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Experienced Defender

Useful hints on roles and duties in 4-2-3-1

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3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You mean 42DM31 narrow (with no wingers/wide forwards)? Like this:

STC

AMC   AMC   AMC

 

DMC    DMC

DL       DC       DC        DR

GK

?

This

 

STC

AML              AMC             AMR

 

DMC    DMC

DL       DC       DC        DR

GK

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@Sussex Hammer Cleon wrote a thread about that a while ago, someone linked it up a page or two back 

I've been experimenting with it a little against 4-1-4-1's, I find it helps to compress the final third less later on in a move so you don't end up camping on the edge of a crowded box. I find the MC's take less longer shots & get more assists as they're slightly further back in the attacking build-up to supply the front 4 rather than forming a front 5, it's interesting    

Her it is:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/414887-the-4231-explained/

 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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20 minutes ago, Sussex Hammer said:

This

 

STC

AML              AMC             AMR

 

DMC    DMC

DL       DC       DC        DR

GK

Well, this formation (4231 dm wide) is not so uncommon in FM. But the narrow version (the one I initially thought you were referring to) is extremely rare (in both CM and DM variants). 

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I'm struggling to get a 4-2-3-1 functioning as I imagine with a Shadow Striker

I tried a set-up in a game last night with SS(A) & DLF(S) & neither of them had a shot at goal, we scored 3 with all 3 of them coming from central midfield (CM(D) & RPM(S) ), so back to the drawing board

So I look into the Shadow Striker role, he's got a bit of creativity about him with his risky passes, he presses, he runs with the ball, moves into channels & gets further forward, quite an exciting role

Now, the striker role, the options seem to be a DLF(S), a guy who can hold the ball up & play a through ball to the SS. A CF(S) who can hold the ball up, can also drop deep or drift wide to supply the SS, a PF(S) seems to be an option, he'll stay central, also press the backline & holds the ball up for more simple passes to the SS

Then the SS(A) needs options to supply, so an IF(A) would make sense but then the IF(A) might be moving into the box around the same time as the SS(A) 

Then the midfield two, plenty of options here to try & get the SS(A) on the ball, RPM(S), DLP(S), AP(S) or a good old CM(S) or a fellow runner from deep with a BBM(A), or maybe a supply from wide is another option

Jotted on my notepad, I have:

 

                        PF(S)

W(A)               SS(A)               IF(S)

           RPM(S)          CM(D)

IWB(S)    DC(D)   BPD(D)   FB(A)

 

                    DLF(S)

W(A)            SS(A)             APM(S)

            BBM(S)  DLP(D)

FB(S) BPB(D)   CD(D)   IWB(A)

 

                    CF(S)

IF(A)           SS(A)            APM(S)

           DLP(S)     CM(D)   

FB(S)  CD(D)     BPD(D)  IWB(A)   

or something like...

 

                      T(A)

W(S)             SS(A)             IF(A)

             CM(D)      CM(S)

IWB(A)   DC(D)  BPD(D)   FB(S) 

           

I've got pre-season coming up so I'll give them a try & see what I think unless anyone wants to chip in & offer some alternative options

Edited by Johnny Ace

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17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

RPM can only be on support duty. mate :) 

Wouldn't a RPM(A) be something!? :D

I had a mess about last night for a few hours, in my test save & main save & the most success I got from the SS(A) was the CF(S) setup, with a few changes 

Basically, in my mad scientist type way I observed the following:

  • he needs lots of support & any other Attack duty in the top-4 would take his shine away (they still score)
  • IF's(S) supply him more often than a W(S) can (I use WBIB into box so figure they're too wide to find him)
  • Playmakers pick up passes the SS(A) could use to drive forward
  • central runners ruin his jive including the IWB(A)

I ended up with:

 

                                          PF(S)

            IF(S)                      SS(A)                       IF(S)

                            CM(S)               CM(D)

          FB(S)         CD(D)             BPD(D)         FB(A)

                                        SK(S)

Team Instructions

  • Attacking
  • Play out of defense
  • Work ball into box
  • Counter-Press
  • More urgent
  • Long throws

Player Instructions

  • CM(S): Take more Risks
  • SS(A): Shoot more

It looks an odd setup to me, it looks toothless but the IF's & PF will score when given the chance, the SS(A) is involved but his primary job seems to be linking up the midfield & attack with scoring secondary hence I added Shoot more but the main reason is the guy's I want to use for the role have better Long Shot ratings than Finishing so I want them pinging shots from the edge of the box

I'll have another tinker tonight, trying a DLF(S) & (A) then push on with my season

Edited by Johnny Ace

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@Johnny Ace:The Shadow Striker definitely needs bunch of support like you have in your set up. Like you I found that a CF(S) is the best compliment in the middle of the attack.

I have also found that ONLY one Attack role in Front Four is beneficial in a 4-2-3-1. My Current setup has IF-A on the Left Wing and he is the Star. No matter what role I give the Striker he is always outshined. But I think that is due to the Lone Striker being marked out of the Game by the AI's CB's and lack of movement in FM19's Match engine.

Also you might want to ease up on the Mentality except in the last minutes of a half. Because the AI tends to "Park the Bus" against you if you play to attack minded and or compress space with a High Defensive line. (It does it no matter who you play against or who the favorite is especially as the Away Team).

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11 minutes ago, Hootieleece said:

@Johnny Ace:The Shadow Striker definitely needs bunch of support like you have in your set up. Like you I found that a CF(S) is the best compliment in the middle of the attack.

I have also found that ONLY one Attack role in Front Four is beneficial in a 4-2-3-1. My Current setup has IF-A on the Left Wing and he is the Star. No matter what role I give the Striker he is always outshined. But I think that is due to the Lone Striker being marked out of the Game by the AI's CB's and lack of movement in FM19's Match engine.

Also you might want to ease up on the Mentality except in the last minutes of a half. Because the AI tends to "Park the Bus" against you if you play to attack minded and or compress space with a High Defensive line. (It does it no matter who you play against or who the favorite is especially as the Away Team).

Some good points @Hootieleece, I'll give the CF(S) another try because I clocked on to that set-up quite late last night. I still have the DLF to try too even though I was really pleased with the PF's output

Yeah, I found a few pages back in my main tactic that any sort of spearhead really struggles when coming up against packed boxes so I changed the role & player to a creator/scorer in a Treq(A) & he links up well with the other front 4. So I have two attack duties in my front 4 but I'd class a Trequartista as a half Support, half Attack role so 1 and a half :D

Mentality was my big change last season, I was mainly a Positive kind of guy, started the season really well, then 3 straight draws including a 3-3 away in the group stages of the CL against the cannon fodder. So I was like"drawing them out is no good, do I up the tempo, up the passing directness, up the lines, up the pressing ?" I went with all of the above & upped the mentality & WBIB & we were back to winning ways. If the Trequartista struggles I bring out plan B , another 4-2-3-1 with him in the AMC slot, then I want a plan C for this season which includes a Shadow Striker  

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@Johnny Ace:

I agree that Attacking and higher Mentalities does work against the AI's packed boxes but you would surprised what a lower mentality and fewer TI's and more PI's and PPM's can create. I generally start my formation on Balanced and work from there. Since reading some other threads about the 4-3-2-1(@westy8chimp) I started going with less is more. 

Especially since I tend to recruit big, fast and strong players who are aggressive, brave with plenty of teamwork and work rate. I tend to prefer at least a 12 in all of those Attributes if possible. This creates a team that will get stuck in without the TI. Especially if you use the Opposition marking system.

I also train my playmakers with all the possible passing ppm's (Killer balls, One Two's, Switch to other Flank, Dictates Tempo) and make sure they have high flair as possible as well.

Edited by Hootieleece

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1 hour ago, Hootieleece said:

@Johnny Ace:

I agree that Attacking and higher Mentalities does work against the AI's packed boxes but you would surprised what a lower mentality and fewer TI's and more PI's and PPM's can create. I generally start my formation on Balanced and work from there. Since reading some other threads about the 4-3-2-1(@westy8chimp) I started going with less is more. 

Especially since I tend to recruit big, fast and strong players who are aggressive, brave with plenty of teamwork and work rate. I tend to prefer at least a 12 in all of those Attributes if possible. This creates a team that will get stuck in without the TI. Especially if you use the Opposition marking system.

I also train my playmakers with all the possible passing ppm's (Killer balls, One Two's, Switch to other Flank, Dictates Tempo) and make sure they have high flair as possible as well.

I figured with my team, if I ever would go full bore it would be now , I've even dabbled with Very Attacking for short periods :D I've tried to pull my lines back & reduce the mentality, I played around with lower blocks to see if I could tempt the opposition out & they would never take the bait. I tend to use a Balanced mentality & use an AF(A) if my scout report suspects the opposition are coming out Positive

Particularly in this FM, I've taken more interest in mentals, no good having a world class player who's not going to put a shift in :D

I'll go & have a look & see if I can find Westychimp's thread 

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@Experienced Defender can you spare some pearls of wisdom? So far in FM19 I've been using the IWB, the RPM, the SS, the Treq, roles I've never been brave enough to use in past editions & love them, I love watching them & seeing the roles link up with others on the pitch. This is all in a 4-2-3-1 of course

Another role I've never really used is the Mezzala, mainly because it's a role I don't fully understand, I've only just this week understood the RPM  

As you touched on back on page one, only the Mezz(S) can realistically be used, I'm thinking the role would link well with an IF(A), Treq(A), AP(S) (on a flank), with those roles roaming & cutting inside & the Mezzela could pull out wide with an IWB(S) supporting the middle of the park

Am I thinking along the right tracks here? 

 

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2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Am I thinking along the right tracks here? 

Basically yes, but it means little without considering the tactic as a whole. And while a good and sensible setup of roles and duties is (arguably) the most important part of a tactic, you also need to make sure the instructions are properly selected, taking always the mentality into account. Last but not least, take care to assign roles to suitable players (especially in a 4231 as an inherently tricky system).

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13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Basically yes, but it means little without considering the tactic as a whole. And while a good and sensible setup of roles and duties is (arguably) the most important part of a tactic, you also need to make sure the instructions are properly selected, taking always the mentality into account. Last but not least, take care to assign roles to suitable players (especially in a 4231 as an inherently tricky system).

I'm just trialling it now against a defensive 4-1-4-1, here's the setup 

Untitled.thumb.png.0276c95335095398d7fb250504559585.png

 

They combined well in the 9th minute, Hunt with the ball on the inside, passed to the Mezz, tucked into Zimmer who found the DLF for the goal. 7 defending players were pulled to that right hand side leaving the DLF free 

1098217595_Untitled2.thumb.png.4a53d8b1ba9def5d9cb56f12173418c0.png

 

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The Mez(S) tactic lost it's legs, it sent an extra body forward getting in the way of the front 4 & losing a man on the cover which then threw out the BBM(S) & RPM(S) tactics

Maybe on lower mentalities it's fine but on Attacking I really need the 2 CM's to screen the back 4 & cover for any potential counters so my preference now is a CM(D) CM(S) combo with the option to go more offensive with this role 

This season has been brilliant so far, my main striker has more goals than games, unbeaten in the league & we beat Napoli 11-1 over two legs in the CL quarters, the home leg was 7-1 with a striker hat-trick & 5 through ball goals. They played a 4-4-2, the 4-2-3-1 really is the 4-4-2 killer :D 

I'll post them up tonight  

 

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On 06/10/2019 at 19:47, Johnny Ace said:

I stole my under 19's manager's 4-2-3-1 for a game.....

Untitled2.thumb.png.ab8fb9cdfc33ad1688743e67be5417bd.png

 

….. & this happened......

Untitled1.thumb.png.2700f3b4872d0421a86b161e41aa31e3.png

…….. :D

 

 

When you say you stole the u19 tactic, did you set it up to the non-first teams could play their own tactics then see what they were doing in the squad view? 

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6 minutes ago, Boydo said:

When you say you stole the u19 tactic, did you set it up to the non-first teams could play their own tactics then see what they were doing in the squad view? 

I've enabled being able to see AI roles via the skin, I hired an U-19's manager that also uses a 4-2-3-1 & let him use his own tactics. I noted he was doing really well so I used his roles for a game 

I didn't know his mentality, I guessed that based on him using 3 attacking roles & the TI's were just what I was using at the time  

Edited by Johnny Ace

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Maybe on lower mentalities it's fine but on Attacking I really need the 2 CM's to screen the back 4

I also think the attacking mentality is a key problem in this particular case. Another possible issue might be the quality of players, but I cannot know if that's the case. Only you can :brock: 

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24 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I also think the attacking mentality is a key problem in this particular case. Another possible issue might be the quality of players, but I cannot know if that's the case. Only you can :brock: 

Yeah, it is, I like Attacking though & it's serving us really well. Playing on Positive & Balanced we were getting scrappy wins, relying on set pieces & the CM's for goals & I thought if I can't use an Attacking mentality with this team I never will! Attacking gives that extra little bit of everything which turned 1-0/2-1 win's into 3-0/4-0 & 5-0s

We were conceding from the side of the BBM(S)/ Mezz(S)/RPM(S) as they'd be up on the edge of the area & if we lost possession, I was in trouble, so I simplified it & the run since has been awesome   

I've only really messed up with it once this season, away at Chelsea, we lost 2-1 in the groups but I thought I'd try it out as the game was pretty unimportant. Used it away at Napoli & hammered them 4-0 but I sure as hell won't be using it away at Barca, Man City et all 

I'll post up my two main CM's later on, both are world class but one has a PPM I'm trying to get rid of :D

Edited by Johnny Ace

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Gonna be a bit pic heavy this one but here's my 3 main tactics, I've inverted versions of all 3 to rotate. This is your 4-2-3-1 thread @Experienced Defender, I don't want this to be about my save so I'll remove them if you wish :thup:

T(A).thumb.png.a980b4932de056d64178fea26f81f915.png

My T(A) up top tactic, I use WBIB because he's only 5' 4 & I use a bit of extra central support instead of an overlapping FB 

PF(A).thumb.png.c0e7a928b493afae20ec02e1f0623adf.png

This is my now main tactic, the T(A) in the AMC slot, I usually use this vs. a 4-1-4-1 to shake off the DM, no WBIB or IWB to get crosses to van der Linden as he's a beast in the air. As you'll see on the right, he's got 28 in 27 so far this season 

AF(A).thumb.png.c6605582fde0a68e9fe9c30ea80d31b3.png

This is the tactic I used in the home leg vs. Napoli's 4-4-2, an AP(A) in the AMC slot to stay between their defence & midfield & a AF(A) to sit on the back line , Martinez (my T(A)) is tiny but rapid 

On all of the above, I have the CM(S) to hold position, take more risks & the CM(D) to close down less

I still have a few more 4-2-3-1's up my sleeve, a CF(A) version, a SS(A) version & I'm working on a TM(S) version to use against 2 DM opposition 

This is the game:

Napoli.thumb.png.ae77ce6521674c2766e455ec6004cf2a.png

Martinez got a hattrick, all from balls between the lines & the W(A) popped up for a couple of them too

Run.thumb.png.4aff706446434e228862be588a63c942.png

From the start of December I switched to the CM(D) CM(S) combo, the 2-2 Borussia is where I last used the Mezz(S) in CM then I used a BBM(S) or RPM(S) for a few games as you'll see where my CM & CDs had to win me a couple of games, then I shored up the midfield in December onwards & we've been on a 13 game winning streak in the league with van der Linden scoring in every game he's played 

Here are my two first choice centre mids:

Sladen.thumb.png.689986164bac3798542d07562daaa558.png

Domingo.thumb.png.d03b5d7d7f074ef4c55d8cb8f95046bf.png

Domingo I had to chase for years, he came with 9 PPMs, all are very useful apart from Runs with ball often as I don't want him doing that because he likes to run forward with the ball & take a shot (even though he has the Looks for a pass... PPM, ample Teamwork & Composure & usually has at least 5 good options to look for). It's not so bad though as he has 16 in 23, usually a rocket from the edge of the box :D Sladan, I've had to work on his defensive game for years but he's fantastic in the role, just a cool cat that can pick a pass

Hopefully someone finds this stuff useful/interesting & if not, it'll be an easy way to transfer my tactics to FM2020 :D

 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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@Experienced Defender

The 2 DM version of the 4-2-1-3, I know Cleon has his thread where he talks about it & uses the DM (S) & the SV(A), I was just sort of wondering if you had any input of suitable roles along the lines of what you said in your opening post?  

As we talked about AJax on the other thread, I had a look into their signings over the summer, they signed 2 centre backs that they play in the DM role & looking at their team in FM20, both are suited to DC & DM so to me, that would say Ajax use the 2 x DM version. At least, maybe they just used a 2 x DM line-up against Chelsea as a more defensive option, I don't know enough about them to be honest  

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2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

The 2 DM version of the 4-2-1-3, I know Cleon has his thread where he talks about it & uses the DM (S) & the SV(A), I was just sort of wondering if you had any input of suitable roles along the lines of what you said in your opening post?

I think Cleon's thread was about 42DM31, not 4213. Btw, volante can be successfully used in both systems (if you are lucky enough to have the right player :brock:).

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Just now, Experienced Defender said:

I think Cleon's thread was about 42DM31, not 4213. Btw, volante can be successfully used in both systems (if you are lucky enough to have the right player :brock:).

Slip of the tongue (finger?), yeah, it was the 4-2-3-1 :thup: I'm just scanning over the roles now, I've still got a few pre-season games left to give it a try & see how it plays out 

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8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Slip of the tongue (finger?), yeah, it was the 4-2-3-1 :thup: I'm just scanning over the roles now, I've still got a few pre-season games left to give it a try & see how it plays out 

Testing a new tactical system in a pre-season is always a good idea, I also do that. Btw, you can post a screenshot of your 42dm31 here so that we could discuss it in more detail :thup:

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Just now, Experienced Defender said:

Testing a new tactical system in a pre-season is always a good idea, I also do that. Btw, you can post a screenshot of your 42dm31 here so that we could discuss it in more detail :thup:

I will, I'm thinking something like this:

Untitled.thumb.png.323a5e3d7cb7f44c54c98f820df34ae4.png

But I'm thinking the SV(A) is going to get too far forward with the team mentality much like I found with the BBM(S) so I'll play it out, have a look & tone down the role. The RPM(S) might be a bad shout too but I want to give the role a run out

Ignore the team selection, my German lads have just lost the World Cup final :lol:

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4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Untitled.thumb.png.323a5e3d7cb7f44c54c98f820df34ae4.png

 

4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

But I'm thinking the SV(A) is going to get too far forward with the team mentality

Yeah, on such a high-risk mentality as the Attacking, I would definitely be more conservative with duties. And roles as well - I would never be so adventurous as to play with a RPM/VOL combo in defensive midfield. But you seem to like to take big risks, so who am I to stop you :brock: 

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12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Yeah, on such a high-risk mentality as the Attacking, I would definitely be more conservative with duties. And roles as well - I would never be so adventurous as to play with a RPM/VOL combo in defensive midfield. But you seem to like to take big risks, so who am I to stop you :brock: 

Haha!! Before this year I was way too conservative, it's only been this year I've really got stuck into a long-term save :D I'll give it a spin for a half or so, nothing to lose here (apart from a friendly!) 

ETA: Within that half I could see the problems I had back with a BBM in centre midfield, the SV(A) was overlapped the AM(S) which a) clogs up infield play & b) leaves us short if possession is turned over. So I dialed in the roles so that the mentalities match a CM(D) & CM(S) & went with a SV(S) & DM(S), Positive & Balanced. 2nd half played out more like I want with the 2 DMCs looking to sit back behind the front 4 for support & cover   

Edited by Johnny Ace

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On 01/06/2019 at 11:39, Gee_Simpson said:

PO

IF (S) AM (S) W (A) 

DLP (D) BBM (S) 

WB (S) CD (D) BPD (D) FB (S) 

SK (S) 

I ended up not even starting my Leverkusen save on FM19 but will probably try this system out with Man Utd on FM20, I like the idea of using Andreas Pereira in his more suited central AMC role, I believe this is his best position irl too. 

I may change the IF (S) to the new Inverted Winger role (on Support), it sounds like it would work really well in this system and makes sense as a swap for the IF role. I may tweak things, potentially the AMC to a Trequartista although I don't like the lack of closing down with this role, although I know Herne used a Treq in his Tiki Taka tactic which involved a high aggressive press. Obviously high teamwork and work rate would be required from the player playing there. I don't own FM20 yet though so can't check the attributes for the squad, I'm hoping Man Utd are more realistically rated vs FM19, it would make the save much more interesting. Man Utd are my English team so I would be committed to them long term. 

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3 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I ended up not even starting my Leverkusen save on FM19 but will probably try this system out with Man Utd on FM20

Just bear in mind that the current Man Utd team - the one that will be used in FM20 - is considerably weaker than the one from FM19, especially in the midfield (the departure of Herrera is a huge loss). Which means that setting up a 4231 could be veeery tricky in FM20 (unless you significantly strengthen the holding midfield area with quality new signings). If you intend to use Pogba as a CM in a 4231, be prepared to struggle. 

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11 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Just bear in mind that the current Man Utd team - the one that will be used in FM20 - is considerably weaker than the one from FM19, especially in the midfield (the departure of Herrera is a huge loss). Which means that setting up a 4231 could be veeery tricky in FM20 (unless you significantly strengthen the holding midfield area with quality new signings). If you intend to use Pogba as a CM in a 4231, be prepared to struggle. 

Yeah as I said I haven't even seen the squad yet but that's actually encouraging (in a way) to hear that the squad is much weaker as it's a long term save for me as most of my saves tend to be. Obviously with Utd's resources I do plan on strengthening in the weak areas, I'm also considering some sort of 442 diamond but that's for another thread if I go with that. 4231 is my preferred shape vs a 433 (4123) because of the AMC position. I noticed people using Pogba as a BBM in a 4231 on FM19 but I'm guessing he's had a downgrade? I may have to sell him if that's the case! 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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3 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm also considering some sort of 442 diamond

That's the formation I play with Man Utd in FM19 :brock: 

 

4 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I noticed people using Pogba as a BBM in a 4231 on FM19 but I'm guessing he's had a downgrade?

People may use him in a CM position in a 4231, but that does not mean it's a good idea. I also use him in a CM, but in the narrow diamond as a mezzala ;) But in a 4231, I would only play him in AMC (in the diamond, I sometimes play him as AM on attack duty and he plays really well in my system). 

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's the formation I play with Man Utd in FM19 :brock: 

 

People may use him in a CM position in a 4231, but that does not mean it's a good idea. I also use him in a CM, but in the narrow diamond as a mezzala ;) But in a 4231, I would only play him in AMC (in the diamond, I sometimes play him as AM on attack duty and he plays really well in my system). 

Yeah I was considering him at AMC too, I'll buy the game over the next couple of days and have a look at what I have to work with. I can imagine the 442 diamond being an option now, although I would probably need some sort of assistance with that, if I do I will be sure to create a thread :thup:

You should be a tactic moderator by the way, you do a great job at helping people. 

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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's the formation I play with Man Utd in FM19 :brock: 

 

People may use him in a CM position in a 4231, but that does not mean it's a good idea. I also use him in a CM, but in the narrow diamond as a mezzala ;) But in a 4231, I would only play him in AMC (in the diamond, I sometimes play him as AM on attack duty and he plays really well in my system). 

I'll probably try this as well. Pogba had great effect in FM19 for me as the BBM, even with poor defensive ability, he got up and down the pitch really well. Arguably, he's been a better player defensively this season, and statistically is one of the best in the league going forward, so I'm not concerned he'll be too far downgraded.

 

4-2-3-1 has always been a favourite of mine, however with United, for years now, it's been a style I haven't been able to implement due to the players available, preferring to stick with a 4-3-2-1 or 4-3-3, depends how you see it. 

Was also unusable for teams playing a short passing game in FM19, due to the nature of through balls and no movement, as you just ended up passing the ball wide, and there was no link between the 10 and the forward, which made them both kind of ineffective. 

Hoping to go back to being able to play a No.10, which will mean Pogba sits in midfielder. He's got too much about him physically to just sit as a creative DLP, and I don't want him as my No. 10. I like to mirror reality, and the fact is, Pogba, while creative, is no Scholes. Someone who sits deeper and dictates, and it's a waste of his abilities.

A whole team changed to accommodate one man.

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@Experienced Defender can you please give me your opinion about my formation:

                DLF(s)

IF(a)        AM(a)           IW(s)

         DLP(d) BWM(s)

 

Fb(s) CD(d) BPD(d) WB(s)

                 Sk(d)

 

TI are:

- play out of defence

- short passes

- lower tempo

- dribble less

- Work ball into box

- Pass  into space

 

- short kicks

- distribute to CBs

- counter press

- hold shape

 

- higher DL

- higher LoE

- offside trap

- prevent GK distribution

 

PIs are:

FB, WB and BWM have mark tighting

BWM and DLP have hard tackling

IF, IW, AM, DLF and BWM have close down more

FB and WB have cross more often

IF have shoot more often

BWM, DLP and CD have dribble less

 

I want to play a high possession and pressing game. 

Also want that my left IF to be the main goalscorer.

 

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5 hours ago, Bakiano said:

DLF(s)

IF(a)        AM(a)           IW(s)

         DLP(d) BWM(s)

 

Fb(s) CD(d) BPD(d) WB(s)

                 Sk(d)

 

5 hours ago, Bakiano said:

 can you please give me your opinion about my formation:

Looks okay in itself, although I personally would always look to avoid a BWM role in a 4231, because of his tendency to run around and press heavily (which can leave the defense overly exposed in a system with no DM). And even if I used a BWM, I would rather have him in MCL in your particular setup (whereas the DLP would be in MCR). 

 

5 hours ago, Bakiano said:

TI are:

- play out of defence

- short passes

- lower tempo

- dribble less

- Work ball into box

- Pass  into space

 

- short kicks

- distribute to CBs

- counter press

- hold shape

 

- higher DL

- higher LoE

- offside trap

- prevent GK distribution

 

PIs are:

FB, WB and BWM have mark tighting

BWM and DLP have hard tackling

IF, IW, AM, DLF and BWM have close down more

FB and WB have cross more often

IF have shoot more often

BWM, DLP and CD have dribble less

 

I want to play a high possession and pressing game. 

Also want that my left IF to be the main goalscorer.

What's the mentality?

And which team are you managing?

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Looks okay in itself, although I personally would always look to avoid a BWM role in a 4231, because of his tendency to run around and press heavily (which can leave the defense overly exposed in a system with no DM). And even if I used a BWM, I would rather have him in MCL in your particular setup (whereas the DLP would be in MCR). 

 

What's the mentality?

And which team are you managing?

Mentality is positive. I am managing Juventus, only when is beta time.

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On 02/11/2019 at 18:04, Bakiano said:

Mentality is positive. I am managing Juventus, only when is beta time.

Here you can see my advice on your 4123 tactic, which can also be useful for a 4231 (as well as in general). 

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Thoughts on this? Working ok so far, 3rd in Vanarama South in October but just looking for any obvious improvements I've missed. Could do with scoring more goals as I'm seeing a lot of single goal victories but the defence is pretty tight.

LLM so the idea is nothing fancy, work hard, get it wide and get the ball in the box. Brunt is the only viable striker at the club (first window transfers off) and can literally do nothing but be a target man. Harvey is the best player by a country mile so looking to get the TM feeding him chances in and around the box. Surprising how deep a TM - S drops though...

Will eventually try and swap the CM - D for a DLP and try and play more football.

Bath4231.png

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I was tinkering about a new 4-2-3-1, so I would like to ask for some feedback. I've come up with this:

TM-s
IF-a          SS-a  W-s
MEZ-s       
         RGS-s
IWB-d CD-d CD-d FB-a
SK-d

But there are a couple of roles witch I'm not certain about:

As my lone striker should I use a TM-s or DLF-s who can hold the ball for the upcoming IF-a and SS-a? Or should I go for a F9-s who can operate in the hole when he comes deep?
Should i choose the Regista as my playmaker or should I go for a DLP-s or maybe on defend duty to get more defensive stability? And should I play him in a DM or CM strata?
What are my back options? Should I go for an IWB-a on the right flank to be less one-dimensional on the right flank? Or should I use both for defensive stability?


 

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On 22/10/2019 at 18:32, Johnny Ace said:

Gonna be a bit pic heavy this one but here's my 3 main tactics, I've inverted versions of all 3 to rotate. This is your 4-2-3-1 thread @Experienced Defender, I don't want this to be about my save so I'll remove them if you wish :thup:

T(A).thumb.png.a980b4932de056d64178fea26f81f915.png

My T(A) up top tactic, I use WBIB because he's only 5' 4 & I use a bit of extra central support instead of an overlapping FB 

PF(A).thumb.png.c0e7a928b493afae20ec02e1f0623adf.png

This is my now main tactic, the T(A) in the AMC slot, I usually use this vs. a 4-1-4-1 to shake off the DM, no WBIB or IWB to get crosses to van der Linden as he's a beast in the air. As you'll see on the right, he's got 28 in 27 so far this season 

AF(A).thumb.png.c6605582fde0a68e9fe9c30ea80d31b3.png

This is the tactic I used in the home leg vs. Napoli's 4-4-2, an AP(A) in the AMC slot to stay between their defence & midfield & a AF(A) to sit on the back line , Martinez (my T(A)) is tiny but rapid 

On all of the above, I have the CM(S) to hold position, take more risks & the CM(D) to close down less

I still have a few more 4-2-3-1's up my sleeve, a CF(A) version, a SS(A) version & I'm working on a TM(S) version to use against 2 DM opposition 

This is the game:

Napoli.thumb.png.ae77ce6521674c2766e455ec6004cf2a.png

Martinez got a hattrick, all from balls between the lines & the W(A) popped up for a couple of them too

Run.thumb.png.4aff706446434e228862be588a63c942.png

From the start of December I switched to the CM(D) CM(S) combo, the 2-2 Borussia is where I last used the Mezz(S) in CM then I used a BBM(S) or RPM(S) for a few games as you'll see where my CM & CDs had to win me a couple of games, then I shored up the midfield in December onwards & we've been on a 13 game winning streak in the league with van der Linden scoring in every game he's played 

Here are my two first choice centre mids:

Sladen.thumb.png.689986164bac3798542d07562daaa558.png

Domingo.thumb.png.d03b5d7d7f074ef4c55d8cb8f95046bf.png

Domingo I had to chase for years, he came with 9 PPMs, all are very useful apart from Runs with ball often as I don't want him doing that because he likes to run forward with the ball & take a shot (even though he has the Looks for a pass... PPM, ample Teamwork & Composure & usually has at least 5 good options to look for). It's not so bad though as he has 16 in 23, usually a rocket from the edge of the box :D Sladan, I've had to work on his defensive game for years but he's fantastic in the role, just a cool cat that can pick a pass

Hopefully someone finds this stuff useful/interesting & if not, it'll be an easy way to transfer my tactics to FM2020 :D

 

How’s this save going/have you moved over to FM20?

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3 hours ago, craiigman said:

How’s this save going/have you moved over to FM20?

Yeah, I've moved onto FM20 now, the 4-2-31 isn't working as I'd like right now, I pretty much moved on from that save as soon as FM20 dropped  

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb Johnny Ace:

Yeah, I've moved onto FM20 now, the 4-2-31 isn't working as I'd like right now, I pretty much moved on from that save as soon as FM20 dropped  

What tactics/style are you using in FM20 then?

 

I'm starting a FM20 save with FC Bayern, looking to make either a 4123 or 4231 work.

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35 minutes ago, burnum said:

What tactics/style are you using in FM20 then?

 

I'm starting a FM20 save with FC Bayern, looking to make either a 4123 or 4231 work.

I had a 4-2-3-1 which worked nicely with Bayern, then the patch came & then soon ended :D I think if I try them again I'd go the 4-1-2-3 route 

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Those are my two preferred tactics as well. In a perfect world I'd find a way to use both tactics (4123 and 4231) based on opponents' strength, formation and mentality. With Bayern I've found the current squad is more suited to a 4231 because Javi Martinez is basically the only one who could play a defensive-minded DMC role (assuming you use Kimmich as your right back). Also Coutinho and Müller don't have a real place in a 4123, whereas in a 4231 we could use at least one of them in their strongest position (AMC). I usually try to use Coutinho as an AP (with Lewandowski as an AF in front of him) or I use Müller as a Shadow Striker (with Lewandowski as a F9). I might as well use Müller occasionally on the right wing (AMR) as a Raumdeuter with Lewa in a F9 role but usually Gnabry is my first choice as an IF there.

Edited by burnum

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2 minutes ago, burnum said:

Those are my two preferred tactics as well. In a perfect world I'd find a way to use both tactics (4123 and 4231) based on opponents' strength, formation and mentality. With Bayern I've found the current squad is more suited to a 4231 because Javi Martinez is basically the only one who could play a defensive-minded DMC role (assuming you use Kimmich as your right back). Also Coutinho and Müller don't have a real place in a 4123, whereas in a 4231 we could use at least one of them in their strongest position (AMC). I usually try to use Coutinho as an AP (with Lewandowski as an AF in front of him) or I use Müller as a Shadow Striker (with Lewandowski as a F9).

If you look how they lined up yesterday, they played Kimmich DMC, he quite often plays the holding midfielder role. Couthino plays out wide left in an assumed playmaker role with Gnabry over on the other flank. Muller doesn't play all that often  & if he does it's in centre mid of out on the right but he plays like a shadow striker, sits very narrow in behind the striker constantly in the box. I think the RMD game role is far to aggressive for that.

You could even say they do line 4-2-3-1, I can't see Muller sitting in the centre of the pitch so he may well play AMC but I didn't see the game 

With the Bayern squad you have options but I'm waiting for ME updates before I go for a 4-2-3-1 again  

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46 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

If you look how they lined up yesterday, they played Kimmich DMC, he quite often plays the holding midfielder role. Couthino plays out wide left in an assumed playmaker role with Gnabry over on the other flank. Muller doesn't play all that often  & if he does it's in centre mid of out on the right but he plays like a shadow striker, sits very narrow in behind the striker constantly in the box. I think the RMD game role is far to aggressive for that.

You could even say they do line 4-2-3-1, I can't see Muller sitting in the centre of the pitch so he may well play AMC but I didn't see the game 

With the Bayern squad you have options but I'm waiting for ME updates before I go for a 4-2-3-1 again  

What system you using at the moment and who with? 4231 playing that bad this year then?

When I saw your posts about the Treq up top I was ready to try it out.

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30 minutes ago, craiigman said:

What system you using at the moment and who with? 4231 playing that bad this year then?

When I saw your posts about the Treq up top I was ready to try it out.

It went up the swanny for me big time, Lewan went from 34 goals in a season (prepatch) to 4 in 17 the next (post patch) & I've not been back to the 4-2-3-1 

Just messing around with 4-4-2s with 1860 Munich but mainly playing FM15 were the 4-2-3-1 is a lot of fun :D

Untitled.thumb.png.973664f631abfb3cdbd8eb89cf947082.png

That's my FM15 4-2-3-1, pretty much following ED's principles, look at Lewandowski! 

 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Johnny Ace:

If you look how they lined up yesterday, they played Kimmich DMC, he quite often plays the holding midfielder role. Couthino plays out wide left in an assumed playmaker role with Gnabry over on the other flank. Muller doesn't play all that often  & if he does it's in centre mid of out on the right but he plays like a shadow striker, sits very narrow in behind the striker constantly in the box. I think the RMD game role is far to aggressive for that.

You could even say they do line 4-2-3-1, I can't see Muller sitting in the centre of the pitch so he may well play AMC but I didn't see the game 

With the Bayern squad you have options but I'm waiting for ME updates before I go for a 4-2-3-1 again  

As a lifelong Bayern fan from Germany I'm usually watching all the games (although I've only seen the 1st half yesterday). Bayern had a coaching change 3 weeks ago, so they're in a bit of a 'regrouping stage' at the moment under new Interim Manager Hansi Flick. Under fromer Manager Kovac, Müller and Javi Martinez didn't play at all, now under Flick Müller's place in the first team seems to be safe again (he's been playing instead of Thiago for the last 3 games, Thiago seems to have fallen out of favour of the new coach).

In real life Müller is somewhat a player without a real position. He's played as a lone striker, as a second striker in 2-striker systems, out on the right flank and also in an attack-minded central midfield role. In my personal opinion, Müller has been at his best when used as a second striker behind a more advanced striker. In FM terms that could either be as a Shadow Striker from the AMC position or as a DLF in a 2-striker formation (e.g. 442).

The Raumdeuter role was named after Müller (former player Mehmet Scholl once created the term Raumdeuter for Müller when he was a youngster under Louis van Gaal). In FM terms I agree with you that Müller is not really suited for the Raumdeuter role, as he simply lacks speed and technical skills to play on the flanks. In any single-striker system his best positions are probably a Shadow Striker from the AMC position in a 4231 or as a Mezzala on attack duty from the right CM spot in a 4123.

 

As for Coutinho, I usually play him as an AP in the AMC position because I use Coman and Gnabry as my wingers/IF. Sometimes I use him as a IF on the left, if Coman is unavailable or in need of a rest. Not really committed to creating a tactic around Coutinho, as he's only on loan and I'm reluctant to pay 100+ million for him (I might consider bringing in Havertz after the season should I decide to continue using the 4231).

 

You're correct on Kimmich being used as the DMC at the moment. Pavard is used as the RB (where Kimmich used to play). However, in FM Pavard is more of a central defender and lacks the speed and technical skills to get forward as a wing back - thus I prefer Kimmich as my DR and Pavard is my #3 centre-back.

Edited by burnum

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Very interesting @burnum, thanks for filling me in a little, we get Bundesliga coverage here on BT, which I don't have, but Bundesliga UK on YouTube upload game highlights & livestream some cup games & BL II matches so I catch whatever I can 

The last year or so I've reading up on the treble winning Bayern which was phenomenal! There are quite a few threads on these boards about it 

Re: Mulller, I agree the RMD role isn't that suitable for him (even though he created it) & his role is pretty hard to create on FM because of how he plays, like you say, it's like a less attacking striker as he'll drift in behind Lewandowski like a second striker. The RMD role has him in line with the striker & has zero defensive responsibility, a RMD(S) would be fantastic  :D

That's how I had the front 4 set, with Coutinho as the AP(S) & it worked really well for that first season, I brought James back on a free for the second season, that's when the ME update came in. Perisic on the left as an IF(S) worked very well, he got close to 20 goals for me that first season  

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