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bar333

Help me create a good 4-1-4-1.

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So I'm playing with Dynamo Dresden in the second German division and while we're not doing badly at all, we're not exactly doing great either and we are really struggling going forward and scoring goals from open play.

This is my main tactic -

F84CCC27A55DC0BE855D638C331852C85BED3103

Initially I started with the Direct Counter Attack preset and tweaked it from there, trying to reach something that is between Direct and Fluid counter attack. I had a low block set up (Lower D-line + Lower LOE + Get Stuck In) along with slightly more direct passing but it really wasn't pretty. We got pegged back in most games and while I'm trying to set up a high tempo, non-possession based system, I found that having 30% possession is just too little to actually be able to do anything in the game.

Even with various tweaks I find that we get hammered too often in games and there are times where we create literally nothing, I'm talking no shots on goal in 45 mins before I make some changes at half time. We're the second best team in almost every game I play despite having a decent squad predicted to comfortably finish mid table.

I know that dropping tempo seems to be a very common advice here but that's not what I'm going for, most teams in this league are having a good go at me and I do think that with my players playing a more direct, high tempo style would be a better fit.

What am I getting wrong here? Am I even creating an overload on the left with this setup as I thought when I created it? Tips?

Edited by bar333

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Ill need to look and compare to mine next time I'm on the game. 

However I'd recommend taking the left side overlap off they'll do that automatically and isn't needed. 

The other thing I'd suggest is change the DM to a half back they'll drop between the centre backs when your in possession in dangerous areas really helped add defensive stability for me 

 

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I play the 4-1-4-1 with a Gegenpress. I get similar issues, though (like you) I keep the overlap instructions on, and most of the defaults are there otherwise, though I also use 'stay on feet' because the alternative gets me fined for not controlling my players.

What has sometimes worked for me is to go into training and add extra sessions for 'chance conversion' (under Technical). Doesn't stop me from having games where absolutely nothing happens despite complete dominance, but it has allowed for a few close shave 1-0 wins and then some 4-0/4-1 scorelines. So the solution might be to just keep hammering away at Chance Creation and Chance Conversion in Training and seeing if that helps?

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6 hours ago, womble248 said:

I play the 4-1-4-1 with a Gegenpress. I get similar issues, though (like you) I keep the overlap instructions on, and most of the defaults are there otherwise, though I also use 'stay on feet' because the alternative gets me fined for not controlling my players.

What has sometimes worked for me is to go into training and add extra sessions for 'chance conversion' (under Technical). Doesn't stop me from having games where absolutely nothing happens despite complete dominance, but it has allowed for a few close shave 1-0 wins and then some 4-0/4-1 scorelines. So the solution might be to just keep hammering away at Chance Creation and Chance Conversion in Training and seeing if that helps?

Id strongly suggest that Chance Creation and Conversion do have a small effect but we don't want to be training on that constantly as would weaken other areas of players games. 

image.thumb.png.b55a933d3a011ea0fa26af5b1da9841b.png

Ignoring that this says 4-2-3-1 which i saved and then modified to this, this is my current set up. I switched to it around late October from the said 4231 when struggling. I returned to winning the league first season with Rangers. I'll change mentality depending on who im playing and when but keep it on balanced as default outwith for training purposes. 

The wing backs actually overlap better like this than with the option on. Im unsure why, although with my squad all of my wing backs are fairly attacking minded by stats so could effect that - although im unsure. The APs APs honestly shouldn't work but for whatever reason it does. It was recommended to me so I tried it on the off chance - and i have used 2 play makers in midfield before with success so thought no harm in trying. 

The Half Back for me is essential to this team once we're in possession the centre backs split allowing the wing backs to go forward and the half back slots in really nicely between them. Once the opponents are locked in and have little counter options he'll drift slightly ahead of the pairing and be a deeper option of the attack. 

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I have great success with a very similar tactic.

The differences are that I don't use BBM but a AP-S. I find that it creates a bit less congestion on the edge of the opposition box when we attack and a bit more passing options.

I regroup in transitions and I don't have a specific approach when the ball is won.

I play higher defensive line with standard engagement line and offside trap on. (I think this is crucial, cos I tried different settings but it didn't work at all like wanted it to).

I start all the matches with cautious mentality, and sometimes switch to balanced.

Well, it is very patient, and not very attractive, but it is defensively sound, and it works. I won't brag about my achievements with the tactic but lets just say I overachieved my first 2 seasons.

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I'd swap the centre midfield pair around.  The MEZ is more attacking than a BBM and with a winger outside of him and a more patient FB-S (than WB-A) he should have more space and cover.  This should also give the IF-S more options, especially if he comes inside and tries to switch play to that attacking right flank.

You have a natural overlap with the IF-S and WB-A without the instruction.  The instruction will make the IF hold up the ball and the WB be even more attacking.

Your on balanced mentality, but with higher tempo and a lower engagement will sacrifice possession.  Just increasing your mentality will of increased tempo and risk taking, do you need more tempo on top? 

I get feeling you went counter but really want a fast style all the time and not just when counter attacks are on.  I'd look more to a mid press rather than low-ish press.  You'll have space to attack quickly but will not give opponents is much space/time to build there attacks.  Of course you'll have to decide if your players are capable of defending this way and if you can recruit in that direction.

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51 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd swap the centre midfield pair around.  The MEZ is more attacking than a BBM and with a winger outside of him and a more patient FB-S (than WB-A) he should have more space and cover.  This should also give the IF-S more options, especially if he comes inside and tries to switch play to that attacking right flank.

You have a natural overlap with the IF-S and WB-A without the instruction.  The instruction will make the IF hold up the ball and the WB be even more attacking.

Your on balanced mentality, but with higher tempo and a lower engagement will sacrifice possession.  Just increasing your mentality will of increased tempo and risk taking, do you need more tempo on top? 

I get feeling you went counter but really want a fast style all the time and not just when counter attacks are on.  I'd look more to a mid press rather than low-ish press.  You'll have space to attack quickly but will not give opponents is much space/time to build there attacks.  Of course you'll have to decide if your players are capable of defending this way and if you can recruit in that direction.

Yeah, upon thinking about it I actually figured the midfield out myself and already swapped the MEZ to the right as looking at average positions and some highlights I did find him and the IF stepping on each other's toes a bit.

And I guess you're right re: the style I want. I never really considered increasing mentality as I'm honestly very wary of it at this point and I prefer to always start on Balanced and tweak the individual TI's to do exactly what I want. 

Regarding the press, I'll give it a shot and push my LOE to standard. I wonder if I can get away with slightly higher even, without it limiting space too much for the kind of football I want to see. Ironically my attackers and especially my 2 strikers are more hard working than my midfielders or defenders which is why I've also changed the DLF-A to PF-A, which looks a tiny bit better so far and their pressing led to some chances here and there.

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23 hours ago, bar333 said:

So I'm playing with Dynamo Dresden in the second German division and while we're not doing badly at all, we're not exactly doing great either and we are really struggling going forward and scoring goals from open play.

This is my main tactic -

F84CCC27A55DC0BE855D638C331852C85BED3103

Initially I started with the Direct Counter Attack preset and tweaked it from there, trying to reach something that is between Direct and Fluid counter attack. I had a low block set up (Lower D-line + Lower LOE + Get Stuck In) along with slightly more direct passing but it really wasn't pretty. We got pegged back in most games and while I'm trying to set up a high tempo, non-possession based system, I found that having 30% possession is just too little to actually be able to do anything in the game.

Even with various tweaks I find that we get hammered too often in games and there are times where we create literally nothing, I'm talking no shots on goal in 45 mins before I make some changes at half time. We're the second best team in almost every game I play despite having a decent squad predicted to comfortably finish mid table.

I know that dropping tempo seems to be a very common advice here but that's not what I'm going for, most teams in this league are having a good go at me and I do think that with my players playing a more direct, high tempo style would be a better fit.

What am I getting wrong here? Am I even creating an overload on the left with this setup as I thought when I created it? Tips?

Before offering any concrete advice, I first need to know how exactly you want to play. Do you want to play pure counter-attacking football, meaning you deliberately give possession away, defend tightly and then suddenly hit them on the break, or you just want to use the counter-attack as a tactical tool while generally playing a more possession-oriented style?

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Just in case anyone is interested + asking for a bit more advice -

I've fine tuned things and in my second season ended up with this -

CD7BD95CB198FF5946E75C0134622A7034F3F61C

And it's going pretty well. We're scoring goals, solid at the back and look good value for promotion after I narrowly missed out in my first season finishing 4th. Changing my striker's role from DLF-A or PF-A to CF-A seems to have made a massive difference, my first choice striker Zirkzee had like 2 goals in 6 games then I made that change and 3 games later he's on 7, banging all kinds of goals in.

What I'm trying to do - create an overload on the right, then (hopefully) with Pass Into Space TI actually exploit the runs made by my very attacking left wide players into the space I create through the overload. I've added Play out of Defence because my strikers aren't very quick and I don't really want my defenders trying to find them directly, I do want direct passing but only when the space is there, mostly from the right flank to the left with the Mezzala preferably making those passes. 

So the advice request - from what I'm seeing in the ME I am at least doing the overload part right but I think where I get it wrong is exploiting the space. I often see the 3 players on my right in close proximity forming almost a passing triangle and drawing a lot of players to them. The issue I have is I can't seem to get the IF involved or doing much of anything. Even when space opens up on the left it's always the WB who exploits it. It's supposed to be a goalscoring role but just like Salah in my Liverpool save I can't pull it off. I barely see the IF involved and getting any real chances, in fact looking at the analysis tools in my last 5 games it even tells me how little we're doing going forward on the left. I know the ME has serious issues and I've complained about them plenty but on my end is there anything I'm missing here that I can do to improve it? I've tried telling him to sit narrower but it didn't really do much.

Edited by bar333

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Inside Forward seems to be a very one tone role that just cuts in near the half space and lets go a shot from distance. Raumdeuter seems to exploit the space better at least as far as I've seen and maybe what you're aiming for? Someone who hangs wide with the opposing wing back and then cuts in to the space between the centre back and wing back for a through ball or ball over the top?

21 hours ago, bar333 said:

Just in case anyone is interested + asking for a bit more advice -

I've fine tuned things and in my second season ended up with this -

CD7BD95CB198FF5946E75C0134622A7034F3F61C

And it's going pretty well. We're scoring goals, solid at the back and look good value for promotion after I narrowly missed out in my first season finishing 4th. Changing my striker's role from DLF-A or PF-A to CF-A seems to have made a massive difference, my first choice striker Zirkzee had like 2 goals in 6 games then I made that change and 3 games later he's on 7, banging all kinds of goals in.

What I'm trying to do - create an overload on the right, then (hopefully) with Pass Into Space TI actually exploit the runs made by my very attacking left wide players into the space I create through the overload. I've added Play out of Defence because my strikers aren't very quick and I don't really want my defenders trying to find them directly, I do want direct passing but only when the space is there, mostly from the right flank to the left with the Mezzala preferably making those passes. 

So the advice request - from what I'm seeing in the ME I am at least doing the overload part right but I think where I get it wrong is exploiting the space. I often see the 3 players on my right in close proximity forming almost a passing triangle and drawing a lot of players to them. The issue I have is I can't seem to get the IF involved or doing much of anything. Even when space opens up on the left it's always the WB who exploits it. It's supposed to be a goalscoring role but just like Salah in my Liverpool save I can't pull it off. I barely see the IF involved and getting any real chances, in fact looking at the analysis tools in my last 5 games it even tells me how little we're doing going forward on the left. I know the ME has serious issues and I've complained about them plenty but on my end is there anything I'm missing here that I can do to improve it? I've tried telling him to sit narrower but it didn't really do much.

 

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22 hours ago, bar333 said:

Just in case anyone is interested + asking for a bit more advice -

I've fine tuned things and in my second season ended up with this -

CD7BD95CB198FF5946E75C0134622A7034F3F61C

And it's going pretty well. We're scoring goals, solid at the back and look good value for promotion after I narrowly missed out in my first season finishing 4th. Changing my striker's role from DLF-A or PF-A to CF-A seems to have made a massive difference, my first choice striker Zirkzee had like 2 goals in 6 games then I made that change and 3 games later he's on 7, banging all kinds of goals in.

What I'm trying to do - create an overload on the right, then (hopefully) with Pass Into Space TI actually exploit the runs made by my very attacking left wide players into the space I create through the overload. I've added Play out of Defence because my strikers aren't very quick and I don't really want my defenders trying to find them directly, I do want direct passing but only when the space is there, mostly from the right flank to the left with the Mezzala preferably making those passes. 

So the advice request - from what I'm seeing in the ME I am at least doing the overload part right but I think where I get it wrong is exploiting the space. I often see the 3 players on my right in close proximity forming almost a passing triangle and drawing a lot of players to them. The issue I have is I can't seem to get the IF involved or doing much of anything. Even when space opens up on the left it's always the WB who exploits it. It's supposed to be a goalscoring role but just like Salah in my Liverpool save I can't pull it off. I barely see the IF involved and getting any real chances, in fact looking at the analysis tools in my last 5 games it even tells me how little we're doing going forward on the left. I know the ME has serious issues and I've complained about them plenty but on my end is there anything I'm missing here that I can do to improve it? I've tried telling him to sit narrower but it didn't really do much.

This is where the player used can be important, by the sounds of it your looking for the MCR to "Switch Play To Opposite Flank".  I'd also consider changing him from a MEZ so he isn't making attacking runs as often and instead should be a bit deeper and in better position to pass.

I think the Anchorman might slow play and be a bit too safe, especially if there is a switch of play from the right to left side.  Especially with a MEZ pushing higher, i'd either pull the MEZ back a bit or try and recruit a DLP-S type DM to sit in the hole behind them to switch the play.

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20 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

This is where the player used can be important, by the sounds of it your looking for the MCR to "Switch Play To Opposite Flank".  I'd also consider changing him from a MEZ so he isn't making attacking runs as often and instead should be a bit deeper and in better position to pass.

I think the Anchorman might slow play and be a bit too safe, especially if there is a switch of play from the right to left side.  Especially with a MEZ pushing higher, i'd either pull the MEZ back a bit or try and recruit a DLP-S type DM to sit in the hole behind them to switch the play.

I thought about that and already trained my first choice MEZ and gave him that PPM. Anchorman I find both suits my really limited players in that position and also adds some defensive solidity.

I can maybe swap the MEZ to an AP-S but the question is whether I'd still create the necessary overload on the right without him occupying that half space and being close to the winger?

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You might want to try more direct passing on the right flank players so they look further away more often, apart from that you only have so many players to work with ;) if want to change where the ball goes something has to change.

If the MEZ isn't there the ST might move to that side and he can still be in that area, he just won't be as focused on it.  As it is your CM pair are mainly two physical runners with no creator with that Anchorman so I think one of those CM roles need to do multiple jobs, maybe a RPM?  Could even be a AP-A or pretty much any role with a support duty?  I'm not sure what i'd try first, probably just change it towards end of games i'm in control of and see how it affects the play.

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

You might want to try more direct passing on the right flank players so they look further away more often, apart from that you only have so many players to work with ;) if want to change where the ball goes something has to change.

If the MEZ isn't there the ST might move to that side and he can still be in that area, he just won't be as focused on it.  As it is your CM pair are mainly two physical runners with no creator with that Anchorman so I think one of those CM roles need to do multiple jobs, maybe a RPM?  Could even be a AP-A or pretty much any role with a support duty?  I'm not sure what i'd try first, probably just change it towards end of games i'm in control of and see how it affects the play.

Makes a lot of sense actually that I'd want a deeper creator type to switch the play rather than a Mezzala. I'm thinking some sort of AP and I'll give it a shot since my players for that position can definitely play that role, just not really sure on the duty as I've never really understood the difference between an AP-S and an AP-A since the AP-A still doesn't have the forward runs PI. Is it just that he'll dribble more with the ball? 

Also wondering on any PI's for him. Will giving him a Stay Wider PI make him a more readily available passing option for the winger and fullback so I still create the overload?

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That's the main two differences, doesn't make forward runs often like most other attack duties and dribbles more often.  His mentality will be higher to, so should be more riskier with his actions in general yet is still focused on distributing rather than off ball runs.

I would try the basic role first, get an idea what it does in your system with your player then consider if you need to add PIs.  More direct passing and/or Stay Wider seem viable.

I think the overload is more the two wide players roles+duties.  The rest of the team and opposition will move to that side when the ball is on that flank.  If the MCR is too wide and high he'll likely run wide with it (esp if has dribble more) rather than being in position to switch play from being a bit deeper and inside. You might lose some attacking width but gain more with another threat. All theory however many hours ive played over years, you'll need to watch what happens on the pitch.

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So after my success with Dresden I moved clubs to Stuttgart and took the opportunity to try and tweak the midfield roles to be a bit more like what I want and ended up with this -

FCA4BBABB13C19AD6BE203299DBC909F2466554D

And we're... again, okay, but not really scoring or creating enough chances for my liking. In my first season we finished 5th (predicted to finish 8th), narrowly missing out on a CL spot. 

Basically all I did TI wise was remove counter-press because I felt like we aren't really pressing high up the pitch anyway and I don't necessarily want to counter press since I'm not too concerned with possession, if anything allowing the opposition to try and build an attack and get out of their defensive shape might leave more space open when we do win the ball back, and quick and incisive is what I'm aiming for. Role wise I've changed the Anchorman to a DLP-D although I still go with Anchorman in some situations. I gave the DLP a more direct passing PI so he can switch the play but I'm not really seeing that happening. @summatsupeer sorry to bother you, thoughts?

Also I'm a bit phobic about this midfield for some reason, feels like without an Anchorman there isn't really any "defend-first" midfielder in there. I wonder if switching the BBM to a BWM-S would actually work way better for this set up? He'll be more defence oriented and less adventurous than a BBM and also more focused on winning the ball back which opens up more counter opportunities that I want to see? Ascasibar isn't really a BBM anyway but he would be one hell of a BWM.

Again though I'm seeing long stretches of the game where we create nothing, games where we finish with 1 or 2 shots on target are not uncommon. Striker isn't really banging them in either but I'll chalk it down to Cutrone having the woeful "Tries to Beat Offside Trap" trait that I've twice tried and twice failed to untrain. I've brought my old striker from Dresden and will monitor.

EDIT: Old striker from Dresden is possibly the biggest flop I've ever had in FM so far. Ranging from 6.3 to 6.4 week in, week out, no goals, no assists, no involvement in play, plays around 10 passes per 90 mins - won't blame him, that's the life of a lone striker in FM19 and is to be expected. Tactic out on the pitch basically looks like it's busted, does virtually nothing going forward, really have no idea what is so awfully wrong with it. Looking at the heatmaps in every single game we have basically no presence in the final third, ever. We seem to be eternally knocking the ball around on the left flank and in our third of the pitch for 90 mins. Very solid and tight defensively but with the current ME that's not worth very much at all as the goal from the set piece is always around the corner resulting in multiple copy paste 1-0 defeats every season if you can't score for love nor money.

 

Edited by bar333

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18 hours ago, bar333 said:

Basically all I did TI wise was remove counter-press because I felt like we aren't really pressing high up the pitch anyway and I don't necessarily want to counter press since I'm not too concerned with possession, if anything allowing the opposition to try and build an attack and get out of their defensive shape might leave more space open when we do win the ball back, and quick and incisive is what I'm aiming for. Role wise I've changed the Anchorman to a DLP-D although I still go with Anchorman in some situations. I gave the DLP a more direct passing PI so he can switch the play but I'm not really seeing that happening. @summatsupeer sorry to bother you, thoughts?

Does he has that trait? Are wide players passing back to him or instead crossing or picking another player to pass to?  If he does get it and doesn't switch play, what does he do instead?

18 hours ago, bar333 said:

 Also I'm a bit phobic about this midfield for some reason, feels like without an Anchorman there isn't really any "defend-first" midfielder in there. I wonder if switching the BBM to a BWM-S would actually work way better for this set up? He'll be more defence oriented and less adventurous than a BBM and also more focused on winning the ball back which opens up more counter opportunities that I want to see? Ascasibar isn't really a BBM anyway but he would be one hell of a BWM.

A DLP-D will pretty much always be behind the ball when you have it, his defensive job is pretty much the same as a A-D.  If your using the same player you shouldn't see much difference defensively, its just he's expected to be better on the ball than a A-D when your in possession.

I think the main issue with the MCL job is in the final third I wouldn't be surprised if you had a front 4 at times leaving that BBM/BWM using the #10 area with the MEZ moving higher and into channel.  Who out of the BWM/BBM and DLP is the best creator and do they get the ball in positions they have options to create for?  By the sounds if it I think you might prefer a double pivot type setup with the DLP moving to central midfield as a DLP-S and the "muscle" sitting behind.

18 hours ago, bar333 said:

Again though I'm seeing long stretches of the game where we create nothing, games where we finish with 1 or 2 shots on target are not uncommon. Striker isn't really banging them in either but I'll chalk it down to Cutrone having the woeful "Tries to Beat Offside Trap" trait that I've twice tried and twice failed to untrain. I've brought my old striker from Dresden and will monitor.

EDIT: Old striker from Dresden is possibly the biggest flop I've ever had in FM so far. Ranging from 6.3 to 6.4 week in, week out, no goals, no assists, no involvement in play, plays around 10 passes per 90 mins - won't blame him, that's the life of a lone striker in FM19 and is to be expected. Tactic out on the pitch basically looks like it's busted, does virtually nothing going forward, really have no idea what is so awfully wrong with it. Looking at the heatmaps in every single game we have basically no presence in the final third, ever. We seem to be eternally knocking the ball around on the left flank and in our third of the pitch for 90 mins. Very solid and tight defensively but with the current ME that's not worth very much at all as the goal from the set piece is always around the corner resulting in multiple copy paste 1-0 defeats every season if you can't score for love nor money.

 

I think what i've put above might explain some of what your seeing.  With Pass Into Space there's a focus of attacking behind opponents which typical means early quick attacks + runs.  IF-A + CF-A are the only two roles+duties in the team who do risky passes often by default, but by adding that team instruction other players who aren't good at passing might be wasting the ball.  Maybe dropping that TI plus my suggestion of moving the DLP and changing duty so he is the main creator could increase the effectiveness.

Looking at your player ratings, they're performing well apart from the forward.  Are you asking to much from him?  Would a simpler role with more specific instructions make his decision on what to do easier?  I'd get the sitter + creator sorted since you seem to have a clear idea what you expect from them, only then focus on the forward and what he's doing with the IF, MEZ and W.  Is anyone using the space behind the ST with the IF-A behind high+wide, the W-S being wide and the MEZ wanting to move wide?  If no one in your midfield looks to use that #10 area, maybe the ST should before then making a run from his deeper area?

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@summatsupeer Llorente as the DLP does have the 'Switch Ball to Other Flank' trait, as well as 'Tries Long Range Passes'. What he does is seemingly pass it short and simple most of the time. His passing maps kind of support that, I've looked at them and I see on average maybe one pass per game of the type that I'd want to see where he gets the ball slightly to the right of the pitch and switches the play out left.

Now the guy isn't Xabi Alonso as I wanted someone who is defensively solid, but he does have good passing, decisions, vision, anticipation etc, 14-15 in all IIRC. 


Do you mean switching the DLP-D and the BBM so I would have a DLP-S in the MCL slot and something like an Anchorman\DM-D sitting behind (I still have no idea what the difference is, I suppose DM-D is just a more generic role that can be tailored to preferences a lot more?)? I think I had considered it and maybe even played a game or two like that last season but the question is wouldn't I want the DLP-S on the MCR slot so he can switch the play? But then if I do that then my more attacking midfielder will be on the left, potentially making that flank very vulnerable and lacking cover.

I wonder if DLP-S in the DM strata and something like a BWM-D in CM would improve things without sacrificing too much defensively as the BWM-D will also hold position and with a more balanced individual mentality the DLP-S might attempt to switch play more as those passes I would imagine are considered high risk passes. Either that or maybe give him a 'Take More Risks'  PI...

With the striker I'm not really sure I want him to drop too deep and force him to try and create because of the players I have for the role. CF-A isn't my usual pick for this formation either but I selected CF-A because I've had had very poor results with other roles in my first season, unfortunately it's not like a DLF actually functions like a DLF should in this ME, it's a widely known issue even by SI. Maybe going with a generic CM-A instead of MEZ-A will provide more support for the striker as the CM will stay more central?

So maybe -

               CF-A

IF-A                         W-S

       BWM-S   CM-A

              DLP-D

Might look better?

Or

               CF-A

IF-A                         W-S

       BWM-D   CM-A

              DLP-S

I'll give it a shot, the issue for me is I know what I want but I really don't know what to look for during the game and analyze my tactic within the ME. It's why I look for validation from people more knowledgeable than me that my ideas at least look good on paper :P

And thank you again for being so helpful! I think this thread really helped me think about things for myself and understanding tactics better.

 

Edited by bar333

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1 hour ago, bar333 said:

@summatsupeer Llorente as the DLP does have the 'Switch Ball to Other Flank' trait, as well as 'Tries Long Range Passes'. What he does is seemingly pass it short and simple most of the time. His passing maps kind of support that, I've looked at them and I see on average maybe one pass per game of the type that I'd want to see where he gets the ball slightly to the right of the pitch and switches the play out left.

Now the guy isn't Xabi Alonso as I wanted someone who is defensively solid, but he does have good passing, decisions, vision, anticipation etc, 14-15 in all IIRC. 

Interesting, its hard to say without seeing the actual situations, were they in the final third so the W-S and IF-A had tucked inside more leaving only the WB-S and FB-S to provide width?

Got game open now and he's okay physicals not great so won't cover space well and doesn't fit a more advanced role, very much a sit and keep things ticking over player.

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

Do you mean switching the DLP-D and the BBM so I would have a DLP-S in the MCL slot and something like an Anchorman\DM-D sitting behind (I still have no idea what the difference is, I suppose DM-D is just a more generic role that can be tailored to preferences a lot more?)? I think I had considered it and maybe even played a game or two like that last season but the question is wouldn't I want the DLP-S on the MCR slot so he can switch the play? But then if I do that then my more attacking midfielder will be on the left, potentially making that flank very vulnerable and lacking cover.

Anchorman is simple static role who's only just is to shield the DCs.  I typically think of him as a short smart centre back.  Doesn't need to pass or run around a lot, just mark + intercept + tackle.  DM-D is expected to be a bit better with the ball but nothing amazing and also more mobile to close down a little more.

Yeah DLP-S into MCL with a simple defensive player in DM (DM-D / A-D / BWM-D). 

Regarding side, yeah because he's a playmaker he might make transitions happen more on his side rather than the right side.  But if transitions still go down the right with the supportive winger, the DLP-S should move central to make himself available with the MCR pushing higher inside of the winger.  Depends on the players available of course, ideally that MCL would be a good physical all round player, i don't think Llorente should be used there now i've seen him.

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

I wonder if DLP-S in the DM strata and something like a BWM-D in CM would improve things without sacrificing too much defensively as the BWM-D will also hold position and with a more balanced individual mentality the DLP-S might attempt to switch play more as those passes I would imagine are considered high risk passes. Either that or maybe give him a 'Take More Risks'  PI...

Consider how having a defend duty in MC will affect the transitions as he will sit and hold whilst the IF-A wants to push up.  It might take away from your quick attacks but safely transition the ball more often if your setup to and have players to break teams down in final third.

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

With the striker I'm not really sure I want him to drop too deep and force him to try and create because of the players I have for the role. CF-A isn't my usual pick for this formation either but I selected CF-A because I've had had very poor results with other roles in my first season, unfortunately it's not like a DLF actually functions like a DLF should in this ME, it's a widely known issue even by SI. Maybe going with a generic CM-A instead of MEZ-A will provide more support for the striker as the CM will stay more central?

A support forward doesn't have to create, TM-S / PF-S will drop and link without trying to dribble or play through balls often.

I think in 4141 DM Wide its harder to make a lone attack forward work, he's pushing up to create space behind him but with no AM there's no one there early on until the CM push up.  Then once they've pushed up your typically into the final third so now the ST has no space to run into without more patient probing to pull defender out of position.  Because you have no AM and aren't trying to play more patient thats why I think a support duty will do better, though if he has Tries To Beat Offside Trap that will make him play more like an attack duty.

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

So maybe -

               CF-A

IF-A                         W-S

       BWM-S   CM-A

              DLP-D

Might look better?

Looked like your players weren't doing bad so don't want to ruin it, i'd do as few changes as possible so can see the effect they have and if its what is expected and an improvement.  Maybe change the MCL and then try and spot the effect.

If it does what you expect then i'd focus on the ST and what he's giving the team being on attack duty and who is using that space behind him and when.  Then decide who could add more to the system by getting them into that area, maybe the MEZ-A to CM-A will do it, maybe having the ST drop into it himself will add more? Depends on the players and how they combine and not just the roles + duties.

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

Or

               CF-A

IF-A                         W-S

       BWM-D   CM-A

              DLP-S

 

I don't like this because of how vertical your other roles are, CF-A, IF-A, W-S and CM-A all looking to make forward runs or run with the ball.  But the BWM-D will just sit which could make it hard to transition quickly, which is what such a vertical setup will need to do.

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

I'll give it a shot, the issue for me is I know what I want but I really don't know what to look for during the game and analyze my tactic within the ME. It's why I look for validation from people more knowledgeable than me that my ideas at least look good on paper :P

And thank you again for being so helpful! I think this thread really helped me think about things for myself and understanding tactics better.

No problem, the only problem is i'm surmising from what your telling me.  Best tip I can give is watch as much of the matches as you can until you feel you can't get more from the tactic and that group of player.  I typically start matches on Comprehensive (or full) then once I get a feel for the game reduce the highlights.  Pause the match when something happens you don't like, what other options did that player have?  Did he do what the role, duty and team instructions tell him to do?  Did his attributes limit his ability to do what you prefer or traits made him go against your instructions?

Your players looked to be performing well so don't go mad and ruin it.  Maybe think more about how you can upgrade the squad to fit your system and improve it or give you more options in the future.

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I will try PF-S, the issue I always had with the role is that it didn't feel right when you're not pressing high as a team. But this was always just intuition. My strikers have very good work rate but not a lot of creativity so perhaps this is more fitting than CF. In the 2 games I've played so far the striker certainly seems more involved at least and doesn't produce complete stinkers. 

I think I've settled on a midfield of BWM-D in DM, DLP-S in MCL and MEZ-A in MCR. I'm seeing that despite the DLP being on the left of midfield he does indeed find himself on the right quite often due to the overload attracting players there. 

Hopefully I'll be able to take it from here as I feel I understand the tactic much better now. I've dropped Pass Into Space and instead opted for Higher Tempo to help with quick transitions, will see how it works out. 

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Alright, I know, I keep bumping this thread. But something happened that kind of forced me to go back to the drawing board a bit and while there isn't any problem ATM, I just landed on 2 different combinations of roles + duties which I like but I'm not sure on.

So basically Spurs in made a bid for Brekalo my star IF-A and I couldn't keep him, but it was good money. Since I wasn't happy with our attacking play (7th most goals scored in the league? Nah. Can't get Stuttgart into the top 3 and CL with that even if we do have the best defence in the league) I thought I'd take the chance to bring in a different type of player and change the system a bit. So I thought about what @summatsupeer said about using the #10 area and the space created by an attack duty striker and since I want an attack duty striker and can't really find a solution to give him more support from midfield I figured I'd take this opportunity to make some changes with the IF-A turning into an AP-something, more of a creator who will bring the ball inside rather than run vertically with it and link up with the striker better.

So now I'm kind of torn between this -

D3D4A1A26349377E6DE86A0EF8EC02C4AA750900

And this -

9D71709ACDDB0C1E5EA74E5CB487271FF45ED448

The AP I got can do both duties, he's not the fastest but otherwise is pretty much the complete AP.

The first system is like... idk. I'm still getting an overload on the right but without the IF-A on the left is there anyone to exploit the space and switch play to? Also I feel like there would now be a lack of forward runs being made as no one really other than the striker will be making them. I wanted something from midfield but felt that a Mezzala would step on the AP's toes, eventually just defaulted to BBM. Also two playmakers... not usually a fan of that.

The second system seems more balanced but I'm wondering if an AP-S being deeper will provide adequate support to the striker. From a short analysis of heatmap in one game they weren't as close as I'd like. With the winger on attack and Mezzala the right flank becomes the more attacking one and the AP should have a good time switching play there. 

Any thoughts? I think both are solid but I'm wondering if there's any flaws I'm missing and which would be preferable considering the fact I have the players to easily do either. I realize I keep resurrecting this thread, I know. 

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I think the second looks better of those 2 setups. The first I think has too many patient roles deep for an AP-A to have options.  I've just said this in another topic but feel its relevant here; You don't have to use an Attack + Support duty the same flank, you can use Support + Support or Attack + Attack if it fits what your doing. 

If you have an AP-A driving forward with the ball and taking risks with the ball, i'd want to give him options which requires runners getting forward from deep early, especially as your playing a higher tempo.  I'd consider putting the MEZ-S (or CM-A) and FB-A into that first setup for a more vertical quicker style, maybe Positive mentality...  Could also be interesting to see if a PF-S could lay it off to the AP and the AMR or runner from CM could make a early run in behind.

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Thanks for the advice guys. I went with the second system (while saving the first as one of my three tactics and keeping it on standby) but replaced the DLP-S with a MEZ-S, this is exactly the kind of pretty obvious stuff that I don't see myself for some reason. So far in his first 4-5 games the AP on Attack duty has been absolutely tearing it up so I'm reluctant to change it, and to be honest I've been seeing much better attacking play than with my previous system. What I think I will try to do though is replace the MEZ-S with a CM-At, as the role just doesn't really seem to do much for me there. My main player for it is Zaniolo who cost me a pretty penny and has just never really delivered as a MEZ. He's an absolute unit with almost Target Man-esque strength, jumping reach etc + great off the ball movement, I think I'd really prefer him in the box more often.

Am I correct in thinking the CM-A will be making earlier runs and getting in behind the defence more due to it's attacking mentality, which might allow the AP to set him up, and also get in the box more? I considered a MEZ-A but I'm not sure I want some of it's hardcoded behaviors like Take More Risks etc.

Edited by bar333

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1 hour ago, bar333 said:

Thanks for the advice guys. I went with the second system (while saving the first as one of my three tactics and keeping it on standby) but replaced the DLP-S with a MEZ-S, this is exactly the kind of pretty obvious stuff that I don't see myself for some reason. So far in his first 4-5 games the AP on Attack duty has been absolutely tearing it up so I'm reluctant to change it, and to be honest I've been seeing much better attacking play than with my previous system. What I think I will try to do though is replace the MEZ-S with a CM-At, as the role just doesn't really seem to do much for me there. My main player for it is Zaniolo who cost me a pretty penny and has just never really delivered as a MEZ. He's an absolute unit with almost Target Man-esque strength, jumping reach etc + great off the ball movement, I think I'd really prefer him in the box more often.

Am I correct in thinking the CM-A will be making earlier runs and getting in behind the defence more due to it's attacking mentality, which might allow the AP to set him up, and also get in the box more? I considered a MEZ-A but I'm not sure I want some of it's hardcoded behaviors like Take More Risks etc.

You seem to have made an error as the second system has the AP on support, not attack. 

And yes, the CM(A) will attack the box very effectively and will likely suit your tactic more as you have a winger so you don't really need a mezzala who will drift wide (although that can probably still work). 

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3 hours ago, bar333 said:

Am I correct in thinking the CM-A will be making earlier runs and getting in behind the defence more due to it's attacking mentality, which might allow the AP to set him up, and also get in the box more? I considered a MEZ-A but I'm not sure I want some of it's hardcoded behaviors like Take More Risks etc.

He will still be a CM when defending and transitioning so I wouldn't expect him to make runs behind opponents defensive line early unless its a counter attack.  Once transitioning into attack phase I'd then expect him to start bombing forward.

It also depends what your forward is doing, if he's pushing opponents defensive line deeper by playing on the shoulder as an attack duty himself that makes it hard for a CM-A to make runs past him.

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@NabsKebabsYou're right, I meant the first!

I will have both tactics loaded and choose according to the situation. I feel like the one with the W-A will be more vertical and might work well when the opposition is giving me space behind the defence, I will keep the MCR as a MEZ-S in that system since it makes more sense with a W-A than a W-S, I think. Could offer him support and supply him. I'll also switch the LB to a WB-A or WB-S as well as I'm telling my AP-S to sit narrower which sees him show up smack in the middle of the pitch at times, which I like and I feel is better for the player since he's left footed but would require the LB to provide width with a higher starting position. On that note I'll say my AP since coming in has been absolutely killing it, racking up assists for fun and is already my highest rated player.

We'll see what Zaniolo does, will monitor him in both roles. He has the 'Gets into Opposition Area' trait anyway so in theory should look to do what I want without much input from me. 

The striker is the only real concern I have left now, still prone to pulling total stinkers it feels. I'd probably give him a support duty in a heartbeat if I had the right player but I'm just not convinced that I do. I don't want him playing like a Poacher or AF obviously, and as a PF I don't think he should, at least judging by his position on the tactics screen it seems like a deeper role similar to a DLF-A. Doesn't have any traits other than 'Places Shots' so shouldn't be doing anything that isn't dictated by the role (unlike Cutrone with his offside trap beating nonsense, will be sold first thing in the summer). Not sure what can really be done anyway since striker movement in general is a very well documented and known issue with the ME.

Once again thanks to everyone contributing, this thread has been incredibly helpful to me.

Edited by bar333

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