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Cleon

Paysandu - The No Attribute Way

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This year on Football Manager 2019, I want to try something new tactically rather than covering stuff I’ve done before and going over old ground. But I’ve been struggling to decide which idea I should go with, due to having so many of them and my brain going into overdrive. So I thought I’d do a post explaining the options I could take and then allow you to help me make the final decision.

4-2-3-1

One of the options I toyed with originally was to mimic Paysandu’s real life tactics. This issue with this however is they play a 4-2-3-1 shape and I covered that last year, well the deep version with defensive midfielders. Nonetheless, it’s always satisfying replicating real life systems, especially when you find some really good analysis to base it off. I was lucky enough to stumble across some analysis from https://twitter.com/torotatico. I couldn’t find exactly what I was looking for, so I sent them a message on Twitter and Mathaus Almeida who runs the site gave me some really detailed analysis. Mathaus has been really helpful and gone above what I was expecting with his analysis, so for that I am very grateful.

Paysandu aren’t a stable club, they’re on the fifth manager this year already. Which means it’s hard to find some kind of tactical identity to copy. However there is some positives under the current manager João Brigatti. Paysandu don’t strictly stick to a 4-2-3-1 formation and it can often be described as a 4-5-1/4-4-1-1/4-3-3 depending on the phase of play. This gives us some wiggle room on Football Manager because we can manipulate the shape we use to attack however we want via the roles and duties used. When Paysandu attack, they tend to attack in a 3-3-4 or a 3-2-5 shape.

We could use most of the shapes I mentioned above as a base to work from. But ultimately it will likely come back to playing like a 4-2-3-1 and as I’m wanting to avoid repeating what I’ve written about tactically in the past, I’m not sure this is the best option but it is an interesting and realistic approach. Which fits what I’m doing on the game.......

3-4-2-1

3421.png?resize=465%2C602

Another option is to use some kind of variation of the 3-4-2-1 formation above. The roles above aren’t what I’d use obviously, those were just the preset options I had. For the 3-4-2-1 to work I’d need to add the following to the system;

  • Someone who can play the ball out from the back.
  • Wingers or wing backs who can get up and down the pitch to offer width.
  • A no nonsense midfielder who won’t shy away from a tackle.
  • Attacking midfielder who can create chances and space, use space and support the striker.

Those would be the fundamentals that I need for the system to work. There are many different combinations that I can use when setting this up and one of the reasons it’s an option. It’s intriguing because it’s a very flexible system and will create an abundance of passing triangles throughout the side.

3-2-2-3/W-M Formation

3223.png?resize=474%2C614

Okay so I’ve wrote about this one in the past a number of times, however I don’t think any of it exists online any longer (with all images intact) as it was on the old hosts before they went bust and I lost everything. Those of you who have followed me for a while will know of my love for the W-M formation. I believe the system still has a place in the modern footballing world but its hard work to get it functioning how you want. If I really wanted I could push the two central midfielders up to the attacking midfield positions to give it a different kind of attacking threat.

From an article perspective, I think this formation will bring some of the more interesting ones due to the issues I’ll have implementing it and how I’ll have to view the games to spot issues. I’ll be doing a lot of analysis this year anyway but I think this would be the most challenging to write about.

5-1-3-1/Bielsa-esque

5131.png?resize=474%2C579

One of the more interesting football concepts would be to do something along the lines of what Bielsa does. There isn’t a shortage of content covering the Argentine, so I’d have lots of stuff to reference and watch if I go down this path.

The downside to this is there are probably a million people all doing the same thing this year. Do I really want to be a sheep and follow what everyone else is doing? I’m not sure I do but I don’t want to rule it out until I see what other content creators have/are doing.

3-5-1-1

3511.png?resize=474%2C607

Last year I wrote about the Segundo Volante role and how great it was. I also posted some screenshots on Twitter of me using a modern day Brazilian Box formation using two of them. But it was just a throw away idea. The idea itself does still interest me though. The rest of the roles in the system above aren’t what I’d use I don’t think but the two Segundo Volante’s are something I’d keep.

I’m just wondering if this system would be much different from the 3-5-2’s I wrote about last year and the year before. I have a feeling they’d end up pretty similar in terms of how they function, even if I mix up the roles.

There are other ideas I have but if I wrote about them all, I’d be here all day and never finish this short article off. My issue isn’t I’m short of ideas, if anything it’s the opposite and I have too many. As this will be my only save on Football Manager 2019 though, I need to make sure I keep it interesting as it’s highly unlikely that I switch the system up once I’ve started. The reason being is that I’ll be building the club towards playing a specific way and developing the players for certain positions. So the philosophy I instill on the club has to correct from the start and I don’t want to build towards something in terms of player development then in a few years time, decide to throw that away and start again tactically.

If you have any interesting ideas yourself on how I should set up, I’m willing to consider them. Please post them below for me to see, or if you like the idea of some of the stuff I’ve mentioned above then please let me know.

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Oh my.

Cleon you never stop amazing me

Edited by Taipan

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I feel like you know the Brazilian league quite well? You have made the challenge very difficult without attributes, but if your knowledge of the Brazilian league is good then you will know enough of player quality and they type of player they are, not to rely on the attributes. Im thinking i could get by for a few seasons in many of the leagues i know well. 

An added challenge (but may take some of the fun away) would be to use fake players from the start. 

Will follow with interest :thup:

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15 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I feel like you know the Brazilian league quite well? You have made the challenge very difficult without attributes, but if your knowledge of the Brazilian league is good then you will know enough of player quality and they type of player they are, not to rely on the attributes. Im thinking i could get by for a few seasons in many of the leagues i know well. 

An added challenge (but may take some of the fun away) would be to use fake players from the start. 

Will follow with interest :thup:

I will be using fake names. No point doing it if not as you'd know everyone :D

Also I'm hoping they get relegated irl to add more of a challenge starting a level down. 

 

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Good luck with this, Cleon. I am sure you'll be watching statistics as well. I'm very interested in how you would analyse it, since (for example) pass % could be quite misleading as it may be short sideways and backwards passes. So, I'm guessing it'll be stats combined with watching a lot of the player as well.

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5 hours ago, Bobby_Zamora said:

@Cleon it's a travesty that Paysandu has a red & white color. Just sayin' :)

They don't, they are blue and white, no idea what you're on about :D

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Good luck with this, Cleon. I am sure you'll be watching statistics as well. I'm very interested in how you would analyse it, since (for example) pass % could be quite misleading as it may be short sideways and backwards passes. So, I'm guessing it'll be stats combined with watching a lot of the player as well.

I think it'll mainly be more visuals I use rather than concentrating on stats. It's hard to put down in words and will be better explained by showing examples when I actually start :)

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@Cleon Looking forward to the next installments.  :thup:

You're able to spot more than I can in a match - saw that with the SI sports centre exercise, so would be very interesting how you rate players. Will you eventually do a 20/20 hindsight look at just how well you did rate them?

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4 minutes ago, Cleon said:

They don't, they are blue and white, no idea what you're on about :D

Your ingame colors for Paysandu :) Check the screenies you posted :]

I've been to their ground twice, installed a system for data collection/analysis there and at their training ground. They're great people.

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4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

@Cleon Looking forward to the next installments.  :thup:

You're able to spot more than I can in a match - saw that with the SI sports centre exercise, so would be very interesting how you rate players. Will you eventually do a 20/20 hindsight look at just how well you did rate them?

I'm hoping this will give people an insight into how I watch matches and make decisions. 

I've half written a bit about players and how I'll rate them. It's almost real life scout like. I've even devised a system using certain criteria, that I'll be looking for when watching the players myself.

I'm not sure I want to know just how good someone is, until I've finished with the same. But I might upload the save at various points, so people can look around and get the answers for stuff that I can't actually see. That way I don't ruin my save by knowing. Plus everyone will get to see the sheer amount of notes I use in game too. I think it might surprise people :D

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3 minutes ago, Bobby_Zamora said:

Your ingame colors for Paysandu :) Check the screenies you posted :]

I've been to their ground twice, installed a system for data collection/analysis there and at their training ground. They're great people.

That was before the 'fix'. They're blue and white now. These screens aren't from my save, I've not started yet.

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33 minutes ago, Bobby_Zamora said:

Your ingame colors for Paysandu :) Check the screenies you posted :]

I've been to their ground twice, installed a system for data collection/analysis there and at their training ground. They're great people.

Yes, due to those licensing issues the background colors of the clubs are all wrong.

@Cleon Interesting challenge.

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Taking a look at the attributes when the save is over will be really interesting... We could make you do a blind test of a couple of your stars and see how close you get :p

Itd be fun maybe when the save is drawing to a close to also hide the physical profile of the player: report card says they are strong in the air = hmmmm target man (aerial type) material... On debut realise he is 5'4 :D

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I tried to do this on FM17 and the thing that really liked it was not being able to look at player stats from past seasons. If it were easier to manipulate performance data then you could scout in a fairly realistic way without recourse to attributes. 

I suppose my ideal profile front page would have lists of historical performance data + recent form + training data if he's one of mine. 

Attributes are one of the least realistic things about the game if you think about it. 

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OOOh looking forward to seeing how this works.. Cleon post mentioned me... :hammer:

Edited by wkdsoul

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56 minutes ago, wkdsoul said:

OOOh looking forward to seeing how this works.. Cleon post mentioned me... :hammer:

I have to give credit where due, I’d not be able to play this way without the panels from yourself 😎

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

I have to give credit where due, I’d not be able to play this way without the panels from yourself 😎

Nice work @wkdsoul. Of course, I just removed them completely in my attempt :D 

Did you remove the columns being available in views, if not, I still have those files if you need them.

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15 hours ago, Cleon said:

What I’m wanting from you though, is to give me suggestions to make the game more unique and different to what everyone else is doing. So if you have any suggestions please post them below or on Twitter.

Just be the coach and not the manager.  Give your Director of Football full control of transfers and contracts.

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Just now, Robson 07 said:

Give your Director of Football full control of transfers and contracts.

Sounds very @fmFutbolManager that...... ;)

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8 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

Just be the coach and not the manager.  Give your Director of Football full control of transfers and contracts.

Boring and too easy, I may aswell just not play if I take that approach. The DOF will always sign decent players for the level I will be at. Seems a bit defeatist to what I'm trying to highlight. 

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23 hours ago, Cleon said:

What I’m wanting from you though, is to give me suggestions to make the game more unique and different to what everyone else is doing. So if you have any suggestions please post them below or on Twitter.

Hide the Staff attributes panel?

Therefore only having available their Reputation rating & the performance of their previous employer in their respective job area, as the means for assessing a staff member .

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Just now, Vokes said:

Hide the Staff attributes panel?

Therefore only having available their Reputation rating & the performance of their previous employer in their respective job area, as the means for assessing a staff member .

All attributes are already hidden. It's even mentioned in the title of this thread ;):D

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Ah, I assumed it was just the Player attributes were hidden. 

Have you customized the staff screen as well, along with hiding the coaching)scouting attributes?

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9 minutes ago, Vokes said:

Ah, I assumed it was just the Player attributes were hidden. 

Have you customized the staff screen as well, along with hiding the coaching)scouting attributes?

The attributes are just blank like in the player screenshot. Not customised the actual screen though no. I might have a look at doing this before I start though :)

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Very interested in seeing how this goes. Love the idea, not something I have the time to commit to personally, but will follow closely.

Is the octogon thing still in the game that groups attributes together and gives you an attacking rating etc? Will you be using that?

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13 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Very interested in seeing how this goes. Love the idea, not something I have the time to commit to personally, but will follow closely.

Is the octogon thing still in the game that groups attributes together and gives you an attacking rating etc? Will you be using that?

I’ve had it removed. 

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Interesting approach. I'm looking forward to see how you approach training with the new module.

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Quote

I’ve been struggling to decide which idea I should go with, due to having so many of them and my brain going into overdrive. So I thought I’d do a post explaining the options I could take and then allow you to help me make the final decision.

You could take the easy way out and fall back and play the 4-2-3-1, but honestly Cleon you could take the St Mary's U12 girls side to the top of the FM tree using the 4-2-3-1. Not much of a challenge there.

Do you really want to do 3-5-2 over again? Great formation but ya been there and got at least two T-Shirts.  5-1-3-1 is a also nice thought, though hardly unique it seems,.

I do like the 3-4-2-1, as I am interested in the delivery linking the back's to the wings/wing backs and forward on to the double AM's. My choice

You do love the 3-2-2-3, and I feel that formation is the one you will feel most passionate about.

So Cleon my summary is, do you go with with your head or your heart?  :D

Edited by Taipan

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11 minutes ago, Taipan said:

You could take the easy way out and fall back and play the 4-2-3-1, but honestly Cleon you could take the St Mary's U12 girls side to the top of the FM tree using the 4-2-3-1. Not much of a challenge there.

Do you really want to do 3-5-2 over again? Great formation but ya been there and got at least two T-Shirts.  5-1-3-1 is a also nice thought, though hardly unique it seems,.

I do like the 3-4-2-1, as I am interested in the delivery linking the back's to the wings/wing backs and forward on to the double AM's. My choice

You do love the 3-2-2-3, and I feel that formation is the one you will feel most passionate about.

So Cleon my summary is, do you go with with your head or your heart?  :D

This is like an exact image of the discussion I have with myself in my head :D

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Very nice approach. Very tempting. It really gives you a feel to watch the players and rely on reports from your staff what they noticed. You don't have this eagle eye view of what your players are good at in terms of specific numbers.

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@Cleon I think you should go with 4-4-1-1 formation. It's flexible and you can set it up in many ways through roles and duties. 

But I also think you should go with whatever you think will best represent what you want to show people with this project. Do you want to show everyone how powerful roles and duties are? I'm sure most of us are not aware of their power and how much they can change a tactic. 

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