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4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I'd love more PIs unlocked, the flip side however are the AI manager's capabilities.  We already have all the advantages over the AI, unlocking PIs would give us another one as we can be far more creative with their use than the AI.

However in my opinion there's certainly scope to relax some of the set PIs in certain areas.  Possibly too many roles running into channels for example, or perhaps a more neutral striker role in a similar vein to the DM/CM/WM/AM roles perhaps.

I feel there are definitely too many Forward roles with moves into channels locked. Think the AI would also benefit from a role that didn't have it locked too. 

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Yeah 'balance' is the one sticking point I keep coming back to when I think about why they were locked off and what would stop them from being unlocked - have we ever been told why they went down that route? Do we know if it was it to make developing the ME (I hesitate to use this word, obviously i mean it relatively) easier in the long term, or perhaps to make the game more approachable for newcomers? I keep clinging to the fact that obviously we used to have carte blanche in terms of full sliders/controls over everything so we know it's possible, but then am also not so naive as to think they didn't have a good reason for making the changes they have...

A compromise maybe of some of the PI's being unlocked would certainly work/be gratefully received! I'd also love a 'role creator' too if we're being greedy - imagine designing a role that the AI starts to imitate like the IWB's? Let's maybe walk first before we run though!  :D 

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Roles were locked to put AI on same level as human managers. Without it humans have too much advantage over AI. 

While we're at this I'd like less roles with run with ball often. And less roles in general, I'm not sure if are there so many different fullbacks roles irl for example? 

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So the next step on this branch is the AI machine learning from watching so many of us play and then unleashing all hell on us? :D

It's run with and cross ball for me that are the two biggest ones, the direction the player runs too (runs wide/runs inside) can make them every restrictive, but if the other two are unlocked that'd probably work? Agree that the move into channels/free roams are a little too liberally spread around too? The alternative to unlocking some of them may be to create more roles, although naming might start to become fun!

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Hoping that we get a more neutral role for the attacking midfield wide players. We have Wide Midfielder in the ML/MR slot. Hoping we can get the same for the Attacking midfielder slot. 

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Disclaimer: This could well be down to my tactics - but at the same time i've tested this particular tactic set extensively in 19.2.2/19.2.3 and never come across this;

Anyone noticed their CMs playing the ball out of play an awful lot when passing to wide players in 1927? This isn't a "if the cat had kittens it'd be 1927's fault" scenario, just never noticed it before today and am on a third tactic set I've been testing and it's been a trend all the way through so want to ascertain if it's an engine thing,, or a common (between tactics) thing i'm doing that maybe doesn't work as well now etc - current match i'm testing as example, just 30 minutes played;

image.thumb.png.ac7958e7876d6a0a8fbf31c4e042f764.png

Possession and passing accuracy look great, football we're playing is really good, lots of movement, finding each other well, but then inexplicably every so often, when under little to no pressure;

image.thumb.png.86b2af9b75b1d73dc8aa0cdab660980b.png

13 & 16 are two of my best passers too... Not after an in-depth tactical discussion (yet) - this isn't the place for that - I can dig through or head over to the relevant forum if it is something that's no longer working (but as i say, i've been using this one for a while and it isn't a trend in the stats from previous years) specifically for me, but if anyone else has noticed it then please by all means speak up so i don't spend the next few hours ignoring the real life football trying to solve this little puzzle! :D

EDIT: >Sigh< Has anyone had this happen in the beta too? After leaving the analysis screens the 3d game is now just a black screen;

image.thumb.png.53e35d564f3a2ded00cc7f7009503afb.png

Changing between the cameras does nothing sadly, although the 2d does work when i swap to it. Switching back from full game to highlights doesn't fix it either. Off to the bugs page i go - shout up quick if you've had it/raised it and I can add mine in to save multiples/duplicates... It's getting it's own back isn't it? :(

Edited by optimusprimal82

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I'm seeing far too many shots and far too many penalties. Goals seem to exclusively come from set pieces.

I thought a small step had been taken forward with this Beta, but the more I play the worse it becomes.

Edited by ajw10

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59 minutes ago, Bothan Spy said:

Omg! You can't opt out of the beta once you're in! The game became corrupted! Just tried...

you can't load a save game from 19.3 with the live version. It's normal since beta is a higher version. It's always good to make a backup.

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Just now, ianscousemac said:

Do people really think the ME is so bad?  I just can't see it.

Watch a game or two on Comprehensive Highlights and you'll see players consistently **** the ball away for no good reason as soon as they get it in the wide areas of the attacking 3rd; regardless of TIs, PIs, ratio of teammates/opponents in the box, etc, players are hard-wired to yeet the ball into the box ASAP when they get it wide. What @optimusprimal82 said in his excellent post is spot-on accurate, and his post in the Beta forum sheds light on other, arguably even more worrying, stuff about the movement of wide players.

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3 hours ago, Bothan Spy said:

Omg! You can't opt out of the beta once you're in! The game became corrupted! Just tried...

This is clearly stated as such via the opening post of this thread. 

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8 hours ago, ianscousemac said:

Do people really think the ME is so bad?  I just can't see it.

Same here.

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1 hour ago, Viking said:

Same here.

It depends on how you play the game.

Most of the people just want to win in the game. They just download the tactics or just design a tactic in which they think is work. Putting all the best player in the pitch. pressing key highlight or even instant match result button and waiting for the win message. They don't read or watch the content of the match. So they dont know what has happened in the match.

 

Edited by keithfc

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1 hour ago, keithfc said:

It depends on how you play the game.

Most of the people just want to win in the game. They just download the tactics or just design a tactic in which they think is work. Putting all the best player in the pitch. pressing key highlight or even instant match result button and waiting for the win message. They don't read or watch the content of the match. So they dont know what has happened in the match.

 

Many YouTube players admit the game's easier this year from what I've seen. ;)

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1 hour ago, keithfc said:

It depends on how you play the game.

Most of the people just want to win in the game. They just download the tactics or just design a tactic in which they think is work. Putting all the best player in the pitch. pressing key highlight or even instant match result button and waiting for the win message. They don't read or watch the content of the match. So they dont know what has happened in the match.

 

Yeah, well. I play the game with extended highlights and still don't see what makes the ME so horrendous some people think it is.

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1 hour ago, Viking said:

Yeah, well. I play the game with extended highlights and still don't see what makes the ME so horrendous some people think it is.

There's people on these forums every year who view the ME as 'any number from 1 to 10/10' with those at the extreme ends - like with most things - often being the most vocal. I personally think it's far from horrendous, but at the same time there are issues apparent in the beta that are compounding together to make certain aspects of the ME frustrating. The whole point of the BETA is for us to provide feedback on issues and the like, sadly nonconstructive criticism comes as a side-order such is the world we live in but it's easy enough to shut out and irrespective, if you don't see any issues then that's fine; doesn't make you wrong, doesn't make those (like me) who do see perceived faults as right... Far too often this thread - and all those that have come before it year on year - will descend into a debate which is ultimately futile; best we can do is present our thoughts, support them with evidence and let the people that make the decisions decide what needs changing. 

If you're happy with it then absolutely nobody should be trying to convince you otherwise - ignore them and just keep on enjoying it! :) Even with the few issues I've found in the beta I've still got a staggering amount of time and enjoyment out of the game overall, am still playing it now and have no doubt I will in the future - I love the game, but doesn't mean I can't see a few warts on it's hairy bottom? A lot of the more specific issues don't present themselves in every game anyway, they're situational and all added together they can compound & create a bigger headache. The main example being teams with high reputation in their current division; other teams - quite rightly - come to spoil your fun by parking a big fat double decker on the field, but whereas that should be a difficult obstacle to overcome, it's an incredibly difficult obstacle to overcome because of perceived (my opinion) issues such as poor player movement/strange player behaviour (especially in wide players which i've raised separately) and the lack of (slightly) more granular control in the tactics creator to try and combat the issues. If I were back as an underdog in the Vanarama, I doubt I'd notice anywhere near as much because I wouldn't expect an expansive passing game, but more importantly, a lot of the issues can be negated more easily when teams attack you/play a more open game - by the time you're at the relative reputation for your division where you will start seeing buses - outside of the top divisions - you get promoted and reputation is back to being relatively low so you face attacking teams again. The crux is that the defensive aspect of the game has been majorly improved this year and it seems that the attacking side is lagging just a little behind at present; even the managers of the top six AI sides are struggling against ultra defensive teams to an unfortunately game affecting degree (and again, that's opinion, not fact) for a lot of people - wiping the floor with other top/mid-table sides and then scraping past bottom feeders; Southampton, Stoke, Leicester, Newcastle, Brighton & Blackburn are the most feared teams in my current save as when they face the top 6 (and me/FC United) they wheel out monstrosities like this which with the current dearth of attacking player movement and greater tactical control makes life incredibly difficult;

image.thumb.png.ae6a367c53927a786d3899273f82dce7.pngimage.png.c556e653785e737179ecd948db17c75f.png

I go into it in much more detail above so i won't write it all out again, but in past versions we had the ability to fine tune things to get around obstacles such as this - in order to be fair to the AI who's always been at a disadvantage as we can create bizarre tactical solutions, we've had our hands tied a little with PI's being forced onto roles and the like, with the changes in this beta it means both human and AI teams are struggling to overcome the odds etc.

Edited by optimusprimal82

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42 minutes ago, optimusprimal82 said:

I go into it in much more detail above so i won't write it all out again, but in past versions we had the ability to fine tune things to get around obstacles such as this - in order to be fair to the AI who's always been at a disadvantage as we can create bizarre tactical solutions, we've had our hands tied a little with PI's being forced onto roles and the like, with the changes in this beta it means both human and AI teams are struggling to overcome the odds etc.

I really don't think unlocking PIs would help. You identified all of the most obvious issues like too many crosses and shots, blocked, too many fouls and tackles, poor decision making and movement, too defensive AI, etc. These are all ME issues,  it has nothing to do with PIs. 

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3 hours ago, Mitja said:

Many YouTube players admit the game's easier this year from what I've seen. ;)

Pointing out ME has problem does not mean he can not win the game.

Some bug reporter has written a lot of deep analysis to point out the problem of ME.  If they can write the analysis, dont you think they cant win the game easily? 

Edited by keithfc

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2 hours ago, Viking said:

Yeah, well. I play the game with extended highlights and still don't see what makes the ME so horrendous some people think it is.

They watch comprehensive highlight, even full match detail.... man

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5 hours ago, keithfc said:

It depends on how you play the game.

Most of the people just want to win in the game. They just download the tactics or just design a tactic in which they think is work. Putting all the best player in the pitch. pressing key highlight or even instant match result button and waiting for the win message. They don't read or watch the content of the match. So they dont know what has happened in the match.

 

That's naive to think they do that. There's alot of people that have provided evidence again and again that the SI are happy to take and acknowledge that things aren't right. 

 

3 hours ago, Viking said:

Yeah, well. I play the game with extended highlights and still don't see what makes the ME so horrendous some people think it is.

Have you even looked at it never mind just saying it. Analyse everything in it and you'll find a lot of long shots, bad passing, movement that is poor slightly better in the update... etc. Once some basics aren't working you really think people won't notice? I've played FM for a long long time and to this one I've had to adapt more so than ever which isn't an issue but there are so many issues that needs addressed as they're big game changers and not slightly small bugs that people would overlook. If you looked at 19.2 the amount of major bugs that were sent were alot and the SI had to work hard which is why they've said they're continuously working on it. 

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1 hour ago, Mitja said:

I really don't think unlocking PIs would help. You identified all of the most obvious issues like too many crosses and shots, blocked, too many fouls and tackles, poor decision making and movement, too defensive AI, etc. These are all ME issues,  it has nothing to do with PIs. 

I disagree - but really, who cares - what we think is responsible largely means squat? I reckon with an AMR/AML free from restrictive PI's I could do a lot more to circumvent the issues, you obviously don't - we could sit debating this for the next few hours and we'd be nowhere - time better spent either playing the game or working with the guys and girls to highlight specific issues & suggest tangible improvements I reckon :)

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11 minutes ago, optimusprimal82 said:

I disagree - but really, who cares - what we think is responsible largely means squat? I reckon with an AMR/AML free from restrictive PI's I could do a lot more to circumvent the issues, you obviously don't - we could sit debating this for the next few hours and we'd be nowhere - time better spent either playing the game or working with the guys and girls to highlight specific issues & suggest tangible improvements I reckon :)

I certainly agree with the AMR/AML situation, in that the propensity for players in these positions to dribble into dead ends (and getting tackled) is far too high. Changing my IF into a advanced playmaker has yielded much better results in terms of build up play and overlapping; however, these players require a very specific attribute spread. There is an abundance of AMR/AML headless chickens with poor intelligence in the database - Many of which can only play in these slots.

The aforementioned AI mentality switching to bus parking when your rep rises, means these players become redundant; as the space they exploited en route to successive promotions simply evaporates.

Edited by rdbayly

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Reading the comments here really disappoints me. The game has so much potential, shame it's being let down by the most important part. Also @Amarante I remember you being one of the main driving forces on here trying to get things changed, and now you've become apologetic to process? 

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55 minutes ago, BigV said:

That's naive to think they do that. There's alot of people that have provided evidence again and again that the SI are happy to take and acknowledge that things aren't right. 

 

Have you even looked at it never mind just saying it. Analyse everything in it and you'll find a lot of long shots, bad passing, movement that is poor slightly better in the update... etc. Once some basics aren't working you really think people won't notice? I've played FM for a long long time and to this one I've had to adapt more so than ever which isn't an issue but there are so many issues that needs addressed as they're big game changers and not slightly small bugs that people would overlook. If you looked at 19.2 the amount of major bugs that were sent were alot and the SI had to work hard which is why they've said they're continuously working on it. 

Ok everyone is entitled to their opinions here, and this is not meant to be a big thread where people shove their opinions down everyone's throats. You may feel one way, someone else may have a different point of view.  I would advise everyone to start tolerating each others opinions here. If people are enjoying the game for whatever reason, that's fine, if people are not finding their game enjoyable then that's fine as well.

To each their own, and for those who feel that the game needs to be improved, then great, submit the pkms, open a bug report. If Si feel that its valid they will do something about it. 

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2 hours ago, BigV said:

That's naive to think they do that. There's alot of people that have provided evidence again and again that the SI are happy to take and acknowledge that things aren't right. 

 

 

It looks like you quote the wrong post or misunderstanding my word............

Please take a look which post i have replied and quoted. Thank you.

 

 

Edited by keithfc

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On 19/02/2019 at 18:21, haffaz77 said:

New Database = When 19.3 comes out OFFICIALLY = NO BETA

I hope you guys are still working on the ME . These blocked crosses are terrible to say the least. Billions of Corners and blocked shots and crosses . Painful and terrible to watch ;(

Yep, wide players with high stats for dribbling, crossing, vision and technique yet they're incapable of going past a defender but just simply kick it against their legs and hope for the best, then just stand there transfixed as the ball rolls right past them from the blocked cross.

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12 hours ago, craiigman said:

Reading the comments here really disappoints me. The game has so much potential, shame it's being let down by the most important part. Also @Amarante I remember you being one of the main driving forces on here trying to get things changed, and now you've become apologetic to process? 

Not apologetic my friend but whats the point? Ive spent hours along with others analyzing and debugging it became clear that the problems cant be fixed in this version, so i decided to focus on what can be fixed. 

Sometimes you have to compromise and know when to fight and when to give in and when to seek an alternative path. SI has stated that FM20 they will take a deeper look into attacking movement as all the problems cant be fixed for the 19.3 patch so we just have to move on. 

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12 hours ago, Kune said:

ME from beta version of FM 19 was the best. I don't know why they changed that ME. 

I also tend to agree. Too bad that the beta version has some issues with league rules if it didn't i would have still played that.

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13 hours ago, ajw10 said:

There's definitely a lack of goals.

Premier League_ Matches Fixtures & Results.png

I guess this ME would have been perfect if it was done in 1970's Italy.

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8 hours ago, Amarante said:

SI has stated that FM20 they will take a deeper look into attacking movement as all the problems cant be fixed for the 19.3 patch so we just have to move on.

But what issues were fixed for now? That's the main problem.

MCs standing too close, what else?

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Players make bad runs, run down cul de sacs and can have generally bad movement in real life, i don't understand why that should not be represented in the match engine.

 

This game is a simulation after all.

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10 minutes ago, Os said:

Players make bad runs, run down cul de sacs and can have generally bad movement in real life, i don't understand why that should not be represented in the match engine.

 

This game is a simulation after all.

Players in the current beta ME aren't making bad runs or running down cul-de-sacs because generally, when the ball gets into the attacking third, they're not making any runs at all. People aren't complaining about the quality of runs, they're complaining about the absence of runs.

And for the record, the current beta ME would have Pep's Barcelona crossing into an empty box 50 times per game. Not really much of a simulation by my reckoning.

Edited by Sampsiceramos

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8 minutes ago, Os said:

Players make bad runs, run down cul de sacs and can have generally bad movement in real life, i don't understand why that should not be represented in the match engine.

 

This game is a simulation after all.

Except those that are IF or IW usually play alot wider and come inside and not all of a sudden go into the box when your wingback or fullback are in attacking positions of the final third. Plus they dribble quite often which doesn't seem that apparent in 19 or at least statistically shown on the stats board during matches.  

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18 hours ago, Kune said:

ME from beta version of FM 19 was the best. I don't know why they changed that ME. 

Strikers were trash there as well. But apart from that you are right. And the first version of the game. 19.1 was as well pretty good. It was the 19.2 with hundreds of long shots and free kicks that killed the game. 

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13 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

Strikers were trash there as well. But apart from that you are right. And the first version of the game. 19.1 was as well pretty good. It was the 19.2 with hundreds of long shots and free kicks that killed the game. 

19.1 had huge flaws with winning games. At home was decent, away you almost draw/lost with the odd win regardless of who your team was in whichever league. At least with 19.2 those long shots worked in favour more often than not. The beta version was great in terms of ME, the strikers were decent but the ones that support deeper like F9 or deeplying forward didn't do what the role suggested. The crossing was wayward and IF's played like wingers or at least did when trying to create imo. This MIGHT have caused the ME to change drastically once they tried tampering with it or they must've decided it was too easy and way too much so they toned stuff down which effected other areas because of the coding etc. 

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1 hour ago, BigV said:

19.1 had huge flaws with winning games. At home was decent, away you almost draw/lost with the odd win regardless of who your team was in whichever league. At least with 19.2 those long shots worked in favour more often than not. The beta version was great in terms of ME, the strikers were decent but the ones that support deeper like F9 or deeplying forward didn't do what the role suggested. The crossing was wayward and IF's played like wingers or at least did when trying to create imo. This MIGHT have caused the ME to change drastically once they tried tampering with it or they must've decided it was too easy and way too much so they toned stuff down which effected other areas because of the coding etc. 

Why do people always say that oh winning away games were draw/lost? Your tactics were just bad. In 19.1 using my Salford city save i didn't loose away from home till the season was almost done.

RB Liepzig i only lost one match all season. 

 

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One thing to bear in mind with the free kicks; I myself have been critical of how many direct free kicks I seem to concede in 19, but as with my point about penalties in GD a few weeks back (I always thought/felt i missed them, turns out I miss approx 20% and my takers are actually very average at them despite being great strikers), perception is different to reality & if you look at the actual numbers they're not all that high, especially when you consider the amount of free-kicks conceded? I touch on this in my post way above, that the number of fouls per game is high compared to real life statistics, but how many games in real life have a 'turned up to 11 gegenpress style counter-press' active for the full 90 minutes like in so many FM games?

I still think - and this is obviously just opinion/perception as I have no experiential or little statistical evidence to back this up - that counter-press is causing too many fouls, Liverpool may be one of the most famous/best exponents of the tactic but their foul count is not significantly higher than other teams? It may (and this is complete conjecture) be a way to dissuade from overly using it as at times it feels somewhat OP, especially when paired with hard tackling? Luckily the beta seems a bit stricter and i've found I've had to reduce the CP intensity to calm the cards down a little, so imagine the AI is doing the same? Also noticed that I was being counter attacked a lot more by teams which I've since eliminated by removing CP and replacing with regroup, something I was used to doing when closing out games/against superior opposition, but now also feels like a plausible alternative in general play.

image.thumb.png.ee3fd4317154e7be3d75810249eb9dc5.png

image.thumb.png.f92cd33d6c759ece9bbe985e9dcfb2c7.png

Up with the relegation battlers in terms of fouls conceded - largely due to hard tackling and CP combo - yet not conceded a direct free kick in the league all season (30 games gone)

Edited by optimusprimal82

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1 minute ago, optimusprimal82 said:

One thing to bear in mind with the free kicks; I myself have been critical of how many direct free kicks I seem to concede in 19, but as with my point about penalties in GD a few weeks back (I always thought/felt i missed them, turns out I miss approx 20%), if you look at the actual numbers they're not all that high, especially when you consider the amount of free-kicks conceded? I touch on this in my post way above, that the number of fouls per game is high compared to real life statistics, but how many games in real life have a 'turned up to 11 gegenpress style counter-press' active for the full 90 minutes like in so many FM games?

I still think - and this is obviously just opinion/perception as I have no experiential or little statistical evidence to back this up - that counter-press is causing too many fouls, Liverpool may be one of the most famous/best exponents of the tactic but their foul count is not significantly higher than other teams? It may (and this is complete conjecture) be a way to dissuade from overly using it as at times it feels somewhat OP, especially when paired with hard tackling? Luckily the beta seems a bit stricter and i've found I've had to reduce the CP intensity to calm the cards down a little, so imagine the AI is doing the same? Also noticed that I was being counter attacked a lot more by teams which I've since eliminated by removing CP and replacing with regroup, something I was used to doing when closing out games/against superior opposition, but now also feels like a plausible alternative.

 I would add two things:

1) Liverpool never did it for 90 minutes non stop last season. It's simply too exhausting (another thing, team should definitely be exhausted trying to do this and I'd definitely want to see increased muscle injuries over a season from teams doing this)

2) Liverpool haven't really done it this season anywhere near as much, been much more of a middle press. 

It's a tricky one to work out if it is giving away too many as you'd almost have to compare your high intensity phases vs theirs. Or maybe looking at the individual fouls themselves and seeing if that are unrealistic. Both very time consuming ways mind. 

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2 hours ago, Amarante said:

Why do people always say that oh winning away games were draw/lost? Your tactics were just bad. In 19.1 using my Salford city save i didn't loose away from home till the season was almost done.

RB Liepzig i only lost one match all season. 

 

I'd say that's quite personal to your game and maybe overall but within the forum (all be it minor apparently) alot was said about the home and away games. I can say some of my tactics were at fault but as I grew into the game regardless of what my tactic was that I still use and has got me to win the EPL unbeaten (PB) it was still hindered. I specifically remember a person who analysed his whole season and put it in the forums and even the SI acknowledged it and reason 12.2.2 grew to what it is now. Don't get me wrong 19.2.2 isn't perfect by any means and stopped me playing for a while but it was still better than 19.1 imho. 

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This looks pretty wrong to me, the IF-S is isolated, the WB-A isn't supporting him at all, when the IF crosses the ball the WB is actually nowhere to be seen. you compare that to real life and look what happens when Iwobi has the ball, Kolasinac is always overlapping him and actually fairly close by offering support. I Even have overlap left side too to make him slightly more aggressive, I've seen this on many occasions now so decided to log the issue with you guys as its pretty frustrating not seeing any kind of support.

 

This happened just before the second goal in game, makes it easier for you when looking for it.  

2019-02-25_19-17-56.jpg

Vallecano v Valladolid.pkm

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