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Cleon

Paysandu - The No Attribute Way

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4 hours ago, Cleon said:

@herne79

I don't have many candidates to play the Mez role due to playing with fake players and starting a year in front, rather than the 2017 season. So this is the player who will be playing the role mainly due to his report saying he has good work rate, speed, versatility and is technical. 

Untitled.thumb.png.5160033aae385aac23ed372ba8dfd4cc.png

The flip side of this are his cons. He lacks the ability to beat players, is poor off the ball and lacks anticipation. It'll be interesting when I analyse the tactic and how it plays to see how well/poor he is in the role. I think his technical ability and work rate should make up for a lot of his deficiencies imo.

I think this and how you are approaching this challenge is an abject lesson in actually reading coach/scout reports which are all too often overlooked :thup:.

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13 hours ago, yonko said:

@Cleon I don't mean to steer this into another subject too much, but I can't help to ask. How do the issues with the current ME affect what you want to show with this project?

I haven't seen you comment on them so far, so I'm curious what you think. If you have time and don't want to reply here, feel free to PM me your reply. Thanks.

There will be issues with any match engine, i think the best time to play the game is when it's at its most challenging. So far i don't see any gamebreaking ones that prevent us from playing the way we want, it's just really tough to beat defensive teams, which honestly is just fine. 

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4 hours ago, herne79 said:

I think this and how you are approaching this challenge is an abject lesson

Object lesson, not abject! Carry on... :D

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2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I prefer mine :D.

I find I can't argue with that :p

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Regardless of the type of lesson :Dim going to take some principles of this into my save, so will await further updates eagerly. 

I randomly went to Tranmere for the match yesterday, really enjoyed it, therefore, im going to use them as my first (hopefully) long term save. Im not familiar with their players or the kind of players ill be up against or able to buy. I will definitely need to use more thorough means of understanding and assessing the players. 

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hi cleon,

it sounds really interesting that you gonna try. I want to ask you what you will do with training?

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Highly interesting experience that I'm following very closely.  Nonetheless, since Saturday, one question is burning me...  If, for the players, there is a scout/coaching report that gives you some hints on the player, how do you proceed when selecting your staffs???  I mean, there is no souc/coach report per se.  the best "attribute" you could guess is by the personnality if it is something like pretty determined or determined, maybe professionnal too (i.e. discipline?).  I know you have tendencies presented like prefered formation, approach of the game, etc...  but coaching wise, or even scouting wise, how have you made a selection between X, Y and Z who applied for the job?

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15 hours ago, gman796 said:

hi cleon,

it sounds really interesting that you gonna try. I want to ask you what you will do with training?

I'm just focusing on sessions that enhance the style of football I am playing.

8 hours ago, Rien102 said:

Highly interesting experience that I'm following very closely.  Nonetheless, since Saturday, one question is burning me...  If, for the players, there is a scout/coaching report that gives you some hints on the player, how do you proceed when selecting your staffs???  I mean, there is no souc/coach report per se.  the best "attribute" you could guess is by the personnality if it is something like pretty determined or determined, maybe professionnal too (i.e. discipline?).  I know you have tendencies presented like prefered formation, approach of the game, etc...  but coaching wise, or even scouting wise, how have you made a selection between X, Y and Z who applied for the job?

His personality doesn't give you any indication about his attributes or what he is good at. I'm just selecting people with decent personalities and who have tendencies that best match how I'm playing. That's all I can do when hiring staff as I can't see the attributes. I have very little else to go on :)

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Il y a 4 heures, Cleon a dit :

His personality doesn't give you any indication about his attributes or what he is good at. I'm just selecting people with decent personalities and who have tendencies that best match how I'm playing. That's all I can do when hiring staff as I can't see the attributes. I have very little else to go on :)

damn... it's like the lottery!  Basically, especially for the training, it means he could be a "good bloke" who is a good match, tendies wise, but he could be an absolute butt with a grand total of 10 in Determination+motivating+discipline attributes??? 

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2 hours ago, Rien102 said:

damn... it's like the lottery!  Basically, especially for the training, it means he could be a "good bloke" who is a good match, tendies wise, but he could be an absolute butt with a grand total of 10 in Determination+motivating+discipline attributes??? 

Indeed. But it's not the end of the world, I'd rather have staff who shares my tendencies than high attributes. Ideally I'd like both but there is no way of telling on this save. So tendencies are the most important for me.

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On 06/11/2018 at 08:44, Cleon said:

RPM - There has to be someone who can play with the ball at their feet and bring it forward. He is very much the link player in the system. Without this type of role, I struggle to see how the ball would get to the attacking players.

I very much looking forward to this part, whether the RPM will actually be able to do that. I find that in FM 19 he rarely surges forward, especially from deeper positions, but I would love to be proven otherwise. Gr8 work by the way!

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25 minutes ago, craiigman said:

How's it going Cleon? When you thinking next update will be?

No idea. When its ready like always I guess. My daughter is in hospital so FM is the last thing on my mind. I get that you want updates but no point keep posting ask when it'll be etc, it doesn't make it go faster. 

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On 01/12/2018 at 11:37, Cleon said:

No idea. When its ready like always I guess. My daughter is in hospital so FM is the last thing on my mind. I get that you want updates but no point keep posting ask when it'll be etc, it doesn't make it go faster. 

Oh my, I do hope all is well and she makes a speedy recovery. 

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On 02/12/2018 at 05:37, Cleon said:

My daughter is in hospital so FM is the last thing on my mind.

I hope your daughter recovers Cleon, FM and forums are hugely irrelavant in comparison to your family and their health. 

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POST 5 UPDATED

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If only there was a way to look at player performance stats for past seasons, this approach would be so much better. It's ludicrous that they disappear during the summer window, exactly when they're of most use.

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13 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

If only there was a way to look at player performance stats for past seasons, this approach would be so much better. It's ludicrous that they disappear during the summer window, exactly when they're of most use.

Indeed.

However for how I play, I'm not sure it would have a single bearing on what I'm doing currently. It doesn't matter how players played for other managers or what they've done at other clubs. Because 99% of the time, they'd be playing differently for me. I only care about what they could 'possibly' do when I'm manually watching them. Goals/assists/tackles etc on FM are pretty meaningless unless they're playing in the exact same way and style that I am. I can take a striker who hasn't scored many goals and make him a regular scorer. I can make someone who has never got an assists an assist king and so on. The set up is the most important thing for me. Not saying it wouldn't be useful for other people. But myself, it wouldn't make a difference. 

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Posted (edited)

I was thinking more of tackles won, shot % on target, shot goal %, crosses completed, pass completion, key passes per 90, blah blah blah blah

In a perfect world there'd be enough of that kind of data to meaningfully analyse players without having to look at attributes so much. I know those stats depend at least partly on the style of play of the player's current side / his role in it, but that is something you can take into account.

Edited by ceefax the cat

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Maybe someone could make a way of spitting out entire seasons' worth of player stats into a spreadsheet so it didn't disappear....?

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2 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

I was thinking more of tackles won, shot % on target, shot goal %, crosses completed, pass completion, key passes per 90, blah blah blah blah

In a perfect world there'd be enough of that kind of data to meaningfully analyse players without having to look at attributes so much. I know those stats depend at least partly on the style of play of the player's current side / his role in it, but that is something you can take into account.

It's still not something I'd take into consideration though in this type of save or would use. 

1 minute ago, ceefax the cat said:

Maybe someone could make a way of spitting out entire seasons' worth of player stats into a spreadsheet so it didn't disappear....?

Or you can just save the game every year so you can always go back and reference?

 

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4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It's still not something I'd take into consideration though in this type of save or would use. 

Or you can just save the game every year so you can always go back and reference?

 

I think it's a bit bizarre to ignore attributes in the name of realism and then also ignore all the data that would actually be available in the real world. Don't really understand your thinking there but hey

Constantly saving and loading, closing and opening over and over for every group of players I wanted to take a look at? Screenshotting presumably, or writing down stats? That would finally tip FM over the edge into an actual day job I think

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1 minute ago, ceefax the cat said:

I think it's a bit bizarre to ignore attributes in the name of realism and then also ignore all the data that would actually be available in the real world. Don't really understand your thinking there but hey

Constantly saving and loading, closing and opening over and over for every group of players I wanted to take a look at? Screenshotting presumably, or writing down stats? That would finally tip FM over the edge into an actual day job I think

It's easy to ignore because those aren't the stats clubs use to determine if someone is to be bought or not in real life either. You don't have to understand my thinking, it's just my way of playing this particular save to add some enjoyment and make things more of a challenge for myself. If you or anyone else would do it a different way, then great for you. 

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16 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

think it's a bit bizarre to ignore attributes in the name of realism and then also ignore all the data that would actually be available in the real world. Don't really understand your thinking there but hey

Like @Cleonsaid... Its not helpful, all the time, to know the stats. Player x has 90% tackle success.... OK but he played what role, position, duty?

Using scout report of a players pros and cons is more useful to think about how he will fit into your own tactic

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@Cleon you don’t have any issues with striker? Is he dropping deep like he should? Think it’s a common issue and I can’t get my striker to play as I want him to.

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16 hours ago, buachuta said:

@Cleon you don’t have any issues with striker? Is he dropping deep like he should? Think it’s a common issue and I can’t get my striker to play as I want him to.

I don't use a striker who I expect to drop deep. So he does exactly as I want him to do. 

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@Cleon  your article on the inside forward, where can i find it and also does the principles apply in FM19? 

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54 minutes ago, Amarante said:

@Cleon  your article on the inside forward, where can i find it and also does the principles apply in FM19? 

It's still the same principles yeah, it always will be. It can be found on my blog along with all my other articles :) ;

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/meet-inside-forward

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9 hours ago, Cleon said:

I don't use a striker who I expect to drop deep. So he does exactly as I want him to do. 

Isn't he a false 9 then as it is in OP?

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53 minutes ago, buachuta said:

Isn't he a false 9 then as it is in OP?

Those aren't tactics I'm using, they were just options. You not read the thread? I show the roles and tactic I am using in the W-M. the striker is a CF.

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53 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Those aren't tactics I'm using, they were just options. You not read the thread? I show the roles and tactic I am using in the W-M. the striker is a CF.

Oh ffs, I don't know how I missed that :D 

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@Cleon How are you finding the inverted winbacks ? Do they actually come inside or just function like a regular fullback ?

I ask this because the game description says they might not work if you use 2 DMs but maybe since yours are halfbacks they leave enough space ?

Cheers

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7 hours ago, forlegaizen said:

@Cleon How are you finding the inverted winbacks ? Do they actually come inside or just function like a regular fullback ?

I ask this because the game description says they might not work if you use 2 DMs but maybe since yours are halfbacks they leave enough space ?

Cheers

They come inside fine and do what you expect of them. I think you can see their positioning in the analysis I added last?

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The next part is taking much longer than I'd have liked. But I want to fit as much info into the post as possible. So it's likely to be a very long read. These are the things I'm fitting into the next part about the W-M Formation and how/why it works;

  1. Introduction

  2. The Objective

  3. What does the system offer

  4. Which areas will I naturally be exposed in

  5. Split the match into 20-30 min periods

  6. Discuss the patterns

  7. Discuss how games end compared to how they start

  8. Defending an advantage, chasing the game, still all square but with more in game context.

  9. Should I change things up based on how the opposition play (mainly shape)

  10. How could I switch the roles up to gain an advantage

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2 hours ago, Cleon said:

The next part is taking much longer than I'd have liked. But I want to fit as much info into the post as possible. So it's likely to be a very long read. These are the things I'm fitting into the next part about the W-M Formation and how/why it works;

 

  1. Introduction

  2. The Objective

  3. What does the system offer

  4. Which areas will I naturally be exposed in

  5. Split the match into 20-30 min periods

  6. Discuss the patterns

  7. Discuss how games end compared to how they start

  8. Defending an advantage, chasing the game, still all square but with more in game context.

  9. Should I change things up based on how the opposition play (mainly shape)

  10. How could I switch the roles up to gain an advantage

Sounds like a dream post! Just curious, from the titles I presume this tactic requires a lot of in game managing, more than a simpler one?

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24 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

Sounds like a dream post! Just curious, from the titles I presume this tactic requires a lot of in game managing, more than a simpler one?

No not at all. It's just I want to be in depth. The stuff in 8,9 and 10 for example, are stuff I very rarely do. But I'm attempting to challenge those who read it, mindset and thinking. So they can see I could go about stuff differently or approach it from a different angle. Its all stuff that the user can apply to their own save.

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Great thread/concept @Cleon.  Consider me inspired and I'm giving the no-attribute approach on my new save with Sparta Rotterdam.   

I'm not going in totally blind as I know the squad from a previous save I had with them a few months back, but it'll be interesting to see how I do as things evolve over a few seasons. 

I'll mostly be using a DoF approach to transfers but will veto any signings he tries to bring in that doesn't align with my approach, but will also do some eye-ball scouting of my own to identify targets. 

Edited by sparkyunited

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Em 06/11/2018 em 20:47, wkdsoul disse:

Hey @wkdsoul i wanted do know, please, what is the exact itens that remove the attributes? Because i dropped all the itens on my skin but didn't like much of the view.

I wanted the old one, just without the attributes. Or, if I can know what every item actually changes in the player panel screen I would make a view of my own using your panels, you know? Thanks n advance.

image.thumb.png.6ba191ba726ec1780468a8fed009b972.png

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