Manchester City Pep Guardiola Tactic Recreation

[jc577]

I've been re-watching a lot of city's goals from last season, and there's a couple of observations to point out. 

Firstly, the combinations on the left are a lot more prominent than on the right. Silva/Sane work a lot closer in tandem that Sterling/De Bruyne for example and play is concentrated down this flank a lot more also. You need to get the pair working close together. Another thing I've noticed is that Sane is quite aggressive with his runs in-behind, being played through on goal by through balls from Silva after quick one-twos, or lofted/diagonal balls from De Bruyne. I'd give him the WM-A role with Stay wider, dribble more and maybe cross more often, but I'm not sure on this. 

The Silva/De Bruyne tandem is hard to pinpoint. Silva is definitely more aggressive than De Bruyne, he likes to get in the box more often and is much higher up in the half-space. I think De Bruyne has more license to roam about the pitch, and isn't just limited to the HS, but still occupies it when needed. I'd go with Mez-S for Silva - could argue attack duty might be necessary, but he is City's primary controller imo so an attack duty might be too aggressive. De Bruyne I'd go with CM-S, with pi's of: roam from position, move into channels, and maybe more risky passes so he looks for those killer balls to Sane/Sterling (not sure if he has the ppm.) 

Sterling's role is the hardest to get. He's always either attacking the back post or making runs centrally into the box, and his role is more focused on off-the-ball runs rather than running with the ball, which is the opposite of Sane's role. He definitely has license to leave the flank, so I'd go WM-A with the PIs: Stay wider (for build-up purposes), roam from position, and get him to learn the trait 'moves into channels' if he doesn't have it. 

There's so much more I could write but it's almost half 4 and i've got an exam in the morning 

[Ivan787]

With regard to the left chain I found a lot of improvement in using Roam From position both from Sanè WM(a) and Silva Mez(s). They interchange a lot.

In addition I did an experiment in using in D. Silva role Bernardo Silva, after teaching him the trait "Gets into opposite area". I think this PPM help a lot.

 

[Codename47]

5 hours ago, jc577 said:

I've been re-watching a lot of city's goals from last season, and there's a couple of observations to point out. 

Firstly, the combinations on the left are a lot more prominent than on the right. Silva/Sane work a lot closer in tandem that Sterling/De Bruyne for example and play is concentrated down this flank a lot more also. You need to get the pair working close together. Another thing I've noticed is that Sane is quite aggressive with his runs in-behind, being played through on goal by through balls from Silva after quick one-twos, or lofted/diagonal balls from De Bruyne. I'd give him the WM-A role with Stay wider, dribble more and maybe cross more often, but I'm not sure on this. 

The Silva/De Bruyne tandem is hard to pinpoint. Silva is definitely more aggressive than De Bruyne, he likes to get in the box more often and is much higher up in the half-space. I think De Bruyne has more license to roam about the pitch, and isn't just limited to the HS, but still occupies it when needed. I'd go with Mez-S for Silva - could argue attack duty might be necessary, but he is City's primary controller imo so an attack duty might be too aggressive. De Bruyne I'd go with CM-S, with pi's of: roam from position, move into channels, and maybe more risky passes so he looks for those killer balls to Sane/Sterling (not sure if he has the ppm.) 

Sterling's role is the hardest to get. He's always either attacking the back post or making runs centrally into the box, and his role is more focused on off-the-ball runs rather than running with the ball, which is the opposite of Sane's role. He definitely has license to leave the flank, so I'd go WM-A with the PIs: Stay wider (for build-up purposes), roam from position, and get him to learn the trait 'moves into channels' if he doesn't have it. 

There's so much more I could write but it's almost half 4 and i've got an exam in the morning 

Very interesting read here:

https://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2019/1/16/18183556/manchester-city-tactics-the-benefits-of-proper-fullbacks-tactical-analysis-wolverhampton-wolves

[kurupted]

Guys, maybe use W-S in a 4-3-3 formation but the Wingers must have "Hold the position"

About having wingers on attack duty, i dont really think that fit how they play under guardiola's orders, because when you play W-A they become a very selfish player

[Ivan787]

1 ora fa, kurupted ha scritto:

Guys, maybe use W-S in a 4-3-3 formation but the Wingers must have "Hold the position"

About having wingers on attack duty, i dont really think that fit how they play under guardiola's orders, because when you play W-A they become a very selfish player

I don't like winger role in this FM.

When I used them, both on ML/MR than AML/AMR, I always saw players that dribble more and more to the touchline, with too many crosses...not really what I want from those players.

[Ivan787]

3 ore fa, Codename47 ha scritto:

Very interesting read here:

https://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2019/1/16/18183556/manchester-city-tactics-the-benefits-of-proper-fullbacks-tactical-analysis-wolverhampton-wolves 

Interesting about the fullbacks role.

But the build-up phase, in my opinion, is the only phase that we have the instruments to replicate. Is easy to have that passes pattern with very low risk.....the trouble begins in the final third.....

[zatoclife]

15 hours ago, jc577 said:

I've been re-watching a lot of city's goals from last season, and there's a couple of observations to point out. 

Firstly, the combinations on the left are a lot more prominent than on the right. Silva/Sane work a lot closer in tandem that Sterling/De Bruyne for example and play is concentrated down this flank a lot more also. You need to get the pair working close together. Another thing I've noticed is that Sane is quite aggressive with his runs in-behind, being played through on goal by through balls from Silva after quick one-twos, or lofted/diagonal balls from De Bruyne. I'd give him the WM-A role with Stay wider, dribble more and maybe cross more often, but I'm not sure on this. 

The Silva/De Bruyne tandem is hard to pinpoint. Silva is definitely more aggressive than De Bruyne, he likes to get in the box more often and is much higher up in the half-space. I think De Bruyne has more license to roam about the pitch, and isn't just limited to the HS, but still occupies it when needed. I'd go with Mez-S for Silva - could argue attack duty might be necessary, but he is City's primary controller imo so an attack duty might be too aggressive. De Bruyne I'd go with CM-S, with pi's of: roam from position, move into channels, and maybe more risky passes so he looks for those killer balls to Sane/Sterling (not sure if he has the ppm.) 

Sterling's role is the hardest to get. He's always either attacking the back post or making runs centrally into the box, and his role is more focused on off-the-ball runs rather than running with the ball, which is the opposite of Sane's role. He definitely has license to leave the flank, so I'd go WM-A with the PIs: Stay wider (for build-up purposes), roam from position, and get him to learn the trait 'moves into channels' if he doesn't have it. 

There's so much more I could write but it's almost half 4 and i've got an exam in the morning 

Idk but I think Sterling is more like Raumdeuter for me, but I never use this role before.

[kurupted]

I think ive found the trick.

Currently im using.

Sweeper Keeper-A

2 IWB-D (in this game)

Defensive Midfielder-S

Mezzala-S

Mezzala-A

2 IF's

F9 (i switched to AF later in the game).

The trick here is: i have the 2 IF's with "Stick to position" PI, this with Very Wide can recreate how the wingers act, when the ball is in the box, the IF's go the box.

As you can see in the picture, i have my DM (number 22) to recycle the ball, we have the number 18, that is the Mezzala-S (that is KDB, he doesnt enter the box), we have number 21, that is the MEZ-A, along with the AF and the 2 if's, what you see in the wings, is that the IWB are high up in the pitch, so they draw the opposite full backs, creating a lot of space as you can see. Thats precisely what i want.

[Hoosier_76]

17 minutes ago, kurupted said:

I think ive found the trick.

Currently im using.

Sweeper Keeper-A

2 IWB-D (in this game)

Defensive Midfielder-S

Mezzala-S

Mezzala-A

2 IF's

F9 (i switched to AF later in the game).

The trick here is: i have the 2 IF's with "Stick to position" PI, this with Very Wide can recreate how the wingers act, when the ball is in the box, the IF's go the box.

As you can see in the picture, i have my DM (number 22) to recycle the ball, we have the number 18, that is the Mezzala-S (that is KDB, he doesnt enter the box), we have number 21, that is the MEZ-A, along with the AF and the 2 if's, what you see in the wings, is that the IWB are high up in the pitch, so they draw the opposite full backs, creating a lot of space as you can see. Thats precisely what i want.

I've found F9s to be totally useless so far this year (and support strikers in general). They've been working for you?

[kurupted]

Thats the most common problem in general FM players.

The movimentations and the role itself of a False 9 IT ISNT to score goals, if you said AF, yes, he only looks for goal, but a F9 does a lot more than that ! You need to think what will he do in your formation, in that specific match, in the beginning i used him as F9, why ? Cause i noticed the roles of the opposite full backs and midfield, and i saw they would have a lot of presence in the midfield, like i said, in that particular game i used Inverted-Wing and the F9, i got to a lead of 1-0 as you can see, and at the beginning of the second half I chosed to use an AF-A, why ? Cause i wanted him to try to break the defensive line, making the opposite defenders to care to much about him instead of playing free and recycling the ball from their midfield.

About what you said, you need to pay attention what the movimentations are! A F9 usually drops deeper, his function ISNT to score goals ! Of course he can score goals when the opportunity arises, but that isnt what he will do ! A F9 will often drop deeper, dragging a opposite defender and creating a space, thats WHAT HE DOES.

 

[Hoosier_76]

@kurupted Ah, I did a poor job making what I meant clear. When I said they were useless I wasn't referring to scoring goals, in my experience this year f9s haven't been dropping deep, creating space, or really contributing to build up play in any meaningful way. They just kinda hang out farther up the pitch like a normal striker.

I really hope they address striker movement in the next patch. 

[argenmik]

6 hours ago, kurupted said:

I think ive found the trick.

Currently im using.

Sweeper Keeper-A

2 IWB-D (in this game)

Defensive Midfielder-S

Mezzala-S

Mezzala-A

2 IF's

F9 (i switched to AF later in the game).

The trick here is: i have the 2 IF's with "Stick to position" PI, this with Very Wide can recreate how the wingers act, when the ball is in the box, the IF's go the box.

As you can see in the picture, i have my DM (number 22) to recycle the ball, we have the number 18, that is the Mezzala-S (that is KDB, he doesnt enter the box), we have number 21, that is the MEZ-A, along with the AF and the 2 if's, what you see in the wings, is that the IWB are high up in the pitch, so they draw the opposite full backs, creating a lot of space as you can see. Thats precisely what i want.

I’m not sure this is what everyone is trying to achieve to be honest the inside forwards haven’t stayed wide and unless I’ve completely misunderstood it’s the fullbacks who are providing all the width when wouldn’t we want them closer to the am centrally? I may have misunderstood the screenshot but it doesn’t seem right to me 

[Ivan787]

1 ora fa, argenmik ha scritto:

I’m not sure this is what everyone is trying to achieve to be honest the inside forwards haven’t stayed wide and unless I’ve completely misunderstood it’s the fullbacks who are providing all the width when wouldn’t we want them closer to the am centrally? I may have misunderstood the screenshot but it doesn’t seem right to me 

I agree with you. Fullbacks (Inverted wingbacks) should stay closer to DM. During attack phase the position should be a 2-3-5 or, at least, 3-2-5 if you use an HB. But Fullbacks should be definitely narrower than wingers.

[kurupted]

I guess that depends on what duty you use them, probably they go more wide cause they have PPM's to do so, maybe IWB-D can do that trick

[kurupted]

6 horas atrás, argenmik disse:

I’m not sure this is what everyone is trying to achieve to be honest the inside forwards haven’t stayed wide and unless I’ve completely misunderstood it’s the fullbacks who are providing all the width when wouldn’t we want them closer to the am centrally? I may have misunderstood the screenshot but it doesn’t seem right to me 

Look where the ball is, ball is in the opposite box, the wingers need to go into the box, the full backs are only a detail

[tacticalthoughts]

I've read a lot of people having issues scoring and it's just a lot of back and forth passing. Increase you mentality if you aren't getting forwards passing. I only ever play on Attacking or Very Attacking now. You can still get 60%+ possession with lots of short passing but you also get players willing to throw in early crosses or play more balls into space.

[Ivan787]

35 minuti fa, tacticalthoughts ha scritto:

I've read a lot of people having issues scoring and it's just a lot of back and forth passing. Increase you mentality if you aren't getting forwards passing. I only ever play on Attacking or Very Attacking now. You can still get 60%+ possession with lots of short passing but you also get players willing to throw in early crosses or play more balls into space.

Yes this is true but the aim of the thread is to replicate how Man City plays. Increasing mentality is absolutely a solution in making forward players more "risky" but this will cause a wrong build up phase in defenders and IWB.

[Ivan787]

1 ora fa, kurupted ha scritto:

Look where the ball is, ball is in the opposite box, the wingers need to go into the box, the full backs are only a detail

I'm not sure about this. When the ball is in that zones wingers should still be wide, waiting for the ball, because Fullbacks are narrow and in supporting role. When the ball goes to one winger (eg. Sanè) than the other one gets into penalty area to receive the cross.....

[tacticalthoughts]

1 hour ago, Ivan787 said:

Yes this is true but the aim of the thread is to replicate how Man City plays. Increasing mentality is absolutely a solution in making forward players more "risky" but this will cause a wrong build up phase in defenders and IWB.

I disgaree. Playing on Attacking still gives the ability to replicate a similar style. If you reduce the mentality too much then it's just sideways and backwards passes and the AI bunkers into it's own box and you never break them down. Lots of 1 - 0, 0 - 0.

[kurupted]

I guess you really guys don't understand.

Go watch a Man City match, when the ball is around the box, the wingers AREN'T in the touchline, they both converge to the box, creating a 5 man inside the box.

Another thing, people talk about mentality, mentality is risk, what do i mean with this ? Pep's Barcelona DIDN'T use a high risk mentality, their players didn't do stupid passes. If you remember, the barcelona from that time usually was passing around and passing around, and if they DIDNT SEE ANY BREACH TO EXPLOIT they just "reset" the play, passing around, passing around and passing around. What do you think the risk there is ? They only do that key passe when the opportunity arises! The attacking mentality means that the players will try to do more through balls, the problem with that is: you can't pass into space or do a key pass when your opponent is well positioned. Guardiola team play SURELY low risk mentalitys, the same happens with current Man City, i will not talk about the tempo (i think they play normal tempo), im talking about risk, Pep's Man City usually pass around, pass and move, they pass around and they only do a key pass when they find space to exploit (half-spaces, wings), if they dont find space they keep passing around and passing around.

[jc577]

The more I read this thread, the more I’m realising it’s actually impossible to replicate how City play. We can all debate on mentality, tempo etc but it’s frutile. What’s important is understanding the principles of how City play, and emulating them in the game. That is something we actually have control over. So, the 2-3-5 split in possession, whether that be with Wingers/IWBs or IF/WBs, is where I’d start. Also, for me personally, chance creation > possession. Possession in FM is rather easy to accumulate, but creating chances on the other hand is a bit more difficult, and that’s where the challenge truly lies. 

[kurupted]

18 horas atrás, tacticalthoughts disse:

I disgaree. Playing on Attacking still gives the ability to replicate a similar style. If you reduce the mentality too much then it's just sideways and backwards passes and the AI bunkers into it's own box and you never break them down. Lots of 1 - 0, 0 - 0.

By the way, who told you cant play Attacking mentality and still dominate possession ?

[Ivan787]

Some observation from last match against Huddersfield.

In the first picture we saw the typical attacking pattern of 2-3-5 but here Sterling is in the half-space, KDB on a support role and Walker is acting like a true winger on the right.

And this is the 1-0 , again Sterling in a freerole, with Walker as IWB and Gundogan in a more offensive role than KDB.

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, Ivan787 said:

Some observation from last match against Huddersfield.

In the first picture we saw the typical attacking pattern of 2-3-5 but here Sterling is in the half-space, KDB on a support role and Walker is acting like a true winger on the right.

And this is the 1-0 , again Sterling in a freerole, with Walker as IWB and Gundogan in a more offensive role than KDB.

Nice screens. The more I read and see about Guardiola the more easy it becomes to translate into FM. The 2-3-5 in possession is the one we should go and replicate and adapt it to the teams we manage. That shape goes back to his Barcelona days imo, just varied a little because of the players he had.

[argenmik]

1 hour ago, Gegenklaus said:

Nice screens. The more I read and see about Guardiola the more easy it becomes to translate into FM. The 2-3-5 in possession is the one we should go and replicate and adapt it to the teams we manage. That shape goes back to his Barcelona days imo, just varied a little because of the players he had.

exactly, sometimes the fullbacks provide the width sometimes the central midfielders sometimes the winger. sometimes its fluid (abidal, iniesta, villa/walker, DKB or Bernardo, Sterling) and sometimes its more fixed (delph or zinchenko or danilo, Silva, Sane).

its purely dependent on the players he has.

so for fm you have to interpret this for your own squad. only way to achieve the more fluid version is to switch tactics during the game i guess?

[Gegenklaus]

3 minutes ago, argenmik said:

 

so for fm you have to interpret this for your own squad. only way to achieve the more fluid version is to switch tactics during the game i guess?

Yeah, I have not been able to get a more fluid version going. I guess you can do it to an extend via PPMs. But instead I like to replicate the movement differently on each side. One where the winger tucks in, wingback moves up - becomes winger - and CM supports and protects. The other side; Winger stays wide all the time, midfielder goes high up in the half, fullback tuck inside and support and protect.

[cocoadavid]

48 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Yeah, I have not been able to get a more fluid version going. I guess you can do it to an extend via PPMs. But instead I like to replicate the movement differently on each side. One where the winger tucks in, wingback moves up - becomes winger - and CM supports and protects. The other side; Winger stays wide all the time, midfielder goes high up in the half, fullback tuck inside and support and protect.

Yepp, totally agree, that's exactly the way I usually do it, too. 

However I figured out there is a way to create some fluid-ish movement to an extent from the fullback and the winger. With the below combinaton during the build-up play (and most of the time) the winger creates the width while the fullback supports and protects sitting narrower (though not as narrow as an IWB), but when the winger decides to cut inside or roams into the penalty area, the fullback overlaps and creates the width:
- WB on support duty with stay narrower PI
- Inverted Winger on attack duty with stay wider PI

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, cocoadavid said:

Yepp, totally agree, that's exactly the way I usually do it, too. 

However I figured out there is a way to create some fluid-ish movement to an extent from the fullback and the winger. With the below combinaton during the build-up play (and most of the time) the winger creates the width while the fullback supports and protects sitting narrower (though not as narrow as an IWB), but when the winger decides to cut inside or roams into the penalty area, the fullback overlaps and creates the width:
- WB on support duty with stay narrower PI
- Inverted Winger on attack duty with stay wider PI

Interesting - I might try that out for sometime to see the positioning.

How is your overall setup?

[VinceLombardi]

6 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

Yepp, totally agree, that's exactly the way I usually do it, too. 

However I figured out there is a way to create some fluid-ish movement to an extent from the fullback and the winger. With the below combinaton during the build-up play (and most of the time) the winger creates the width while the fullback supports and protects sitting narrower (though not as narrow as an IWB), but when the winger decides to cut inside or roams into the penalty area, the fullback overlaps and creates the width:
- WB on support duty with stay narrower PI
- Inverted Winger on attack duty with stay wider PI

I also play these two roles outside a lot and really enjoy the interplay, though I play with the IW on narrower and the WB on wider to keep them out of traffic when the IW makes his move. The IW on narrower still works the flank well in buildup, but after he makes the move he stays inside. Its not a big difference though, honestly. 

The use of "get further forward" on the WB will have him play a bit closer to the IW and will surge forward when the IW finally drifts outside. Its similar to WB(a), but it waits until the IW makes his move, later in the attack. And since the IW typically pulls the wide defender narrower as he moves inside, that gives the WB space to exploit on the flank.

Edited January 21, 2019 by VinceLombardi

[cocoadavid]

On 21/01/2019 at 16:47, Gegenklaus said:

Interesting - I might try that out for sometime to see the positioning.

How is your overall setup?

In the following link you can find the tactic I created that combines the IWa + WBs. Note: it wasn't created to represent Guardiola's  philosophy, I built it to suit AC Milan's squad, based on my principles.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by cocoadavid

[Gegenklaus]

7 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

In the following link you can find the tactic I created that combines the IWa + WBs. Note: it wasn't created to represent Guardiola's  philosophy, I built it to suit AC Milan's squad, based on my principles.

 

Interesting setup. Many routes to goal and if play is established in the attacking phase you sort of create the 2-3-5 shape in possession, I imagine? 

My setup is not that different from yours - which is, from the top:

CFs

WPLa - DLPs - MEZa - IWs 

DMd

WBa - CD - CD - IWBs

PI’s are: DLP - stay wider, so he mainly operates in the half space, sort of like an IWBs. WBa stays wider, IWs stays wider and gets further forward. I’m really pleased with the IW as it really stays wide, makes space for the Mez-a to operate in and in final third he usually has a lot of space to either charge into the box and deliver a cross/through ball. I would like the WPL to not be ball magnet, but the WPL is the only role during build that tucks in early enough during build up. 

My instructions are nearly the same, though a bit more aggressive when it comes to pressing and transitions. I switch between balanced and positive  mentalities. 

I’m a bit interested in your CM-a and the instructions you’ve given it. What is the reasoning behind the Roam-PI?

[kurupted]

About guardiola tactic, there is always a way to represent that 2-3-5 formation that they use when they have the ball. 2 CD's, 1 DLP-D, 2 MEZ-S, 2 Wingers-A and 1 DLF-S.

Nobody has questions about that, the only real problem and that is why we cant replicate 100% guardiola tactic, is the dynamics between some players, per example, DS has some kind of dynamic and movements with KDB that we can't simply replicate. The way that they look for space dragging the opposition we cant simply replicate.

[cocoadavid]

5 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Interesting setup. Many routes to goal and if play is established in the attacking phase you sort of create the 2-3-5 shape in possession, I imagine? 

My setup is not that different from yours - which is, from the top:

CFs

WPLa - DLPs - MEZa - IWs 

DMd

WBa - CD - CD - IWBs

PI’s are: DLP - stay wider, so he mainly operates in the half space, sort of like an IWBs. WBa stays wider, IWs stays wider and gets further forward. I’m really pleased with the IW as it really stays wide, makes space for the Mez-a to operate in and in final third he usually has a lot of space to either charge into the box and deliver a cross/through ball. I would like the WPL to not be ball magnet, but the WPL is the only role during build that tucks in early enough during build up. 

My instructions are nearly the same, though a bit more aggressive when it comes to pressing and transitions. I switch between balanced and positive  mentalities. 

I’m a bit interested in your CM-a and the instructions you’ve given it. What is the reasoning behind the Roam-PI?

I like your setup, it really creates a Guardiola-like player positioning. I think we have similar ideas, I use the the IW and the Wide Playmaker roles for the same reason as you do. 

About the Roam-PI for my CM-a: in my AC Milan setup I wanted my DLP-s to be the main player who really controls the tempo of the game, allow him to move into central areas and even allow him to move into the left half space to ask for the ball. Thus I wanted to allow my CM-a to get anywhere where space opens up in the AMLC/AMC/AMRC strata, freeing up space behind him for the DLP to move into.  So for example a scenario during a match that was created with this setup: the CM-a moved into the AMC strata, my DLP moved into the MCL strata, while my Wide Playmaker could be found somewhere between the AMCR/MCR strata. I overally wanted to create a more fluid movement. And last but not least, I had Kessié in the CM-a position who had great Off The Ball movement, Anticipation and Work Rate. I added the tight marking + tackle harder instructions because he is also a great ball winner, and his aggressive defensive style helped my team create some counter-attacking opportunities. But I really like the Mezzala role, too. 
 

[Gegenklaus]

16 minutes ago, cocoadavid said:

I like your setup, it really creates a Guardiola-like player positioning. I think we have similar ideas, I use the the IW and the Wide Playmaker roles for the same reason as you do. 

About the Roam-PI for my CM-a: in my AC Milan setup I wanted my DLP-s to be the main player who really controls the tempo of the game, allow him to move into central areas and even allow him to move into the left half space to ask for the ball. Thus I wanted to allow my CM-a to get anywhere where space opens up in the AMLC/AMC/AMRC strata, freeing up space behind him for the DLP to move into.  So for example a scenario during a match that was created with this setup: the CM-a moved into the AMC strata, my DLP moved into the MCL strata, while my Wide Playmaker could be found somewhere between the AMCR/MCR strata. I overally wanted to create a more fluid movement. And last but not least, I had Kessié in the CM-a position who had great Off The Ball movement, Anticipation and Work Rate. I added the tight marking + tackle harder instructions because he is also a great ball winner, and his aggressive defensive style helped my team create some counter-attacking opportunities. But I really like the Mezzala role, too. 
 

That's really great and interesting. You should make a whole post about your system and how all the roles interact with each other. Ever since I began using the WPL the attacking play got better - like instantly.

[Jorgen]

If I am correct, Pep was a fan of Cruijff's football philosophy and tactics. As I cannot view EPL matches currently, I have no idea in how far Pep's City is still using a characteristic Barça / Ajax style of play.

That 2-3-5 you are talking about; is that a 4-3-3 with the 2 wingbacks advancing to the DMC position and the midfielders advancing to the winger/striker position?

What kind of midfield triangle is Pep using? Pointing backwards? (Cruijff style with for example Nigel de Jong, Sneijder and VDV) Or pointing forwards (Louis van Gaal style, with Litmanen as AMC? A triangle pointing backwards seemed more defensive, but Cruijff always said that in a triangle pointing to the back, there are 2 players at the front of it.

[Gegenklaus]

59 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

If I am correct, Pep was a fan of Cruijff's football philosophy and tactics. As I cannot view EPL matches currently, I have no idea in how far Pep's City is still using a characteristic Barça / Ajax style of play.

That 2-3-5 you are talking about; is that a 4-3-3 with the 2 wingbacks advancing to the DMC position and the midfielders advancing to the winger/striker position?

What kind of midfield triangle is Pep using? Pointing backwards? (Cruijff style with for example Nigel de Jong, Sneijder and VDV) Or pointing forwards (Louis van Gaal style, with Litmanen as AMC? A triangle pointing backwards seemed more defensive, but Cruijff always said that in a triangle pointing to the back, there are 2 players at the front of it.

City is quite, quite fluid in their movement but the overall structure is kept. Certain players has freedom to move around a bit and others has to move according to that - that's my opinion anyway. It depends on the situation but, yes, with City you often see both fullbacks tuck inside into the number six position if both number 8's goes between the lines and the two wingers provide the width. The right side of the team, as someone has already written, is more fluid with the tandem of Walker, Sterling and de Bruyne. They shift around but the triangle, they make, is pretty consistent during build up. The midfield triangle he often uses is two quite creative and attacking midfielders. De Bruyne called him and Silva a kinda of "free eights" that moves really high up the pitch.

Fernandinho is the anchor from which the team turn around. He is balancing the whole structure of the team covering the central space that the eights leave behind, stops counter attacks, circulate the ball and start attacks. As always in Pep's teams he has one of the most important roles in the team.

Don't know if that answers anything.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Gegenklaus

[Sincefm00]

Hello, I tried to imitate the pyramid of Pep Guardiola (2.3.5), I looked more than he was in Bayern München.

I think it's impossible to recreate exactly his tactic so I just tried to imitate and recreate the most important principes of Pep's philosophy.

 

SORRY for my english ( I'm french)

[henkheikens]

1 hour ago, Sincefm00 said:

Hello, I tried to imitate the pyramid of Pep Guardiola (2.3.5), I looked more than he was in Bayern München.

I think it's impossible to recreate exactly his tactic so I just tried to imitate and recreate the most important principes of Pep's philosophy.

 

SORRY for my english ( I'm french)

/

interessting :) but do you use player instructions?

[Sincefm00]

il y a 30 minutes, henkheikens a dit :

interessting :) but do you use player instructions?

Yes, " take less risks" and "shot less" for all players.

And some instructions particulary 

[Jorgen]

2 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

City is quite, quite fluid in their movement but the overall structure is kept. Certain players has freedom to move around a bit and others has to move according to that - that's my opinion anyway. It depends on the situation but, yes, with City you often see both fullbacks tuck inside into the number six position if both number 8's goes between the lines and the two wingers provide the width. The right side of the team, as someone has already written, is more fluid with the tandem of Walker, Sterling and de Bruyne. They shift around but the triangle, they make, is pretty consistent during build up. The midfield triangle he often uses is two quite creative and attacking midfielders. De Bruyne called him and Silva a kinda of "free eights" that moves really high up the pitch.

Fernandinho is the anchor from which the team turn around. He is balancing the whole structure of the team covering the central space that the eights leave behind, stops counter attacks, circulate the ball and start attacks. As always in Pep's teams he has one of the most important roles in the team.

Don't know if that answers anything.

Yes it answers (some of) my questions :P

 

Do the WB really go to the DMC position, or only play in line with that position? If I understand you correctly Pep is using 1 six and 2 eights (Cruijff) instead of a real ten, like Litmanen was in the Van Gaal era.

Does the six advance on the pitch, or does he stay on his own position? Cruijff once wrote a bunch of columns about his ideal tactics in which the triangle "flipped" upwards. When playing with Nigel de Jong (six) and Sneijder + VDV (both on a similar eight/MC postiton next to eachother) one of them runs to ten, while De Jong advances to to empty eight spot.

 

A lot of FM iterations ago, you could drag all players over the pitch according to where you wanted them to be in relation to the position of the ball on the pitch and if the team had possession or not. (It was after that we had the b-arrows and f-arrows, etc. )

The drag-and-drop on the pitch tactics engine was my favorite. I could exactly specify where every player was in every situation. I think that was the last time I made a working tactic myself

 

As I love Dutch / Ajax / Barça tactics and "totaalvoetbal" (total football) in a 4-3-3 based concept, I really like the fluidity and team coherence of teams that work well together. I hope that with the transfer of Frenkie de Jong to Barcelona next summer, there will be another era of passing play and totaal football at Camp Nou. It is necessary to have a rock solid defense (a bit of Mourinho) or you need to be sure to score one more than your oppponents do ;). In mj opinion Michels and Cruijff gave us the most beautiful and astonishing football there has been. It is nice to see that so many managers  are using similar philosophies and variatons. That's what I like about Wenger's Arsenal with Bergkamp and Henry and about Klopp's Gegenpressing.

 

If someone here can make a working tactic that does not only looks like Cruijff / Pep, but also works like a charm, I would be very, very interested.

[Gegenklaus]

39 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

Yes it answers (some of) my questions :P

 

Do the WB really go to the DMC position, or only play in line with that position? If I understand you correctly Pep is using 1 six and 2 eights (Cruijff) instead of a real ten, like Litmanen was in the Van Gaal era.

Does the six advance on the pitch, or does he stay on his own position? Cruijff once wrote a bunch of columns about his ideal tactics in which the triangle "flipped" upwards. When playing with Nigel de Jong (six) and Sneijder + VDV (both on a similar eight/MC postiton next to eachother) one of them runs to ten, while De Jong advances to to empty eight spot.

No, sorry, the fullbacks tuck into the half space to be able to better support the midfield. But it does depend on what the front 5 are doing  

And yes, he is using two eights that in possession becomes sort of 2 number tens.  But he has occassionally deployed Silva as a number 10. He did it on Anfield against Liverpool, while Bernardo Silva - the other eight - stayed back a lot more. 

The six does support midfield and moves up to make better connections and to be able to cover. And Pep’s City is all about inverting the triangle, the 2-3-5 shape - you often see them get 5 attackers on line between the lines, according to the situation some either drop off to get a pass while the third man begins his run. It’s a machine - but with humans.

 

[kurupted]

Honestly, i was trying some dummy saves. I was playing with Man City, trying to replicate Guardiola system.

After that i went to see some highlights of some matches of Man City, and what i realized is, both DS and KDB play in the half-spaces, but they don't do ONLY that. I have an image to try to explain.

As you can see in the image, we have KDB holding the ball in the right wing and DS in that area too. The curious thing is: they play in the half-spaces, but they do roam a lot, they roam to offer passing options, and looking into FM options and roles we have, i come to belive that Mezzala DOES NOT replicate neither DS or KDB movements. If you watch a Mezzala play, you notice that they dont leave their area too often, sometimes they drift wide but they do enter the box (in attack duty), and i don't think that replicates 100% what that players do.

I was wondering, why not using a AP-A (going further forward, replicating DS) and an AP-S (KDB, or maybe BBM or RPM). I think that the BBM or the RPM does not occupy the half space as  they should, an RPM roams and roams but they do not stay in the half-space, so i was trying to use an AP-A and AP-S, what do you guys think ?

[Jorgen]

@Gegenklaus Thanks for your patience and explaining everything.  I'ts very much appreciated.

[Gegenklaus]

8 hours ago, Jorgen said:

@Gegenklaus Thanks for your patience and explaining everything.  I'ts very much appreciated.

If you want to read more about Guardiola’s City you should checkout spielverlagerung.com, TotalFootballanalysis.com and Tifo Football on youtube. They have great content about City’s way of playing. 

[Gegenklaus]

9 hours ago, kurupted said:

Honestly, i was trying some dummy saves. I was playing with Man City, trying to replicate Guardiola system.

After that i went to see some highlights of some matches of Man City, and what i realized is, both DS and KDB play in the half-spaces, but they don't do ONLY that. I have an image to try to explain.

As you can see in the image, we have KDB holding the ball in the right wing and DS in that area too. The curious thing is: they play in the half-spaces, but they do roam a lot, they roam to offer passing options, and looking into FM options and roles we have, i come to belive that Mezzala DOES NOT replicate neither DS or KDB movements. If you watch a Mezzala play, you notice that they dont leave their area too often, sometimes they drift wide but they do enter the box (in attack duty), and i don't think that replicates 100% what that players do.

I was wondering, why not using a AP-A (going further forward, replicating DS) and an AP-S (KDB, or maybe BBM or RPM). I think that the BBM or the RPM does not occupy the half space as  they should, an RPM roams and roams but they do not stay in the half-space, so i was trying to use an AP-A and AP-S, what do you guys think ?

Yes, they does a lot of different things depending on a lot of different factors: Opposition’s shape, the match, players available and so on. You can’t grasp it all in FM, but you can replicate some general movement and positions of players. I would maybe avoid having too many playmakers in midfield and instead focusing on getting some of the attacking patterns right. Narrow it down to what you like about City, would be my suggestion.

[kurupted]

I dont really get it that "avoid having too many playmakers in midfield", why ? Fernandinho is a playmaker, he recycles the ball, hes not so offensive as DS and KDB but he is a playmaker. DS and KDB are playmakers too, but they are "different" playmakers. Honestly, like i said before, the Mezzala role DOES NOT entirely replicate how they play, if you watch close in a full-match, the Mezzala almost never leaves his "half-space", the MCE (Mezzala) its very rare that he leaves that area to help the right wing in the pitch.

You need to remember something that you forgot: Guardiola philosophy its all about numbers and superiority, their players ARE NEVER in numerical inferiority, their players tend to move to create passing lans to his teammates, i dont think the Mezzala replicates that very well. Besides that, as far as i can see, the Mezzala (S and A) its rare that they drop deep to pick the ball or create a passing option (unless they have PPM).

Look at the image i sent before, look how KDB has the ball and his teammates come to him to create passing options, thats what we want, i think the AP comes into the half-space, but he doesnt do only that, he roams a lot more in my opinion that the Mezzala, and with that we create numerical advantage when someone as the ball

[Ivan787]

23 ore fa, Jorgen ha scritto:

If I am correct, Pep was a fan of Cruijff's football philosophy and tactics. As I cannot view EPL matches currently, I have no idea in how far Pep's City is still using a characteristic Barça / Ajax style of play.

That 2-3-5 you are talking about; is that a 4-3-3 with the 2 wingbacks advancing to the DMC position and the midfielders advancing to the winger/striker position?

What kind of midfield triangle is Pep using? Pointing backwards? (Cruijff style with for example Nigel de Jong, Sneijder and VDV) Or pointing forwards (Louis van Gaal style, with Litmanen as AMC? A triangle pointing backwards seemed more defensive, but Cruijff always said that in a triangle pointing to the back, there are 2 players at the front of it.

In my opinion Man City today is very different in the interpretation of play from Barcelona. The main triangles are definitely the ones composed of Wingback, 8's and wingers. But in Barcelona the position were more or less fixed, in Man City, as seen in the last match against Huddesfield, they can vary. In the last month the preferred configuration seems the one with Sane and Sterling in the wide positions, two 8's and wingback acting as IWB, in a true 6's role. But sometimes it happens that Sterling cuts inside in a free role and Walker moves up like a "true" wingback.

The same flexibility is seen in the central position of the pitch. Tha starting configuration is a 4-3-3 with one DM and two 8's, but KDB acts with more freedom in collecting the ball from deep, while D. Silva (or the player which plays in the centre-left position) is more offensive, running from deep position in penalty area. But in some cases, as for example against Liverpool or teams with a playmaker in front of defense, the lineup was similar to a real 4-2-3-1 with one of the two 8's that sit very deep and the other moving in AMC position.

Generally speaking it seems that the team was splitted in two parts, 5 people that attack and 5 people that support.

[Ivan787]

4 ore fa, kurupted ha scritto:

I dont really get it that "avoid having too many playmakers in midfield", why ? Fernandinho is a playmaker, he recycles the ball, hes not so offensive as DS and KDB but he is a playmaker.

I'm not sure about this. Or, apologize me, I agree with you in real terms, but you should remember that we are speak in FM terms. If you see the builp-up pattern that someone posts in this thread (page 3) you will see that Fernandinho is not included in the most completed "passing way". If you set him as DLP the ME will use him as main passing option whenever possible. In my opinion this could false the build up map.

[Gegenklaus]

8 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

In my opinion Man City today is very different in the interpretation of play from Barcelona. The main triangles are definitely the ones composed of Wingback, 8's and wingers. But in Barcelona the position were more or less fixed, in Man City, as seen in the last match against Huddesfield, they can vary. In the last month the preferred configuration seems the one with Sane and Sterling in the wide positions, two 8's and wingback acting as IWB, in a true 6's role. But sometimes it happens that Sterling cuts inside in a free role and Walker moves up like a "true" wingback.

The same flexibility is seen in the central position of the pitch. Tha starting configuration is a 4-3-3 with one DM and two 8's, but KDB acts with more freedom in collecting the ball from deep, while D. Silva (or the player which plays in the centre-left position) is more offensive, running from deep position in penalty area. But in some cases, as for example against Liverpool or teams with a playmaker in front of defense, the lineup was similar to a real 4-2-3-1 with one of the two 8's that sit very deep and the other moving in AMC position.

Generally speaking it seems that the team was splitted in two parts, 5 people that attack and 5 people that support.

Totally agree, and you wrote it so much better than me. The bolded part is extremely important if you ask me.

 

4 hours ago, kurupted said:

I dont really get it that "avoid having too many playmakers in midfield", why ? Fernandinho is a playmaker, he recycles the ball, hes not so offensive as DS and KDB but he is a playmaker. DS and KDB are playmakers too, but they are "different" playmakers. Honestly, like i said before, the Mezzala role DOES NOT entirely replicate how they play, if you watch close in a full-match, the Mezzala almost never leaves his "half-space", the MCE (Mezzala) its very rare that he leaves that area to help the right wing in the pitch.

You need to remember something that you forgot: Guardiola philosophy its all about numbers and superiority, their players ARE NEVER in numerical inferiority, their players tend to move to create passing lans to his teammates, i dont think the Mezzala replicates that very well. Besides that, as far as i can see, the Mezzala (S and A) its rare that they drop deep to pick the ball or create a passing option (unless they have PPM).

Look at the image i sent before, look how KDB has the ball and his teammates come to him to create passing options, thats what we want, i think the AP comes into the half-space, but he doesnt do only that, he roams a lot more in my opinion that the Mezzala, and with that we create numerical advantage when someone as the ball

I get what you are using, but the two number 8's movement and position is hard to replicate. So what I like to do is just replicate parts of their general movement. Like one being David Silva high up in the half space, between the lines, while de Bruyne is more of a deeper organizer, moving with more freedom then organize the rest of the team according to the job, you've assigned those two. It's hard to get everything squeezed into one FM tactic - or at least, I think it is - as City's attacking patterns, movement and build up varies a lot during games.

When I try to replicate the sort of style of Pep I usually avoid playmakers roles because a lot of the play will naturally go through them and the players are more inclined to leave their designated playing zone. A cornerstone in Guardiola's playing style is players are assigned certain zones they need to be in according to the ball and the opposition (like, stay in your positions), so the team gets spread out nicely and makes the space available to play as big as possible. Then they will look to lurk the opposition into one side of the pitch and then switch the play. Overloads and that kind of stuff, which I don't know a whole lot about to be honest. 

But you are absolutely right in your observations about City. You sometimes see de Bruyne/B. Silva and D. Silva close to each other, then really far from each other.

[Pep468]

On 23/01/2019 at 17:42, Sincefm00 said:

Hello, I tried to imitate the pyramid of Pep Guardiola (2.3.5), I looked more than he was in Bayern München.

I think it's impossible to recreate exactly his tactic so I just tried to imitate and recreate the most important principes of Pep's philosophy.

 

SORRY for my english ( I'm french)

Could you translate the player roles into English please?