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EPL dominating the european cups??

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9 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

It's because English youngsters often come up through the lower leagues which is win at all costs. They focus on strength and pragmatism while other countries have lower divisions focused more on development than winning.

This results in England's youngsters being 'winners' but lacking the skills and technical ability to develop into world class players in the future.

It's the same reason Africa generally does well at youth level. Just different priorities.

I know it is, but that doesn't make it any easier to model.

Personally, I don't really care if little things like this aren't true to life.  If there were artificial ceilings that were trying to put a rigid framework on something subjective and woolly like this, then it'd make the game even more tedious than it sometimes is already.  

Plus, as with anything, it's giving rise to people claiming something happening in the future in a video game is so unrealistic.  You're always going to struggle to reliably argue, from 2018, that the standard of regens in a country in-game in 2022 is unrealistic, for obvious reasons.

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11 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I know it is, but that doesn't make it any easier to model.

Personally, I don't really care if little things like this aren't true to life.  If there were artificial ceilings that were trying to put a rigid framework on something subjective and woolly like this, then it'd make the game even more tedious than it sometimes is already.  

Plus, as with anything, it's giving rise to people claiming something happening in the future in a video game is so unrealistic.  You're always going to struggle to reliably argue, from 2018, that the standard of regens in a country in-game in 2022 is unrealistic, for obvious reasons.

Generally you would just give them a bias toward physical attributes and lower youth rating.

This would result in a slant toward English youngsters who are physically read at a younger age but cut down on the amount of world class players they produce. Like the African countries are now.

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2 hours ago, tajj7 said:

Another thing I will point to is personally I think people massively over rate how good teams like Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, PSG etc. actually are, based on them being flat track bullies most of the time. 

The amount of times these teams get 100 points and 100 goals over the last 10 - 15 years show how poor the leagues they are in actually are.

They are flat track bullies who are barely ever challenged. Whereas the PL, because it distributes the money more, means that all 20 teams put up more of a challenge to the bigger clubs on a regular basis. 

Which is where I find all this X player wouldn't get into X clubs rubbish, I'd flip it the other way, we actually see players come into the PL who highly rated in other leagues who barely make a splash here, look at Emerson for example at Chelsea, in game he is by far Chelsea's best full back obviously rated very highly by the Roma researcher, IRL he can barely get in the team. Naby Keita is rated 'world class' by the game, has not really done much IRL and is being kept out of the Liverpool team by a 33 year old James Milner, Fabinho has barely had a kick, Bakayoko last year is another example.  

There is a huge list of players successful in the European leagues who failed in the Premier League, and yet went back and were successful again.  

So I then find it hilarious that people some of the best players in PL teams wouldn't get into teams like PSG, Barca, Real etc. Last year Spurs reject Paulinho played 49 games for Barcelona in all competitions, and yet he struggled to get into a Spurs team that wasn't even that good back then.  Renato Sanches is making appearances for Bayern Munich this year when he couldn't even get into a relegated Swansea team last year. Krychowiak was a star performer for Sevilla, poor performer for West Brom. 

Examples like that make comments about the likes of Salah, Firminho, De Bruyne, Aguero, etc. not getting into top teams around Europe laughable IMO and not worth the time of day. 

Good players are good players and each club/nation has it's researchers, I see no evidence of bias anywhere. 

 

Emerson seems to be overrated, I agree, especially he practically only had one season in his career where he featured somewhat regularly (at least according to his history page in FM). Dunno if it was due to the assessment by the Roma or Santos researcher, though.

Naby Keita and Fabinho, neither of them had a good season actually by their respective leagues' standard prior to their transfers to Liverpool. Ideally, their CA and attributes spread should've been lowered for this year's summer database, yet that didn't seemed to be the case.

Bakayoko is a weird one. He showed his quality even in the European stage before moving to Chelsea, where it became apparent that he's a very limited player who can only perform well on a specific role. He's arguably struggling even more in the Serie A level than he was in EPL now, for what it is worth.

Paulinho is a case where playing in a lesser standard of competition actually improved him. Looks like he's the sort of player where the lower level of pressure helped him to gradually build his confidence.

Renato Sanches were loaned to Swansea because he was clearly not up to Bayern's minimum standard in the first place, and while he does get some minutes here and there at Bayern this season, for a great majority of them he was unremarkable and never really shown the required intelligence to play for the Bundesliga's standard (which his in game attributes spread fairly indicates, in my opinion).

Krychowiak was a standout in Sevilla, indeed, especially with his physicality when compared to the rest of the league's standard of players. But what West Brom loaned at that time was a player already suffering a significant decline in quality during his time in PSG. Unless if you're arguing that the Ligue 1 is on a higher standard of competition compared to La Liga.

Finally, if you brought up the likes of Salah, Firmino, De Bruyne and Aguero then it seems like they're not struggling that much getting into the supposedly stronger level of competition in EPL. It can be argued that some of them actually find it relatively easier to play in compared to their time in their previous leagues, respectively.

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4 hours ago, Samelders said:

What is this ignorant post? Read back the whole discussion before you make a fool out of yourself. 
 

1. Youth team championships is not a reliable measurement. Our u17 and u21 teams (Holland) won tournaments as well in the past. Did not give us any titles on senior level.. It's kind of cute you really have that much believe in your England squad, while every person from outside your island knows your national team is the definition of underperformance.. This Word Cup you had the easiest draw ever, but then you got asswhiped against the first serious opponent. The English national team is known for dissapointing in every tournament since I started watching football in 1994, a bunch of bottlers that fail in every penalty series. You just can't match the potential of teams such as Brazil, France, Germany, Spain and this generation of Belgium. Nope i really don't see England winning any major tournament any time soon (maybe history proves my point).. 

2. And they have the money to replace them in the coming years. Barca, Real and Bayern are still ahead in reputation and also have a lot of money to spend.. These clubs are just bigger than Englands so called "elite" clubs. Only United, Arsenal and Liverpool have some tradition being mythical and elite. While City, Chelsea and PSG are just bought elite clubs with no history on this level. Tottenham is not even elite, you can tell by their perfomance in Europe. In FM is see Tottenham or Arsenal knock-out teams such as Barcelona and Real in the first years ingame. Do you really think that will happen IRL?? 

3. PL has te money, but there is no guarantee they will surpas La Liga in the future. PL has had the money for years, and looking at the perfomances in the last couple of seasons I don't see such a trend starting yet. And I don't see any PL dominance at all, while in my FM simulations I ALWAYS get PL on top in the Euro Coëfficients, even in the first years ingame. 

1. Oh dear learn to actually read, I said I can see why a lot of high PA players currently, i.e the players in the English youth teams that are the likes of Sancho etc. around IRL might IN GAME translate into success IN GAME as the game tries to predict the future. 

The the rest of your comment just smack of horrific anti-english bias lacking ANY objectivity, which is what most of this thread is routed on and is quickly found out when you look at the facts, like the CAs people are mentioning among other things.

2. Tradition is MEANINGLESS in modern football, jeez wake up.

Modern football is about MONEY, hence why Man City and PSG exist, Neymar says hello, one of the worlds best players, moved from your so called 'elite' club to a lesser club, because of MONEY.

The Premier league has that in spades and in particular the big 6 have the spending power to match or even exceed Real, Barca, etc.  And this means they will compete for them and out bid them for players. The majority of those players will move to someone that pays them the most and might make them win things, that is just as likely to be Man City as it is Bayern or Barca. 

Also your comments are hilarious based on 1. Real Madrid's current form and failings and 2. The fact that Spurs beat Real Madrid last year and drew away. 

'Do you really think that will happen IRL?? ' IT HAPPENED LAST YEAR  

3. The PL surpassed La Liga in the past, so how is this any issue? These things always go in cycles and considering the PLs spending power of 6 clubs matches every other elite club across Europe it;s wholly logical. 

It is simple math.

You have 10-15 super rich clubs across Europe that are able to pay the players the biggest wages and the biggest transfer fees, 6 of these are English clubs.

Not really hard to see why they wouldn't do well, especially in game terms. 

 

4 hours ago, Samelders said:

So Barcelona, Real and Bayern are overrated.. Why are they toying with the English clubs in Europe?

Are they?  Real Madrid lost to Spurs last year in the groups and drew with them away so what are you actually basing this on?

Last year PL had 4 group winners out of the group stages, Barca beat a Chelsea team that were massively underpeforming in the league at the time, Bayern didn't play any English team and Real beat Liverpool in the final thanks to two horrible goalkeeping errors. 

Oh and who scored those goals in the Champions league final? Oh yeah a guy who came through the English youth system :lol:

This years Spurs have lost to Barca that is about it.

'Toying'? You are talking rubbish.  Last year 5 english clubs in the knock out, 2 in the quarters. 1 in the final. OMG so unpredecented that English clubs do well in the champions league! 

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On 04/11/2018 at 15:16, Spurs08 said:

Yeah, the British and Irish teams are all substantailly overrated in FM. Compare the attributes of players at Burnly to a mid-lower table Bundesliga club, or Arsenal to someone like Valencia.

Irish teams are overrated ?

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14 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

1. Oh dear learn to actually read, I said I can see why a lot of high PA players currently, i.e the players in the English youth teams that are the likes of Sancho etc. around IRL might IN GAME translate into success IN GAME as the game tries to predict the future. 

The the rest of your comment just smack of horrific anti-english bias lacking ANY objectivity, which is what most of this thread is routed on and is quickly found out when you look at the facts, like the CAs people are mentioning among other things.

2. Tradition is MEANINGLESS in modern football, jeez wake up.

Modern football is about MONEY, hence why Man City and PSG exist, Neymar says hello, one of the worlds best players, moved from your so called 'elite' club to a lesser club, because of MONEY.

The Premier league has that in spades and in particular the big 6 have the spending power to match or even exceed Real, Barca, etc.  And this means they will compete for them and out bid them for players. The majority of those players will move to someone that pays them the most and might make them win things, that is just as likely to be Man City as it is Bayern or Barca. 

Also your comments are hilarious based on 1. Real Madrid's current form and failings and 2. The fact that Spurs beat Real Madrid last year and drew away. 

'Do you really think that will happen IRL?? ' IT HAPPENED LAST YEAR  

3. The PL surpassed La Liga in the past, so how is this any issue? These things always go in cycles and considering the PLs spending power of 6 clubs matches every other elite club across Europe it;s wholly logical. 

It is simple math.

You have 10-15 super rich clubs across Europe that are able to pay the players the biggest wages and the biggest transfer fees, 6 of these are English clubs.

Not really hard to see why they wouldn't do well, especially in game terms. 

 

Are they?  Real Madrid lost to Spurs last year in the groups and drew with them away so what are you actually basing this on?

Last year PL had 4 group winners out of the group stages, Barca beat a Chelsea team that were massively underpeforming in the league at the time, Bayern didn't play any English team and Real beat Liverpool in the final thanks to two horrible goalkeeping errors. 

Oh and who scored those goals in the Champions league final? Oh yeah a guy who came through the English youth system :lol:

This years Spurs have lost to Barca that is about it.

'Toying'? You are talking rubbish.  Last year 5 english clubs in the knock out, 2 in the quarters. 1 in the final. OMG so unpredecented that English clubs do well in the champions league! 

1. PA of the youth players might be too high (same as for English regens). Fact is in FM England performs and wins a lot of Euro and World Cups. IRL is sheer underperformance of England. 

2. In group stage things don't really matter, do they? I was talking knock-out rounds. 

3. I'm not saying it will not happen. Im saying FM makes it happen every time since I play this game, and it happens EVERY season. So that doesn't reflect reality at all.

Some facts for you, since you seem a little biased about the performance of your English "elite" clubs. Only knock-out stage since group stage don't really matter since best two go through..

 

17-18 (2 english QF of which 1 FINAL) "english elite" vs other elite 0-3

Real-Liverpool 3-1

Sevilla-United 0-0 2-1

Chelsea-Barcelona 1-1 0-3

 

16-17 (1 english QF) "english elite" vs other elite 1-2

Sevilla-Leicester 2-1 0-2

Atlético-Leicester 1-0 1-1

Bayern-Arsenal 5-1 5-1

 

15-16 (1 english SF) "english elite" vs other elite 0-2

Arsenal-Barcelona 0-2 1-3

City-Real 0-0 0-1

 

14-15 (no english QF) "english elite" vs other elite 0-1

City-Barcelona 1-2 0-1

 

13-14 (2 english QF of which 1 SF) "english elite" vs other elite 0-4

City-Barcelona 0-2 1-2

Arsenal-Bayern 0-2 1-1

United-Bayern 1-1 1-3

Atlético-Chelsea 0-0 3-1

 

So let me count.. That's 1-12 against your so called "english elite clubs", if we count Leicester out, it still is 0-11..

And I see a lot of toying.. Especially with Arsenal and Chelsea. Tottenham isn't even really there and also City is quite the dissapointment. 

 

Like I said, the table might turn, but I don't see instant English dominance happening IRL like I see in FM.

 

 

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So @Samelders what exactly is your point. We already know the results, I and others have presented attribute data that show its not laying in the "ratings" of English teams.

The only thing I can assume you're getting at somehow now is that the whole of the FM research needs somehow re-calibrating around 13 matches in 5 years. Clearly that's never going to happen. 

- - -

This is the general discussion board, I can't claim knowledge of how many people from SI read it or in what depth. However, I know with certainty that the bugs forum is the perfect place to raise this. If you are getting clear, repeating anomalies year after year upload your saves and state clearly what you see as the problem (not what you see is the cause for the problem, just what the problem is). 

I've personally had 2 saves go past the 2 season point, in one game Juventus then Barcelona won the CL, in the other Real Madrid kept their run going to 5 consecutive CL titles. In another 1 season save, Juventus won it. France won the Euro 2020 in the only game that got far enough to include that. It's anecdotal, but in my games so far this year, the English haven't been performing at the top level. The only game with an English side winning it was Liverpool in the third season, and their manager was Zidane. 

If you start with a conclusion, and ask who else is getting this then its very, very easy to find the people coming forward who replicate this and it risks becoming an echo chamber. There very well could be issues, but if there is do they lie in the transfer module? Do they lie in the match engine? Is it formations set for AI managers in the data, rather than players? Is it the way in which the game prioritises matches? The chances of someone with no diagnostic tools and anecdotal, first hand experience of playing the game absolutely zeroing in on it are slim to none. 

So take the clear energy you have for wanting the game to be better and more accurate and log these things in the bugs. A game save, a brief outline of what you find difficult to believe/understand and leave it there. Maybe you'll upload 100 saves and 95 of them will be just "that's the way it goes in football" but maybe 5 of them will provide something to work with for improvements. 

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54 minutes ago, hoppo1982 said:

Irish teams are overrated ?

I think so. I fairly regularly see one of them get into the Europa GS first season and do relatively well - I know Dundalk managed it but this is a variety of teams and no other precedent.

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8 minutes ago, santy001 said:

If you start with a conclusion, and ask who else is getting this then its very, very easy to find the people coming forward who replicate this and it risks becoming an echo chamber. There very well could be issues, but if there is do they lie in the transfer module? Do they lie in the match engine? Is it formations set for AI managers in the data, rather than players? Is it the way in which the game prioritises matches? The chances of someone with no diagnostic tools and anecdotal, first hand experience of playing the game absolutely zeroing in on it are slim to none. 

So take the clear energy you have for wanting the game to be better and more accurate and log these things in the bugs. A game save, a brief outline of what you find difficult to believe/understand and leave it there. Maybe you'll upload 100 saves and 95 of them will be just "that's the way it goes in football" but maybe 5 of them will provide something to work with for improvements. 

Agreed, I was just reacting on a post with a lot of falsehoods. I'm not trying to create a negative atmosphere arround the game I really love. Just can't stand biased people who keep telling the game is perfect. At least you are up for a fair discussion. 

 I think the issues are:

1. Too high PA of English youngsters and too many gifted English regens. I know there is something like a score/setting for regen quality per country. It would be interesting to see there scores..

2. FM lacks something like "historic reputation", where clubs like Real, Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Milan and Liverpool score high. Club reputation ingame changes far too fast in my opinion.

3. Issue with players of elite clubs wanting to leave for the premier league (maybe league reputation counts to heavy versus club reputation)

4. Transfersystem isn't really that great. I adressed this for the Dutch League already (very very unrealistic outgoing transfer, far too low transferfees, and incoming transfers with low PA players, while Ajax and PSV always buy talents). English clubs are able to snap up De Ligt, Lozano and De Jong for less than 20 million. 

5. General underperfomance of La Liga in Europe. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, tajj7 said:

1. Oh dear learn to actually read, I said I can see why a lot of high PA players currently, i.e the players in the English youth teams that are the likes of Sancho etc. around IRL might IN GAME translate into success IN GAME as the game tries to predict the future. 

The the rest of your comment just smack of horrific anti-english bias lacking ANY objectivity, which is what most of this thread is routed on and is quickly found out when you look at the facts, like the CAs people are mentioning among other things.

2. Tradition is MEANINGLESS in modern football, jeez wake up.

Modern football is about MONEY, hence why Man City and PSG exist, Neymar says hello, one of the worlds best players, moved from your so called 'elite' club to a lesser club, because of MONEY.

The Premier league has that in spades and in particular the big 6 have the spending power to match or even exceed Real, Barca, etc.  And this means they will compete for them and out bid them for players. The majority of those players will move to someone that pays them the most and might make them win things, that is just as likely to be Man City as it is Bayern or Barca. 

Also your comments are hilarious based on 1. Real Madrid's current form and failings and 2. The fact that Spurs beat Real Madrid last year and drew away. 

'Do you really think that will happen IRL?? ' IT HAPPENED LAST YEAR  

3. The PL surpassed La Liga in the past, so how is this any issue? These things always go in cycles and considering the PLs spending power of 6 clubs matches every other elite club across Europe it;s wholly logical. 

It is simple math.

You have 10-15 super rich clubs across Europe that are able to pay the players the biggest wages and the biggest transfer fees, 6 of these are English clubs.

Not really hard to see why they wouldn't do well, especially in game terms. 

 

Are they?  Real Madrid lost to Spurs last year in the groups and drew with them away so what are you actually basing this on?

Last year PL had 4 group winners out of the group stages, Barca beat a Chelsea team that were massively underpeforming in the league at the time, Bayern didn't play any English team and Real beat Liverpool in the final thanks to two horrible goalkeeping errors. 

Oh and who scored those goals in the Champions league final? Oh yeah a guy who came through the English youth system :lol:

This years Spurs have lost to Barca that is about it.

'Toying'? You are talking rubbish.  Last year 5 english clubs in the knock out, 2 in the quarters. 1 in the final. OMG so unpredecented that English clubs do well in the champions league! 

Wow, what a bunch of angry nonsense.

About the youth system, it's clear it almost never ressembles success in real life, see England itself (and don't come with the 4th place "it's coming home" crap of 2018). Many other sides, like Holland and Brazil reveals way far more talented players and that doesn't mean anything either in the grand stage. Brazil even won the Olympics after the 7x1, and none of the young players of that side are even remembered now.

Heck, ingame freaking Turkey has a higher youth rating than England and since when was the last time their national team did anything?

But then again, I don't personally care that much about it, because it's possible ingame and many seasons in to have some country develop a golden generation (though England does seem to be overhyped in how many later they get but who knows).

"Tradition is meaningless"... no, that sentence was meaningless. You're crazy if you think the tradition of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern and etc are meaningless. It never means they will win games, but on signings and marketing and etc? People WANT to play for those sides and a most would refuse higher offers from other clubs. If Real, Barça, Bayern and etc really wanted some player in the PL, they would get them, but the reverse would be very hard to be true.

I love how you say that is "meaningless" by basing it on a single game on Spurs x Real Madrid.

Between, I wondered was this sixth team that some here are referring to the Big Six. People mostly recognized Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool, then later Chelsea joined the club thanks to some russian billionaire. Then City with more billions and Guardiola. But what is this sixth world class club? What a surprise to see it was some club called Tottenham Hotspurs.

Outside that little island nobody really knew about this club before the World Cup and only because it was the team of Harry Kane (the golden boot with 4 goals from penalties and that no other REAL major club had any interest). How a club with only 5 Champions League participations (failing 3 times in group stage), 60+ years without a Premier League title and almost 40 from the FA Cup is considered a big six not only in England, but as a "world class elite club" on par with Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Milan, Bayern and etc? Just because they drew or won a single game against Real?

And we are the biased ones? :lol:

About Neymar he didn't went to PSG for money, he went there because he didn't want to be Messi's shadow in Barça forever. He wanted to be the main star. If you followed the whole thing in and off the field, everyone who did knew he was only doing so to later move to Real Madrid to get the protagonism later from Cristiano Ronaldo. When the Portuguese moved, and after his disastrous World Cup where even the supports of Real didn't want him, that plan was thrown out of the window and he remained in PSG purely because of that. It's fact even in the French and Spanish press.

If wasn't for Guardiola being in City, some of those players would never sign for them (like Gabriel Jesus). No, it's just not about money. Nobody believes they can win the Champions with City or Tottenham just like if they were at Barça, Real, Bayern and etc lmao.

About the Gareth Bale thing... maybe you forgot he's Welsh, not English. The youth academy comparing is ridiculous, it's like if Messi wins a World Cup for Argentina, the Spanish youth rating should go up because he came through the Spanish youth academies :lol:

 

Edited by Lanko

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@Samelders there has been another thread on the general discussion about youth ratings. You can take a look, but, honestly it's not something that immediately will make sense looking at the figures. 

The English players coming through thing is again really suspect and anecdotal though. I'll admit, numerous times when I've played an English-centred game on previous FM's the English national team has reigned supreme. Last year though I had my longest FM save in many a year, and England had 2 really barren runs in which around 130CA players were becoming England regulars. In the middle of this though was a brief period in which some fantastic players came through. 

It's going to vary from save to save, so again it's got to come down to just logging it in the bugs section to see if there is anything that flags with SI.

- - -

In regards to tradition, it's a tricky situation. I can't speak for other countries, but we have clubs with tradition here. The reality is that tradition and the ability to pay money is the biggest influence. You might get a bit of a break on wages but the last transfer I remember where it was money vs tradition & slightly less money was Kaka. And that was very early in the Man City timeline of unbelievable wealth. 

Many of the biggest tradition clubs have fallen away, cherry picking examples who can still offer 6 figures a week without even flinching doesn't work. Ajax can't compete despite their history, Benfica and Porto can't. These are the teams who are typically getting out-muscled by your mid-table Premier League teams. 

Again though, playing the game when it comes down to the team I'm managing and if there is also an accepted bid from another big team (which is rarely the case) I do tend to lose out. Even when offering a premium in wages. How many times exactly in FM are one of the big clubs losing out when bidding for the same player as a lesser reputation team? 

- - -

Issues with players wanting to leave, I can't say how this is working in FM19, I haven't played a top tier team. However, it was very commonplace on FM18 that I could target certain players at Real Madrid & Barcelona, and want to bring them to my side (although this was after a near or actually unbeaten Premier League win & champions league win with Liverpool) but here is what was also happening. Several of my key players wanted to leave for Real Madrid/Barcelona because they played in a better league.

It's going both ways, so to me, that suggests that there is a varying degree of responses from players depending on hidden attributes. Those with maximum ambition would likely be more drawn to the higher reputation of the Spanish league. Those who are perhaps less ambition inclined and modelled a little differently, could be more tempted by the promise of better pay.

It's going to reach the same point, it's going to be anecdotal with variance between players. But I absolutely see your point because I found something a bit exploit-ish with the transfers last year that I could do that I submitted to SI and hopefully it has been resolved.

- - -

In regards to actual transfer amounts, taking a look at the Dutch league for example and using the check-off point of 20 million euros. There's only been 9 signings in the leagues history that have gone for that amount or more. Perhaps they ought to be trying to inflate prices more, but I can't speak with any certainty for club tendencies and staff ratings there that play a part in this. 

One possible thread of discussion here does come back to the ambition attribute. I've no idea what its set for these players, but in FM terms ambition has some very important influences.

- Ambition reflects the desire to play/work at the highest level. For players its how hard they will work to be the best they can, and how likely they are to jump at the opportunity to play for a bigger club (so may demand transfers if extremely ambitious)

- Ambition also affects things like international retirement, retirement and training. There are ways through data we can temper the desire to go as high as possible. To the best of my knowledge, no one has bid for de Ligt yet have they? So this is on one hand untested, maybe a £20m cash up front bid would get a yes. The reality is of course more likely a staggered over 5 year transfer for a higher amount with various clauses.

But again, it's going to come back to this point that if you're seeing things that make no sense to you as a player, just log it. At the very worst SI say they can't see anything, but maybe there's an argument something needs tweaking somewhere that comes from it. 

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FM tries to predict the future so past (under) performance of English teams in Europe and international competitions is not that relevant. Past results are not a good predictor of future performance.

The real life inputs that can be considered by the game are;

  • 6 of the 10 richest clubs in the world are English
  • These 6 clubs have some of the best facilities and coaches in the world
  • Most of the best managers in the world are now in England
  • The bookmaker's favourite to win the Champions League this season is Man City and Liverpool got to the final last season
  • England got to the semi finals of the World Cup with the youngest squad in the tournament
  • England are the World Cup holders at under 17 and under 20 level, which no nation has ever done before
  • England is a large, rich country where football is the national sport

Considering all this it would be strange if English clubs didn't do well in Europe. 

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5 minutes ago, s1111 said:

England got to the semi finals of the World Cup with the youngest squad in the tournament

You make some valid points regarding club football, but people really need to stop with this. They lost to the only two real teams they faced, one of them twice.

If being better than Sweden is something to brag about then carry on. Otherwise people really need to stop bringing up this world cup as if it means anything.

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1 hour ago, s1111 said:

FM tries to predict the future so past (under) performance of English teams in Europe and international competitions is not that relevant. Past results are not a good predictor of future performance.

The real life inputs that can be considered by the game are;

  • 6 of the 10 richest clubs in the world are English
  • These 6 clubs have some of the best facilities and coaches in the world
  • Most of the best managers in the world are now in England
  • The bookmaker's favourite to win the Champions League this season is Man City and Liverpool got to the final last season
  • England got to the semi finals of the World Cup with the youngest squad in the tournament
  • England are the World Cup holders at under 17 and under 20 level, which no nation has ever done before
  • England is a large, rich country where football is the national sport

Considering all this it would be strange if English clubs didn't do well in Europe. 

Lot's of Bollocks.. Ofcourse the past is a good predictor of the future, it gives you the starting point of which the game takes off. Ever heard of trends and extrapolation?

  • 6 of the 10 richest clubs in the world are English (not true)
  • These 6 clubs have some of the best facilities and coaches in the world (true but that doesn't mean performances in Europe, and doesn't mean good youth players)
  • Most of the best managers in the world are now in England (True)
  • The bookmaker's favourite to win the Champions League this season is Man City and Liverpool got to the final last season (Look at past 5 years perfomances, read back on this thread.. BTW only 3 English teams in top 10 favorites)
  • England got to the semi finals of the World Cup with the youngest squad in the tournament (HAHA, that was a joke)
  • England are the World Cup holders at under 17 and under 20 level, which no nation has ever done before (proves nothing, read back in this thread)
  • England is a large, rich country where football is the national sport (and known for underperformance on national level, and with poor European performances in at least the last 5 years)

 

Edited by Samelders

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2 hours ago, santy001 said:

@Samelders there has been another thread on the general discussion about youth ratings. You can take a look, but, honestly it's not something that immediately will make sense looking at the figures. 

The English players coming through thing is again really suspect and anecdotal though. I'll admit, numerous times when I've played an English-centred game on previous FM's the English national team has reigned supreme. Last year though I had my longest FM save in many a year, and England had 2 really barren runs in which around 130CA players were becoming England regulars. In the middle of this though was a brief period in which some fantastic players came through. 

It's going to vary from save to save, so again it's got to come down to just logging it in the bugs section to see if there is anything that flags with SI.

- - -

In regards to tradition, it's a tricky situation. I can't speak for other countries, but we have clubs with tradition here. The reality is that tradition and the ability to pay money is the biggest influence. You might get a bit of a break on wages but the last transfer I remember where it was money vs tradition & slightly less money was Kaka. And that was very early in the Man City timeline of unbelievable wealth. 

Many of the biggest tradition clubs have fallen away, cherry picking examples who can still offer 6 figures a week without even flinching doesn't work. Ajax can't compete despite their history, Benfica and Porto can't. These are the teams who are typically getting out-muscled by your mid-table Premier League teams. 

Again though, playing the game when it comes down to the team I'm managing and if there is also an accepted bid from another big team (which is rarely the case) I do tend to lose out. Even when offering a premium in wages. How many times exactly in FM are one of the big clubs losing out when bidding for the same player as a lesser reputation team? 

- - -

Issues with players wanting to leave, I can't say how this is working in FM19, I haven't played a top tier team. However, it was very commonplace on FM18 that I could target certain players at Real Madrid & Barcelona, and want to bring them to my side (although this was after a near or actually unbeaten Premier League win & champions league win with Liverpool) but here is what was also happening. Several of my key players wanted to leave for Real Madrid/Barcelona because they played in a better league.

It's going both ways, so to me, that suggests that there is a varying degree of responses from players depending on hidden attributes. Those with maximum ambition would likely be more drawn to the higher reputation of the Spanish league. Those who are perhaps less ambition inclined and modelled a little differently, could be more tempted by the promise of better pay.

It's going to reach the same point, it's going to be anecdotal with variance between players. But I absolutely see your point because I found something a bit exploit-ish with the transfers last year that I could do that I submitted to SI and hopefully it has been resolved.

- - -

In regards to actual transfer amounts, taking a look at the Dutch league for example and using the check-off point of 20 million euros. There's only been 9 signings in the leagues history that have gone for that amount or more. Perhaps they ought to be trying to inflate prices more, but I can't speak with any certainty for club tendencies and staff ratings there that play a part in this. 

One possible thread of discussion here does come back to the ambition attribute. I've no idea what its set for these players, but in FM terms ambition has some very important influences.

- Ambition reflects the desire to play/work at the highest level. For players its how hard they will work to be the best they can, and how likely they are to jump at the opportunity to play for a bigger club (so may demand transfers if extremely ambitious)

- Ambition also affects things like international retirement, retirement and training. There are ways through data we can temper the desire to go as high as possible. To the best of my knowledge, no one has bid for de Ligt yet have they? So this is on one hand untested, maybe a £20m cash up front bid would get a yes. The reality is of course more likely a staggered over 5 year transfer for a higher amount with various clauses.

But again, it's going to come back to this point that if you're seeing things that make no sense to you as a player, just log it. At the very worst SI say they can't see anything, but maybe there's an argument something needs tweaking somewhere that comes from it. 

Thank you for your thorough explanation and informed message. 

I will log bugs from now on, if I find something unusual or unrealistic.. 

 

About the current transfer system i'm worried.. 

I did log the Dutch league outgoing transfer problem, I hope it's not present in other second tier nations with great talents such as Portugal, Brazil and Argentina...

 

Lozano was leaving for 14-16 million Euro, in the first transferwindow (media has rumours of 35-40 million)

De Ligt for 18 million (up to 30 with clauses) in the first transferwindow, but media rumours are 50-60 million Euro

De Jong for 15 million (up to 20 with clauses) in the first transferwindow, but media rumours are 50-60 million Euro

(these are one of the brightest young players in the world)

https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnation.com/2018/5/22/17381088/tottenham-hotspur-transfer-news-rumors-ajax-matthijs-de-ligt-replacement-lisandro-magallan (this was in May, his value increased even further)

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2795650-frenkie-de-jong-reportedly-a-grand-priority-transfer-target-for-barcelona

 

Knipsel.JPG

Knipsel.JPG

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2 hours ago, santy001 said:

One possible thread of discussion here does come back to the ambition attribute. I've no idea what its set for these players, but in FM terms ambition has some very important influences.

- Ambition reflects the desire to play/work at the highest level. For players its how hard they will work to be the best they can, and how likely they are to jump at the opportunity to play for a bigger club (so may demand transfers if extremely ambitious)

- Ambition also affects things like international retirement, retirement and training. There are ways through data we can temper the desire to go as high as possible. To the best of my knowledge, no one has bid for de Ligt yet have they? So this is on one hand untested, maybe a £20m cash up front bid would get a yes. The reality is of course more likely a staggered over 5 year transfer for a higher amount with various clauses.

But again, it's going to come back to this point that if you're seeing things that make no sense to you as a player, just log it. At the very worst SI say they can't see anything, but maybe there's an argument something needs tweaking somewhere that comes from it. 

One thing I've often wondered is whether researchers would be better served by having more optionally selectable career preferences options to avoid the "ambition" attribute having to do quite so much work.

I realise you can already set "career plans" to give people a specific aspiration to play for certain clubs or in certain regions, but it'd be nice to also have "will [not] drop down divisions for first team football", "will accept salary cut for first team football" and "will consider moves to lesser leagues for financial reasons", "will not move from current country", "wishes to continue development at current club", "will move to be the key player at his club", "enjoys experiencing football in different countries" etc. to reflect things they are known to have done or said. Presumably this would be easier from a research perspective than tweaking an ambition rating which is supposed to have other effects (plus loyalty and adaptability which also has numerous other effects)

Then again, everything's a guess. I think researchers would have been justified setting a "would prefer to stay at club until retirement" option for the likes of Xavi, Iniesta and Ronaldo if it existed.

Likewise I'd have thought earlier versions of the game's transfer simulation a bit dubious if two of Barcelona's biggest legends had moved on to bog standard petro-leagues rather than retiring to coach at La Masia, or Real had cashed in on its top-goalscoring talisman without even a proper replacement

 

1 hour ago, RocheBag said:

You make some valid points regarding club football, but people really need to stop with this. They lost to the only two real teams they faced, one of them twice.

If being better than Sweden is something to brag about then carry on. Otherwise people really need to stop bringing up this world cup as if it means anything.

tbh, it applies both ways - other generations of England teams' players abilities have been written off because they were knocked out early in extremely close games against tough opponents, sometimes more due to mental weakness than being outplayed. The thing about knockout competitions is sometimes you do go very deep into them by beating average opponents without having a particularly great side (see also Germany in 2002) and squads possessing the quality to be genuine contenders for the competition often fall at the very first hurdle (sometimes even German sides!). Nobody really thinks the current English team is anything close to the quality of the early 2000s England sides, never mind at the level of France or Germany, but it was still 22 minutes away from a final appearance simply by doing most of the basics right and sticking its penalties away.

As for the England national sides' setup in game, it benefits heavily from  (i) most relevant variables being dynamic and regen PA is inflated, which means the England side improves, whereas the likes of Brazil and Germany can't really get any better (ii) other sides at a similar starting level to England like Croatia, Switzerland, Chile and Mexico don't get as many regens or any club success in a typical game database setup which means they don't improve in the same way, and in small databases actually tend to have acute weaknesses due to a shallow player pool which make them much easier to beat than IRL

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On 08/11/2018 at 11:11, tajj7 said:

No point 1 is extremely relevant, whether England can actually translate that into actual senior peformances on the pitch IRL depends on a multitude of factors, but in game terms it makes a lot of sense. 

And point 3 is valid going forward because in game the PL will always earn the most money and will always have more richer clubs than the other leagues. It's simple maths here, in reality , if we look at AI controlled teams so no user taking a team beyond it's level, France is only ever going 1, maybe 2 potential European winners, Germany, 2, maybe 3, Spain, maybe 3, Italy, 1-3, that is the financial reality.

England is consistently going to produce 6. It's a bigger pot to pull from so odds on there are going to be more English teams there and there about because essentially there are 6 big clubs not 1-3 like the other leagues. 

And as we can see from the CAs it's imagined nonsense anyway. 

Another thing I will point to is personally I think people massively over rate how good teams like Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, PSG etc. actually are, based on them being flat track bullies most of the time. 

The amount of times these teams get 100 points and 100 goals over the last 10 - 15 years show how poor the leagues they are in actually are.

They are flat track bullies who are barely ever challenged. Whereas the PL, because it distributes the money more, means that all 20 teams put up more of a challenge to the bigger clubs on a regular basis. 

Which is where I find all this X player wouldn't get into X clubs rubbish, I'd flip it the other way, we actually see players come into the PL who highly rated in other leagues who barely make a splash here, look at Emerson for example at Chelsea, in game he is by far Chelsea's best full back obviously rated very highly by the Roma researcher, IRL he can barely get in the team. Naby Keita is rated 'world class' by the game, has not really done much IRL and is being kept out of the Liverpool team by a 33 year old James Milner, Fabinho has barely had a kick, Bakayoko last year is another example.  

There is a huge list of players successful in the European leagues who failed in the Premier League, and yet went back and were successful again.  

So I then find it hilarious that people some of the best players in PL teams wouldn't get into teams like PSG, Barca, Real etc. Last year Spurs reject Paulinho played 49 games for Barcelona in all competitions, and yet he struggled to get into a Spurs team that wasn't even that good back then.  Renato Sanches is making appearances for Bayern Munich this year when he couldn't even get into a relegated Swansea team last year. Krychowiak was a star performer for Sevilla, poor performer for West Brom. 

Examples like that make comments about the likes of Salah, Firminho, De Bruyne, Aguero, etc. not getting into top teams around Europe laughable IMO and not worth the time of day. 

Good players are good players and each club/nation has it's researchers, I see no evidence of bias anywhere. 

 

For starters 1 is extremely irrelevant in a research point of view. At least to what I've been told achievements at youth level have no baring in game. Would also add the Steven Fletcher, Dorrans and Snodgrass all won these tournaments as well. Best they ever got to was mid table premiership. As for the World cup others have answered. If scraping past panama, sweden and Columbia (without key players) and losing to Belgiums B squad then I'm pretty certain most nations should deserve a big boost. 

As for players failing in your league that happens in every single league in world football be it a team, style or culture issue. Infact 2 of the 4 players you've just mentioned couldn't get a game off the bench for Chelsea 3 years ago. As for foriegn researchers getting it wrong of course that happens again though that can be culture, style or play issues or bad scouting by a club. Remember Lloris took half a season to knock Friedel out of Spurs side, back then he was one of the top keepers on fm and has proven since to be a very good signing, was he not playing because he wasn't good enough or had to sort some things out? 

Paulinho went away and obviously worked on things the same as 2 of the 4 players you later mention who couldn't get on Chelseas bench 2 years ago. Seem to remember Jose couldn't get rid of de Bruyne fast enough were he went back to a midtable Bundesliga side. As for Sanches getting games for Bayern they have an aging midfield in a league that prioritises youth development hardly suprising a guy who won golden ball is getting a crack. And Krychowiak I cant talk for as havent seen much of him but lots of reasons why a player would struggle in a relegation side. Would Aguero look good in a side battling relegation? 

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The other thing is I am not even seeing what people claim in game. 

In my Southampton save -

First season Champions league quarters - Bayern, Porto, Barca, Man City, PSG, Inter, A. Madrid, Liverpool.  City did go on to win it against Inter in the final, but City were the only English club in the Semis.

2nd Season CL quarters -  Inter, Bayern, Real M, A. Madrid, Arsenal, Torino, Man U, PSG, A. Madrid won it beating Inter again in the final. 

3rd season knock out phases - 4 English teams (one of which is me), 3 French, 3 Spanish, 3 Italian. 

Europa League was first season Chelsea v Arsenal and then Barcelona v Dortmund 2nd season.

 

In my Real Madrid save there is one EPL side in the quarter finals. 

 

So where is this 'domination', it's mythical and clear confirmation bias from people with a bias against the league. 

 

 

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23 hours ago, tajj7 said:

So where is this 'domination', it's mythical and clear confirmation bias from people with a bias against the league. 

 

 

On the other hand, in my Toulouse save, 4 and half seasons in, 8/8 champions league finalist were english and Endgland just won the 2022 World Cup, so, where are those other mythical clubs or mythical other nations, they obviously don't exist, it's just clear confirmation bias from people who can't look past their english bias. 

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On 11/11/2018 at 10:12, tajj7 said:

So where is this 'domination', it's mythical and clear confirmation bias from people with a bias against the league. 

 

 

2 hours ago, LatZee said:

On the other hand, in my Toulouse save, 4 and half seasons in, 8/8 champions league finalist were english and Endgland just won the 2022 World Cup, so, where are those other mythical clubs or mythical other nations, they obviously don't exist, it's just clear confirmation bias from people who can't look past their english bias. 

 

In one of my saves had 6 English clubs in the 1st knockout round of the UCL. Six because one English team had previously won the UCL and another the Europa League as well...

Edited by Lanko

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3 hours ago, LatZee said:

On the other hand, in my Toulouse save, 4 and half seasons in, 8/8 champions league finalist were english and Endgland just won the 2022 World Cup, so, where are those other mythical clubs or mythical other nations, they obviously don't exist, it's just clear confirmation bias from people who can't look past their english bias. 

Post some screenshots, it helps make the discussion a bit more meaningful. And consider uploading your save with a bug report that points out this seems a bit bizarre.

1 hour ago, Lanko said:

In one of my saves had 6 English clubs in the 1st knockout round of the UCL. Six because one English team had previously won the UCL and another the Europa League as well...

You should definitely be posting this, as I'm sure somewhere around 2015 or so the rule was only 5 from one country just in case such a situation happened. If that is the rule, and its not in game then its definitely a bug. 

So get some screenshots in here and I'm sure the mods can then point you in the direction of the most relevant bugs forum.

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44 minutes ago, santy001 said:

You should definitely be posting this, as I'm sure somewhere around 2015 or so the rule was only 5 from one country just in case such a situation happened. If that is the rule, and its not in game then its definitely a bug. 

So get some screenshots in here and I'm sure the mods can then point you in the direction of the most relevant bugs forum.

I doubt they'll fix it (if it's indeed a bug) since it's on 18. If it is, hopefully it won't be on 19 as well.

But anyway, here it is:

 

First Knockout Round:

3w3GaCO.png

 

Group Stage:

z1wG0XY.png

AWH5jN1.png

v952LP5.png

 

Premier League of 2031:

VZzIwBq.png

 

City champion of UCL in 2031:

RfE2Ilt.png

 

West Brom champions of UEL in 2031:

JXqL1fe.png

 

Edited by Lanko

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3 hours ago, santy001 said:

Post some screenshots, it helps make the discussion a bit more meaningful. And consider uploading your save with a bug report that points out this seems a bit bizarre.

Sure I can (and have now), but, what's the point? It's just a meaningless single point of data that could be completely random. Or down to who knows what reason. I wouldn't even consider it a bug and therefore worthy of checking up the save game. Just like that stupid post above mine that I replied to. 

Honestly I don't really see the point because this is a thing that should be easy to catch in a soak test if it is true.  Of course a million players will create all kind of weird random results, cherry picking a couple of them doesn't really have any meaning one way or the other. And some bias is always going to be there. Everybody is biased, that is just non avoidable. People are messy, subjective and very good at lying, both to others and to themselves. That is number one lesson you learn in any science, to not believe anyone, including yourself. Only believe in cold, hard data :P

CLWC.jpg

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On 12/11/2018 at 20:49, LatZee said:

Sure I can (and have now), but, what's the point? It's just a meaningless single point of data that could be completely random. Or down to who knows what reason. I wouldn't even consider it a bug and therefore worthy of checking up the save game. Just like that stupid post above mine that I replied to. 

Honestly I don't really see the point because this is a thing that should be easy to catch in a soak test if it is true.  Of course a million players will create all kind of weird random results, cherry picking a couple of them doesn't really have any meaning one way or the other. And some bias is always going to be there. Everybody is biased, that is just non avoidable. People are messy, subjective and very good at lying, both to others and to themselves. That is number one lesson you learn in any science, to not believe anyone, including yourself. Only believe in cold, hard data :P

CLWC.jpg

I just hope I dont get a save like this in my longterm career. Wil kill all the fun for me. 

United winning the CL this year.. Tottenham vs Arsenal final in 2020 :'( ..

MEH!

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English clubs got much more money, so it's quite normal for FM.  First 1-2 seasons can be won by, say, Bayern, Juventus, PSG, Atletico (so far in my FM19 saves), but right now in the third season there are 3 English teams in CL semi-finals. Nothing really you can do if an English team in Europa League buys center-back for 172M during winter transfer window.

Also, Florentino Perez doesn't control UEFA in FM, so chances for English teams are even better.

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1 hour ago, Xeewaj Q. said:

Also, Florentino Perez doesn't control UEFA in FM, so chances for English teams are even better.

Golden! 

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