Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
RocheBag

Wide players with space to get a cross in dwell on ball

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, RocheBag said:

This happens over and over, several times a match. My wide men will be streaking down the wing, either onto a ball from the middle or dribbling himself. He'll have his marker beat, but instead of getting a ball in while he can he will just hold up the ball. He will wait and wait and either get tackled or finally try a cross after getting closed down which gets blocked every time.

You are right, but this is what happend because lot of people complains about crosses, to much goals from crosses. I think they are turned down a lot. Will see league statistic  % at crosses at the end of the season. There was lot of complain about players don't score from penalty now i notice my team is awarded penalty kick every game or every two games sometime even 2 penalties per match

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That happens to me too, my wide players just wait to be tackled. Look at the number of AI's winger made, most of them are when my wide players hold on the ball in the wide area

unrealistic-tackling-ability.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed that a complete wingback does not linger on his crosses when he reached the byline. His cross succession is way higher then on any other role. I believe a Winger on Attack duty might not linger either. His problem however is that dribbling is not working the way it should. Running with the ball without an opponent directly in sight goes quite well but a direct one vs one Always ends in the attacker being tackled. 

Other roles like wingback, fullback etc, take way too much time before they cross the ball and therefore get tackled a lot or the ball bounces outside to become a throw in or corner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I observe this problem too. I was just asking around on some Twitch streams yesterday and saw that some people in chat have it as well. Does anyone know if they addressed the issue somewhere?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/11/2018 at 01:34, RocheBag said:

This happens over and over, several times a match. My wide men will be streaking down the wing, either onto a ball from the middle or dribbling himself. He'll have his marker beat, but instead of getting a ball in while he can he will just hold up the ball. He will wait and wait and either get tackled or finally try a cross after getting closed down which gets blocked every time.

I have exactly the same problem with crosses getting blocked. Players in acres of space get closed down every single time. Tried all combinations of configurations... just seems like the wingers aren't direct enough and defenders are far too able to block crosses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for raising this discussion guys.

We are aware of this as an issue and currently have a bug open for it.

At times the recovering defender does well to get a block on the cross. But other times the wide player should cross the ball sooner.

Any extreme examples you see of this, please upload with PKM's

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CJ Ramson said:

Thanks for raising this discussion guys.

We are aware of this as an issue and currently have a bug open for it.

At times the recovering defender does well to get a block on the cross. But other times the wide player should cross the ball sooner.

Any extreme examples you see of this, please upload with PKM's

Cheers

Define Extreme? I do have PKMs where this happen 2-3 times a game but its more of the wide open space and stand still kind.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CJ Ramson said:

Thanks for raising this discussion guys.

We are aware of this as an issue and currently have a bug open for it.

At times the recovering defender does well to get a block on the cross. But other times the wide player should cross the ball sooner.

Any extreme examples you see of this, please upload with PKM's

Cheers

Happens quite a lot in this game.

Espanyol v Villarreal.pkm

Edited by Armistice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to be that guy saying your tactics, and in fact I'm not going to be. I'm just asking a question here.

But is it not your tactics.

A tiki-taka style or anything quick involving movement and quick 1-2 passes(Based on the premise that SI implied they want this to be realistic), wouldn't have that much crossing and instead they intend to look for a pass(if they just dwell and then lose it, then this is up for debate).

I may be wrong, but pretty sure City and Liverpool very rarely cross the ball, given their style and lack of height.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out the example match in these screenshots. 26 out of my 41 attempted crosses were intercepted. Only 8 were completed - so roughly 20% of crosses are making to their target and a whopping 63% are being intercepted/blocked

Contrast this with Morecambe, who attempted just 8 crosses but 3 completed (~37%) and 4 were intercepted (50%)

fm19-1.PNG

fm19-2.PNG

fm19-3.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, philburton said:

Check out the example match in these screenshots. 26 out of my 41 attempted crosses were intercepted. Only 8 were completed - so roughly 20% of crosses are making to their target and a whopping 63% are being intercepted/blocked

Contrast this with Morecambe, who attempted just 8 crosses but 3 completed (~37%) and 4 were intercepted (50%)

fm19-1.PNG

fm19-2.PNG

fm19-3.PNG

As has been said, PKMs with timed examples are what's needed. Screenshots are nice to look at, but doesn't help the testers or coders look under the hood. Screenshots are great if you want to explain an issue, but the PKM is important. :thup:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MatthewS17 said:

I may be wrong, but pretty sure City and Liverpool very rarely cross the ball, given their style and lack of height.

Contrary to popular belief City are actually 6th and Liverpool are 10th in total crosses attempted in the Premier League this season.

I think because so many teams defend the central areas with a lot of bodies, teams often attack from the wide areas to try and play around the central congestion.

Also, to echo the words of @HUNT3R could examples please get uploaded with PKM's and timings of when the incident happened.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MatthewS17 said:

I hate to be that guy saying your tactics, and in fact I'm not going to be. I'm just asking a question here.

But is it not your tactics.

A tiki-taka style or anything quick involving movement and quick 1-2 passes(Based on the premise that SI implied they want this to be realistic), wouldn't have that much crossing and instead they intend to look for a pass(if they just dwell and then lose it, then this is up for debate).

I may be wrong, but pretty sure City and Liverpool very rarely cross the ball, given their style and lack of height.

 

Whether they're looking to cross or pass the point is they're taking way too long to do it  I don't care if they cross or recycle possession, but right now they're just waiting to get tackled. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MatthewS17 said:

A tiki-taka style or anything quick involving movement and quick 1-2 passes(Based on the premise that SI implied they want this to be realistic), wouldn't have that much crossing and instead they intend to look for a pass(if they just dwell and then lose it, then this is up for debate).

I may be wrong, but pretty sure City and Liverpool very rarely cross the ball, given their style and lack of height.

tiki-taka in final third like FM17 ? where's that gone i wonder.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CJ Ramson said:

Contrary to popular belief City are actually 6th and Liverpool are 10th in total crosses attempted in the Premier League this season.

I think because so many teams defend the central areas with a lot of bodies, teams often attack from the wide areas to try and play around the central congestion.

Also, to echo the words of @HUNT3R could examples please get uploaded with PKM's and timings of when the incident happened.

Cheers

In context though City and Liverpool have more possession than most so really proportionately as a way to attack they'd be lower down the rankings in their utilisation of crossing to break down defences.

 

City were 15th last year albeit 5th the year before crosses attempted.

So year before last they really didn't play at the same level of last year...mendy back this year probably ramps up their number of crosses last year Vs this.

Also in 2016/17 man city had 60.9% of possession and in 2017/18 city had 66.4% of possession...with 63.9% this year...so interestingly the more possession they have had the less they cross it !!!

 

So last year saw a reduction in number of crosses of 14% on previous year yet at the same time they played better and scored 33% more goals.

Also city's proportion of goals (assists wise) is in the lowest 5 teams the last 2 full seasons come from crosses. So they're attacking/creating/scoring from much varied means than crossing 

If they're only 6th and 10th in absolute numbers of crosses but if crossing was their means to break down teams defending centrally attacking from the wide areas to play around the central congestion you'd actually expect them to be HIGHER on the crosses attempts table...as in because they have so much possession and if they attack from wide areas to try and play around central congestion to cross it to create goals then by simply having more instances of attacks then their crossing stats should be higher than other teams...that they're not higher on the table suggests that they actually utilise a cross as a means to attack/create disproportionately less than other teams.

Yes they do use it to vary their attack but they use width more as a nominal means to drag players out of position to slot players in elsewhere...not exclusively of course as one dimensional attacking is easily defended. City do tend to slot players into inside channels on side edges of penalty area for cut backs/short low crosses/pullbacks that you see sane/sterling et al do but again the means by which they work the ball into those inside channels is a lot more sophisticated than attacking from wide areas...they keep the likes of sane/sterling wide to leave room inside for operators like david silva/bernardo silva/de bruyne who work the ball into positions to get aguero in or sane and/or sterling or whomever in the inside channels but they can be slotted into those from central positions into those inside channels

 

So whilst yes in absolute numbers City have a relatively high number of crosses putting in the context of them having most possession and facing more deep lying defences than most other teams (if not all) then those numbers aren't that high and if one posits that they attack often from wide areas to try and play around the central congestion would imply they should be higher/highest end of the scale. 

That they're not would indicate that they actually utilise crossing less proportionately than other teams to attack and create and score goals. Of course, yes they will use it but the numbers suggest City means of attacking and creating to open up deep lying defences who flood the central zones with a lot of bodies in actual fact doesn't mean they are highly reliant on crosses because the central areas are blocked. They actually move the ball quite successfully in those positions and use width nominally to drag players out of positions to allow central positions more space and operate in to play one twos/dribbles/deft threaded passes to either put players straight in on goal from central hub or slot players into inside channels. I'm not saying this is exclusively the case obviously as varied attack is crucial and space can be very tight inside so they will always try something different but their primary target is not to go wide and cross so we should move away from the assumption that because the space centrally is tight teams will attack often from wide areas and cross it...as it's just not the case. They will still be able to attack and manoeuvre the ball through the central positions creating from those areas in addition to using width sometimes for crossing but less proportionately than other teams. 

Regularly City will switch the ball outside but to switch it back inside again...they're just not moving it outside to cross it and attack from the wide areas...they will look to get it outside pass/move and probe trying to drag defenders out of position or force a mistake and go back inside to take advantage of a positional error or whatever. They are far more inclined to move it inside to get a player on inside channel for cut back than an outside channel for a cross even and the way the attacks are formed and unfold are very different between how the ball is moved from out wide and then directly inside from wide with crossing rather than a more nuanced way of moving it into the inside channels so those two shouldn't be conflated and think they're the same thing in terms of wide play...the passes slotting players into these inside channels on either edge of penalty can be played from central positions even against a clogged up central area and require more aggressive off the ball movement of their players and more subtle passing inside.

Where attacking from outside from crossing requires a lot more blunt and basic movement and passing...as in you can position players out wide and move it there relatively directly and then cross it.

Another consideration is that playing against deep lying defences with central players blocking areas there...when the ball is moved outside to cross it gives players inside sufficient reaction time to adjust and drop to cope with cross and the ball effectively travels a longer distance (many times through the air) meaning it's into many bodies there as well so it's a less percentage play of having to connect with a cross

All in all whilst City/Liverpool are not the lowest of the teams in terms of numbers of crosses, with the way they play in terms of possession and territorial superiority and playing against low lying defences really if they moved play out wide to attack from there with crosses was a as prevalent as people perceive then you'd actually see much higher crossing numbers than they currently exhibit...that they don't means that despite these teams playing more low lying 'by numbers' defences width to cross isn't the factor people think and the ability to play in congested areas centrally whilst difficult isn't as difficult as people may believe it to be...and it certainly doesn't have the effect of forcing play out wide for crossing to be the primary way to break down these defences so it shouldn't be in FM either. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 ore fa, akkm ha scritto:

All in all whilst City/Liverpool are not the lowest of the teams in terms of numbers of crosses, with the way they play in terms of possession and territorial superiority and playing against low lying defences really if they moved play out wide to attack from there with crosses was a as prevalent as people perceive then you'd actually see much higher crossing numbers than they currently exhibit...that they don't means that despite these teams playing more low lying 'by numbers' defences width to cross isn't the factor people think and the ability to play in congested areas centrally whilst difficult isn't as difficult as people may believe it to be...and it certainly doesn't have the effect of forcing play out wide for crossing to be the primary way to break down these defences so it shouldn't be in FM either. 

well said. people here talk a lot without really knowing much about tactics. possession based teams use width primarily to create space in half-spaces and central corridor and not to attack down the flanks. there's a famous video of Henry explaining how Guardiola took him off the pitch once he went inside and scored a goal. his job was to stay wide in order to stretch the defence and create gaps, not to move inside looking for goal ;D 

more on the topic, if you really take time to analyze football, you will notice that good teams try to create various options with movement. Players in the team have different patterns of movement (one dropping deep, wide, one attacking depth on a diagonal run...). better the team, more options are created. based on reaction of the defensive unit, they will pick different option.

530666438_vasco_middlethird_organization.thumb.png.c3152ffe38223109f6745e8de128d26f.png

This is a rather mediocre team from a Brazilian top division. 

The first option after entering the middle third is to look for a direct pass behind the back line (red circle). Right winger #22 and CAM #6 look for runs behind the back line. However, this isn't an isolated movement. SC #11 and LW #38 (blue circle) drop deep in order to try and pull the defenders with them. If this happens, CAM and RW look to run into the gaps.

If defenders don't follow #38 and #11, there won't be space behind the back for #6 and #22. However, then they will likely have a safe short passing option in the central corridor (blue circle/passing line). From there, they can combine and try through the middle. Or, move the ball towards the flank (green rectangle #21). Notice that #21 is actually a central midfielder who switches position with the fullback (#27).

If all these combinations are denied by the opposition, they will either look to switch the point of attack towards the weak flank (green circle) or recycle possession.

Notice the initial positioning of the RB #13. he is really narrow. in fact, the whole team is really narrow. This is a result of their defensive plan. Each good team thinks about defending even when they attack. This team tends to stay compact so if they lose the ball they have numbers around the ball.

What I wanted to say is that football is way more complicated than what FM presents and it is impossible to get even close to what really happens in organized teams. there's more movement in this diagram than you will get in three matches in FM. 

all being said, being a game, FM does make a good job despite all shortcomings. however, it would take a fundamental change to make it anything close to what it is in real. this is primarely due to how roles/positions work in ME. If you select an IF he will look to do the same thing over and over in ME. In real, there is no IF. The player will do what you'd expect from an IF in one moment (#22 in above example), but completely different thing in another. In real, this depends on the team's gameplan and the way they create passing options, in FM, this doesn't exist. IF is always an IF. Not to mention that player have different tasks in different thirds of the pitch. to make it more complicate, they have different tasks/roles in different phases of play (plus on/off the ball) as well. none of this is replicated in game.

EDIT sorry for longer post... got carried away

Edited by MBarbaric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

What I wanted to say is that football is way more complicated than what FM presents and it is impossible to get even close to what really happens in organized teams. there's more movement in this diagram than you will get in three matches in FM. 

all being said, being a game, FM does make a good job despite all shortcomings. however, it would take a fundamental change to make it anything close to what it is in real. 

remember FM17 when you ticked work the ball into box with prefferably short passing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minuti fa, Mitja ha scritto:

remember FM17 when you ticked work the ball into box with prefferably short passing?

no :D still play fm16 cross simulator. Tried all versions but there were so little improvements since 16 that I didn't bother to stop my long term save in fm16. besides, all this sexy football in fm 17 was only possible due to poor defending where you could outpass the opposition even if you had numerical disadvantage in central corridor since wingers stood so wide leaving CM's isolated. don't make me start on defensive phase :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be clear, I was saying City / Liverpool do use crosses as one part of their attacking play. As I've seen many people say on here teams like City / Liverpool rarely use crosses when attacking. Both teams use wide forwards that play in the half spaces, while their full backs occupy the wide areas. When these full backs overlap (Robertson/Trent Mendy/Walker) they more than often cross or cut the ball back into the area. I never once suggested crossing is their primary way of creating goal scoring chances, simply that they utilise crossing as part of a varied attack.

8 hours ago, akkm said:

So last year saw a reduction in number of crosses of 14% on previous year yet at the same time they played better and scored 33% more goals.

Also city's proportion of goals (assists wise) is in the lowest 5 teams the last 2 full seasons come from crosses. So they're attacking/creating/scoring from much varied means than crossing.

The fact they used Delph LB for a large part of last season and he played quite inverted would impact these numbers. Mendy being back this season has increased the number of overlaps attempted on the left hand side and he's certainly contributed with crosses himself.

8 hours ago, akkm said:

That they're not would indicate that they actually utilise crossing less proportionately than other teams to attack and create and score goals. Of course, yes they will use it but the numbers suggest City means of attacking and creating to open up deep lying defences who flood the central zones with a lot of bodies in actual fact doesn't mean they are highly reliant on crosses because the central areas are blocked. They actually move the ball quite successfully in those positions and use width nominally to drag players out of positions to allow central positions more space and operate in to play one twos/dribbles/deft threaded passes to either put players straight in on goal from central hub or slot players into inside channels. I'm not saying this is exclusively the case obviously as varied attack is crucial and space can be very tight inside so they will always try something different but their primary target is not to go wide and cross so we should move away from the assumption that because the space centrally is tight teams will attack often from wide areas and cross it...as it's just not the case. They will still be able to attack and manoeuvre the ball through the central positions creating from those areas in addition to using width sometimes for crossing but less proportionately than other teams. 

I agree with your overall point about the patterns of play City use. Again, I never suggested City or Liverpool are reliant on crosses, just pointed out they are in fact 6th and 10th on total crosses attempted, which would suggest crossing is part of their attacking arsenal. Of course City dominate possession in most games and crosses do not make up the majority of their attacks, but I would suggest this is the reason why Pep wanted fast wing backs with good delivery into the box to give his team this option in the wide areas.

8 hours ago, akkm said:

All in all whilst City/Liverpool are not the lowest of the teams in terms of numbers of crosses, with the way they play in terms of possession and territorial superiority and playing against low lying defences really if they moved play out wide to attack from there with crosses was a as prevalent as people perceive then you'd actually see much higher crossing numbers than they currently exhibit...that they don't means that despite these teams playing more low lying 'by numbers' defences width to cross isn't the factor people think and the ability to play in congested areas centrally whilst difficult isn't as difficult as people may believe it to be...and it certainly doesn't have the effect of forcing play out wide for crossing to be the primary way to break down these defences so it shouldn't be in FM either.

Attacking wing backs have become popular in modern football partly due to wide forwards usually playing in the half space and cutting inside but also due to them being able to offer an outlet to overlap on the flanks. Most top teams, especially those that play a 4-3-3 will use an attacking wing back to provide width. They are often faced with 8/9 opposition bodies all defending the central areas and while some top teams attempt (both successfully and unsuccessfully) to play through this low block, sometimes it can be better to go around the outside. They will of course be less reliant on crosses overall, compared to a less technically gifted side, but there is no doubt in the importance this plays in modern football.

If you are seeing this too often in FM, please upload a PKM with timed examples of times a player could play centrally into an attackers feet or another type of pass, instead of going out wide. We would be happy to look through these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really interesting diagram you posted about player movement.

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

all being said, being a game, FM does make a good job despite all shortcomings. however, it would take a fundamental change to make it anything close to what it is in real. this is primarely due to how roles/positions work in ME. If you select an IF he will look to do the same thing over and over in ME. In real, there is no IF. The player will do what you'd expect from an IF in one moment (#22 in above example), but completely different thing in another. In real, this depends on the team's gameplan and the way they create passing options, in FM, this doesn't exist. IF is always an IF. Not to mention that player have different tasks in different thirds of the pitch. to make it more complicate, they have different tasks/roles in different phases of play (plus on/off the ball) as well. none of this is replicated in game.

With the amount of different Player Roles, Team Instructions and Player Instructions in FM I believe you can in fact create some great off the ball movement. Using certain role combinations with different team instructions will give you different outcomes. A player role wouldn't be a player role if they didn't consistently show certain patterns of behaviour. You can use player instructions to give some individuality to the role or try and modify the roles and duties around him to create different off the ball movements and passing angles.

The way a player will act playing in a high tempo, direct passing tactic will differ to how he will act playing the same role in a lower tempo, short passing tactic. I feel we have started to touch on the phases of play as a team (in/out of possession) and not every role will behave the same in these phases. 

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

no :D still play fm16 cross simulator. Tried all versions but there were so little improvements since 16 that I didn't bother to stop my long term save in fm16. besides, all this sexy football in fm 17 was only possible due to poor defending where you could outpass the opposition even if you had numerical disadvantage in central corridor since wingers stood so wide leaving CM's isolated. don't make me start on defensive phase :D

If you have any suggestions on how the ME / Tactics could better show what you're hoping to see, please upload a PKM with timed examples. However I'm unsure quite how much of FM19 you've been playing :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so I've given up playing the game til the Match Engine is sorted, it's just not enjoyable when you're pissing on teams and losing 3-0. See the attached pkm.

Started the match with my 2 wingers on "attack" mentality, which resulted in Zeli (my right winger) getting caught offside nearly every time the ball went near him. Switched wingers to support in the 2nd half and CWBs to attack, which resulted in better play but almost constant blocked crosses and shots. Yawn.

60% possession, 13 shots, 3 on target, 0 goals. AFC Wimbledon 13 shots and 7 on target, scoring 3 goals.

Also, check out what my centre half does on 46mins. Sort it out SI!

AFC Wimbledon v Walsall.pkm

Edited by philburton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/11/2018 at 13:32, Amarante said:

Define Extreme? I do have PKMs where this happen 2-3 times a game but its more of the wide open space and stand still kind.

 

Any example where the player in the wide area is free and has an opportunity to cross the ball but he delays until a defender comes back and makes the block.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, philburton said:

Ok, so I've given up playing the game til the Match Engine is sorted, it's just not enjoyable when you're pissing on teams and losing 3-0. See the attached pkm.

Started the match with my 2 wingers on "attack" mentality, which resulted in Zeli (my right winger) getting caught offside nearly every time the ball went near him. Switched wingers to support in the 2nd half and CWBs to attack, which resulted in better play but almost constant blocked crosses and shots. Yawn.

60% possession, 13 shots, 3 on target, 0 goals. AFC Wimbledon 13 shots and 7 on target, scoring 3 goals.

Also, check out what my centre half does on 46mins. Sort it out SI!

AFC Wimbledon v Walsall.pkm

Without looking deeper into your tactics I couldn't offer advice or an explanation on why you were unable to score.

Sounds like you were quite unlucky, I know it can be frustrating but this does happen to teams IRL. 

What does your centre half do on 46mins? This isn't a place for clickbait :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, when you play with AML/ST/AMR and you have possession in the final third, these players are acting like statues. They dont move at all in the oppositon's box and are constantly marked. We can talk all day how teams attack in real life when your front 3 in FM19 is static like a bunch of trees and can't drag defenders from their positions to open up  spaces no matter what roles/instructions you give them. This is also a big problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, CJ Ramson said:

What does your centre half do on 46mins? This isn't a place for clickbait :D

Under very little pressure he chooses to boot it against my central midfielder who is 5 yards away, it then ricochets beautifully in to the path of their striker who ends up through 1-on-1. Thankfully he missed.

Whilst I think there's a few major issues with the ME, stuff like this grinds my gears - players at any level wouldn't make this kind of mistake, if they did, it'd be so rare it would make it on to a comedy defending video on YouTube and used by soccer am for 10 years after.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

Also, when you play with AML/ST/AMR and you have possession in the final third, these players are acting like statues. They dont move at all in the oppositon's box and are constantly marked. We can talk all day how teams attack in real life when your front 3 in FM19 is static like a bunch of trees and can't drag defenders from their positions to open up  spaces no matter what roles/instructions you give them. This is also a big problem.

Yep, really disappointed with strikers movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Understandable why you would be frustrated, no one wants to see this.

15 minutes ago, philburton said:

Under very little pressure he chooses to boot it against my central midfielder who is 5 yards away, it then ricochets beautifully in to the path of their striker who ends up through 1-on-1. Thankfully he missed.

We are aware of this rare issue and will add your example to be investigated in to.

32 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

Also, when you play with AML/ST/AMR and you have possession in the final third, these players are acting like statues. They dont move at all in the oppositon's box and are constantly marked. We can talk all day how teams attack in real life when your front 3 in FM19 is static like a bunch of trees and can't drag defenders from their positions to open up  spaces no matter what roles/instructions you give them. This is also a big problem.

The movement on the central striker is something we are looking in to and working on. If you feel like you are seeing really bad movement, please upload a PKM (in a separate thread lets try and keep this on topic) with timed examples of the lack of movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 ore fa, CJ Ramson ha scritto:

just pointed out they are in fact 6th and 10th on total crosses attempted, which would suggest crossing is part of their attacking arsenal.

of course, crossing is (fundamental) part of attacking arsenal for almost all teams. nobody serious would deny this. however, nobody who is serious about analysis in football will rely purely on numbers of crosses when it comes to the way a team plays. quantitative analysis is way too reductive to really tell you how, and above all, why things on the pitch happen. i.e. if you look at a heat map of average player position, you may see two wingers being in the center of the pitch. With this information, you might conclude that these two wingers were moving inside. However, if you actually watch the game, you would see they simply switched sides and actually played as pure wingers all game long. 

Same for crosses, reasons why some teams play crosses differ and simple numbers don't tell you nearly enough. That is why a qualitative analysis is way more important in most cases than quantitative. 

I've taken a look at Man City last match v Southampton (played v 10 men since 7th minute), which isn't representative at all but it provides some insight when you compare crosses they produced in real and in game. So, in pure numbers, they had:

a total of 12 crosses

3 of those came after a corner kick and one after a rebound so 8 crosses from open play in positional attacks.

dir.thumb.png.81df28e17eb819e2a1e7cb861d90789e.png

1 - RW after a direct ball behind the back line;

additional remarks: CITY in positional attack - occupying half spaces with five players 

notice the switch of position between the LW#19 and CM#21 to open space for passing lane on the left

 

switch.thumb.png.3f45ba69c64cd8888aaa48544e5851d9.png

1- RB after a switch 

City creating an overload on the left, occupying half spaces with 5 players. As the opposition prevents the overload, the ball is switched towards the right flank (green circle). The space is created by RW #7 moving inside dragging the opposition full back inside and opening space on the flank. Notice the narrow positioning of RB#2 which serves two purposes: a) provides short passing option b) assures narrow shape if the ball is lost

 

610625531_cmunderlap.thumb.png.a3c1d94c6aa7f89bfab4c2c8968daeca.png

2 - LCM after an underlap

Again, city in their positional attack. On the left, you see the RW#7 moving inside and dropping deep to open passing lane in the half space while the FB#2 now stays high and wide assuring there is space for #7 in the half space. However, the ball moves towards the left half space where #21 drops deeper into the half space, between the lines to receive the pass. Addititonal numbers to achieve numerical parity/advantage in the half-space are created by the CB#14 moving up the pitch. The ball is played wide to the W#19 and he is supported by the CM#21 with an underlapping run (green circle). Notice how he is provided with two options in the box: a) SC#10 and RW#7 attack the 6yard box while RCM#20 attacks the edge of the box.

On the right side we see the same pattern. The difference is that the left flank is reached with a direct pass from deep (notice the width of the team) instead of playing through the half space. This time, the space is created with off the ball movement from SC#10 (moving wide), LW#19 (moving inside). However, while plaers switch positions, the shape remains very much the same. Off the ball movement creates space and the man on the ball is provided support with an underlapping run from LCM#19

 

1724727597_overlapFB.thumb.png.726eca5ba1b0d15ac0945c5a1fc8f9a9.png

2 - LB on overlap 
On the left side, the team is in their very wide 4-1-4-1 shape as seen all the time. Space for a pass is created by a rotation on the left flank where LW#19 makes a diagonal run offering a direct passing option. This movement is not isolated and LCM#21 shifts to left wing while SC#10 drops deeper into the half space where was the LCM#21. This movement creates gaps and opens passing lanes towards the flank. Space for the cross is made by an overlapping LB#22. Notice how the SC#10 moves on support exactly as LCM#21 did in examples before. However, the LB has enough space and can cross the ball without need of supporting player. 

Again, he is offered two passing options. Two players attacking the goal and RCM#20 offering a back pass option on the edge of the box.

On the right side... this time attack starts from a deeper position with the LCM#21 coming deep to pick the ball but that is entirely different phase not a subject here. However, if you take a look at the development, you see how it ends and you see similarities with previous examples.

 

individual_deep.thumb.png.e7b2c5d8b132632b774ed1cb3d0f9cff.png

1 - LB individual and 1 - LW Deep

 

These both examples have two things in common. They occur very high up the pitch where the team plays against a very deep opposition. Only significant movement here is the SC#10 dropping deep to offer a short passing option while the RCM#20 and RW#7 move in opposite direction to attack the goal. The LW tries a speculative crossing attempt that comes to nothing.

On the right side, we see a similar example with little movement. Instead of recycling possession or waiting for better movement, the FB#22 decides to go on an individual run losing the ball. If you watch the clip, you see #7 being frustrated with #22 as he obviously doesn't follow the team plan.

 

CONCLUSION:

I think you can see a clear path (in this match) how City went about action in wide area. 
A few things repeat themselves:

a) rotation of players. Players have their positions, but they all move from one position to the other in order to create gaps. So a CM is a CM only nominaly, and in one instant he may be a LW and in another a SC.

b) the team shape stays largely intact despite rotations

c) When the ball is wide, there is always support for the player on the ball. Either by an overlapping full back or underlapping CM.

d) there are two crosses over the whole game that are truly aimless.

Later I will take a look at a random match in the game and see how Man City does there.

6 ore fa, CJ Ramson ha scritto:

Most top teams, especially those that play a 4-3-3 will use an attacking wing back to provide width. They are often faced with 8/9 opposition bodies all defending the central areas and while some top teams attempt (both successfully and unsuccessfully) to play through this low block, sometimes it can be better to go around the outside.

 

The problem isn't that it is better to go around, the problem is the way you go around. Do you just switch the ball around or do your players move to actually make it harder for the opposition to cover the space.

6 ore fa, CJ Ramson ha scritto:

With the amount of different Player Roles, Team Instructions and Player Instructions in FM I believe you can in fact create some great off the ball movement. Using certain role combinations with different team instructions will give you different outcomes. A player role wouldn't be a player role if they didn't consistently show certain patterns of behaviour. You can use player instructions to give some individuality to the role or try and modify the roles and duties around him to create different off the ball movements and passing angles.

2

No doubt. However, I'd like to investigate how consistent this is and how it compares to real football.

Cheers!

 

EDIT: tried to watch the City game in the demo, but for some reason, it is impossible to view anything but your own matches. Am I missing something?

Edited by MBarbaric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CJ Ramson said:

With the amount of different Player Roles, Team Instructions and Player Instructions in FM I believe you can in fact create some great off the ball movement. Using certain role combinations with different team instructions will give you different outcomes. A player role wouldn't be a player role if they didn't consistently show certain patterns of behaviour. You can use player instructions to give some individuality to the role or try and modify the roles and duties around him to create different off the ball movements and passing angles.

but why doesn't AI choose some interesting combination like it used to in FM17. all AI plays the same 4-3-3 with two B2B midfileders, DM and two wingers usually playing them on opposite side of their preffered foot?! (this was slightly improved on last patch)

both wingers on attack who duty don't do much in defending to help against overlapping fullbacks. i might be wrong but i'm not sure if i have ever seen wide forwards doing almost nothing in real life, maybe Messi and Ronaldo but both for totally different reasons and allways the other winger would play deeper in defense. not to mention that the fullbacks crossing issue would improve a lot if wide forwards would defend properly, at least trying to block passing lanes more effectivly. in this ME switching flanks looks too easy because of wide forwards strange defensive behaviour. I'm not saying they should allways be on the right spot but i have to notice that fullbacks seem to be on the right spot consistantly. i also wonder why wide forwards can't exploit fullbacks' attacking adventures on the counter attack.

while i can undestand what both wingers on attack wanted to achieve in 4-3-3, i can't grasp why AI chooses to play whole AM strata on attack duty as main tactics for game in 4-2-3-1.  there's 4 players doing very little defending and in attack they just pack in the box.

Edited by Mitja

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This issue, combined with not playing central through balls (on the ground, from attacking midfield) makes the game pretty difficult right now.

At the moment there are very few central through balls played on the ground. As a result, if you play a low tempo short passing system, a lot of play ends up out wide. Rather than resolving the central through play issue, this ME has nerfed players with the ball out wide. 

I think the issue could be improved by working on central through balls. It would reduce the amount the ball ends up out wide, and then there would be less need to nerf it.

Edited by pauly15

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CJ Ramson said:

To be clear, I was saying City / Liverpool do use crosses as one part of their attacking play. As I've seen many people say on here teams like City / Liverpool rarely use crosses when attacking. Both teams use wide forwards that play in the half spaces, while their full backs occupy the wide areas. When these full backs overlap (Robertson/Trent Mendy/Walker) they more than often cross or cut the ball back into the area. I never once suggested crossing is their primary way of creating goal scoring chances, simply that they utilise crossing as part of a varied attack.

The fact they used Delph LB for a large part of last season and he played quite inverted would impact these numbers. Mendy being back this season has increased the number of overlaps attempted on the left hand side and he's certainly contributed with crosses himself.

I agree with your overall point about the patterns of play City use. Again, I never suggested City or Liverpool are reliant on crosses, just pointed out they are in fact 6th and 10th on total crosses attempted, which would suggest crossing is part of their attacking arsenal. Of course City dominate possession in most games and crosses do not make up the majority of their attacks, but I would suggest this is the reason why Pep wanted fast wing backs with good delivery into the box to give his team this option in the wide areas.

Attacking wing backs have become popular in modern football partly due to wide forwards usually playing in the half space and cutting inside but also due to them being able to offer an outlet to overlap on the flanks. Most top teams, especially those that play a 4-3-3 will use an attacking wing back to provide width. They are often faced with 8/9 opposition bodies all defending the central areas and while some top teams attempt (both successfully and unsuccessfully) to play through this low block, sometimes it can be better to go around the outside. They will of course be less reliant on crosses overall, compared to a less technically gifted side, but there is no doubt in the importance this plays in modern football.

If you are seeing this too often in FM, please upload a PKM with timed examples of times a player could play centrally into an attackers feet or another type of pass, instead of going out wide. We would be happy to look through these.

Yes...when I saw the word 'often' describing city/liverpool attacking from wide areas just wanted to clear it up. I know one of your points was they cross more than people may think which the data suggests so just wanted to contextualise it as well. So I think we're broadly speaking saying the same thing.

Agree on the delph/mendy impact but again as you say delph played narrow/inverted but really the broader point is even though they hadn't the attacking element of a full back crossing or bombing on it didn't have much of an adverse impact on their ability to break down low lying defensive blocks with heavily congested central areas as they very successfully opened up those defences creating and scoring in abundance...so even without the option of the bombing full backs they were more than capable of unlocking congested low central defensive blocks with the way they work the ball. So again the perception of width to cross to break down these defences (not your perception) is misplaced as it can and is done by other means...crossing can throw another option into the mix for sure.

I would also say that crossing/cut backs are different nuance wise in terms of how the ball gets worked into these positions...the position on the pitch and the way the ball gets moved around to get the ball and the players into the positions can be different for cut backs and more sophisticated than just move the ball out wide to cross it from there. city are constantly moving to work the ball into good positions even when they cross from wide they have moved it around the pitch with players in close proximity to give options having kept trying to probe for openings and the opportunity for a cross will have been worked into the most advantageous situation positionally on the pitch with a higher probability of connecting with the recipient

agree with attacking full backs providing width but again teams use that nominally to stretch opponents. Take chelsea title winning year...where they used wing backs but again that occupied players to allow gaps and space for pedro and hazard inside

Chelsea title winning year under conte's wing back system saw only 6% of their goals come from open play crosses.  Marcos alonso had only 3 assists (none from crosses), azpi tho he played in back three had 4 (none from crosses), moses 2 (1 from a cross)...fabregas had 12, pedro 9, matic 7, hazard 5. So this indicates that despite what may have been a perceived wisdom that Chelsea used wing backs to get it wide and that's what was effective real world evidence suggests otherwise...they used wing backs to recycle it inside to create and be more effective centrally...not exclusively of course as no team attacks one dimensionally. Also only three teams had less crosses per game than Chelsea so again we need to get away from any expectation that width is using for crossing and goals and its simply not that linear

I'm not saying that's your contention at all but any impression that wing backs => crosses => goals isn't something that translates well into real world football especially when playing against deep lying defences with loads of defenders in the middle. 

Another thing as you say playing against 8/9 bodies defending central areas...crossing into that traffic is actually very easily defended and hard to connect with intended target...of course it can be a get it into the mixer and see what happens sometimes as well. 

 

I agree as well re reliance on crosses can be mitigated by having technical players but one could make a very sound case that the real game changer of a coach like guardiola is how he imparts his vision of the game onto players and the primary difference maker is how he shows players the importance of movement off the ball and in support of players on the ball and even further into the progression of a move ie players positioning and rotation is with a view to receiving the ball 2/3 passes ahead having pulled opponents out of position or moved into pockets of space to receive the ball and it's all premised on constant, almost symphonic, movement of having players moving into positions to receive the ball and move it into more advantageous positions moving it all the while with the intention to get a player into a situation  which essentially increases the probability of them scoring.  

A lot of the time even less technical players don't have that awareness of effect of movement to allow a better way to play in terms of offering more options to mean a team of less technical players than eg city can with better off the ball movement shuttle the ball into better positions to mean they are less reliant on crossing to create...and that applies when they play against equal or lesser teams where they don't face deep/high numbers bodies defending even. Of course the relative success is more often than not dependent of the quality of the player at one's disposal but certainly the team of less technical players won't face the challenge city do as regularly.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

of course, crossing is (fundamental) part of attacking arsenal for almost all teams. nobody serious would deny this. however, nobody who is serious about analysis in football will rely purely on numbers of crosses when it comes to the way a team plays. quantitative analysis is way too reductive to really tell you how, and above all, why things on the pitch happen. i.e. if you look at a heat map of average player position, you may see two wingers being in the center of the pitch. With this information, you might conclude that these two wingers were moving inside. However, if you actually watch the game, you would see they simply switched sides and actually played as pure wingers all game long. 

Same for crosses, reasons why some teams play crosses differ and simple numbers don't tell you nearly enough. That is why a qualitative analysis is way more important in most cases than quantitative. 

I've taken a look at Man City last match v Southampton (played v 10 men since 7th minute), which isn't representative at all but it provides some insight when you compare crosses they produced in real and in game. So, in pure numbers, they had:

a total of 12 crosses

3 of those came after a corner kick and one after a rebound so 8 crosses from open play in positional attacks.

dir.thumb.png.81df28e17eb819e2a1e7cb861d90789e.png

1 - RW after a direct ball behind the back line;

additional remarks: CITY in positional attack - occupying half spaces with five players 

notice the switch of position between the LW#19 and CM#21 to open space for passing lane on the left

 

switch.thumb.png.3f45ba69c64cd8888aaa48544e5851d9.png

1- RB after a switch 

City creating an overload on the left, occupying half spaces with 5 players. As the opposition prevents the overload, the ball is switched towards the right flank (green circle). The space is created by RW #7 moving inside dragging the opposition full back inside and opening space on the flank. Notice the narrow positioning of RB#2 which serves two purposes: a) provides short passing option b) assures narrow shape if the ball is lost

 

610625531_cmunderlap.thumb.png.a3c1d94c6aa7f89bfab4c2c8968daeca.png

2 - LCM after an underlap

Again, city in their positional attack. On the left, you see the RW#7 moving inside and dropping deep to open passing lane in the half space while the FB#2 now stays high and wide assuring there is space for #7 in the half space. However, the ball moves towards the left half space where #21 drops deeper into the half space, between the lines to receive the pass. Addititonal numbers to achieve numerical parity/advantage in the half-space are created by the CB#14 moving up the pitch. The ball is played wide to the W#19 and he is supported by the CM#21 with an underlapping run (green circle). Notice how he is provided with two options in the box: a) SC#10 and RW#7 attack the 6yard box while RCM#20 attacks the edge of the box.

On the right side we see the same pattern. The difference is that the left flank is reached with a direct pass from deep (notice the width of the team) instead of playing through the half space. This time, the space is created with off the ball movement from SC#10 (moving wide), LW#19 (moving inside). However, while plaers switch positions, the shape remains very much the same. Off the ball movement creates space and the man on the ball is provided support with an underlapping run from LCM#19

 

1724727597_overlapFB.thumb.png.726eca5ba1b0d15ac0945c5a1fc8f9a9.png

2 - LB on overlap 
On the left side, the team is in their very wide 4-1-4-1 shape as seen all the time. Space for a pass is created by a rotation on the left flank where LW#19 makes a diagonal run offering a direct passing option. This movement is not isolated and LCM#21 shifts to left wing while SC#10 drops deeper into the half space where was the LCM#21. This movement creates gaps and opens passing lanes towards the flank. Space for the cross is made by an overlapping LB#22. Notice how the SC#10 moves on support exactly as LCM#21 did in examples before. However, the LB has enough space and can cross the ball without need of supporting player. 

Again, he is offered two passing options. Two players attacking the goal and RCM#20 offering a back pass option on the edge of the box.

On the right side... this time attack starts from a deeper position with the LCM#21 coming deep to pick the ball but that is entirely different phase not a subject here. However, if you take a look at the development, you see how it ends and you see similarities with previous examples.

 

individual_deep.thumb.png.e7b2c5d8b132632b774ed1cb3d0f9cff.png

1 - LB individual and 1 - LW Deep

 

These both examples have two things in common. They occur very high up the pitch where the team plays against a very deep opposition. Only significant movement here is the SC#10 dropping deep to offer a short passing option while the RCM#20 and RW#7 move in opposite direction to attack the goal. The LW tries a speculative crossing attempt that comes to nothing.

On the right side, we see a similar example with little movement. Instead of recycling possession or waiting for better movement, the FB#22 decides to go on an individual run losing the ball. If you watch the clip, you see #7 being frustrated with #22 as he obviously doesn't follow the team plan.

 

CONCLUSION:

I think you can see a clear path (in this match) how City went about action in wide area. 
A few things repeat themselves:

a) rotation of players. Players have their positions, but they all move from one position to the other in order to create gaps. So a CM is a CM only nominaly, and in one instant he may be a LW and in another a SC.

b) the team shape stays largely intact despite rotations

c) When the ball is wide, there is always support for the player on the ball. Either by an overlapping full back or underlapping CM.

d) there are two crosses over the whole game that are truly aimless.

Later I will take a look at a random match in the game and see how Man City does there.

The problem isn't that it is better to go around, the problem is the way you go around. Do you just switch the ball around or do your players move to actually make it harder for the opposition to cover the space.

No doubt. However, I'd like to investigate how consistent this is and how it compares to real football.

Cheers!

 

EDIT: tried to watch the City game in the demo, but for some reason, it is impossible to view anything but your own matches. Am I missing something?

thats a great post with it well explained.

I think an important point by @MBarbaricis the shape city keep despite being fluid in terms of individuals moving in and out of different pockets of space...off topic but still interesting

I've posted before the any manager can coach a team to set up attack (brendan rodgers) or defend (jose)...it's not rocket launching by either of those

the ultimate test of a coach lies in their ability to set a team up to attack, defend and transition as a cohesive unit whilst being able to move players interchangibly and fluidly in pockets of space whilst attacking yet contemporaneously remain solid shape wise to manage transitions on turnovers and be able to be in a shape to deal with situations defensively and that's touched on above.

Lippis juve were maybe the best team Ive seen do that in terms of maintaining its shape whilst being able to attack fluidly at the same time...they were very impressive. Van Gaals Ajax was similarly excellent and the great Milan sides were just awesome in most if not all aspects of the game.

That's one aspect of guardiola sides which gets missed though in terms of their structure. Yes they press on turnovers but the closeness of players in possession allows them that luxury to quickly recover the ball after they lose it so they're not exposed as easily as is perceived despite their expansiveness as they try to maintain their shape as best as possible so they can deal with it on losing possession. This is one aspect which city struggled with in guardiola first season at city...there was too much separation distance wise between players and they were ragged on turnovers...that combined with playing more directly than is guardiolas norm meant their levels were lower than should have been.

At barca their proximity in possession was even more in evidence than at city.

How impressive it is you just have to picture a team city fielded there earlier managed by jose...they'd be a mess as jose has no idea of the intricacies of what guardiola is doing to develop city's structure/shape and movement with the players and how far advanced it is compared to the sterility of a mourinho coached team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/11/2018 at 01:34, RocheBag said:

This happens over and over, several times a match. My wide men will be streaking down the wing, either onto a ball from the middle or dribbling himself. He'll have his marker beat, but instead of getting a ball in while he can he will just hold up the ball. He will wait and wait and either get tackled or finally try a cross after getting closed down which gets blocked every time.

Can confirm this. Not sure if it started to happen after 19.1.1 or 19.1. Attacking Full-Backs with "Cross More Often" dwells on the ball, often with back to goal, in the best case they give it back to midfielders, in the worst it's counter-attack. Same can be said for Complete Forwards with "Run Wide With Ball". Previously, they crossed a lot, now they trying to send the ball back to the playmaker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, pauly15 said:

This issue, combined with not playing central through balls (on the ground, from attacking midfield) makes the game pretty difficult right now.

At the moment there are very few central through balls played on the ground. As a result, if you play a low tempo short passing system, a lot of play ends up out wide. Rather than resolving the central through play issue, this ME has nerfed players with the ball out wide. 

I think the issue could be improved by working on central through balls. It would reduce the amount the ball ends up out wide, and then there would be less need to nerf it.

I hope it's not going to the other extremity, concentrate the play through the middle and completely ignore the wingers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Hunter T said:

Please SI, stop this asap. Please, i cant stand watching it anymore.

qSTN2Zf.gif

otWRyL8.gif

 

join the public beta, the new ME has resolved it IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe the way wing play works in the ME is completely terrible. Wingbacks don't just run blindly and force a cross every time racking up the cross counts to be completely unrealistic. 

they hold the ball most of the time and play it back the midfield support and recycle possession if no clear crossing opportunity.

right now, as the GIF the poster showed, wing backs either run blindly all the way to the byline. or they hold the ball up until they are closed down and then cross the ball which 99% is blocked. just horrible wing play in the ME.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, upthetoon said:

I believe the way wing play works in the ME is completely terrible. Wingbacks don't just run blindly and force a cross every time racking up the cross counts to be completely unrealistic. 

they hold the ball most of the time and play it back the midfield support and recycle possession if no clear crossing opportunity.

right now, as the GIF the poster showed, wing backs either run blindly all the way to the byline. or they hold the ball up until they are closed down and then cross the ball which 99% is blocked. just horrible wing play in the ME.

couldn't agree more. players just run blindly to the byline and cross it in.. when on the rare occassion they dont, the animation for them holding it up and actually passing back looks bad. ME very far from a realistic football sim. but it has potential. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/11/2018 at 05:45, upthetoon said:

I believe the way wing play works in the ME is completely terrible. Wingbacks don't just run blindly and force a cross every time racking up the cross counts to be completely unrealistic. 

they hold the ball most of the time and play it back the midfield support and recycle possession if no clear crossing opportunity.

right now, as the GIF the poster showed, wing backs either run blindly all the way to the byline. or they hold the ball up until they are closed down and then cross the ball which 99% is blocked. just horrible wing play in the ME.

exactly. if person pays just a little more attention during watching football you can notice even the best wingers and fullbacks don't run with ball not even close enough to how much they do in the game. most of running with the ball happens in transition and (first phase of) counter attacks. against settled defense very little dribbling happens, usually it's either players doing dribbles in small area - ''techinical dribble'' or just burst of speed to get cross in or shoot. 

in general players shouldn't be able to have the time especially for one dimensional dribbling down the line against packed defense and they too easily decide for doing that. in real football such behaviour, trying to dribble past opponent is the most risky decision player can make against settled defense.  but in FM especially fulbacks are frequently left without passing options - support from wide forwards and midfilders which makes this situation even worse and running down the line to get cross in is only option they have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mitja said:

exactly. if person pays just a little more attention during watching football you can notice even the best wingers and fullbacks don't run with ball not even close enough to how much they do in the game. most of running with the ball happens in transition and (first phase of) counter attacks. against settled defense very little dribbling happens, usually it's either players doing dribbles in small area - ''techinical dribble'' or just burst of speed to get cross in or shoot.  

in general players shouldn't be able to have the time especially for one dimensional dribbling down the line against packed defense and they too easily decide for doing that. in real football such behaviour, trying to dribble past opponent is the most risky decision player can make against settled defense.  but in FM especially fulbacks are frequently left without passing options - support from wide forwards and midfilders which makes this situation even worse and running down the line to get cross in is only option they have.

actually wingbacks don't try to beat their man at every single opportunity like currently in the game. I think the way match engine plays out the wing play compounds to other issues like lack of through balls and lack of movements from strikers. I think this is the main reason for all the other problem. they need to input logic of how play is recycled in the wings rather than hardcording wingers or wingback = run blindly to the byline.

hopefully more PKMs are upload for SI to fix this major issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/11/2018 at 19:00, pauly15 said:

join the public beta, the new ME has resolved it IMO.

Isn't the whole point for the feedback/bugs to be posted is to change what it's actually like in the actual game? surely they would fix this if it's already implemented in a beta UNLESS it's a running trend for the next big update. How much has the public beta changed from the real version we are seeing now in terms of ME and player specifics (movement, through balls, pace, crossing etc.)???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, BigV said:

Isn't the whole point for the feedback/bugs to be posted is to change what it's actually like in the actual game? surely they would fix this if it's already implemented in a beta UNLESS it's a running trend for the next big update. How much has the public beta changed from the real version we are seeing now in terms of ME and player specifics (movement, through balls, pace, crossing etc.)???

The public beta is their most up-to-date version so I'm guessing they're working from there, unless something really stuffs up in it, which it hasn't. 

Some disagree, but I think the public beta has changed a fair amount for the better. It's all a bit better. The striker movement issue is still a problem, but I think there's been a slight improvement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, pauly15 said:

The public beta is their most up-to-date version so I'm guessing they're working from there, unless something really stuffs up in it, which it hasn't. 

Some disagree, but I think the public beta has changed a fair amount for the better. It's all a bit better. The striker movement issue is still a problem, but I think there's been a slight improvement. 

A great implementation but it's there because of so many problems that have/haven't been seen or worked on. Honestly I think im just gonna wait till the next big update, I think it's unplayable in terms of what I want from both players and instructions IMO, but it'd be interesting in what the public beta offers or changes to see how it differs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...