Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
DiasV

EPL dominating the european cups??

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

Hiya Gary Neville, Hiya pal!

No counter arguement?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Barside said:

No counter arguement?

To be honest, I don't really care.  I thought a light-hearted comment would just pass as is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think too many people are falling for the "expensive = good" fallacy.

Something that in FM doesn't really exist once a player is about 22-23 and past the "flawed, unsalvageable wonderkid" stage of his career (when AI splash stupid money on the new Ben Arfas and Balotellis who no human manager would sign, knowing it'd be impossible to get the best out of them).

In the game, you basically get what you pay for. A player worth 100M is almost inevitably a great purchase, Not cheap, but there's no risk of wasting money on a Malcom or on an Arda Turan.

In real life instead, the risk of ending up with an expensive flop or with an poor fit for the team is much higher and a high transfer fee is actually far from an indicator of quality.

And here's where the fallacy kicks in. Just because both Top Clubs and Midtable Filler can throw money at any player they fancy signing, that doesn't mean those players are "the best". I can definitely walk into a Ford dealership and pay 50k for a Fiesta, but that won't turn that car into a fancy SUV, a comfy sedan or a cool roadster... And surely I won't win races driving that, even against similar cars by "worse" brands.

Some English sides are simply overrated because they cost a lot of money.

Top Clubs can be in contention for CL and EL, provided they don't bottle it as per tradition, but the notion of 4th-5th (or lower) placed sides waltzing their way to the EL final is laughably inaccurate.

P.S. Everton may as well become Romanian or Danish champions, but surely NOT with undefeated seasons and with three-digits scored goals or GD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has nothing to do with this but sort of has , in a way, it was a British journalist asking Pep after the 6-1 win over Southampton if he now thought that Sterling was the best player in the World, and i have seen this Before. There is something about unconsciously downplaying other nations league´s or players when something good or unusually good happens in the PL. Anyway, Pep looked liked had swallowed a lemon, "the best player in the World"'? :)

Edited by eye-switcher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that contributes to this is that th clubs outside of the PL don't earn enough money than they should with sponsorships and other means besides the PL tv income. Real, Barca, psg, etc. can basically buy to the limit of FFP if they want to in real life, but in previous FM's they don't have th cash. 

I too get tired of every save starting LaLiga is the highest ranked country but the PL soon overtakes them every time. Also seeing clubs like arseenal and Tottenham knock out Barca is tiresome. Last year I did a Barca save and every window my players wanted to leave for the PL. it was very unrealistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, wardog said:

Why is that? Are these players really that good? Thats the debate here. 

Well, which players exactly are we talking about? All of the top 6 teams are absolutely loaded with top quality players, who deserve to be highly rated. Pogba, Hazard, Salah, de Bruyne, Aguero, et al are almost certainly not overrated. Squad players? Well, that depends a lot on the player I think. Some players seem to be rated a little higher than expected. Take most of Man Utd's defense in FM18, for instance. They were beastly in the game, but I do not think it was entirely earned by their real world performances. There are probably some players who could be classed as under rated by the game too.

If you take the top 6 teams from across Europe, and compare them, who would you say is strongest? The only country that can even come close to matching England (again, on paper) is Spain. Germany has an egalitarian mid table, but it is hardly of the highest quality. France lacks quality below PSG, with only Lyon and Marseille being consistently good (Monaco too, although they are dire this year). Italy has some depth below Juventus, but teams like Roma and Napoli are consistently found wanting against bigger teams. So, and I reiterate if you were to judge only on team quality, it is not too shocking that England does well. There is a reason people think they are underperforming in real life.

I suspect the reason why they do so much better in the game is another mechanic that is difficult to replicate in game. I do not really know what this would be. Not modelling well the different footballing styles? The English style of fast paced direct football is easier to replicate than the pass oriented style of Spain, for example. This is a limitation of the game (I have not played FM19 properly yet, I will get it in the January sales so this may be no longer true). Not properly representing the mentality of players? The lack of handling pressure of big games? A perceived inferiority? I do not really have an answer for you, because it seems so intangible. Which is probably why England's travails in Europe are not well replicated in the game. It is hard to program something (without simply fudging it) without there being a general consensus on the cause.

I do not say I do not see a problem - obviously the game should reflect real life as closely as possible. I do not really see the player ratings as the cause of the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Sticx said:

One thing that contributes to this is that th clubs outside of the PL don't earn enough money than they should with sponsorships and other means besides the PL tv income. Real, Barca, psg, etc. can basically buy to the limit of FFP if they want to in real life, but in previous FM's they don't have th cash. 

I too get tired of every save starting LaLiga is the highest ranked country but the PL soon overtakes them every time. Also seeing clubs like arseenal and Tottenham knock out Barca is tiresome. Last year I did a Barca save and every window my players wanted to leave for the PL. it was very unrealistic.

Agreed, it literally happens every save.. While IRL Spanish clubs are much much stronger in the CL and EL.. Also Tottenham and Arsenal's performance in Europa is always overrated, with Tottenham sometimes even winning the CL!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 ore fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

Well, which players exactly are we talking about? All of the top 6 teams are absolutely loaded with top quality players, who deserve to be highly rated. Pogba, Hazard, Salah, de Bruyne, Aguero, et al are almost certainly not overrated. Squad players? Well, that depends a lot on the player I think. Some players seem to be rated a little higher than expected. Take most of Man Utd's defense in FM18, for instance. They were beastly in the game, but I do not think it was entirely earned by their real world performances. There are probably some players who could be classed as under rated by the game too.

Some of the Top Players haven't really impressed when it really mattered (ie. in CL knockout stages), so while players like CR7 and Messi are consistently a huge factor in CL later stages, some of the stars of EPL sides tend to disappear.

About squad players, I think we'd go back to the disputed "CA quota" point it was raised earlier (or in a similar thread).

It's likely that, in a vacuum, some of Utd, City or Spurs squad players are indeed worse than they're in FM. But had the researchers rated them 100% fairly, they'd have probably ended up being transfer-listed in game or weakened their side too much, making it less competitive compared to other Top Clubs.
So, in context, a few extra points here and there may be needed to keep the gameworld balanced and realistic. By being unrealistic...

 

However, I quickly checked FM18 db, and the CA of plenty of apparently overrated players isn't that high either!!! So there must be something more behind EPL sides consistently overachieving in CL and EL in the game...
 

 

2 ore fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

If you take the top 6 teams from across Europe, and compare them, who would you say is strongest? The only country that can even come close to matching England (again, on paper) is Spain. Germany has an egalitarian mid table, but it is hardly of the highest quality. France lacks quality below PSG, with only Lyon and Marseille being consistently good (Monaco too, although they are dire this year). Italy has some depth below Juventus, but teams like Roma and Napoli are consistently found wanting against bigger teams. So, and I reiterate if you were to judge only on team quality, it is not too shocking that England does well. There is a reason people think they are underperforming in real life.

EPL teams simply have better publicity and visibility because they can spend ridiculous amounts of money on "average" players who immediately are regarded as Top Players because of their price tag.

Then a "cheap" Roma side gave Liverpool a run for their money last year despite a not-so-fancy lineup... Also Napoli have been consistently doing fine, especially for a side that under Sarri had NO DEPTH by design and was put together with bargains. Even Inter, which are the epitome of inconsistency and randomness, have managed to defeat Tottenham weeks ago...
 

And I surely don't need to "defend" Spanish football either, with 3 sides having been big players in recent years.

 

2 ore fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

I suspect the reason why they do so much better in the game is another mechanic that is difficult to replicate in game. I do not really know what this would be. Not modelling well the different footballing styles? The English style of fast paced direct football is easier to replicate than the pass oriented style of Spain, for example. This is a limitation of the game (I have not played FM19 properly yet, I will get it in the January sales so this may be no longer true). Not properly representing the mentality of players? The lack of handling pressure of big games? A perceived inferiority? I do not really have an answer for you, because it seems so intangible. Which is probably why England's travails in Europe are not well replicated in the game. It is hard to program something (without simply fudging it) without there being a general consensus on the cause.

I do not say I do not see a problem - obviously the game should reflect real life as closely as possible. I do not really see the player ratings as the cause of the problem.

It's likely a mix of some tactics being easier to replicate and yielding better results, but there must be something more.

If CA values aren't as skewed as previously thought (at least from a general standpoint... there are notable and glaring exceptions), it can be a matter of mental traits and other dynamics.

FM doesn't have much of a "professional bottlers" effect besides the Important Match/Pressure attribute. Maybe the impact of said attributes should be bigger in CL and World Cup later stages? Or maybe a new value like "Club's Winning Tradition" that adds or reduces pressure before and during big games?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The struggle is to encapsulate the cup football mindset, we see it all the time in the FA cup as well. Where significantly smaller teams - with an even greater gap in resources pull off shock results. Over the course of the season, most of the teams in question aren't putting the form out there to suggest they are actually the very best in their own country. Sevilla in recent years haven't troubled the positions of Barca/Real that much. Napoli & Roma have gotten close to Juventus at different points over the last few years, but again they haven't seriously troubled them.

In fact, in recent years, the most common story coming from Spain has been one of Real Madrid seemingly falling over themselves to throw it away domestically. They've got 1 title win in the last 5 or 6 years in Spain right? So how come this all conquering team in Europe, fail to take the opportunities presented to them at home? The team who have, stepped it up most regularly when it really matters in Europe, have been one of the biggest bottle jobs going over the last few years at home in their own league. So in Spain you seem to have this two tier system. Barcelona are the ones who can seemingly handle the pressure. Yet put it in a champions league context and the two tier system is the opposite way. Barcelona (comparatively) seem to be floundering at one hurdle or another and Real Madrid are bringing it home.

So how does this balance out? I don't know the CA's of the Barcelona & Real Madrid squads, nor do I know the hidden attributes. But clearly there seems to be something psychological that is seeing the might of Real Madrid, the side that could conquer practically anyone in Europe falter in Spain. As I said above, the context alters depending on the competition. And then you've got the reality of the others, those teams like Sevilla who have done so well in Europe recently, but again aren't even close to challenging Real/Barca generally speaking.

The very real issue to look at it from an FM research perspective, is, on one hand you have the Real Madrid team who in the same instances are showing great displays to reflect upon their important matches, their pressure, their ambition, their professionalism, their determination in Europe. Yet in the league are showing poorer displays for these same attributes. And of course, generally speaking, Real Madrid have tended to be a million miles away, I just very much remember its been numerous points in which Barcelona themselves have had a slip-up and opened the door for Real, and they failed to take it with regularity.

- - -

For a lot of teams we don't get this European competition / Domestic competition comparison. But there's a very real difference seemingly affecting all teams. In recent years, the only team arguably that has been consistent in both is Juventus, Bayern had a little spell before that, and Barcelona before that. Very few teams have actually kept up a high degree of late stage European football and winning their league at home. 

There's an awful lot more to this discussion, and it of course benefits everyone if someone comes up with a good idea. The reality is its likely to just be improved over time by SI. You can't look at the complete package of player CA's in the vacuum of just European performance. And for the discussion to really take on a meaningful purpose, people need to be exact with the teams and their thoughts because general-broad sweeping statements really can't help bring about anything positive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Well, which players exactly are we talking about? All of the top 6 teams are absolutely loaded with top quality players, who deserve to be highly rated. Pogba, Hazard, Salah, de Bruyne, Aguero, et al are almost certainly not overrated. Squad players? Well, that depends a lot on the player I think. Some players seem to be rated a little higher than expected. Take most of Man Utd's defense in FM18, for instance. They were beastly in the game, but I do not think it was entirely earned by their real world performances. There are probably some players who could be classed as under rated by the game too.

If you take the top 6 teams from across Europe, and compare them, who would you say is strongest? The only country that can even come close to matching England (again, on paper) is Spain. Germany has an egalitarian mid table, but it is hardly of the highest quality. France lacks quality below PSG, with only Lyon and Marseille being consistently good (Monaco too, although they are dire this year). Italy has some depth below Juventus, but teams like Roma and Napoli are consistently found wanting against bigger teams. So, and I reiterate if you were to judge only on team quality, it is not too shocking that England does well. There is a reason people think they are underperforming in real life.

I suspect the reason why they do so much better in the game is another mechanic that is difficult to replicate in game. I do not really know what this would be. Not modelling well the different footballing styles? The English style of fast paced direct football is easier to replicate than the pass oriented style of Spain, for example. This is a limitation of the game (I have not played FM19 properly yet, I will get it in the January sales so this may be no longer true). Not properly representing the mentality of players? The lack of handling pressure of big games? A perceived inferiority? I do not really have an answer for you, because it seems so intangible. Which is probably why England's travails in Europe are not well replicated in the game. It is hard to program something (without simply fudging it) without there being a general consensus on the cause.

I do not say I do not see a problem - obviously the game should reflect real life as closely as possible. I do not really see the player ratings as the cause of the problem.

Would you say one third of the best players in the world play in the premier league? This is off CA and i wont mention the players. 

You mention Pogba is this the same Pogba who is clearly a very good footballer but has yet to produce the goods in a united **** and many united fans blaming him for? The rest i agree are good but could they honestly walk into a real, bayern, barca team etc. Squyad players may be the option as you mention on 18 united defence was a huge issue. I would get that other leagues beyond their elite teams are weaker, but is that because those elite teams are just miles ahead would be a strong argument I have, We havent seen a team dominate England in recent years and I honestly think a big part of that is down to the top teams not being as far ahead as they could be rather than the midfield being stronger. That of course is opinion but how many Everton/Woles/Newcastle players could really get a game at one of the bigger clubs? 

 

You do have a point about football styles and such. I manage in Scotland alot, its my league and I enjoy it. But what you see is in real life you watch a rangers game and some teams come looking for a 0-0 very happily. That AI doesn't adjust like this and may play more defensive v me and my Rangers side but they wont happily have 10 men in the box playing like its a cup final. Players often raise their games 2 or 3 levels for this one off game that they can't achieve in other games. This has been a constant and a pretty famous Souness target that Walter Smith told him against as far back at the 80s highlights this. Fergie while at Aberdeen used to admit his team talk before playing old firm was drastically different and he wanted to make it a more physical affair and would pump his players up for that, you cant do that in game the way he did in real life. 

 

I think there could be two problems. The Premier League hype automatically gets a player boosted, while the extra styles cant be accounted for, while smaller leagues may also be under-represented a little. 

 

That said alot of this can then be down to opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, wardog said:

I would get that other leagues beyond their elite teams are weaker, but is that because those elite teams are just miles ahead would be a strong argument I have, We havent seen a team dominate England in recent years and I honestly think a big part of that is down to the top teams not being as far ahead as they could be rather than the midfield being stronger. That of course is opinion but how many Everton/Woles/Newcastle players could really get a game at one of the bigger clubs? 

4

That's just completely wrong. The top 6 in the EPL have gained 150 points currently after matchday 11, which is an average of 25 points. This is higher than at the same stage in 2017 (130), 2016 (138), 2015 (117), 2014 (111). 25 points would be at least second in any of those years, this year it's 4th. Maybe ONE team isn't dominating, but quite clearly the current trend is the top 6 pulling away and separating themselves from the midtable teams.

You also contradict yourself in saying the top English teams aren't much stronger than midtable teams, while claiming none of the players from midtable teams would get a game at the big clubs. (Plenty of recent ex-Everton players in the top 6 teams, so that's a bad example, Newcastle are a bottom tier team and Wolves is a promoted side!)

 

My point would be that the difference, both financially and squad-wise, between the top 6 English clubs and the rest has never been bigger. The midtable teams have good players, and the top 6 regularly scoop them up. Having 6 teams pull away like this is as far as I know unique, the top is usually much smaller. Atletico squeezed past Arsenal (6th EPL last season vs 2nd in La Liga)  last season, so you could argue that 6 English teams are roughly as good as the top 3 Spanish ones. 6 options to go far in Europe will produce better results than average. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

My point would be that the difference, both financially and squad-wise, between the top 6 English clubs and the rest has never been bigger. The midtable teams have good players, and the top 6 regularly scoop them up. Having 6 teams pull away like this is as far as I know unique, the top is usually much smaller. Atletico squeezed past Arsenal (6th EPL last season vs 2nd in La Liga)  last season, so you could argue that 6 English teams are roughly as good as the top 3 Spanish ones. 6 options to go far in Europe will produce better results than average. 

So how do we explain this than?

 image.thumb.png.d5378eb4d82b4e3b80fc1bf6b545b972.png

Edited by Samelders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do people really think English sides are better than Spanish sides? I feel Serie A is a level below, I've actually been to a few games here in Bologna, and the quality is miles away from the EPL (Granted, I've only ever been to a couple of Arsenal games live, so maybe a bit unfair).

 

However, Spanish sides have outperformed English sides every year. Atletico knocked out Arsenal easily, and I can say we're comparable to how well we do in the league. Sevilla knocked out United without looking remotely troubled. It wasn't a smash and grab, they dominated United over 180 minutes. Please don't say it was "lack of wanting it", United finished second.

 

Next up, Spurs were easily dispatched by Juventus, who were nowhere near their best over the two legs. Though this is an Italian top team, and Spurs are not THAT level.

 

Roma-Liverpool were close. On the form both teams were in though, Liverpool were the 2nd best team in the country at the time, even if the table didn't show it, but is showing it now. Roma were good, but not THAT good. 

 

City outclassed Napoli easily. They are a true top team from the EPL, but with no real CL history. However, would you back City against Barcelona, Real or even Atletico? I wouldn't.

 

Liverpool also didn't beat Sevilla in the groups, who are distinctly below that group. Sevilla who eventually did knock out United. 

Edited by theonets

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Nacaw said:

That's just completely wrong. The top 6 in the EPL have gained 150 points currently after matchday 11, which is an average of 25 points. This is higher than at the same stage in 2017 (130), 2016 (138), 2015 (117), 2014 (111). 25 points would be at least second in any of those years, this year it's 4th. Maybe ONE team isn't dominating, but quite clearly the current trend is the top 6 pulling away and separating themselves from the midtable teams.

You also contradict yourself in saying the top English teams aren't much stronger than midtable teams, while claiming none of the players from midtable teams would get a game at the big clubs. (Plenty of recent ex-Everton players in the top 6 teams, so that's a bad example, Newcastle are a bottom tier team and Wolves is a promoted side!)

 

My point would be that the difference, both financially and squad-wise, between the top 6 English clubs and the rest has never been bigger. The midtable teams have good players, and the top 6 regularly scoop them up. Having 6 teams pull away like this is as far as I know unique, the top is usually much smaller. Atletico squeezed past Arsenal (6th EPL last season vs 2nd in La Liga)  last season, so you could argue that 6 English teams are roughly as good as the top 3 Spanish ones. 6 options to go far in Europe will produce better results than average. 

But thats what im saying. The gap is widening in England but the standard still isn't great. 

As for using Atletico "squeezing" past Arsenal thus 6 teams in England are as good as Spains top three - genuinely unsure if this is a troll comment or not. Burnley barely got past Aberdeen over 2 legs and needed extra time. City failed to beat Celtic two years ago. Is Scotlands top 2 as good as Englands top 7 and thus as good as Spains top 3? Aberdeen in turned have failed to beat Rangers in the league in 2 years does that make Rangers that good aswell, and they lost to the 4th best team in Luxemborg last season, are the 4th best team in Luxemborg thus as good as the English top 7 and thus Spains top 3? Looking at one result in isolation  becomes a very dangerous game here as by process of 3 results Ive now got Progres as good as Barcelona. Not to mention that Atletico aren't a team that goes out and blows teams away, their very well organized and hard working and earn small victories consistently. 

The point i was making in regards to midtable teams and players going to top teams but you assume im talking about English top teams. In the last few years we've seen Stones and Sterling go for 50m to city from Everton and Liverpool respective - before Liverpool started to become a proper force again - Would either of these players be starters at Barca, Real, PSG, Juve or Bayern. In my honest opinion no. Someone else mentions here Pep got asked if Sterling was the best player in the world by the media. Is he even is the discussion really? Is he even the best player at city never mind the world. This is what I mean. Yes the teams i selected at random maybe aren't the best options but also highlights that that depth that people mention the premier league has, it really doesn't. The top 6 are starting to pull away again but they still arent close to the Elite clubs of Europe despite the millions in extra tv revenue. The one saving grace they might have is all these sides have aging squads and likely in the near future could very well have a blip. But thats them regressing not the English league stepping up. Again this could be represented in game but would be 2-3 years to show rather than instant. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

@santy001However, while FM can simulate the footballing world, it can never properly replicate it. On paper, outside of the Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern and PSG, the top 5 or 6 teams in the EPL have by far the best teams on paper. The Manchester City, Liverpool and Chelsea teams are loaded with talent at all positions. Manchester United and Arsenal are also pretty sure to be on that list, although Manchester United definitely are probably not as strong as they look given their players are not performing. Tottenham, likewise, have a squad as good as anyone in Europe. If you are looking at the players only, you would expect English sides to dominate Europe.

 

My biggest issue with this is that none of the EPL top 6 are improving their starting line ups/squads by signing the best players of those european sides each year, normally they will sign a player that is surplus to requirements from those sides you mentioned and aside from paul pogba for a world record fee none of the big european sides lost a starter to the top 6 epl sides

As you can see here...

image.thumb.png.dd89f03d3ce80ddc0bdffab0fc72456e.png

image.thumb.png.3274811900b9d8203d3309bf740821eb.png

image.thumb.png.5ac529309a5a7e0e37a741cc541e6854.png

image.thumb.png.42f1d6ac9fc28c7c9143286ca9bf8393.png

image.thumb.png.e4b63b8ab3c1be9902a9b928bb861430.png

image.thumb.png.4e3087392d463a9b79a898977ad5c09a.png

image.thumb.png.049ee71bcf8f4ee98d07922de08d42ec.png

image.thumb.png.7bf223da7ff1d6b56a0869d9a68b9944.png

image.thumb.png.5f6490005720e54e4ed040b5e9730e78.png

image.thumb.png.d43226d70694d7ac05f454da9aa4975c.png

image.thumb.png.f67a646e13033d6b9bba9bdbc3025638.png

image.thumb.png.759d15bd455c02a835546d66b653b49a.png

image.thumb.png.31d30a299d91281a57e4c2b34869b26c.png

image.thumb.png.1a7862e69b23abe4bc1954aee08b88d6.png

image.thumb.png.191f83ee2cf5320aeede7841cd1d2eb8.png

image.thumb.png.125d731882a6e2c43f5265e4d3b92986.png

image.thumb.png.9145c0c69ed4fc9a3a96046f02c17560.png

 

Maybe reputations of the clubs need to be adjusted accordingly to stop the epl clubs taking starters from those sides or add preferences to spanish, italian and german players at those big clubs to not play in england but it just shows why the epl clubs have been struggling irl in europe because they sign players from outside the top 6 in england to go straight in to their starting line ups or players from the non elite european sides as well as cast offs from the biggest european sides... they are signing the best of the rest and it shows irl but not in game

So if you think on papaer they have the best sides then huge CA increases are needed to teams like monaco, schalke, roma etc... because these are where these players are coming from not bayern, barca, real etc...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Showerman said:

My biggest issue with this is that none of the EPL top 6 are improving their starting line ups/squads by signing the best players of those european sides each year, normally they will sign a player that is surplus to requirements from those sides you mentioned and aside from paul pogba for a world record fee none of the big european sides lost a starter to the top 6 epl sides

As you can see here...

image.thumb.png.dd89f03d3ce80ddc0bdffab0fc72456e.png

image.thumb.png.3274811900b9d8203d3309bf740821eb.png

image.thumb.png.5ac529309a5a7e0e37a741cc541e6854.png

image.thumb.png.42f1d6ac9fc28c7c9143286ca9bf8393.png

image.thumb.png.e4b63b8ab3c1be9902a9b928bb861430.png

image.thumb.png.4e3087392d463a9b79a898977ad5c09a.png

image.thumb.png.049ee71bcf8f4ee98d07922de08d42ec.png

image.thumb.png.7bf223da7ff1d6b56a0869d9a68b9944.png

image.thumb.png.5f6490005720e54e4ed040b5e9730e78.png

image.thumb.png.d43226d70694d7ac05f454da9aa4975c.png

image.thumb.png.f67a646e13033d6b9bba9bdbc3025638.png

image.thumb.png.759d15bd455c02a835546d66b653b49a.png

image.thumb.png.31d30a299d91281a57e4c2b34869b26c.png

image.thumb.png.1a7862e69b23abe4bc1954aee08b88d6.png

image.thumb.png.191f83ee2cf5320aeede7841cd1d2eb8.png

image.thumb.png.125d731882a6e2c43f5265e4d3b92986.png

image.thumb.png.9145c0c69ed4fc9a3a96046f02c17560.png

 

Maybe reputations of the clubs need to be adjusted accordingly to stop the epl clubs taking starters from those sides or add preferences to spanish, italian and german players at those big clubs to not play in england but it just shows why the epl clubs have been struggling irl in europe because they sign players from outside the top 6 in england to go straight in to their starting line ups or players from the non elite european sides as well as cast offs from the biggest european sides... they are signing the best of the rest and it shows irl but not in game

So if you think on papaer they have the best sides then huge CA increases are needed to teams like monaco, schalke, roma etc... because these are where these players are coming from not bayern, barca, real etc...

Alot of this could be league rep. At the end of 18 I done a late rangers save. Won the champions league 3 times in a row and got Scotland to 6th best league. Obviously league rep plays a factor but the amount of players Stoke would declare interest in and successfully unsettle players despite them not even being in Europa league. 

This could have changed in 19 but the reality that a mid table premier league side with no European assparations at present can demand the interest of the 3 times back to back champions league winners players doesn't feel right. 

Is it realistic that rangers win the champions league 3 times in a row would be a valid responce to that but I had a very successful scouting network who constantly found gems in smaller leagues. The real question would be why didn't the big elite teams come knocking before Stoke aswell. 

Actually alot didn't seem to work right in that situation. 

But point stands that at a top club outwith England it's impossible to keep your best players if that team can afford it. Even if you have a club rep matching that of Madrid and Barca and way above that of the English club in question. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Showerman said:

My biggest issue with this is that none of the EPL top 6 are improving their starting line ups/squads by signing the best players of those european sides each year, normally they will sign a player that is surplus to requirements from those sides you mentioned and aside from paul pogba for a world record fee none of the big european sides lost a starter to the top 6 epl sides

As you can see here...

[snip]

if you think on papaer they have the best sides then huge CA increases are needed to teams like monaco, schalke, roma etc... because these are where these players are coming from not bayern, barca, real etc...

Your list demonstrates that they're good at mopping up star players of sides that are positioned between second and sixth in the other major European leagues though. Salah, Mhkitaryan, Aubameyang, Alisson, Kepa, Jorginho, Laporte and plenty of other first team regulars in the top six sides in France, Germany, Italy and even Spain. No 'huge CA increases' are needed unless these players have a Salah-like improvement - they were already amongst the top players at their club and in their league. It's just that the Premier League sides (even ones barely scraping the top four) can buy the best players from Roma and Schalke and Roma and several other near-top sides across the top European leagues, and Schalke and Roma can't buy the best players (or even useful first teamers) of the fifth and sixth placed English sides. 

As for the "big six" not taking starters from the likes of Real and Barcelona very often, whilst that's true it's also really only Coutinho that's moved in the other direction recently (Bale was five years ago now, and at the smallest of the "big six") and it's not because none of the big European clubs could find a use for de Bruyne, Hazard or Salah...

 

I do agree that a preference for some of the top Spanish, German and especially Italian players to stay in their home country might be useful though there are some transfer preferences set up behind the scenes anyway.

Edited by enigmatic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minuti fa, Showerman ha scritto:

Maybe reputations of the clubs need to be adjusted accordingly to stop the epl clubs taking starters from those sides or add preferences to spanish, italian and german players at those big clubs to not play in england but it just shows why the epl clubs have been struggling irl in europe because they sign players from outside the top 6 in england to go straight in to their starting line ups or players from the non elite european sides as well as cast offs from the biggest european sides... they are signing the best of the rest and it shows irl but not in game

So if you think on papaer they have the best sides then huge CA increases are needed to teams like monaco, schalke, roma etc... because these are where these players are coming from not bayern, barca, real etc...

Very interesting take...

They also OVERPAY the best of the rest, so it feels much better than it actually is... Kinda in a "well, if Top English Club signed him, he must be a Top Player" way.

1 ora fa, theonets ha scritto:

I feel Serie A is a level below, I've actually been to a few games here in Bologna, and the quality is miles away from the EPL (Granted, I've only ever been to a couple of Arsenal games live, so maybe a bit unfair).

Well, if you take Bologna as a reference, of course Serie A looks terrible by comparison... The side is crap, and Top Teams visiting surely don't come to play a spectacular game either but will be happy to bring 3 points home.
Italy's biggest flaw is how defensive smaller teams play against Top Clubs. Few will dare to bring the game to Juve or Napoli, thus producing drab matches where one side attacks and the other defends. But when things open up a bit (see Napoli-Empoli last weekend), it gets entertaining and we can see good football from both sides.

Of course I don't think Serie A Top 6 are better, but it's coming back. Juventus are an actual Top European side, Napoli are on their way and even Roma and Inter can compete against England's finest

4 ore fa, santy001 ha scritto:

In fact, in recent years, the most common story coming from Spain has been one of Real Madrid seemingly falling over themselves to throw it away domestically. They've got 1 title win in the last 5 or 6 years in Spain right? So how come this all conquering team in Europe, fail to take the opportunities presented to them at home?

Real wanted their 10th European Cup/Champions League. That was their goal and obsession.

Then they got it and wanted more... To such an extraordinary group of players, La Liga was almost an afterthought, a secondary trophy they'd sacrifice for the Top Prize. Maybe it wasn't a conscious choice, but CL was the priority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Your list demonstrates that they're good at mopping up star players of sides that are positioned between second and sixth in the other major European leagues though. Salah, Mhkitaryan, Aubameyang, Alisson, Kepa, Jorginho, Laporte and plenty of other first team regulars in the top six sides in France, Germany, Italy and even Spain. 

Fewer go in the other direction, and when they do it's usually because they actually are surplus to requirements

As for the "big six" not taking starters from the likes of Real and Barcelona very often, whilst that's true it's also really only Coutinho that's moved in the other direction recently (Bale was five years ago now, and at the smallest of the "big six") and it's not because none of the big European clubs could find a use for de Bruyne, Hazard or Salah...

 

I do agree that a preference for some of the top Spanish, German and especially Italian players to stay in their home country might be useful though there are some transfer preferences set up behind the scenes anyway.

Problem with FM currently is that clubs such as United and City are buying Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich players.. While IRL it still is the other way around, you forgot about Courtois? Real, Barca and Bayern (and even Atlético & Juve) are still way ahead in terms of reputation and achievements in the European tournaments..

Take a look at this list. Of your "big six" only City, Arsenal and Liverpool are somewhat performing..

Premier League strength to me is WAY overrated.. 

 

image.thumb.png.3fa084ca0ecb974ef05eb383b3108ddb.png

Edited by Samelders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minuti fa, enigmatic ha scritto:

I do agree that a preference for some of the top Spanish, German and especially Italian players to stay in their home country might be useful though there are some transfer preferences set up behind the scenes anyway.

First time I agree with you :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EPL sides are dominating in Europe, when we look on paper the squads its not a surprise.  People ask why have you taken a look through the squad you see world class talent. It all comes down to money, The EPL is by far the richest league in world football which means they can afford more to spend on players. Out side of Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG and Juve to an extent which other club has spending power of EPL clubs? Midtable EPL clubs can spend way more than midtable clubs in any league. 

Don\t believe look at the prize money table.

Now if the team that's being regulated is making more money than team that wins there league what do you expect is gonna happen?  Then we\re not even talking about debt, commercial revenue etc. When a team in FM buys a 100m player he is worthy of the price tag, IRL 100m player could be valued at 50 based on his stats in FM.

 

And you can't ask SI to add certain traits to players like won't play in England when that player doesn't state that. You also can't expect a game based on numbers to not favour the teams with better numbers. 

Premier LEague Prize money.jpg

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.20.56 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.23.36 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.22.01 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.22.09 AM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Samelders said:

Problem with FM currently is that clubs such as United and City are buying Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich players.. While IRL it still is the other way around, you forgot about Courtois? Real and Barca are still way ahead in terms of reputation and achievements in the European tournaments..

Take a look at this list. Of your "big six" only City, Arsenal and Liverpool are performing..

Premier League strength to me is WAY overrated.. 

 

image.thumb.png.3fa084ca0ecb974ef05eb383b3108ddb.png

Thing is, you also missed of the di Marias and Moratas of this world because there were other intangible factors behind the sale, like squad bloat and desire to be the main starter. I don't think you're doing the same for the FM transfers....

 

I'm not really sure that posting a bunch of coefficients proves anything about the squad strengths in 2019, never mind the squad strengths in 2022. Shaktar and Porto for example, have a higher coefficient than Liverpool because Liverpool have missed out on Champions League qualification a few times in a more competitive league despite Liverpool being the side that have reached a couple of European finals, and Shaktar being a side that's not won a knockout round since 2011. The tables @Amarante posted are far more relevant to why the sides that do best in the long run tend to be English ones.

Edited by enigmatic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Amarante said:

EPL sides are dominating in Europe, when we look on paper the squads its not a surprise.  People ask why have you taken a look through the squad you see world class talent. It all comes down to money, The EPL is by far the richest league in world football which means they can afford more to spend on players. Out side of Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG and Juve to an extent which other club has spending power of EPL clubs? Midtable EPL clubs can spend way more than midtable clubs in any league. 

Don\t believe look at the prize money table.

Now if the team that's being regulated is making more money than team that wins there league what do you expect is gonna happen?  Then we\re not even talking about debt, commercial revenue etc. When a team in FM buys a 100m player he is worthy of the price tag, IRL 100m player could be valued at 50 based on his stats in FM.

 

And you can't ask SI to add certain traits to players like won't play in England when that player doesn't state that. You also can't expect a game based on numbers to not favour the teams with better numbers. 

Premier LEague Prize money.jpg

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.20.56 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.23.36 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.22.01 AM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-06 at 10.22.09 AM.png

Fine, this is the input, but the output still is.. Spanish clubs are performing much better in Europe..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps some interesting numbers for you guys to sink your teeth into in this debate. It's all publicly available in terms of the CA's, you'd just have to go and collate it yourselves to work it out.

But there's a metric the research teams use and I won't mention specific figures but hopefully it proves informative.

* Please note the data might be a bit out of date due to changes during the beta etc *

- 1 English team in the top 5 CA squads in FM (and they are not top).

- 4 English teams in the top 10 CA squads.

- 6 English in the top 20, along with 6 Italian and 5 Spanish.

- 7 inside the top 30.

- Boca Juniors have a higher CA than roughly half the premier league teams, as do Atalanta.

- Celtic are higher than several Premier League teams (5). 

- The lowest Premier League team is the 125th best CA team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Amarante money doesn't prove anything and the fact that last 4 CL between all PL teams the best results have been a final and a semifinal I think makes it clear.

You can have money but is useless if you spend 66Mio € for Morata while someone else spent 40Mio € for Dybala, if you spend 25Mio € for Zappacosta while someone else spent 26Mio € for Alex Sandro or if you spend 40Mio for Bakayoko while someone else with literally less than 15Mio € bought Vidal, Pirlo and Pogba. I have nothing against Chelsea was just to explain my idea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Samelders said:

Fine, this is the input, but the output still is.. Spanish clubs are performing much better in Europe..

Yes how is SI suppose to calculate English clubs bottling it? and only 3 clubs are A. Madrid, Barcelona and Real Madrid who have historically perform better than 99% of the clubs in world football. 

English clubs have been underperforming everyone knows that but in SI they can't under perform to the extent of how they under perform in Europe in real life. Every simulation has this fault, there is only so much finite number of metrics you can judge by. These clubs are some of the biggest in the world make a whole lot of money and will attract better players as the game progress. 

Is it completely unrealstic that Dybala might end up at City that icardi turns up at Chelsea? No it isn't. In terms of exposure and wage being offered no club can match that of the English clubs. Madrid has to take out a loan to pay their wage bill Barcelona as well. United is paying back the Glazers debt and still making big money, City and Chelsea has billionaire owners, only PSG is really in that bracket that can afford the best without putting themselves in debt. 

A. Madrid has been successfully granted because of Simone.  Germany only Bayern is a credible threat, Serie A Roma and Napoli are good and can spring an upset but they are not seeing as contenders. Both Milan clubs are just now looking like they are coming back on top. That just leaves Barca and Real. 

Within the game World Barca and Real still buy the best of the best but you notice the decrease in spending power as the boards of these clubs aren't taking out loans to buy players like they do IRL. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

I'm not really sure that posting a bunch of coefficients proves anything about the squad strengths in 2019, never mind the squad strengths in 2022. Shaktar and Porto for example, have a higher coefficient than Liverpool because Liverpool have missed out on Champions League qualification a few times in a more competitive league despite Liverpool being the side that have reached a couple of European finals, and Shaktar being a side that's not won a knockout round since 2011. The tables @Amarante posted are far more relevant to why the sides that do best in the long run tend to be English ones.

Im not talking long run. I am talking premier league dominance from the start of every FM save game in both CL (City, Tottenham, Arsenal, United winning CL in the years 2018 to 2021, i did multiple tests) and Euro League (with even 7th premier league finisher reaches the final).. Ofcourse the European Football balance of power might change in the future, if the financial situation stays skewed.. More divergence will occur, but still England lacks quality of life, and a lot of latin players will tend to move to Southern Europe. Money in this case is no guarantee this will actually happen.. And then we have Brexit that could be disadvantageous for the premier league as well. I'm not telling premier league dominance is impossible in the future, but in FM this dominance is a given outcome, always happening in my saves, while I would'nt be so sure. 

Edited by Samelders

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, ParanoidBuddha said:

@Amarante money doesn't prove anything and the fact that last 4 CL between all PL teams the best results have been a final and a semifinal I think makes it clear.

You can have money but is useless if you spend 66Mio € for Morata while someone else spent 40Mio € for Dybala, if you spend 25Mio € for Zappacosta while someone else spent 26Mio € for Alex Sandro or if you spend 40Mio for Bakayoko while someone else with literally less than 15Mio € bought Vidal, Pirlo and Pogba. I have nothing against Chelsea was just to explain my idea

These are real-life values, and based on what Napoli owners stated there is an English club tax, so other clubs inflate the price of there players when selling to English clubs. That aside,  when you spend 40m in FM you are getting a player worthy of 40m, not an inflated 20m player, That's the difference.  The game can not distort the transfer market to reflect owners being petty and greedy and adding on special taxes for players because x club from England wants them. 

 

Like we stated above, on PAPER english clubs all have players that can win the UCL. They also have some of the best managers in world football as well. So when you add the Great Managers+ Great Squads+Great Budgets what do you think will happen? 

SI can\t predict the unpredictability of real-world football. 

Edited by Amarante

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, wardog said:

You mention Pogba is this the same Pogba who is clearly a very good footballer but has yet to produce the goods in a united **** and many united fans blaming him for?

Well, apparently I hold a mildly controversial view. I will try to address as many points as possible.

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Some of the Top Players haven't really impressed when it really mattered (ie. in CL knockout stages), so while players like CR7 and Messi are consistently a huge factor in CL later stages, some of the stars of EPL sides tend to disappear.

To be fair, CR7 and Messi are definitely rated higher than anyone in the EPL currently. Their stats are quite godly in game, and I think their CA is somewhere in the 190s.

 

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

It's likely that, in a vacuum, some of Utd, City or Spurs squad players are indeed worse than they're in FM. But had the researchers rated them 100% fairly, they'd have probably ended up being transfer-listed in game or weakened their side too much, making it less competitive compared to other Top Clubs.
So, in context, a few extra points here and there may be needed to keep the gameworld balanced and realistic. By being unrealistic...

 

However, I quickly checked FM18 db, and the CA of plenty of apparently overrated players isn't that high either!!! So there must be something more behind EPL sides consistently overachieving in CL and EL in the game...

I tend to agree with you there, some players do seem to be rated more highly because they are at bigger clubs. But as you say in the last part of your sentence, I do not think CA is the driving factor in this. It may contribute, but there are certainly other things at play. I will talk about one I think could be important at the end of this post.

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

And I surely don't need to "defend" Spanish football either, with 3 sides having been big players in recent years.

No, of course not. I do not really want to get into a "which league is the best" argument, because it is too subjective. The top class La Liga sides are excellent. Below that level, as we have seen in recent seasons, it is a bit of a revolving door. Teams having one good season and dropping off a bit. Kinda like Leicester did when they won the EPL.

 

2 hours ago, wardog said:

Would you say one third of the best players in the world play in the premier league? This is off CA and i wont mention the players. 
 

One third of how many? It could be entirely possible that 333 of the top 1000 players in the world play in the EPL. 3 of the top 9? I totally buy that, I could even name some candidates. Even 33 of the top 100 players in the world does not sound terribly unreasonable. This kind of thing is always entirely subjective, however.

2 hours ago, wardog said:

You mention Pogba is this the same Pogba who is clearly a very good footballer but has yet to produce the goods in a united **** and many united fans blaming him for

Well, he has had a poor patch, but does that really mean he was over rated? He played fine with France in the WC. He was great at Juventus. His team is playing badly, and his manager is stifling them a lot. Stick him back at Juventus, and he would be the same old player.

There is also one thing here that nobody has actually touched on, but which is super important. The reputation of a team (and perhaps the reputation of their league? I have no idea if that is important). The EPL reputations are generally high (I do not have the game to hand to check). This will strongly affect how teams play against each other. If a team has a lower rep, they will tend to be more defensive. Since I suspect the EPL teams have a higher starting rep, many more teams will be defensive against them. This is not what happens in real life, at all. Everyone knows that they can go and attack most English sides, and they do so, with aplomb. I think this is another area that warrants further consideration (and can even be checked a little bit).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minuti fa, Amarante ha scritto:

These are real-life values, and based on what Napoli owners stated there is an English club tax, so other clubs inflate the price of there players when selling to English clubs. That aside,  when you spend 40m in FM you are getting a player worthy of 40m, not an inflated 20m player, That's the difference.  The game can not distort the transfer market to reflect owners being petty and greedy and adding on special taxes for players because x club from England wants them. 

Of course they add money if you offer the soul even for average players! Who wouldn't? :D 
I agree that in the game it can't be replicated but at least at the beginning of it I wouldn't expect a PL dominance because in real life it isn't like that. That's it

Edited by ParanoidBuddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

here is also one thing here that nobody has actually touched on, but which is super important. The reputation of a team (and perhaps the reputation of their league? I have no idea if that is important). The EPL reputations are generally high (I do not have the game to hand to check). This will strongly affect how teams play against each other. If a team has a lower rep, they will tend to be more defensive. Since I suspect the EPL teams have a higher starting rep, many more teams will be defensive against them. This is not what happens in real life, at all. Everyone knows that they can go and attack most English sides, and they do so, with aplomb. I think this is another area that warrants further consideration (and can even be checked a little bit).

Yes that's a factor but let's be real, the Top 6 in England are word class clubs. So they are deserved of there status. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minuti fa, Amarante ha scritto:

Like we stated above, on PAPER english clubs all have players that can win the UCL. They also have some of the best managers in world football as well. So when you add the Great Managers+ Great Squads+Great Budgets what do you think will happen? 

SI can\t predict the unpredictability of real-world football. 

That's your (you and other PL teams fans) thought but the truth is that with all that money, top coaches and ''top players ''during the last 4 years in champions league you finished once in final and once in semifinal, nothing else. 

In the longterm btw I agree that PL teams will probably improve faster than others

Edited by ParanoidBuddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, santy001 said:

 

  Hide contents

 

- 1 English team in the top 5 CA squads in FM (and they are not top).

- 4 English teams in the top 10 CA squads.

- 6 English in the top 20, along with 6 Italian and 5 Spanish.

- 7 inside the top 30.

- Boca Juniors have a higher CA than roughly half the premier league teams, as do Atalanta.

- Celtic are higher than several Premier League teams (5). 

- The lowest Premier League team is the 125th best CA team.

 

Well, since 7 clubs are playing in Europe: this might be part of the problem: "6 English in the top 20, along with 6 Italian and 5 Spanish" If we take a look at the coëfficients and thus the perfomances in Europe in the past years, Spanish clubs might be a little bit underestimated in my opinion!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Samelders The immediate point though, is this isn't Champions League/Europa League Manager 2019. So relying any point so heavily on the coefficients is very flawed. The FIFA world rankings aren't the way national teams are sorted for example. While it's different, it's still got the same point since the coefficients are ultimately trying to rank teams without them directly playing each other in most cases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Well, apparently I hold a mildly controversial view. I will try to address as many points as possible.

To be fair, CR7 and Messi are definitely rated higher than anyone in the EPL currently. Their stats are quite godly in game, and I think their CA is somewhere in the 190s.

 

I tend to agree with you there, some players do seem to be rated more highly because they are at bigger clubs. But as you say in the last part of your sentence, I do not think CA is the driving factor in this. It may contribute, but there are certainly other things at play. I will talk about one I think could be important at the end of this post.

No, of course not. I do not really want to get into a "which league is the best" argument, because it is too subjective. The top class La Liga sides are excellent. Below that level, as we have seen in recent seasons, it is a bit of a revolving door. Teams having one good season and dropping off a bit. Kinda like Leicester did when they won the EPL.

 

One third of how many? It could be entirely possible that 333 of the top 1000 players in the world play in the EPL. 3 of the top 9? I totally buy that, I could even name some candidates. Even 33 of the top 100 players in the world does not sound terribly unreasonable. This kind of thing is always entirely subjective, however.

Well, he has had a poor patch, but does that really mean he was over rated? He played fine with France in the WC. He was great at Juventus. His team is playing badly, and his manager is stifling them a lot. Stick him back at Juventus, and he would be the same old player.

There is also one thing here that nobody has actually touched on, but which is super important. The reputation of a team (and perhaps the reputation of their league? I have no idea if that is important). The EPL reputations are generally high (I do not have the game to hand to check). This will strongly affect how teams play against each other. If a team has a lower rep, they will tend to be more defensive. Since I suspect the EPL teams have a higher starting rep, many more teams will be defensive against them. This is not what happens in real life, at all. Everyone knows that they can go and attack most English sides, and they do so, with aplomb. I think this is another area that warrants further consideration (and can even be checked a little bit).

I just want to be clear I wrote united shirt in original post seems autocorrect has overruled me on phone :(

 

13/32 is the figure I'm looking at. I don't want to mention names of more than that as that's not for this part of the form.

 

Pogba I can agree on. And there's some like kante I genuinely think could walk into most teams. 

however in general most are overrated and the way the buy from elite clubs doesn't reflect real life. This isn't an fm issue tho as FIFA career mode suffers same issues. But then it doesn't claim to aim for realism

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Available money is not necessarily correlated with quality when you factor in taxation, the varied costs of running the clubs, financial fair play measures, the scarcity of high-quality players and coaching, how different clubs are run (or how revenue is distributed), etc. There is an assumption that more revenue means more spending power means that all of the best players will necessarily accrue to English teams, and that simply isn't borne out in reality—not least because of cultural factors, youth development (where England still lags behind), and so on.

When you look at the actual success of English clubs in continental competitions over the past decade or so, and compare it to what FM games have consistently projected for them during that same period, there is a huge discrepancy!

(And everyone who doesn't exclusively follow English football knows it.)

For years, CM/FM players in England had bizarrely inflated physical stats over players in other leagues, and no one could make reasonable excuses for it beyond: "Uh, the English game is, uh, more demanding physically." Without any appeal to actual evidence beyond the eye test.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Double Indemnity said:

For years, CM/FM players in England had bizarrely inflated physical stats over players in other leagues, and no one could make reasonable excuses for it beyond: "Uh, the English game is, uh, more demanding physically." Without any appeal to actual evidence beyond the eye test.

 

Not that I necessarily disagree with EPL players being overrated, but Ibrahimovic just this week highlighted physicality as the main difference between EPL and the other leagues he has played in - https://www.goal.com/en/news/ibrahimovic-premier-league-is-overrated-imagine-what-i-could/1x9zy9fojhwue19ydbasihs3km

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Double Indemnity said:

Available money is not necessarily correlated with quality when you factor in taxation, the varied costs of running the clubs, financial fair play measures, the scarcity of high-quality players and coaching, how different clubs are run (or how revenue is distributed), etc. There is an assumption that more revenue means more spending power means that all of the best players will necessarily accrue to English teams, and that simply isn't borne out in reality—not least because of cultural factors, youth development (where England still lags behind), and so on.

When you look at the actual success of English clubs in continental competitions over the past decade or so, and compare it to what FM games have consistently projected for them during that same period, there is a huge discrepancy!

(And everyone who doesn't exclusively follow English football knows it.)

For years, CM/FM players in England had bizarrely inflated physical stats over players in other leagues, and no one could make reasonable excuses for it beyond: "Uh, the English game is, uh, more demanding physically." Without any appeal to actual evidence beyond the eye test.

It's not even that physical a league when compared to an even less technical league like the spfl for example. Or lower down in England 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, santy001 said:

@Samelders The immediate point though, is this isn't Champions League/Europa League Manager 2019. So relying any point so heavily on the coefficients is very flawed. The FIFA world rankings aren't the way national teams are sorted for example. While it's different, it's still got the same point since the coefficients are ultimately trying to rank teams without them directly playing each other in most cases.

The Coëfficients are clearly showing us the performance in Europa of the Premier League teams isn't that great.. It's a trend! Ofcourse this might change in the future, but still the DIRECT dominance of the premier league in EVERY FM game I have ever played (always taking over La Liga after a couple of years) isn't following this trend and thus is unrealistic in my opinion.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Samelders said:

 So how do we explain this than?

 image.thumb.png.d5378eb4d82b4e3b80fc1bf6b545b972.png

1

What is there to explain, exactly? Obviously Spain has outperformed England in recent European competitions. There are so many reasons for this, not just squad quality. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe there needs to be a 'Momma I've made it' mechanism. If a player goes from earning buttons and then earns more than they thought was possible playing in their own country, this effects their mental stats i.e. determination, ambitions, consistency, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's amazing how even when @santy001 presents actual stats which prove that the English clubs' squads are behind the big European clubs in game, everyone ignores them to continue their tirade that they're massively overrated...

 

Perhaps they'd be better off noting that whilst Real Madrid's squad is much better than Man Utd's, it's also got several ultra high reputation players the wrong side of 30, which the AI tends to be too slow to replace, and tend to underperform badly in match engines as soon as they shed pace. Whereas Man Utd having mediocre defenders is usually fixed by the AI in the first possible transfer window. And pretty much everyone acknowledges that the actual response of English clubs to not doing particularly well in Europe or domestically has been to go on spending sprees on top players.

There's a valid argument that the AI could be a lot better at squad development (and that old players lose their usefulness too quickly in FM), but equally I think it's a lot more likely that Real have some leaner years or embark on failed Galactico experiments again than it is they win the Champions League for the next four years in a row. Barcelona's squad isn't exactly young either. And if they screw up the squad building, we're not going to see Athletic Bilbao or Sevilla splash the cash better. 

I realise that screaming into the void about how the evil English developers are making their teams too powerful is satisfying, but sometimes paying attention to what you're arguing about helps.

Can't help noticing that as well as a lot of English teams making 2019 finals in my holiday saves, there's also lot of Italian sides in Europa League finals, something which hasn't happened this century. Funny how nobody's complaining about this...         

 

53 minutes ago, wardog said:

It's not even that physical a league when compared to an even less technical league like the spfl for example. Or lower down in England 

Depends what you mean by "that physical". Premier League players are on average a fair bit fitter, quicker and (where needed) better in the air than the lower tiers of English football or Scottish top tier, but obviously they're also better all round footballers and so most Premier League managers play a game that's more about organization and possession. On the other hand, if you're comparing it with La Liga, English sides tends to play a more direct and higher tempo style and be more imposing physical specimens than the typical non-elite La Liga player

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Menion said:

Maybe there needs to be a 'Momma I've made it' mechanism. If a player goes from earning buttons and then earns more than they thought was possible playing in their own country, this effects their mental stats i.e. determination, ambitions, consistency, etc.

This is already in the game. Anything more prominent would just exacerbate issues further in all likelihood it would just impact players rocking up in Spain/Germany/Italy just as much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We don't know why EPL teams sucks, is it the lack of winter break, is the league so hard to breaks the players...

 

There is many guesses, but no one actually knows why England suck, so because on paper everything look fine, the simulation gets it wrong, so what can they do than wait for the day someone figure out why what seems like 5-6 worldclass EPL teams can't deal with what seems like lower level continental teams.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, wardog said:

As for using Atletico "squeezing" past Arsenal thus 6 teams in England are as good as Spains top three - genuinely unsure if this is a troll comment or not. Burnley barely got past Aberdeen over 2 legs and needed extra time. City failed to beat Celtic two years ago. Is Scotlands top 2 as good as Englands top 7 and thus as good as Spains top 3? Aberdeen in turned have failed to beat Rangers in the league in 2 years does that make Rangers that good aswell, and they lost to the 4th best team in Luxemborg last season, are the 4th best team in Luxemborg thus as good as the English top 7 and thus Spains top 3? Looking at one result in isolation  becomes a very dangerous game here as by process of 3 results Ive now got Progres as good as Barcelona. Not to mention that Atletico aren't a team that goes out and blows teams away, their very well organized and hard working and earn small victories consistently. 

9

Maybe you should have a look at the stats of the Atletico vs Arsenal games ;) As for the rest, I'm trying to compare Spain top 3 with England top 6, using this as an example. I'm not sure what you are doing, dragging Burnley into it. Yes, Sevilla beat Man Ut, Spurs beat Madrid, Madrid beat Liverpool and maybe we should include Sevilla and make Spain a top 4. But they haven't been performing in the league and got knocked out by Leicester in a recent CL knockout round. The top 3 of Spain are better than ANY top 6 English team on recent European merit. But given time, 

 

3 hours ago, wardog said:

The point i was making in regards to midtable teams and players going to top teams but you assume im talking about English top teams. In the last few years we've seen Stones and Sterling go for 50m to city from Everton and Liverpool respective - before Liverpool started to become a proper force again - Would either of these players be starters at Barca, Real, PSG, Juve or Bayern. In my honest opinion no. Someone else mentions here Pep got asked if Sterling was the best player in the world by the media. Is he even is the discussion really? Is he even the best player at city never mind the world. This is what I mean. Yes the teams i selected at random maybe aren't the best options but also highlights that that depth that people mention the premier league has, it really doesn't. The top 6 are starting to pull away again but they still arent close to the Elite clubs of Europe despite the millions in extra tv revenue. The one saving grace they might have is all these sides have aging squads and likely in the near future could very well have a blip. But thats them regressing not the English league stepping up. Again this could be represented in game but would be 2-3 years to show rather than instant. 

8

There has never been a great migration of English players to the clubs you mention. Does that mean they couldn't have played for those clubs? No, of course not. Teams buy from inside their own league more often, that's absolutely natural, Spanish teams attract more South Americans, that's also a given. Sterling and Stones would play games for Madrid or Barca, absolutely, but they both went above-market price because English teams need English players, ruling out a move abroad. The middle teams in England are buying the best players from middle teams in top leagues, or from the best teams in the second tier. There are soooo many things clouding this debate, and I'll never get around to covering them all. But I can share a few interesting observations in the Spain vs England debate:

Coefficient-wise: too few teams placing 3rd in CL groups and dropping to the Europa League. Falling at the first knockout round looks worse than making the EL semi, and certainly gets you fewer points. I'm really not sure this reflects reality.

The traditions of the leagues are different. Because the EPL is so tough, other than the top 6 clubs (and sometimes even them too), qualifying for the EL means a very hard league start. Burnley this year: 1-1-4 start, Everton 17/18: literally in 16th place when knocked out of the EL group phase with a fired manager, West Ham 16/17:  1-0-5 start, Southampton 15/16, 18th place when knocked out. These clubs all recovered to improve their standings significantly (Burnley pending..), but it's striking to see this 4 years running. I left out Leicester, but they obviously also struggled domestically and fired their title-winning coach during their CL run. Does that mean the 7th place English team is bad? Probably. But it could also mean they value Premier League safety over getting to the EL knockout round or even group stage. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

It's amazing how even when @santy001 presents actual stats which prove that the English clubs' squads are behind the big European clubs in game, everyone ignores them to continue their tirade that they're massively overrated...

 

Perhaps they'd be better off noting that whilst Real Madrid's squad is much better than Man Utd's, it's also got several ultra high reputation players the wrong side of 30, which the AI tends to be too slow to replace, and tend to underperform badly in match engines as soon as they shed pace. Whereas Man Utd having mediocre defenders is usually fixed by the AI in the first possible transfer window. And pretty much everyone acknowledges that the actual response of English clubs to not doing particularly well in Europe or domestically has been to go on spending sprees on top players.

 

but they are not signing these "top players" from top sides as i previously posted...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Showerman said:

but they are not signing these "top players" from top sides as i previously posted...

Is there a reason you chose to totally ignore my detailed response to that and replied to a different post making a different point instead?

Kind of hard to believe you're not just trolling when you do that

Edited by enigmatic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/11/2018 at 11:00, santy001 said:

It's tough to get right, there's more money in the premier league, and more often than not the leagues that have these teams in that are getting the better of English teams are also selling on their better players to English teams.

There's a very much intangible element to it, replicating the psychology of players at smaller clubs being motivated to step up their game in these bigger games (thinking of more the lower co-efficient nation sides who have pulled off results against English teams) and even the other top leagues being better at getting the results. We have attributes that govern this, but you give the players at the lower club these good attributes and then they still are true once an English club buys them.

It is very much realistic that the players in Premier League have the highest CA. The clubs there are generally speaking buying them up from other leagues who have rated these players highly. I often mention this, an awful lot of players that Stoke signed from European clubs were only getting their CA decreased over time after coming to Stoke. Mame Diouf, Xherdan Shaqiri and Marko Arnautovic all had higher CA's when they came to Stoke than they did a couple of seasons later. There's been many others, and it would be strange to think I'm the only one who experiences this. 

I don't know where the solution lies. Part of me thinks it lies somewhere tactically, but then the problem just reiterates a level higher up, premier league clubs can still sign the best coaches so any with successful approaches in game around Europe will filter back to where the money is more often than not. 

Maybe its somewhere more left-field, do we need to be looking perhaps at the ambition of premier league players, and should SI be looking at the systems a bit more that deal with complacency and player motivation once they reach the top? Or is it something in the champions league/europa league itself in game? Are these matches flagging as big matches (which they are in one regard) even when against a team they should on paper streamroll and aren't suffering any complacency because of the status of the competition?

It is not tough to get it right. Year after year the problem is the same: ALL English players are overrated. Literary all of them!

The reason is simple: SI is an English company and England is the largest market for the game.

If people want to play a normal game, they would have to open the editor, decrease CA and PA for ALL English players by at least 10 points, and decrease new player regen rating for England.

This issue was brought again and again in the last 15 years, and it will never change. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...