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10 minutes ago, Louisking1992 said:

 

 

Is anyone going to look into this issue? Everything you need is in this post. 

Given a couple of devs a heads up to your thread

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Lots of things about what the game gets wrong so far in here so only fair to give credit when it's due - this, this I like very much;

Am in my 4th season in the PL now and it's fair to say Man City are my 'magnet club' in this save - you know, the one you draw in every cup and seem to play 8 times a season? They even knocked me out of several cups when I was in the lower leagues (but holy heck was the gate receipt cash useful!). Of all the big teams they've been consistently the best overall in this save, having won the CL 6 times in the ten season i've been playing and it's been great fun watching the dynamic change as our stature has increased, so much so that our next game is at my place and - i'm not sure if it's because of our awesome league form overall or the fact we're a bit of a bogey team for them - they seem to be making specific plans for how to face me!

We beat them in the away fixture this season using one of my bizarro concoctions when they went with the seemingly default 4123 Wide (and i say seemingly because there are always subtle changes to roles/duties and it's almost certain that other things under the hood are different - formation is just one aspect of a tactic set) that so many of the big teams use (along with the 4231);

image.thumb.png.67f9e7e7e29c4b7dfce76e6207cf4b77.png

We were actually really lucky to win that game (2-1) so when we played them in the Carabao cup final & the scout reports told me they'd line up the same way (which they did) and they were weakest to a 442 I changed it up to great effect, winning comfortably 4-1;

image.thumb.png.145a6c21ed52c9ca00f625407142b437.png

 

Now sure enough, with the game coming up in 5 days, I get the analyst report  - same City formation, same lovely weakness so I prepare my 442 and start my guys training for it only for a lovely wrench to get thrown into my plans when the City scouting report lands later that day (NB: my scout is pretty good and gets his stuff right in terms of opposition maybe 9/10 times - haven't counted exactly ofc);

image.thumb.png.2fc5a7728732c14f195c02b18fec566e.png

I've yet to face any team playing this system before in these ten seasons (and don't remember facing it in any of my other saves) and nor is it one of their managers preferred alts (he's been in charge for a few years anyway);

image.thumb.png.4f57495e6aa82a54638ed14a5b4edbfe.png

 

I'm already full of ideas about how to hurt such a set-up (I'd say width naturally but we know my thoughts on wide play by now!!), but also posing me a great deal of thought with regard to stopping them - 9 of their 11 would walk into my team ability wise and that midfield 4 are all 85+ rated by my scouts so they have potential to do some serious damage on the counter - luckily as I'm in first with a very decent lead (9 points), the pressure and onus is on them to go for the win!

Long story short anyway, very happy with this type of curveball being thrown, love it when the opposition have their own identity and seem to play in unique ways - I know that even the 4321's can set up differently, but still nice to see some proper variation, would love to know why they've chosen this particular setup - do their scouts think we're weak to it/central play etc but obviously i'll never know that!

Don't know if this is new in the beta or not, but regardless, like it a lot! :)

 

Edited by optimusprimal82

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4, nearly 5, Prem teams IRL average over 2 goals scored a game. Not 1 team is close to this in the beta. 

The lower leagues are a similar story to a lesser extent (less teams in real life average 2 goals as unsurprisingly they don't possess the attacking prowess  but nonetheless most divisions have 1 or 2 teams capable of scoring at such a rate, no-one is close). 

 

Probably just more evidence of the attacking deficiencies in the game but I hope posts like @ajw10's are taken seriously. Even prior to installing the beta the goals were low. 

I holidayed through as I didn't want to commit to a save as I was worried it was going to be this bad so I didn't manage any of the teams. 

 

Screenshot (382).png

Edited by Had_Enough

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1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

@optimusprimal82 nice report :)

Finally ManCity is ManCity, in my FM18 they are didn't play in Eurocups :D 

 

Thanks - Sadly for Man City, my 'monstrosity' was bigger than theirs, although unsurprisingly Mbappe still managed to get his obligatory goal against me - my 'superstar' DC slipped on the ball giving him a 1v1! :D 

image.thumb.png.8f1a1d5feaa445bb5281d635a0ad694c.png

image.thumb.png.d323b75a99a2819fcd87536f365d1a4e.png

Enjoyed that - was a really close/tough match... with way too many crosses (had to tie it back to the beta thread/make it relevant somehow)! :) 

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7 минут назад, optimusprimal82 сказал:

Thanks - Sadly for Man City, my 'monstrosity' was bigger than theirs, although unsurprisingly Mbappe still managed to get his obligatory goal against me - my 'superstar' DC slipped on the ball giving him a 1v1! :D 

 

Dude I look at your formation... Are you genius or idiot? :D

17 минут назад, optimusprimal82 сказал:

Enjoyed that - was a really close/tough match...

Yes me too. Its more like coaches duel and football chess in FM19. Hope it will rising in future FMs

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Can't figure it out how he got anything from that game with such formation, let alone winning it? Is that a bug?

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2 часа назад, russell9 сказал:

Will there be any ME updates for public beta before 19.30 officially release?

no offense, just a joke :D

Спойлер

tenor.gif

In fact SI answered a lot of times, they can't give a 100% information until work in progress. 

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18 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Can't figure it out how he got anything from that game with such formation, let alone winning it? Is that a bug?

Nope, it's just easy to beat clueless AI.

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17 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Can't figure it out how he got anything from that game with such formation, let alone winning it? Is that a bug?

It is almost certainly an exploit of the defensive width thing - all my testing led me to try the weird back three; gives me the attacking of full backs and using regroup as opposed to counter-press they get back when we lose possession and with narrow defensive width they revert almost to a back 3, leaving me with an additional man i can use upfield. The three (should) take care of the striker (although MBappe is pretty hard to stop), the 2 WM's take care of the wing backs, the STC/AM are offset because i think the channel movement is dodgy and offsets them nicely against the AI back 3, and then it's a battle of the midfield. Their midfield is - on screen - better than mine, but a Mezzala/Carrilero partnership in MC can work wonders in the right setup/with the right support. I wouldn't normally go for things this bizarre/unrealistic and I know it wouldn't work for a lot of matches, but some of the issues - namely the bus/wingers i can't control - led me to try some off the cuff things with great results in specific circumstances, and if you think of formations as a floating point rather than static, it's not all that far from a 442/352? Won't say any more lest we turn this into a tactics page when it should/I really want it to focus on the beta - will leave it by saying i'm not the only one though who's found some radical solutions though! :D 

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24 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

Nope, it's just easy to beat clueless AI.

There's one centre back against Mbappe and he can't take advantage of it?

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On 23/02/2019 at 15:28, optimusprimal82 said:

Disclaimer: This could well be down to my tactics - but at the same time i've tested this particular tactic set extensively in 19.2.2/19.2.3 and never come across this;

Anyone noticed their CMs playing the ball out of play an awful lot when passing to wide players in 1927? This isn't a "if the cat had kittens it'd be 1927's fault" scenario, just never noticed it before today and am on a third tactic set I've been testing and it's been a trend all the way through so want to ascertain if it's an engine thing,, or a common (between tactics) thing i'm doing that maybe doesn't work as well now etc - current match i'm testing as example, just 30 minutes played;

image.thumb.png.ac7958e7876d6a0a8fbf31c4e042f764.png

Possession and passing accuracy look great, football we're playing is really good, lots of movement, finding each other well, but then inexplicably every so often, when under little to no pressure;

image.thumb.png.86b2af9b75b1d73dc8aa0cdab660980b.png

13 & 16 are two of my best passers too... Not after an in-depth tactical discussion (yet) - this isn't the place for that - I can dig through or head over to the relevant forum if it is something that's no longer working (but as i say, i've been using this one for a while and it isn't a trend in the stats from previous years) specifically for me, but if anyone else has noticed it then please by all means speak up so i don't spend the next few hours ignoring the real life football trying to solve this little puzzle! :D

Yeah, I've noticed an increase in those out-of-play passes as well. The pass itself usually looks ok, but it seems to me like the wide player isn't following through on his forward run, and thus not reaching the ball. 

That in itself isn't unrealistic, though; it happens in every football match. It just seems to occur more often in this version of the match engine than previously.  

EDIT: I just had another one where it was definitely the passer's fault, and the wide player had no chance of reaching it. 

Edited by Liquid Cool

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2 horas atrás, Liquid Cool disse:

Yeah, I've noticed an increase in those out-of-play passes as well. The pass itself usually looks ok, but it seems to me like the wide player isn't following through on his forward run, and thus not reaching the ball. 

That in itself isn't unrealistic, though; it happens in every football match. It just seems to occur more often in this version of the match engine than previously.  

EDIT: I just had another one where it was definitely the passer's fault, and the wide player had no chance of reaching it. 

Using short passing and lower tempo does not solve it?

Is the passing done with the player under pressure?

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3 hours ago, apvmoreira said:

Using short passing and lower tempo does not solve it?

Is the passing done with the player under pressure?

Here's an example with short passing and low tempo.

EDIT: There's nothing wrong with an example like this in an isolated sense. But like I said, my impression is that these situations happen more often than in earlier versions of the match engine. I haven't done enough analysis to determine whether it's a systemic problem. 

 

widepass01.thumb.jpg.a3054cab71b54543e3c41b1a65df8e0c.jpg

widepass02.jpg

widepass03.jpg

Edited by Liquid Cool

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38 minutos atrás, Liquid Cool disse:

Here's an example with short passing and low tempo.

EDIT: There's nothing wrong with an example like this in an isolated sense. But like I said, my impression is that these situations happen more often than in earlier versions of the match engine. I haven't done enough analysis to determine whether it's a systemic problem. 

 

widepass01.thumb.jpg.a3054cab71b54543e3c41b1a65df8e0c.jpg

widepass02.jpg

widepass03.jpg

So, the idea to counter this should put the FBs in support, so they would not try and go to the touchline and not using overlap. But underlap might work better now. Have you tried it?

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51 minutes ago, apvmoreira said:

So, the idea to counter this should put the FBs in support, so they would not try and go to the touchline and not using overlap. But underlap might work better now. Have you tried it?

But I don't want him to underlap. I want him to go to the touchline and cross ;)

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10 hours ago, Mitja said:

There's one centre back against Mbappe and he can't take advantage of it?

No he plays narrow so and regroup so Mbappe doesnt get a one v one against the CB unless its on the counter

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2 hours ago, apvmoreira said:

So, the idea to counter this should put the FBs in support, so they would not try and go to the touchline and not using overlap. But underlap might work better now. Have you tried it?

This isn't really the place for a discussion on tactics and tweaking - Liquids posted because of a perceived (& i say perceived because right now it’s still our opinion/open to interpretation/counter) issue with the beta. It's an issue I ran into & I've tried many things to combat it; not saying it's impossible to resolve (and i don't believe eradicating it completely is necessary, players do misplace passes), but across the many (many) hours testing, trying to get wide play working properly, this was a consistent theme across a variety of passing types, tempos, formations and variants; you can read more about it here but feel free to try some of the suggestions you're tossing around and see for yourself - sure if you can find a way of solving the problem along with the wide play you'll have a lot of grateful people! :)

Liquids examples aren't always the worst of it either, passing maps like this can all too easily become the norm;

image.thumb.png.8e4f6a196385b96ea779b2b5dd00f02f.png

Edited by optimusprimal82

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1 hour ago, Amarante said:

No he plays narrow so and regroup so Mbappe doesnt get a one v one against the CB unless its on the counter

Yep, the devil was in the detail - good catch! :)

As the opposition approach the attacking third - as we saw in my testing - my defence narrows to a huge degree, essentially turning the two FB's into DC's. When we regain possession they immediately push wide and up the pitch to support the wide midfielders. If the opposition are attacking/very strong then they can obviously take massive advantage of this, but as I say in my original post this is a very specific tactic for when battling the most defensive of teams - the only reason I even thought to try it against City is their odd wingerless formation and the fact they were playing 'defensively, at least to start!

My DC is pretty awesome, but even then, the pressure of playing against Mbappe all game obviously got to him as it was his slip that allowed the speedy git a clean run on goal for an equaliser - luckily high determination meant my stubborn guys didn't take kindly and fought back as they have so many times!

Now back to all things Beta! :) 

Edited by optimusprimal82

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Just had a read through to see if I could see an answer to my question before I posted. So many negative, unhelpful posts in a single thread :seagull: 

 

Anyway, I saw the winter database is currently not included, but is player ability changes included in this?

 

For example, I'd say David Brooks needed a boost in CA, is this kind of change included yet?

 

 

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No - there is no changes to attributes with the Beta update - this will come with the official patch when it is released

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The keepers are coming out of the box more often, but even with a man besides them (corners), they are not challenged...

Edited by apvmoreira

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8 dakika önce, Louisking1992 said:

Any ideas when the update is due to come out ? 

%80 this Friday

%20 tomorrow   IMO

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56 minutes ago, akinozcan said:

%80 this Friday

%20 tomorrow   IMO

Friday. Match the first per usual lads. 

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I think it's supposed to represent a mix up where the defender and keeper both leave it for the other to collect.

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23 minutes ago, Balahara said:

I think it's supposed to represent a mix up where the defender and keeper both leave it for the other to collect.

Yeah looks that way to me.  @haffaz77 you can create a thread in the public beta forums with a pkm and we can take a look. Forum is here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/670-public-beta-forum/

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Yeah, that's a miscommunication. Defender is leaving it to the keeper who is coming forward. You can post it in the bugs forum, but that's how it looks.

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On 26/02/2019 at 22:01, rdbayly said:

Nope, it's just easy to beat clueless AI.

So so true. 

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Hi - Curious if beta will continue after winter update has released? I hadnt partake in beta for a bit now but I am quite interested to partake again. 

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Gerade eben schrieb KingBuzzo15:

It's now 00:05 in China. Does that mean the window is shut?

Ukraine is still open until tomorrow.

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Just now, derTuchel said:

Ukraine is still open until tomorrow.

the free transfers are still open :D 

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Is anyone else experiencing a huge number of blocks? I'm getting loads of my crosses blocked and a huge amount of shots blocks. My players will actually wait for the opposition to get in the way before attempting a cross or shot.

Also when i play short corners, my player will often stand still until a defender runs up to him and blocks the cross, If they cross straight away it would cut half of these blocks out. 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

 

Again this kind of stuff as feedback or even as a general comment is completely useless. Why is it easy to beat the AI? What tactics/setup allow you to do so?

The AI will never be as tactically adept as the user - think how many AI managers there are in-game - if every single one had human levels of intelligence our coders would be the best on the planet and the game would run at an absolute crawl :D 

What we need is a game where the AI is competitive and challenging. If there are easy ways around that, let us know and we can investigate why. Thanks. 

I would never use the word never. Admits defeat already :D

Secondly, why does it always come down to the game will become slower if its improved significantly? So the reason why the regen faces are so poor is because SI is worried about slowing the game down? See Out of the Park Baseball. Amazing regen faces on that game. Much more advanced. 

 

Edited by Preveza

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1 minute ago, Preveza said:

I would never use the word never. Admits defeat already and lacks confidence. 

Secondly, why does it always come down to the game will become slower if its improved significantly? So the reason why the regen faces are so poor is because SI is worried about slowing the game down? See Out of the Park Baseball. Amazing regen faces on that game. Much more advanced. 

So you are saying the game at its current state is not competitive enough for the AI? Apparently SI has been improving this area for over a decade, but still not good enough? This isnt my opinion btw. Just re phrasing what you said :D

No I am not saying that. I'm saying that overall we need a game where the AI is competitive and challenging - which we feel we've got currently. If users find a way to make the game 'easy' in legitimate way (so not using say the IGE or reloading saves), if they can provide us with evidence to investigate we'd appreciate it. 

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Posted (edited)
vor 15 Minuten schrieb Preveza:

I would never use the word never. Admits defeat already :D

Secondly, why does it always come down to the game will become slower if its improved significantly? So the reason why the regen faces are so poor is because SI is worried about slowing the game down? See Out of the Park Baseball. Amazing regen faces on that game. Much more advanced. 

 

Because real AI that can challenge humans in games which are a little bit more complex needs complex computations. If SI would do that for every single AI manager in the game, even if they were able to, the game would become unplayably slow.

Besides, there are already frustrated players who find FM too difficult. SI has to find a balance. What's the point if 80% casual players throw the game into the barrel because it's too difficult for them, just so that the 20% pro gamers are satisfied?

Edited by derTuchel

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11 minutes ago, derTuchel said:

Besides, there are already frustrated players who find FM too difficult. 

Not because of AI being competitive tactically or in squad building. Most people complain because of the game being too random (and too easy) this year. Having 20+ shots and not be able to score, for example. Or strikers being non effective. Check tactics forum.

FM17 was much more competitive AI tactics wise. 

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35 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Most people complain because of the game being too random (and too easy) this year. Having 20+ shots and not be able to score, for example. Or strikers being non effective. 

Has this ever been any much different? I'd suggest a Change in target audience (WTF do shot numbers on a spreadsheet matter?), but then the game may commercially implode. :D 

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vor 36 Minuten schrieb Mitja:

Not because of AI being competitive tactically or in squad building. Most people complain because of the game being too random (and too easy) this year. Having 20+ shots and not be able to score, for example. Or strikers being non effective. Check tactics forum.

FM17 was much more competitive AI tactics wise. 

Yeah, but that supports what I'm saying. Now imagine that additionaly, the AI would be able to really understand in detail what happens during a match and tactically lever the player or act really smart on the transfer market and aggressively steal the player's top stars. Then even more players would be frustrated.

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44 minutes ago, derTuchel said:

Yeah, but that supports what I'm saying. Now imagine that additionaly, the AI would be able to really understand in detail what happens during a match and tactically lever the player or act really smart on the transfer market and aggressively steal the player's top stars. Then even more players would be frustrated.

Most people complain for opposite reasons, AI being clueless especially in squad building which makes long term saves boring in long term. 

As for AI fm19 tactics and me, there's not much that needs to be added right now. All has been said.

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Posted (edited)

AI never done realistic Transfers. Just take a look what kind of transfers Bayern does in the Game. Its ridiculous. A Club like Bayern does not sell their superstars easily. But in FM all the world class players leaving the club like Bayern is a training club .  And then they are buying average players like Hector from Cologne ... 

Edited by haffaz77

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