The Italian Job! Italian league thread is here!

[RandomGuy.]

Had a winless run of five games and got called to a board meeting, thankfully a run of five straight wins satisfied the board. Sitting sixth and should be able to get Europa League at worst, sitting three points of both Milan sides who are 3rd/4th.

Planning for next season has begun. Pereira on a free transfer from Man U is done and is coming in the Summer. Agreed a deal for Cragno of Calgliari, £6m. He's been superb for them and I wanted a younger keeper to challenge Olsen. Olsen was out for three months and Mirante isn't quite good enough anymore.

Can't decide what to do with Pastore. He's class when he plays, but he's only played 15 times all season. Crisante and Pereria were my intended two for that position, may keep all three though, depending on transfer budget I get.

[LucasBR]

36 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Had a winless run of five games and got called to a board meeting, thankfully a run of five straight wins satisfied the board. Sitting sixth and should be able to get Europa League at worst, sitting three points of both Milan sides who are 3rd/4th.

Planning for next season has begun. Pereira on a free transfer from Man U is done and is coming in the Summer. Agreed a deal for Cragno of Calgliari, £6m. He's been superb for them and I wanted a younger keeper to challenge Olsen. Olsen was out for three months and Mirante isn't quite good enough anymore.

Can't decide what to do with Pastore. He's class when he plays, but he's only played 15 times all season. Crisante and Pereria were my intended two for that position, may keep all three though, depending on transfer budget I get.

Pastore is very good but his injury prones is a bitch, I think you sould sell him and buy another guy... Wheres Lore Pellegrini and Coric? What is your tactical style?

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, LucasBR said:

Pastore is very good but his injury prones is a bitch, I think you sould sell him and buy another guy... Wheres Lore Pellegrini and Coric? What is your tactical style?

Pellegrini starts as my BBM. Think he's scored 6/7 goals from there, most long range.

Coric is on loan to Guingamp, been average. Zaniolo seems the better prospect, and he's played well when I've put him in. 

Definitely think I'll try and sell Pastore this Summer now. Might keep Coric around and let Zaniolo get regular games somewhere.

Need a CB aswell, as haven't found any great partner for Manolas yet. Jesus and Marcano both play fine, but have games where they're terrible. Fazio went to China for over £10m in January. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[Harryseaess]

I signed Luis Alberto for what I thought was a bargain £35m from Lazio, he did great for them last season, however, I've not been able to get him to perform. Currently playing him in the AMC spot as an AP(S) (his preferred position). Any tips? His stats look phenomenal.

[LucasBR]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Pellegrini starts as my BBM. Think he's scored 6/7 goals from there, most long range.

Coric is on loan to Guingamp, been average. Zaniolo seems the better prospect, and he's played well when I've put him in. 

Definitely think I'll try and sell Pastore this Summer now. Might keep Coric around and let Zaniolo get regular games somewhere.

Need a CB aswell, as haven't found any great partner for Manolas yet. Jesus and Marcano both play fine, but have games where they're terrible. Fazio went to China for over £10m in January. 

Zaniolo looks incredible. Im signed Tonali and let him spend a season in Brescia... Sold Manolas to Real Madrid and bought De Ligt... Bought Gronli and loaned him to Carpi and sign a contract with Tin Hrvoj from Dinamo Zagreb.

GK - Olsen
RB - Florenzi
CD- De Ligt
CD - Fazio
LB - Kolarov/Luca Pellegrini
DM - De Rossi/N'Zonzi/Marcucci
CM- Lore Pellegrini
CM- Cristante/Pastore
AMR - Under/Kluivert
AML- Kluivert/ El Shara
STC- Dzeko/Schick/Zelar

I pretend sold Perotti, Marcano or Fazio and Karsdorp or Santon in summer window.

Edited November 16, 2018 by LucasBR

[ParanoidBuddha]

Lol I managed to get 60Mio € + 15(3 years) + 5 bonus for Mandzukic but for my ''rules'' (my director manages the scouts and I buy just the players they suggest me) I don't have a good substitute to buy 
I don't know what to do even because he has been amazing until now..

Edited November 16, 2018 by ParanoidBuddha

[Ronaldo Beckham]

Anyone recommend any young Italian players I can sign for AC Milan, already got Tonalli.

I am going to play some of the young players at Milan like Cutrone etc.

[ParanoidBuddha]

In questo momento, Ronaldo Beckham ha scritto:

Anyone recommend any young Italian players I can sign for AC Milan, already got Tonalli.

I am going to play some of the young players at Milan like Cutrone etc.

Role? Budget? 

[Ronaldo Beckham]

I have already spent most of my budget but have about 20m left for players to join in January.

Also looking for long term prospects for 2nd season.

Any positions other then keepers.

I signed Timothy Weah for nostalgia reasons as I want a Weah back in them beautiful Milan colors

[saosinfan4]

15 hours ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

First time I use the editor to modify something that can change the career but that wrong E.Can release clause ruined my game because I didn't even have enough money to renew his contract and remove it.
In real life it starts the 1 july 2021.

Lol. I would be happy to sell him for €50 million. I bought Milinkovic-Savic in January. I sold Benatia in the summer, Ronaldo became unhappy. I sold De Sciglio for €50 million!!! in January, Mandzukic became unhappy. Damn, my two best goalscorer are now unhappy.

After 22 games.

[ParanoidBuddha]

1 ora fa, saosinfan4 ha scritto:

Lol. I would be happy to sell him for €50 million. I bought Milinkovic-Savic in January. I sold Benatia in the summer, Ronaldo became unhappy. I sold De Sciglio for €50 million!!! in January, Mandzukic became unhappy. Damn, my two best goalscorer are now unhappy.

After 22 games.

Pavard 45?? They don't want to sell him in mine  
De sciglio? To who? ahah  Well, my De sciglio got injured badly and many his attributes dropped badly then I don't think I'll able to make decent money selling him
By now officially I just sold Perin for 25Mio €. I am like the 6 january and he has been injured already almost 2 months. As a 2nd GK I can find someone way cheaper. Let's see who my scouts suggest, if I find a decent young gk would be amazing because I let him regularly play in the u23 when he won't play in serie A/coppa Italia.
 

PS: just noticed the results, you are a monster  
PS2: how did you get 300Mio € net to spend? I disabled the first transfer window but in winter they give you like 26Mio €  

Edited November 16, 2018 by ParanoidBuddha

[ParanoidBuddha]

1 ora fa, Ronaldo Beckham ha scritto:

I have already spent most of my budget but have about 20m left for players to join in January.

Also looking for long term prospects for 2nd season.

Any positions other then keepers.

I signed Timothy Weah for nostalgia reasons as I want a Weah back in them beautiful Milan colors

In general no idea, in real life they are too many for each role (that's why I asked) and I haven't check the PA in game  

[Ronaldo Beckham]

 

8 minutes ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

In general no idea, in real life they are too many for each role (that's why I asked) and I haven't check the PA in game  

Oh ok I was just looking for maybe the top 10 best young Italian players that will come to Milan.

[EstebanNero]

Decided to punt for Roma this year. Absolutely loved the look of the squad, combinations of physical, technical, experience and youth. It was for this reason my only transfer in was Meret for £25m. 

When it comes to the peninsula tactically, two things are instricic for me. Three at the back being the first and the classic No10. So it was the 3-4-1-2 was born. 

It was a season that promised so much. We fought Juventus till the last day for the title, but ultimately fell short by 3 points. Fiorentina upset our odds in the Coppa final. Alas Real Madrid dispatched us in the last 16 of the European cup. 

Apologies must go to our captain De Rossi who will leave in the summer trophyless. The promise of Under, Kluivert, Schick and Pellegrini however promises optimism for the future. 

[RandomGuy.]

2 hours ago, LucasBR said:

Zaniolo looks incredible. Im signed Tonali and let him spend a season in Brescia... Sold Manolas to Real Madrid and bought De Ligt... Bought Gronli and loaned him to Carpi and sign a contract with Tin Hrvoj from Dinamo Zagreb.

GK - Olsen
RB - Florenzi
CD- De Ligt
CD - Fazio
LB - Kolarov/Luca Pellegrini
DM - De Rossi/N'Zonzi/Marcucci
CM- Lore Pellegrini
CM- Cristante/Pastore
AMR - Under/Kluivert
AML- Kluivert/ El Shara
STC- Dzeko/Schick/Zelar

I pretend sold Perotti, Marcano or Fazio and Karsdorp or Santon in summer window.

Yes he looks incredible, hopefully be first choice within the next few seasons.

Perotti was an odd one, he's been my best winger but again, always injured. Demanded a transfer as he's not been playing regularly, because of injuries, so he'll probably be leaving this Summer.

 

[RandomGuy.]

4 minutes ago, EstebanNero said:

 

Apologies must go to our captain De Rossi who will leave in the summer trophyless. The promise of Under, Kluivert, Schick and Pellegrini however promises optimism for the future. 

I extended his contract. A Roma without Totti is bad enough, but having neither is unthinkable to me. I'm hoping to get him as a staff member when his time is up.

Costs me £80k a week, a lot of money.

Edited November 16, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[ParanoidBuddha]

In questo momento, Ronaldo Beckham ha scritto:

 

Oh ok I was just looking for maybe the top 10 best young Italian players that will come to Milan.

Well between the top 10 sure there are players as Pellegri, Kean, Chiesa, Barella etc but they are out of your budget atm! 

[Ronaldo Beckham]

1 hour ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

Well between the top 10 sure there are players as Pellegri, Kean, Chiesa, Barella etc but they are out of your budget atm! 

Ok cheers mate, I appreciate the suggestions.

[Harryseaess]

Absolutely gutted! He was having a brilliant season.

[saosinfan4]

2 hours ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

Pavard 45?? They don't want to sell him in mine  
De sciglio? To who? ahah  Well, my De sciglio got injured badly and many his attributes dropped badly then I don't think I'll able to make decent money selling him
By now officially I just sold Perin for 25Mio €. I am like the 6 january and he has been injured already almost 2 months. As a 2nd GK I can find someone way cheaper. Let's see who my scouts suggest, if I find a decent young gk would be amazing because I let him regularly play in the u23 when he won't play in serie A/coppa Italia.
 

PS: just noticed the results, you are a monster  
PS2: how did you get 300Mio € net to spend? I disabled the first transfer window but in winter they give you like 26Mio €  

The €300m is a bit misleading.

I sold Benatia to ManUnt for €27m and replaced him with de Ligt for €12m + €23m (3 isntalments of €7,77m each) This has had a positive impact on the finances in the short term.

I bought Milinkovic-Savic in January for €36m + €84m (3 isntalments of €28m each). But first I had to sell Spinazzola for €13m, otherwise, I would not have had the money to buy him.

I did not want to sell De Sciglio. He played very well for me.

During the transfer deadline day: Arsenal offered €27 million for him. I changed the offer to €35m + €15m (3 isntalments of €5m each) and they accepted it. I was very surprised and I got into a very uncomfortable situation. Finally, I confirmed the deal but I wish I had not. This deal caused many complications. Mandzukic became unhappy which made Ronaldo even more unhappy.

Then I did a panic move, I bought Pavard for €15m + €30m (3 isntalments of €10m each). It all happened on transfer deadline day, it was a very stressful day.

[EstebanNero]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I extended his contract. A Roma without Totti is bad enough, but having neither is unthinkable to me. I'm hoping to get him as a staff member when his time is up.

Costs me £80k a week, a lot of money.

The purist in me wanted to retain him, but with Gerson and Gonalons returning and the aforementioned rising star Zaniolo, there was no longer room in my heart. 

Another quiet summer for me with just the one signing, but what a signing. Welcome to the club Daniele Rugani!

 

[RandomGuy.]

15 minutes ago, EstebanNero said:

The purist in me wanted to retain him, but with Gerson and Gonalons returning and the aforementioned rising star Zaniolo, there was no longer room in my heart. 

Another quiet summer for me with just the one signing, but what a signing. Welcome to the club Daniele Rugani!

 

I'm planning on selling both those players  so can see how our plans have differed with De Rossi.

How much did Rugani cost? He's perfect for Roma.

[EstebanNero]

A whopping £50m. 3 points between ourselves and the old lady last season, he could be the difference. 

Anyone else experiencing a manager merrygoround?

Lazio - Simeone

Juventus - Nagelsmann

Napoli - Spalletti 

Inter - Mazzarri

Milan - Zidane 

[Ewan0404]

I know it's a big ask but can someone post up the player profile for each A.C. player?

[john1]

Kind of gone stale with My Torino save  So I will be starting new one with Ajax.

Good luck with your saves guys! Will be keeping my eyes on this  

[Harryseaess]

This absolute beauty has just arrived on regen day... The coach report already says that he's well suited to Serie A football.

Time to build my team around him.

[Harryseaess]

1 hour ago, Harryseaess said:

This absolute beauty has just arrived on regen day... The coach report already says that he's well suited to Serie A football.

Time to build my team around him.

Not a bad start to his career. Made his debut v Juventus and then a week later bagged his first ever goal against Atalanta.

[Marius_R]

Got the game yesterday and started my traditional Inter career that I do every year, went through pre-season and played the first game of the season.Still can't believe there's no way to defend against long ball over the defence, and how Hallfredson hit inch-perfect passes every time, that would make even Scholes or Hagi jealous. Corners seem OP as hell and the lone striker is useless. 

In terms of tactics, went with a 4-2-3-1, pretty much what Spaletti uses IRL and made no transfers during the first transfer window. Juventus sold Rugani and replaced him with Victor Ruiz , and also signed Mercado. Oh, and Allegri went to Real and was replaced by Conte. Will keep updating as I progress trough the game.

[john1]

9 hours ago, Harryseaess said:

This absolute beauty has just arrived on regen day... The coach report already says that he's well suited to Serie A football.

Time to build my team around him.

Beast! 

[Harryseaess]

Gutted and surprised! Who saw Udinese winning Serie A in the 2019/20 season??

[Carlf788]

I started as Atalanta and have played the first season but have put it on hold to start a Leeds save.

i came 3rd and qualified for the CL and duvan zapata is a beast he got 33 goals in Serie A. All felt a bit easy really! Atalanta have some great young players too. Signed Nathan ake from relegated Bournemouth for 20m. I play a diamond with ante coric off Roma as the number 10 and cutrone off Milan signed in January for 18m.

 

[RandomGuy.]

51 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

Gutted and surprised! Who saw Udinese winning Serie A in the 2019/20 season??

Surprised to see Ronaldo still doing so well, had assumed he'd maybe started to fade by that point.

[bangkonggedek]

13 hours ago, Harryseaess said:

This absolute beauty has just arrived on regen day... The coach report already says that he's well suited to Serie A football.

Time to build my team around him.

Looking nice indeed! BUT he got Fickle personality with decent value for Leadership, and not to mention a Team Leader too. Let's hope he won't be a bad influence over the rest of your youth players

6 hours ago, Marius_R said:

Got the game yesterday and started my traditional Inter career that I do every year, went through pre-season and played the first game of the season.Still can't believe there's no way to defend against long ball over the defence, and how Hallfredson hit inch-perfect passes every time, that would make even Scholes or Hagi jealous. Corners seem OP as hell and the lone striker is useless. 

In terms of tactics, went with a 4-2-3-1, pretty much what Spaletti uses IRL and made no transfers during the first transfer window. Juventus sold Rugani and replaced him with Victor Ruiz , and also signed Mercado. Oh, and Allegri went to Real and was replaced by Conte. Will keep updating as I progress trough the game.

Currently starting a Sampdoria save and exactly this happened as well. At least they're not stupid enough to sign Mercado though

58 minutes ago, Harryseaess said:

Gutted and surprised! Who saw Udinese winning Serie A in the 2019/20 season??

Udinese's Antonin Barak seemed like a proper beast on the few earlier saves that I had. Rather prone to injuries though.

[Harryseaess]

4 minutes ago, bangkonggedek said:

Looking nice indeed! BUT he got Fickle personality with decent value for Leadership, and not to mention a Team Leader too. Let's hope he won't be a bad influence over the rest of your youth players

Currently starting a Sampdoria save and exactly this happened as well. At least they're not stupid enough to sign Mercado though

Udinese's Antonin Barak seemed like a proper beast on the few earlier saves that I had. Rather prone to injuries though.

Yeah I know he's fickle, I'm mentoring him to hopefully change that.

Barak looks good 12 goals and 2 assists in 33 league games, average rating of 7.33.

[Marius_R]

1 hour ago, bangkonggedek said:

 

Currently starting a Sampdoria save and exactly this happened as well. At least they're not stupid enough to sign Mercado though

It's the reason I'm not enjoying Serie A saves as much as I did, I mean, Inter are the club I support IRL and always have a go with them, but when it will happen IRL, it's going to be a big task and it's going to be one hell of a team that finally stops Juve's streak, whereas in FM, there's hardly any sense of achievement in doing it, because they just implode 2-3 seasons into the game. Just checked in FM18 and they never got past the 90 pts mark in 6 in-game seasons, whilst I won the league twice with the lowest points tally ever since it went to being a 20-team league, 82 and 83 pts. Juventus finished on 78 and 76. Something is massively flawed in Juventus and it's been this way in the last three editions.

Their transfers have been pretty much spot on IRL for a couple of years, probably some of the best amongst the top clubs in Europa, but that simply doesn't reflect in-game.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Marius_R

[RandomGuy.]

Juventus top the league in my save, tied with Napoli but 10 points ahead of 3rd.

Only signings were Victor Ruiz and Emerson, a 23yo Brazilian left winger. Not sure of their sales, but know they loaned Ruiz out in January and he's agreed to join that team in the Summer, can't remember who it was.

[bangkonggedek]

7 minutes ago, Marius_R said:

It's the reason I'm not enjoying Serie A saves as much as I did, I mean, Inter are the club I support IRL and always have a go with them, but when it will happen IRL, it's going to be a big task and it's going to be one hell of a team that finally stops Juve's streak, whereas in FM, there's hardly any sense of achievement in doing it, because they just implode 2-3 seasons into the game. Just checked in FM18 and they never got past the 90 pts mark in 6 in-game seasons, whilst I won the league twice with the lowest points tally ever since it went to being a 20-team league, 82 and 83 pts. Juventus finished on 78 and 76. Something is massively flawed in Juventus and it's been this way in the last three editions.

Their transfers have been pretty much spot on IRL for a couple of years, probably some of the best amongst the top clubs in Europa, but that simply doesn't reflect in-game.

Yeah, looks like quite a few had reported the AI Juventus doing some pretty baffling transfers. I had an earlier Portuguese club career this FM where they just sell their better players and bought a bunch of middling names, many of whom are either then got transfer-listed right away come the next transfer window or simply left unregistered for the season

Dunno where the cause of the issue lies though. Can't be their scouting/transfer team, as they're already great from the start in game at least for visible attribute-wise.

[ParanoidBuddha]

January transfer window

OUT:
Perin 25Mio €     [he's good and italian but he stayed injured almost 2 months in the first months, pretty useless with me. I'll probably buy a youngster even because next year I'll get Audero back]
Mandzukic 60+15(3 years) Mio €     [really sad about this because he was AMAZING but I can't refuse 75Mio € for an almost 33yo player that isn't an elite one]  
Costa 90 + 20(3 years) Mio €     [very good but the substitute I think and hope will be better]

IN:
Hazard 40+48(3 years) Mio €
Milinkovic Savic 40+80(3 years) Mio €     [this isn't sure because Lazio has first to buy a midfielder and imo they haven't enough time to do it]





Now I need to work on a reserve ST, I think to buy for 15Mio € Mariano of Real Madrid and I have to buy a reserve GK but as I said above I think I'll go for an u21. If I find a decent CB, I'll sell even Benatia that wants to leave and btw Real Madrid is offering decent money.

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by ParanoidBuddha

[RandomGuy.]

Inter lost the day before. My Champions League hopes rest on the final five minutes of the season.

[RandomGuy.]

We weren't able to do it, Lazio then won their game and took the final spot. Board are fairly unhappy.

Willian Jose didn't score for the final few months, Schick stepped up to a point, as did Gomez, but its a worry. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[john1]

@RandomGuy. Hope they let you keep your job! Unlucky!

[RandomGuy.]

48 minutes ago, john1 said:

@RandomGuy. Hope they let you keep your job! Unlucky!

I'd luckily signed a new contract a few weeks before so have managed to stay in charge.

Have issues with players being stalked by teams in the CL though. I've managed to keep Willian Jose with a pay rise, but Under will leave if we don't qualify for it this season after I'd rejected an approach from Man U.

Manolas will be off though, he's been hugely unsettled by a variety of clubs and is now a nuisance. Real Madrid came in and blew the other teams out the water so I'm just waiting on confirmation he's agreed a deal with them. Struggling to find a direct replacement so having to gamble on a younger player.

[Evanescent]

Just realised that Filippo Melegoni picked up the Wonderkid tag in my save. Guy loves training, consistently a 10.00. Every month the HoYD tells me he is showing remarkable improvements in training.

2nd Season going well. Currently 2nd, which is about the best I can do. Juventus are 11 pts clear and on track for an unbeaten season (17W-7D-0L). Am 8 pts ahead of 5th so hopefully I can keep it up and snag a UCL spot. Turned down some crazy bids for Musa Barrow from Leipzig. Quiet January with just 2 ins from the transfer list (Murru, Capradossi) and one out (Djimsiti).

[CapaJr]

On 14/11/2018 at 23:45, ParanoidBuddha said:

@sedge111 save is a good sample size. I am sure many others can post Juventus struggling in serie A and even worse in CL

They aren’t doing so bad in my first save too.

I’ll be starting with Atalanta so lets see how my second save will be for Juve!

Edited November 18, 2018 by CapaJr

[ParanoidBuddha]

15 minuti fa, CapaJr ha scritto:

They aren’t doing so bad in my first save too.

I’ll be starting with Atalanta so lets see how my second save will be for Juve!

Thank you for posting!!  In CL?

[ParanoidBuddha]

Il 16/11/2018 in 22:37 , Ewan0404 ha scritto:

I know it's a big ask but can someone post up the player profile for each A.C. player?

All first team? Make a list and I'll post as soon I can  

[RandomGuy.]

6 hours ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

Thank you for posting!!  In CL?

They made the CL Final in my save. Lost to Liverpool. 

Their only signing this Summer is a 20yo Brazilian playmaker with a "wonderkid" tag. Only big sales were Mandzukic to Lazio for £15m and Emre Can to Chelsea for £52m. So guess this signing was to replace Can, and the signed a young left winger the January before to technically replace Mandzukic.

Edited November 18, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[Ewan0404]

7 hours ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

All first team? Make a list and I'll post as soon I can  

I was looking for the whole first team but know it's a big ask. 

If not just Romagnoli, Cutrone, Kessie and Suso.

Also has anyone used Locatelli this season?

[RandomGuy.]

These are my transfers before the second season.

Some big names in there. Pastore, Perotti and Jesus just didn't fit into my squad. Manolas demanded a move and I couldn't reject that much. I spent the whole Summer trying to sign Bentacur from Juve, was transfer listed for £10m but couldn't agree personal terms, Got Monchi to go for it, and he agreed terms a day or two before deadline day, then the whole Manolas to Madrid saga started and I had to divert funds to a centre half. Deal for Bentacur was in place until the end of the window, but Manolas didn't leave until after, so I didn't have the money to finalise that deal

Allesio Cragno - Mirante retired so Cragno will compete with Olsen.

Spoiler

Diego Llorente - Wanted a left sided CH to play beside Manolas, and Llorente looked perfect for that, obviously those plans ruined by Manolas' sale.

Spoiler

Mouctar Diakhaby - My replacement for Manolas. Obviously a downgrade but has all the same strengths, apart from pace, and was the best I could find that was affordable. A gamble.

Spoiler

Bryan Crisante - Deal was agreed before I joined.

Spoiler

Andreas Pereira - Can play AP and both wings, should be more reliable than Pastore in terms of game time and will hopefully develop.

Spoiler

Domenico Berardi - Kluivert and Under were inconsistent, and El Shaaraway was injured a lot, so wanted a proven, quality Italian IF. Berardi was absolutely perfect.

Spoiler

 

[EstebanNero]

Great money for Manolas. He's fallen off a cliff for me form wise. Love the home grown additions of Beradi and Cragno. Forza Roma!

As we head into the winter break it would appear I have developed the golden touch. Unbeaten, 52 goals, 51 points and 16 clear of Juventus. Surely we can't throw it away?