, defensive width is the only new feature in FM19 that I think is completely pointless, because in real life even the most attacking teams will look to get comparatively narrower in the defensive phase of play (i.e. when they lose possession).

Using a CB as a stopper makes more sense in systems without a DM. But given that you use a DM, either set both CBs to defend duty, or one to defend and the other to cover.

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Hello. Experienced Defender is very right with his limit TIs advice and also think about the fact that when you have so many of them its virtually impossible for you to analyse the effects of every single one of them.

And now Im gonna contradict myself a little bit. With the defensive setup you have I d also add offside trap (and change Ramos to ordinary cd d). The reason for that is that if you already have high line and tighter marking your defenders are in general closer to attackers so its easier for them to just take a step up and catch forwards offside.

You can alsi simokify your defensive setuo by leaving just higher line, offside trap and more urgent pressing.

In general most of the times when I play high d line I also use offside trap. The only exception I could think of is when your defenders have better movement than mentals and also you have a fast gk that can play as a sweeper keeper (support or attack).

Good luck with your season!

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Ive just started a Real Madrid life after Ronaldo save to go alongside my two long term saves which are Juventus and Nottingham Forest, and im enjoying our abilities to play lovely football. There is definitely options for you to use as Real Madrid, but just looking at your tactic, I would say:

 

1) I think some of your team instructions are unnecessary. For example, the overlap instructions I dont think will help. This is telling your inside forwards to hold onto the ball whilst your wing backs run up on the overlap. Marcelo for example has some interesting pi's and when left to do his thing will overlap AND underlap your left winger, he will get himself into the box and pop up everywhere for example which gives you more dimensions to use.

You also have instructions like playing for set pieces and playing extremely wide, i dont think you need to use these personally.

 

2) Distributing to a playmaker i find an interesting instruction you are giving....I usually find this means he has to get the ball under control and pass to a team mate, and he ends up under immediate pressure. If looking to distribute from the keeper, its better i think to play shorter passes to your centrebacks who will split from a goal kick. In Ramos and Varane you have two excellent passers of the ball and as long as they have options to pass to, youll frequently play through the oppositions press into midfield.

 

3) In terms of defending, defending narrow is risky, perhaps you feel you are vulnerable from crosses and want to stop them? id set the defensive width back to normal. Also, bear in mind playing a high line, you will be at risk from balls over the top and through balls. What i tend to find is, because youre pushed up its actually a double jeopardy, as when you press high, youll pressure their back 4, which will hurry them into a possible long ball. The long ball will then be delivered into the open space your high defensive line is leaving, guys like Inaki Williams and Cedric Bakambu will be ready to burst through your defensive line if not careful.

 

4) Pressing more urgently seems like a logical idea, but just be wary that very very good teams may be able to disrupt your shape and play around you if all of your players are frantically trying to close down all of the time. Sometimes holding your shape and not engaging the man in possession can cut down his passing options by positioning your players into closing his passing lanes down.

 

Just in terms of player roles:

 

1) id noticed that you are using Modric as a Mezzala, and Bale as an inside forward together. so both will want to occupy the same space on the right side. is your plan to use Bale and Isco as your main goalscorers, with Benzema's movement creating space for the two of them to run into? just give some thought to the interactions of the roles in combination, are they acting the way you want them to after watching the matches, and if not, even if their little pie icon says yellow for example that role might suit your teams's structure better, even if its not their ideal role.

 

2) Have you given your players any PI's? i think at first, keeping PI's and TI's as minimal as possible DEFINITELY helps, as you can see more easily what effects the instructions are having, and where you may need to add an instruction here and there.

3) Sergio Ramos as a stopper will step forward out of the back line, this may be a quality you want for a particular reason?

 

As far as the injury situation goes, my opinion is:

Managing Real myself, and having played with other similar players, you have players like Bale, Varane, Modric.....these players are definitely prone to injury. Monitor the situation. Give them rests when you can and rotate the squad. One thing not in your favour at Real Madrid is you have a squad that given the size of club you are, has very little depth. Try and keep your players fresh with sensible rotation.

 

Check the injury situation in training too. If players are at high risk of injury, schedule rest for them or lower intensity sessions. Use preseason to get morale up and get them fit and raring to go, and then manage the situation depending on individual needs.

 

And also, football manager is a bloody hard game too. Injury crisis can happen, as can losing games. Sometimes, you just lose because its one of those days, its not because your tactic is fundamentally bad. Your results so far arent too bad, youre certainly outperforming Lopetegui! but as your team becomes a more solid unit and their cohesion increases, some dodgy results will become wins for sure.

 

Im enjoying managing Real Madrid a lot, ill put my tactic im using up soon and perhaps compare progress?

Edited by FMunderachiever

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Your only attack duties are 2 of your front 3, yet your in possession instructions is to move the ball shorter + work ball out of defence on Balanced mentality. 

Your out of possession system is to also engage high, push up high, press hard, defend wide, prevent gk dist and mark tight, if its effective your going to point opponents into there third, so wheres the space being created for your two attack duties to make there runs?

When attacking, the only space your likely to get is on the flanks, especially playing super wide and using two WB-S (thats what the auto duty will be on Balanced) then telling the team to look for overlaps which will make the two If players hold up the ball more often to wait for the WB runs.  Crosses into an organized box are really low conversion and your team isn't really made for that to be a primary assist source.

Theres a lot of issues here, i'm not sure how you want to play.  I would start a bit simpler firstly as other have suggested by removing some TI's, I think you've just assumed you needed them rather than analysing there effects on your team.  Then consider how your moving the ball VS how your players are moving.

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Firstly thank you so much everyone for the awesome advice. There is some really great information here that has already taught me so much.

1. Many of you talked about having too many TIs. After removing them my team is playing 100% better so thank you so much for that. There are a couple reasons they were added: 1. Because I felt I need to "control" my team to be successful 2. The assistant coach is constantly barking at me telling me to add more TIs (both outside and during games). 3. Reacting to poor results and trying to "fix" problems I felt I saw. What's the deal with the assistant coach, I trusted him a lot with his advice and I feel like now that I'm ignoring him I'm doing much better.

2. I didn't fully understand how player roles and player instructions worked nor did I understand the default player behavior that is inherent to the game or certain players. Reading the responses has helped me immensely but outside of that I'm not sure how I would have learned this. Any advice?

3. Lastly I watched a video and started to understand how to use opponent scouting and analytics to help counter their tactics however that also led to a lot of the TI bloat you saw. When is it appropriate to start analyzing and making changes to my tactics to counter an opponent?

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1 hour ago, copper said:

What's the deal with the assistant coach, I trusted him a lot with his advice and I feel like now that I'm ignoring him I'm doing much better.

Absolutely :thup: I tend to ignore the assistant's advice most of the time, because he's looking to impose his preferred style of football, which does not necessarily suits the team. I can only apply some of his advice when it sounds logical, but that happens really rarely :lol:

 

1 hour ago, copper said:

I didn't fully understand how player roles and player instructions worked nor did I understand the default player behavior that is inherent to the game or certain players. Reading the responses has helped me immensely but outside of that I'm not sure how I would have learned this. Any advice?

I fear you need to make this question a bit more concrete. For example, single out a specific player, post a screenshot of his profile here, and we (i.e. each of us) can then tell you how we would use that particular player in your system and why. I'd personally like to see Modric's attributes and PPMs, because I think he's a great player that can successfully play a number of different roles in the midfield and is therefore extremely useful. 

Btw. when thinking of Real, an idea that immediately comes to my mind is to use Marcelo as an IWB on attack duty and to have the AML as an APM on support, which would lead to a natural underlap on that side, and I would say Marcelo is perfect to do the job. Plus you already have Kroos as a DLP who is ideal in that role to pull the strings from behind. But that's just one thing that you can do to improve the tactic (at least in the attacking phase). When you have such a top team like Real, it's much easier to experiment with players and their roles/duties than when you manage some crappy side :D

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31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

When you have such a top team like Real, it's much easier to experiment with players and their roles/duties than when you manage some crappy side :D

Other than the fact that I'm a huge Real fan this is exactly why I chose them to start out with. I figured this would help me learn the game more so when I take on the challenge of managing a small side with lower caliber players and a small budget I have a better understanding of the game. 

I've attached Modric's info as well as my new tactic I've been using very successfully against easier opponents. My fear is it would lead to conceding too much against the harder teams so some suggestions for what to do against the likes of Ath Madrid, Barca, Juve and other champions league foes would be awesome. I've tried using a counter-attacking tactic against them and have had "decent" results with draws, small losses and squeaked out victories. I just came off an awesome result against Espanyol where Mariano had 4 goals. He's proven to be amazing for me in the pressing forward role and he "fits" much better than benzema who wants out of the squad anyway so I'll be looking to replace him in the winter transfer window with another pressing forward. 

 

 

fm_2018-11-14_11-34-20.png

fm_2018-11-14_11-37-56.png

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14 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

And also, football manager is a bloody hard game too. Injury crisis can happen, as can losing games. Sometimes, you just lose because its one of those days, its not because your tactic is fundamentally bad. Your results so far arent too bad, youre certainly outperforming Lopetegui! but as your team becomes a more solid unit and their cohesion increases, some dodgy results will become wins for sure.

I realized I forgot to comment on this. It is a hard game but rewarding! LOL at Lopetegui, sadly that wasn't hard :( After switching things up here is my recent results:

fm_2018-11-14_11-43-16.png

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As I supposed, Modric is fantastic. You can use him in almost any CM role. He can be a playmaker of any type (DLP, APM or RPM) but also MEZ or BtBM. So you can use him in different roles, depending on what your system requires in a given situation.

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3 hours ago, copper said:

Firstly thank you so much everyone for the awesome advice. There is some really great information here that has already taught me so much.

1. Many of you talked about having too many TIs. After removing them my team is playing 100% better so thank you so much for that. There are a couple reasons they were added: 1. Because I felt I need to "control" my team to be successful 2. The assistant coach is constantly barking at me telling me to add more TIs (both outside and during games). 3. Reacting to poor results and trying to "fix" problems I felt I saw. What's the deal with the assistant coach, I trusted him a lot with his advice and I feel like now that I'm ignoring him I'm doing much better.

2. I didn't fully understand how player roles and player instructions worked nor did I understand the default player behavior that is inherent to the game or certain players. Reading the responses has helped me immensely but outside of that I'm not sure how I would have learned this. Any advice?

3. Lastly I watched a video and started to understand how to use opponent scouting and analytics to help counter their tactics however that also led to a lot of the TI bloat you saw. When is it appropriate to start analyzing and making changes to my tactics to counter an opponent?

I would say in response to your points, look at each player and get a feel for what kind of system could work with what you have at your disposal. Youll have a few KEY players, so for Real Madrid youre looking at the likes of Kroos and Modric, Bale, the two centrebacks being a natural pairing etc. So it begins to fall into place that for example, a back 4 will suit the team more than a back three would, etc.

 

Then, look at the players preferred moves, PPM's. Just from memory, Marcelo for example has lots of interesting PPM's, he likes to underlap, get forward at every possible opportunity, get into the box. So by looking at this, you can see he is very skilful, but he is also unpredictable (in a good way). So he would be a really good fit for an inverted wingback role, or a complete wingback role.

This allows him to form a natural relationship with the left sided midfielder or attacking midfielder. Lets suppose you then pick an advanced playmaker ahead of him. As your advanced playmaker drifts inside with the ball, Marcelo can run past him down the left and overlap him. OR, he could make a run for the box and be on the end of a pass.

If you set a team instruction to "overlap left" though, you will limit his movements into making him look for the overlap MORE OFTEN and less on the underlap. That might not be a desirable characteristic.

But then, in your left midfielder slot, maybe youll then want some cover that if he bombs forwards and you lose possession, youre not wide open down your left hand side.

So then, Id look to utilise a role in midfield where that player will be a little more defensive minded and he will shuffle across and fill in the gap when necessary. Maybe Kroos could play as a deep lying playmaker for example and thread balls wide, but also act as a defensive player.

This is an example of then building the roles for the team. Ignore the little pie icons, they might be yellow, they don't have to be all bright green, but its about using your players in combinations with each other to become a successful team. Basic stuff really that everyone knows....... midfielder sits, another one goes forward. Big man little man up front back in the day, two examples of very simple combinations, but its the same thought process.

 

Player preferred moves are the things that have most effect, so that might be where you might introduce a player instruction or PI. Lets say your player is a midfield player and one of his preferred moves is that he gets forward at every opportunity, but your formation doesn't want him to do that. You can tell him to "hold position", in other words stop going forwards and play with more discipline.

 

Also, the assistant coach says what he says because he has his own preferred way of playing, his preferred pressing style, preferred mentality etc, and you can see this on the staff screen. So when he is constantly talking to you, he is stressing HIS preferences on how HE thinks the team should play, to you. Not all of his advice will work for your team, or make sense, unless you set the team up just like he wants. So be selective about what you take on board from him.

 

 

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When is it advisable to put in instructions for overlaps or underlaps? I'm trying a similar system but I find myself facing the same issues. I don't create enough at home and struggle to compete for possession away.

About the attack/support combination in the final third, (forgive me, my understanding of football isn't that concrete) how does one create space in systems that are naturally possession oriented? The space in the final third is compressed and the inside forward with the attack duty is marked tightly with no space to run into. I find most of my goals coming from counters or crosses that fall to midfielders. I'm not sure how to go about creating chances that a possession based system normally creates. My wide forwards especially don't deliver nearly as many goals or assists. 

Is it contradictory to have an advanced playmaker in the wide forward position as well as an AP in the CM position? If so what other roles would be synergistic for the wide forward? An inside forward on attack behind a supporting deep lying forward? 

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                           CF(S)

     IF(A)                                       T(A)

                    Mez(S)  AP(A)

                           HB (D)

   WB(S)     BPD(D)    CD(D)     WB(S)

                          SK(D)

Positive mentality/Structured shape

Shorter passing, lower tempo, be more expressive, fairly wide, zero time wasting

Transition: press immediately, counter, goalkeeper distributes quickly, to centre back

Out of position: high line of engagement, high defensive line, offside trap

My current roles and instructions.

Edited by LordKaivalya

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30 minutes ago, LordKaivalya said:

Is it contradictory to have an advanced playmaker in the wide forward position as well as an AP in the CM position?

You mean both at the same time or...?

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1 hour ago, LordKaivalya said:

Both at the same time, yes. 

Well, my personal choice would be to avoid two (or more) playmakers of the same type playing in the same system, but I cannot claim for sure that it's inherently a bad idea (perhaps some people have good experiences with such a combination). What I like to have in a system like yours (4141DM Wide) is a DLP in a CM position and an APM in a wide forward position, preferably not on the same side. For example, if my DLP is in the MCR position, then the APM would be in the AML position (and vice versa). However, there is an exception to the rule. If I want to create an overload, then having the DLP and APM on the same side (e.g. in the MCL and AML positions respectively) can be a good idea. But when deciding about using any role in any position, what you need to consider (among other important factors) is whether you have the right player for a certain role (and duty).

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Was struggling absolutely horrendously with a well developed Vinicius Jr. at IF (L). He had average ratings of 6.3 across 7-8 games. Since I've plopped him to the AP(S) role he's been significantly better. From what I've seen the IF role is a real shot vacuum and Vinicius specifically has poor long shots.

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11 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

The main issue with real madrid IMO is competing in 5 competitions with a tiny squad.

 

Bale is injured for me for 5 months and Ronaldo gone all together so a rethink is needed

COMPLETELY AGREE. If it wasn't for ceballos and asensio I would have been done for long ago. I took the setup above and coupled it with a possession based slow build up for the tougher games and so far it has netted me amazing success. Will post some screenshots later but I'm now up to 1st in LaLiga as well as in the finals for the cup and in the quarters for the UCL. I'm starting to work on the squad issues and have picked up Mustafi in the back and grabbed Palacios from River just like RM did in RL. Believe it or not but Benzema is awful for me and I'll be moving him out in the summer if I can. Mariano has been amazing and is up there with Suarez and Rodrigo for most goals in LaLiga. Going to try and grab another AF/PF in the summer.

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Wanted to follow up and say while my high-pressure tactic works well my more conservative version seems to struggle. I need something to use against powerful counter-attacking teams who pressure me back so looking for some advice.

fm_2018-11-26_16-51-12.png

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39 minutes ago, copper said:

I need something to use against powerful counter-attacking teams who pressure me back so looking for some advice.

You are Real Madrid, so I'm curious to know who specifically are those "powerful" teams pressuring you back? Maybe Barca or Atletico? And who else?

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5 minutes ago, copper said:

Man city, juve and Liverpool in the CL

Okay then. Another question: do you play with the lower d-line and LOE only against these strong teams or always? And what's your reasoning behind it?

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My reasoning was to avoid conceding on the break to fast attackers while trying to allow space for the counter if I notice they are pressing high up the pitch. 

 

In my tactic I use against weaker teams I run a higher defensive line and tend to use counter press. This generates lots of pressure and opportunities on those teams but has left me vulnerable against strong opposition. 

Edited by copper

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1 minute ago, copper said:

My reasoning was to avoid conceding on the break to fast attackers while trying to allow space for the counter if I notice they are pressing high up the pitch. 

But as far as I know, Real has top-quality defenders, and Ramos is among the best CBs in the world. Maybe he is no longer as fast as he was before, but is still very intelligent, has very good positioning and can read the game very well. And I suppose your other defenders are also top-class. And if you want to play a bit more cautiously, rather than simply lowering lines of defending, I would make changes to some other tactical settings. I'd first change certain roles and duties in your system, but I cannot tell you which ones exactly unless you post screenshots of your players' profiles.

As for team instructions, I'd start with the following:

In possession: normal tempo, slightly shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box.

In transition: counter, regroup (against tougher sides), distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession: lower LOE, standard d-line, more urgent

But again, it is some of the roles and duties that seem most problematic to me.

 

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Thanks! This worked for the most part and allowed me to beat Athletico 4-0 which was an amazing result. There were still some flaws but they were made up for with individual performances. I'm trying to learn how to analyze my previous matches to see how the system is playing, where mistakes are being made, and how attack (or lack there of) is forming. Here is what I have so far:

 

1. Modric/Kroos as DLPs are not generating very many key passes at all

2. Odriazola/Centelles as WB/CWB lose the ball A LOT in my half

3. Casemiro misplaces a lot of passes from inside/around my penalty area

4. Asensio as IF-S is generating a larger amount of key passes then I would have thought (when he's on the field he accounts for 80% of my offense)

5. My striker tends to be farther back then I'd like and doesn't generate many chances.

6. My BPD also tends to generate interceptions.

 

I've attached some of the key players I feel aren't "working" like I want them to.

Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 10.15.50 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 10.17.01 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 10.16.01 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 10.16.26 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 10.16.47 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 10.18.18 AM.png

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1 hour ago, copper said:

This worked for the most part and allowed me to beat Athletico 4-0 which was an amazing result. There were still some flaws but they were made up for with individual performances

Were you making any tactical tweaks during the match or you just left it unchanged from beginning to end?

Also, did you use any PIs?

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Sorry I wasn't clear. This was PAST matches without the changes you supplied. The Athleti game is a good test because I changed nothing outside of your recommendations. In this game it was an example of Asensio making the key passes and even casemiro making some but Modric played 70 minutes and had no key passes. Asensio had 2 goals and 2 assists and therefore was involved in every goal. His 2 goals came through assists from the striker and didn't seem to involve modric at all. Ceballos (the other mid) is getting involved more than modric it seems and so is Casemiro. Varane (my BPD) gave up the 2nd most interceptions behind Ceballos and due to having Marcelo and Carvajal on the WB the interception rate out wide was very limited. 

Modric did have the most completed passes and the least amount of intercepted passes however...

Edited by copper

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1 hour ago, copper said:

The Athleti game is a good test because I changed nothing outside of your recommendations

So you played the game against Atletico (4-0) with the (basic) team instructions that I recommended to you? Or I misunderstood you again?

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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

So you played the game against Atletico (4-0) with the (basic) team instructions that I recommended to you? Or I misunderstood you again?

Correct. removed everything else and played ONLY the team instructions you gave me with the roles in the original screenshot I posted here:

 

21 hours ago, copper said:

Wanted to follow up and say while my high-pressure tactic works well my more conservative version seems to struggle. I need something to use against powerful counter-attacking teams who pressure me back so looking for some advice.

fm_2018-11-26_16-51-12.png

 

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You seem to be having some bad away games, thats kinda my problem too and I don't know how to fix it

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1 hour ago, copper said:

Correct. removed everything else and played ONLY the team instructions you gave me with the roles in the original screenshot I posted here:

 

Okay. Now, can you post screenshots (profiles) of Marcelo, Ceballos, Asensio and Vazquez? I'd like to analyze them so that I could tell you how I would use each of them (and why) in terms of roles and duties, and in relation to your system as a whole. Because roles and duties still seem to be your major problem in spite of the really good result against Atletico. Of course, I'll explain each suggestion I give you.

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Awesome! I added Isco and Bale too since they are normally slotted into the IF roles depending on fitness/injuries. I'm very excited to hear the explanations. I'm really enjoying the game and trying to learn as much as I can so I can apply it to this save and others! Thank you for all your help.

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fm_2018-11-27_15-42-39.png

fm_2018-11-27_15-42-53.png

fm_2018-11-27_15-43-24.png

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2 hours ago, copper said:

Awesome! I added Isco and Bale too since they are normally slotted into the IF roles depending on fitness/injuries. I'm very excited to hear the explanations. I'm really enjoying the game and trying to learn as much as I can so I can apply it to this save and others! Thank you for all your help.

Great, thank you for the screenshots :thup:

So, after analyzing all the players, this would be my distribution of roles and duties in your 4141DM Wide system:

PFs

APMs                                 RMD

MEZa     DLPs

ACM

IWBs      CD      CD        WBs

SWKd/s

And these would be my first-choice eleven for these roles and duties (except GK and CBs):

LB (IWBs) - Marcelo (explanation: Marcelo can play virtually any full/wing-back role, but in this particular setup I would use him as IWB on support in order to both serve as the cover for the attacking mezzala and be more directly involved in creation of attacks by the midfield)

RB (WBs) - Odriozola (I think his attributes and PPMs speak for themselves. He could also be very good as a FB on attack, but in this particular system it would be too risky to have both wide players on the right on attack duty, so WB on support is a better option IMO. You can occasionally even change him to a simple fullback on support (or wing-back on defend) if you note that the right flank is vulnerable to opposition counter-attacks, especially when playing against tougher opponents)

DM (ACM) - Casemiro (I don't know who are your other defensive-minded DMs, but I suppose Casemiro is the best one you currently have. I gave him the anchorman role here only because it is the most simple and most defensive DM role and should therefore provide the most solid protection to your back-line, but of course he could also play as a half-back)

MCR (DLPs) - Kroos or Modrić (depending on who is in better condition at the moment. Both are great players for this role that perfectly suits the system. DLP on support will have a good number of passing options at any time given how the teammates around him are set up, so he can patiently play safe and simple passes until a great opportunity occurs for a killer ball. And both Kroos and Modric are very intelligent players who can assess when the right time is for such a pass)

MCM (MEZa) - Asensio (a fantastic player who can play a number of creative offensive roles, but in this setup of roles and duties it's the mezzala role that would suit him best. And he definitely has all the needed attributes (as well as PPMs) to do the job)

AML (APMs) - Isco (I think when you look at his attributes - passing, vision, flair, technique, first touch, off the ball decisions, anticipation, composure - and his PPMs, it's clear why he is ideal for an advanced playmaker role. And then if you see that his stronger foot is right, it is perfectly logical to use him on the left flank, from where he can create a lot of great stuff)

AMR (RMD) - Bale (another "magic" player that can play so many roles, but in this system I would prefer him as a raumdeuter on the right, primarily because of his finishing, off the ball, anticipation, speed, technique, first touch and of course - his left-footedness. What might be problematic though are his relatively "low" composure, concentration and decisions, so if you note that he does not play as well as expected, just change him to inside forward on attack. P.S: I would also try Bale as a complete forward on support occasionally)

ST (PFs) - Belotti (I don't know which else natural strikers you have, but if Belotti is your best one, I would use him as a pressing forward on support. Having him on support duty (instead of attack) does not mean he is not going to find himself in good scoring positions inside the box - of course he will. He could also be a very good poacher, but I fear that in this particular system such an advanced role would make him too isolated up front. As a pressing fwd on support, he will be more involved in the build-ups, but would also put more pressure on opposition defenders when you are out of possession. And given his work-rate, aggression and determination, he should have no problem playing as a pressing fwd)

And of course, if you have any further questions, feel free to ask :thup:

Edited by Experienced Defender

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Thank you so much! So when it comes to deciding if someone is good at a role is it safe to just go by what the game is highlighting? 

Belotti is currently my best Striker but I feel I need to spend some money there since it's just him and Mariano. 

Lastly, is it better to make the formations and decide what roles work best and then fit players into those spots? I don't think I would have understood that I needed a mezalla or raumdeuter without your help and wasn't sure about having more than one playmaker. 

I'm trying to understand how if given a completely new team I could replicate (well kinda hehe) what you did. I understand not leaving a side exposed with too many attack roles but when it comes to the non generic roles like mez rmd dlp etc I don't understand the nuance enough to know what good or bad they can do in my system. 

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16 hours ago, copper said:

So when it comes to deciding if someone is good at a role is it safe to just go by what the game is highlighting?

It's hard to tell whether it's "safe" or "unsafe", but my personal preference is to look at a player's attributes and PPMs (traits), rather than what the game recommends.

 

16 hours ago, copper said:

Lastly, is it better to make the formations and decide what roles work best and then fit players into those spots? I don't think I would have understood that I needed a mezalla or raumdeuter without your help and wasn't sure about having more than one playmaker. 

There is no rule as to what is "better". Some people prefer creating a tactic first and then fitting players into it. But I am the opposite case - I make tactics based on the type of players I have at my disposal. And it pertains to both the formation and roles and duties. However, I do make changes (adjustments) to my basic tactic, both during matches and between them. Therefore I do not have an universal "super" tactic which I use for every team, let alone every match. All my tactical (and not only tactical) decisions are based on careful analysis. 

 

17 hours ago, copper said:

I'm trying to understand how if given a completely new team I could replicate (well kinda hehe) what you did

I would not recommend you to replicate this "my" tactic with another team, because I "made" it specifically for your Real Madrid and the players you have in the squad. But it does not mean that it would work with some other team. Because each team is a different story.

17 hours ago, copper said:

I understand not leaving a side exposed with too many attack roles but when it comes to the non generic roles like mez rmd dlp etc I don't understand the nuance enough to know what good or bad they can do in my system. 

I think the in-game descriptions of each role are quite satisfactory, you just need to read them carefully. And player instructions (both hard-coded and selectable ones) can also tell you a lot about a particular role.

17 hours ago, copper said:

Belotti is currently my best Striker but I feel I need to spend some money there since it's just him and Mariano.

Bale can also be used as a striker (as I suggested in a previous post). Btw. could you post a screenshot of Mariano's profile, as well as Ramos, Varane, Carvajal and Nacho?

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12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would not recommend you to replicate this "my" tactic with another team, because I "made" it specifically for your Real Madrid and the players you have in the squad. But it does not mean that it would work with some other team. Because each team is a different story.

Apologies, I didn't mean replicating the exact tactic above, I meant the process you went through to create it based on the attributes, PPMs, and style of play. I know this will be a long process of learning what PPMs are good for what role as well as what Roles have one affect on how the system functions just trying to gain that insight from understanding how one tactic was created so I could possibly apply some of what I learn in other places.

 

I've attached a large chunk of the rest of the team as well as the specific profiles you requested.

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.53.29 PM.png

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Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.53.58 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.54.14 PM.png

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Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.54.39 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.54.51 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.55.00 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.55.29 PM.png

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4 hours ago, copper said:

Apologies, I didn't mean replicating the exact tactic above, I meant the process you went through to create it based on the attributes, PPMs, and style of play. I know this will be a long process of learning what PPMs are good for what role as well as what Roles have one affect on how the system functions just trying to gain that insight from understanding how one tactic was created so I could possibly apply some of what I learn in other places.

It's impossible (at least for me) to tell you everything you should take into account when creating a tactic, because there are so many factors that I would definitely forget to mention something (plus, there are various approaches to tactic creation, and mine is just one of many, so you should not rely solely on my advice). However, I'll try to emphasize some of (IMO) key principles which I personally use:

- analyze the structure of your players, both the squad as a whole and divided into parts (defense, defensive and central midfield, attacking midfield and attack)

- analyze the comparison section in the team report to see where your team generally stands relative to the rest of the league

- when choosing a formation, pay attention to where the strengths and weaknesses of your team are (for example, if your defenders aren't of the best quality, having a DM, or even two, would be more than worth considering, because your d-line would likely need some added protection; alternatively, if you at the same time have a lot of quality in creative midfield and attack, you may decide to ignore your defensive vulnerabilities and opt to use the "score one more" strategy instead)

- as for the selection of roles and duties - as I already said, look at attributes and PPMs, and read in-game descriptions for each role (you can also see if a player has good attribute ratings for a certain role in his profile - when you select a role and duty, the game will show both key and preferable attributes for it). Now, there are players who can play more or less equally well in more than just one role, so they will be easier to fit into different systems. But it is not enough to just assign each player to a suitable role and duty. You also need to understand the interaction between various roles and duties within a given system. When it comes to duties, the first thing I look at is balance - i.e. how I cover defensively for the players set to attack, and do I have enough players on support duty to allow for smooth transitions, both from defence to attack and vice versa

Remember, these are just a few of many principles you need to bear in mind when creating a tactic.

4 hours ago, copper said:

I've attached a large chunk of the rest of the team as well as the specific profiles you requested.

Thanks mate! I'll analyze these guys and tell you my opinion in a later post.

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There is very little difference between Odriozola and Carvajal, so you have a pretty good choice in the RB position. And both are IMO most suitable for the same role and duty - WB on support. Or in tougher games - either FB on support or WB on defend.

The same goes for Belotti and Mariano - I see both as pressing forwards in your current 4141dm wide system, but both could also play as a poacher in a different tactical setup.

Raphael Varane is your best CB in my opinion, and maybe you could consider using him on the cover duty (at least in tougher matches). I saw that you used him as a BPD, which he can play of course, though I generally tend to avoid giving the BPD role to my defenders, no matter how good they are with the ball. Instead, when I have a technically skillful centre-back, I like to play him as a standard CD, but with passing set to mixed (standard), so that he can decide when to play a safe simple pass, and when to try something more adventurous. Important attributes - passing, vision, technique, decisions, anticipation. Maybe Ramos would be even a better option for a defender playing this way.

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

There is very little difference between Odriozola and Carvajal, so you have a pretty good choice in the RB position. And both are IMO most suitable for the same role and duty - WB on support. Or in tougher games - either FB on support or WB on defend.

The same goes for Belotti and Mariano - I see both as pressing forwards in your current 4141dm wide system, but both could also play as a poacher in a different tactical setup.

Raphael Varane is your best CB in my opinion, and maybe you could consider using him on the cover duty (at least in tougher matches). I saw that you used him as a BPD, which he can play of course, though I generally tend to avoid giving the BPD role to my defenders, no matter how good they are with the ball. Instead, when I have a technically skillful centre-back, I like to play him as a standard CD, but with passing set to mixed (standard), so that he can decide when to play a safe simple pass, and when to try something more adventurous. Important attributes - passing, vision, technique, decisions, anticipation. Maybe Ramos would be even a better option for a defender playing this way.

Very informative insights in this discussion so thank you Experienced Defender. 

 

When it comes to PIs, what would your strategy be for assigning those? Maybe you could give examples using his team?

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Thanks very much for all your help. I've played a number of games and and performed really well. Dropped some points here or there but that's expected just as in real life. I'm now trying to learn how to make adjustments during the match based on what I'm seeing. I'm really enjoying using the 2D view to get a better idea of what is going on.

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18 hours ago, The Roaming Regista said:

When it comes to PIs, what would your strategy be for assigning those?

There is no "strategy". I have a couple of basic principles, which essentially come down to - "do not ask a player to do what he isn't capable of" (look at his attributes) and "think of how the PIs you give to each player will affect not only the way he is expected to perform, but your overall tactic as well". And I always look to visualize my tactics, asking myself "if I do this, how is that going to affect that". And last but not least, do not use too many instructions (either team or players') just for the sake of using them or because they may look "attractive".

And perhaps most important, I regularly make adjustments to a tactic based on both analysis of an opponent and what I see on the pitch during a particular match. But what I look to avoid is changing the formation too often, and even when I occasionally change it (but really very rarely), it must be akin to the one I normally use with the team I currently manage (e.g. if I normally play a 4231wide, my alternative formation can be a 4411 or 433wide*, but not 442 or 4141dm wide).

*433wide is not the one with 3 strikers, but with 3 CMs and 2 wide forwards (AML & AMR).

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