Useful hints on roles and duties in 4-2-3-1

[NabsKebabs]

7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, let's just clarify something. First, I have never tried to impose my view on anyone, either in this particular thread or the forum in general. Second, nowhere in the OP I made any mention of "rules"; I was talking exclusively about "hints" (as the title says) and "basic principles", none of which are meant to be set in stone. Moreover, I encouraged (in the OP) all those who disagree with me to contribute to a constructive discussion by sharing their views and arguments. I don't think that I'm the smartest FM player in the world, just trying to share my experience of the game. Whoever thinks otherwise is free to express their opinion.

Some even complained because I bolded the points in my OP that I believe are particularly important, which is so ridiculous that it does not even deserve any further comment.

And last but not least, the only reason I did not provide (more detailed) explanations for theses in the OP is that I cannot know in advance what in particular might not be clear to someone. But anyone is free to ask me a specific question (provided of course it's pertinent to the topic). 

To be fair, your post did give a helpful general guide.

Certain mods and/or posters are very against general help/guides on this forum which is a bit weird tbh. How are beginners meant to have guidance when they just hear "anything can work" from certain mods and/or posters.

Edited November 4, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[westy8chimp]

5 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

To be fair, your post did give a helpful general guide.

Not one of the bullet points is actually helpful though

For each one you could replace it with the exact opposite and it would be just as (in) valid... Because there is zero reasoning. It also assumes that its generally helpful to solely consider roles and duties without any thought to how you want the whole tactic to play. 

----

You know, you just like to stir 

[NabsKebabs]

9 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Not one of the bullet points is actually helpful though

For each one you could replace it with the exact opposite and it would be just as (in) valid... Because there is zero reasoning. It also assumes that its generally helpful to solely consider roles and duties without any thought to how you want the whole tactic to play. 

It's a helpful guide for a balanced 4231. I don't necessarily agree with everything and it is very general/rigid but not at all bad for a beginner who's trying to balance their 4231. 

9 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

 

You know, you just like to stir 

How do I like to stir? The tactics forum is honestly cancer, by stating my opinion, I'm apparently stirring?  It's almost like only 3-4 people are allowed have an opinion in this forum. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by NabsKebabs

[callamity]

9 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

 It's almost like only 3-4 people are allowed have an opinion in this forum. 

Every one is allowed an opinion, it's just that if you are not one of the 3-4 people you are wrong 

 

I like stirring, i was born with a wooden spoon

[ShirazS]

26 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Not one of the bullet points is actually helpful though

For each one you could replace it with the exact opposite and it would be just as (in) valid... Because there is zero reasoning. It also assumes that its generally helpful to solely consider roles and duties without any thought to how you want the whole tactic to play. 

----

You know, you just like to stir 

I think you're being really harsh. It's not a complete guide on 4-2-3-1's or tactics (It's not meant to be) but to say it's 'nonsense', 'not helpful', 'invalid' is just wrong. It may not be helpful to you but it definitely is to me and other people looking to get a basic, balanced tactic working.

Edited November 4, 2018 by ShirazS

[westy8chimp]

1 minute ago, ShirazS said:

I think you're being really harsh. It's not a complete guide on 4-2-3-1's or tactics (It's not meant to be) but to say it's 'nonsense', 'not helpful', 'invalid' is just wrong. It may not be helpful to you but it definitely is to me and other people looking to get a basic, balanced tactic working.

Harsh or not... If you have any questions or doubts about your 4231 i recommend raising it, rather than use this guide. Then the advice can be tailored to your preferred style and the players at your disposal. 

[noikeee]

Em 02/11/2018 em 21:48, yonko disse:

I like to use one attacking and one supporting fullback, so for me having a defend duty in midfield is a must (on the same side as the more attacking fullback, so he can cover for him). Also because most likely I play with Balanced/Positive Team Mentality. 

My favorite set up is:

----------------CF-S----------------

IF-S-----------AP-A-----------IF-A

---------CM-D------DLP-S--------

FB-A----CD-D----CD-D----FB-S

 

I'm interested to know what do you mean about the pressing systems with 4231. Naturally because it's a top heavy formation, I think it's ideal for high pressing set up. A variation might be to let the front 4 press heavy, while the midfield 2 sit back more and sweep behind them. Maybe creating waves of pressing.

The one good thing that came out of this thread is I tried this setup of roles/duties in a throwaway save with Dortmund and I think this is good stuff. Pretty efficient breaking down defensive teams at home. I'm struggling a bit away with teams that press me though, but that's a problem I've been having in general whatever I try.

That's obviously all contingent on my own TIs/mentality/all the rest though. If I can't ever figure out the away/being pressed thing, I'll open up my own thread asking for advice.

[sporadicsmiles]

Don't take my post the wrong way, I am always happy to see people posting ideas, and discussion is great. I will also look to give constructive criticism where possible, and the thing about the OP is that it does look like a set of rules. That is how some people will treat it, and that does not help them much if they want to learn how to make a tactic organically. It is not to dissimilar to someone copying a tactic they see someone else post to the letter, without considering why. For me, the one thing that is missing in the OP is the why. I do not necessarily disagree with much of what you post, but it is without any context. There is no idea of the style you want to play with these instructions. There is no idea of why or how you want different aspects of what you say to link into the global scheme you want to create. These are absolutely vital elements in building a tactic, even for beginners. It is better to understand why something works, rather than using it because you know that it does.

That is mostly why I question its usefulness as an OP. Now, as a way to spark discussion about building a tactic, and how to implement different ideas, it will work fine; you can see that from the replies you have, and the discussion that has been generated. Like I said, all discussion is useful, and all posts are welcome. As is all feedback, criticism, etc. 

[sporadicsmiles]

12 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

To be fair, your post did give a helpful general guide.

Certain mods and/or posters are very against general help/guides on this forum which is a bit weird tbh. How are beginners meant to have guidance when they just hear "anything can work" from certain mods and/or posters.

The general guide to balancing a 4231 is in the game, as the default setup you get when you select it as a tactic. Other than that, there is not really a general guide to player roles like this. You simply cannot consider roles and duties in isolation. There is so much more to a tactic that that. I mean one of the things in the OP (sorry to seem like I am picking on this post, but it is helpful to make my point) is using a WB or IWB on defend. These are two vastly different roles that will dramatically affect how your team plays. Now, both roles are indeed suitable to a 4231, but you cannot just slot them in and expect them to work. You pick one of the other based on what you want the player to do, and how you want him to interact with others. There cannot be a general guide for that, rather a very comprehensive one would be required. 

Now, as I said above, I welcome any posts that can lead to meaningful discussion. This is one of them. However, part of discussion is criticism of the ideas. Criticism is how you improve yourself. My criticism of this thread is that it reads like some hard and fast rules, and there is no justification for any of the choices. This is entirely valid. I actually think Experienced Defender probably does have good reasons for putting what he did. It is those ideas I want to explore, and it is why that is going to help new players. While you can learn rudimentary parts of a game by copying others, to truly master if you have to understand what you do and why you did it. 

I also do not really want to get drawn in to some debate on the nature of the forum. I have never seen a post from anyone go unanswered or them receive some feedback. Sure, nobody tells them exactly what to do, but that is not the point of this forum.

[RodentofDoom]

On ‎01‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 23:27, Experienced Defender said:

 

DEFEND DUTIES:

- You should have at least 3 players on defend duty

- Even the most defensive versions of 4-2-3-1 should not use more than 5 defend duties (including central defenders and excluding PF/DF on defend) 

- You should not have both fullbacks on attack duty

 

OK, there's a lack of reasoning given for the hints, but I'm going to look at the comments given above.

These hints mirror my own approach to tactics, not just the 4231 but pretty much all of them.

 

So

#1 why have a minimum of 3 defend duties.

Firstly, even with an aggressive attacking tactic it still needs to be defensively sound, your own goal needs to be protected.

By utilising a 3rd Defend duty in the DM/CM strata you provide the minimum adequate cover to your 2 central defenders, without this 3rd defend duty they are vulnerable and exposed, especially to counter attacks made using a long direct pass overhead.

So on point #1 - it's a solid piece of advice that only lacks the explanation of the thought process behind it.

 

#2 why is 5 defend duties the most to assign.

The 4231 is in concept an attacking variant of the 451 with 4 players (almost half of the outfield team) in advanced threatening positions

There are better 451 options for defensively minded tactics (ie the 2DM variant)

This I feel falls more in the "Use the right tool for the task in hand" area for guidance to people

So on point #2 - I can see where the OP was heading, but fundamentally the advice given doesn't say what it needs to say.

 

#3 Not having both fullbacks on attack

Again I think this is about providing an adequate level of cover to the defending parts of the team

A player in the DM/CMR position with a defend duty will cover to a limited extent the right flank allowing that FB/WB to be given an attack duty

However as the other DM/CM is usually assigned either a support or attack duty having the DL position also utilising an attack duty will leave the defence exposed and vulnerable to attack & counter attacking play

So again on point #3 the advice makes sense.

 

 

 

This is my take on it anyway

Yes the OP would have been better with an explanation of the thought process behind each statement

But that lack of explanation doesn't necessarily negate the validity of most of the content

[westy8chimp]

47 minutes ago, RodentofDoom said:

But that lack of explanation doesn't necessarily negate the validity of most of the content

 

48 minutes ago, RodentofDoom said:

By utilising a 3rd Defend duty in the DM/CM strata you provide the minimum adequate cover to your 2 central defenders, without this 3rd defend duty they are vulnerable and exposed, especially to counter attacks made using a long direct pass overhead.

The defensive line, line of engagement and pressing urgency are potentially far more important than the number of defend duties in the team... In terms of how and where you win the ball. 

It is invalid in as much, i could write 'it is important to have 0 defend dutys in a 4231' without any justification. I could create a successful 4231 without any defend duties... But it doesnt make it helpful advice. 

By creating the tactic and explaining how it works... You can perhaps impart some knowledge and ideas that others find interesting. 

That said, some feedback to the OP has been positive... But to me thats why i wanted to voice my opinion and concern... Because this is one of those dreaded threads that lead (in a year or two time) "i once read you should always have 3-5 defend duties in a 4231..." and the wiser of us will think..."wtf did he read that? It doesnt make sense when a 4231 will play different from barcelona to man utd to luton town..." 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Don't take my post the wrong way, I am always happy to see people posting ideas, and discussion is great. I will also look to give constructive criticism where possible

Don't worry, I have absolutely no problem with people who disagree with me (either partly or completely) as long as they communicate in a normal way. And you certainly are one of them 

 

4 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

the thing about the OP is that it does look like a set of rules. That is how some people will treat it, and that does not help them much if they want to learn how to make a tactic organically

Yeah, it seems so, though my intention was entirely opposite. But that's the "risk" of wanting to help. The road to hell is paved with good intentions 

 

4 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

For me, the one thing that is missing in the OP is the why

I fully accept responsibility for this omission. Actually, the reason the "why" is missing in the OP is that I believed (obviously wrongly) that it would be easier both for me (as the OP-er) and other posters to simply ask me about whatever is not clear to them. The topic - as some people correctly noticed - was meant primarily for tactical novices merely as one of (many) starting points to consider when trying to create a tactic utilizing this particular formation. And it is solely about roles and duties (not in a rigid sense, but just as a basic guideline), not about an entire tactic and all its elements. Simply because there are a number of tactics and playing styles you can use with any formation. For example, Man Utd and Newcastle may both use a 4231, but apart from the same formation, most other aspects of their respective tactics will probably be different.

[jc577]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The topic - as some people correctly noticed - was meant primarily for tactical novices merely as one of (many) starting points to consider when trying to create a tactic utilizing this particular formation. And it is solely about roles and duties (not in a rigid sense, but just as a basic guideline), not about an entire tactic and all its elements.

 

Some of the advice you gave was spot on, and I think your intentions were good, but the issue I have is that you made a 'basic guideline' seem like hard and fast rules. I understand that some people find tactics difficult, so your advice was generic in order not to confuse them further, but without any context, inexperienced users won't learn very much. What would have been more useful would have been to break down some of the pros and cons of the tactic, from an object point of view... maybe even upload a screenshot of a successful 4231 you've created and list why it works, how it creates space, who uses the space etc. 

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, jc577 said:

What would have been more useful would have been to break down some of the pros and cons of the tactic, from an object point of view...

This is a good idea, I'll seriously consider it  Btw, I am not going to open a new thread as I think it's better to do it here.

 

16 hours ago, jc577 said:

maybe even upload a screenshot of a successful 4231 you've created and list why it works, how it creates space, who uses the space etc

Also a good idea, but unfortunately hard to implement because I play FM on another computer which is not mine own, so uploading screenshots would be a bit problematic. Plus, I don't use 4231 in my current save (Crystal Palace) because it simply does not suit my players. However, I can give a specific example of a team that is suitable for playing a 4231, with more details on possible roles, duties and other instructions.

[Tunes10]

Em 01/11/2018 em 23:27, Experienced Defender disse:

THE CENTRAL MIDFIELD DUO:

- Neither of the two central midfielders should be on attack duty

- At least one of the MCs should be on support duty

- The most offensive role occupying a MC position should be a Mezzala on support duty. In that case, however, it is advisable that the fullback on that side be on defend duty (ideally WB or IWB on defend)

- An ideal combination in the midfield duo should include one holding player (such as DLP on either duty) and one runner (e.g. box-to-box, CM on support, MEZ on support or BWM on support)

- If you use an advanced or roaming PM as part of the midfield duo, the fullback on that flank should not be on attack duty, with the most "offensive" role being FB on support

- If you use an advanced PM as part of the midfield duo, the other MC should be either a carrilero or BWM on support or box-to-box MF

- If you use a roaming PM as part of the midfield duo, the other MC should be on defend duty

THE FRONT FOUR:

- You should not have more than 2 attack duties among your four most advanced players

- If one of your wide forwards (AMR or AML) is on attack duty, the other one should not be

- The striker and AMC should not be on attack duty at the same time

- If your striker is on attack duty, then either AMR or AML should also be on attack duty

- If you use only one attack duty among the front four, then it should not be your striker (though in some cases it can work, e.g. with a trequartista)

- You can even have all the front four on support duty

And one final word: Like (almost) any other formation/system, 4-2-3-1 can be used with any type of mentality or playing style, but it is most suitable for systems that look to control possession and dominate the game.

I use tactic similar with that with good results so far.

Unfortunately my AMC (support, get further forward,  and roam from position) doesn’t have good classifications and doesn’t seem very important in the attack (few goals and assists)...

(I manage fcporto and play with Oliver or otavio in this position)

what do you suggest?

Edited November 5, 2018 by Tunes10

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Tunes10 said:

Unfortunately my AMC (support, get further forward,  and roam from position) doesn’t have good classifications and doesn’t seem very important in the attack (few goals and assists)...

(I manage fcporto and play with Oliver or otavio in this position)

what do you suggest?

Can you post the screenshots of their player profiles here? As well as of your tactical screen.

[toffee71]

                          PF-at    
W-at    AM-su                    IF-su
         BWM-d    MEZ-at
WB-su  CD-d    CD-bpd    WB-su
                  SK-d                  

This is what I have been using now after playing around with my preferred 4231, ok I'm playing as EFC, and so I tweaked my preferred roles for my players preferred roles.

Yes it is wonky, my second tactic is the same  but the MCs switch, as do the 3 AMCs, so its just a mirror tactic. My biggest problem is a nice problem, none of my wide men are fully green unless i change my W to sup and my IF to A, but they are all over half marks for role suitability and if chasing a game I may turn it up, for full green

After letting go of my stubbornness of my preferred roles, and suiting the players I found it much better in game, chances, assists and goals from all over.

Just my tuppence.

[Tunes10]

55 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Can you post the screenshots of their player profiles here? As well as of your tactical screen.

 

[Experienced Defender]

8 minutes ago, Tunes10 said:

 

Both Oliver and Otavio are born playmakers according to their attributes. My personal first choice would be Otavio, primarily because he has better off the ball (and is slightly faster), plus can play in all 3 AM positions. Now, whether you should play him in AMC, AML or AMR position as an APM depends on your other players. In case the roles and duties you selected for AML (IFs), AMR (RMD) and ST (AF) are really the best for these 3 players, then Otavio's ideal position should be AMC, with the role being APM on support.

As for the rest of your roles and duties, as well as other tactical settings (instructions)... honestly, there is too much in your tactic that needs to be seriously reconsidered (to say the least). Too many instructions, and a lot of them needlessly aggressive and extreme. I understand that you want to play attacking football (as suggested by your team mentality), but there are much more sensible ways to achieve it.

[Tunes10]

28 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Both Oliver and Otavio are born playmakers according to their attributes. My personal first choice would be Otavio, primarily because he has better off the ball (and is slightly faster), plus can play in all 3 AM positions. Now, whether you should play him in AMC, AML or AMR position as an APM depends on your other players. In case the roles and duties you selected for AML (IFs), AMR (RMD) and ST (AF) are really the best for these 3 players, then Otavio's ideal position should be AMC, with the role being APM on support.

As for the rest of your roles and duties, as well as other tactical settings (instructions)... honestly, there is too much in your tactic that needs to be seriously reconsidered (to say the least). Too many instructions, and a lot of them needlessly aggressive and extreme. I understand that you want to play attacking football (as suggested by your team mentality), but there are much more sensible ways to achieve it.

Thanks!

[RodentofDoom]

Phear my amazing art skills. …

The red & green arrows are how your (S/A) duty players will most likely move as your attacking phase begins

Green is before/as it starts

Red is afterwards

Should help you visualise potential gameplay.

 

The TI's

Why direct, v.high tempo & work into box ??

Why exploit left-flank when there is only a IF who will cut inside as the FB on support is a late runner and may not advance very high up the pitch

Why pass into space, you're compressing them into there own goal area, what space ???

 

iirc Work Ball into Box does the following

•  - Reduces tempo
•  - Reduces passing length

 

Hope this helps

 

[Tunes10]

7 horas atrás, RodentofDoom disse:

The TI's

Why direct, v.high tempo & work into box ??

Why exploit left-flank when there is only a IF who will cut inside as the FB on support is a late runner and may not advance very high up the pitch

Why pass into space, you're compressing them into there own goal area, what space ???

iirc Work Ball into Box does the following

•  - Reduces tempo
•  - Reduces passing length

Hope this helps

 

Thanks for the advice.

I am aware of most of the things that you said and you are absolutely right. I’ve read a lot of things (especially rashidi on addicted to fm) but sometimes we keep doing the same mistakes 😉

Edited November 6, 2018 by Tunes10

[bar333]

Gotta LOL at people saying 4-2-3-1 is OP in FM19. It's utter **** as it has been for a good while with the match engine of the last couple of games. I'm playing a pretty bog standard 4-2-3-1 and the only way it creates anything in this year's match engine is through crosses from the full backs to inside forwards on the far post. Attacking play in this year's match engine seems even more reliant on wide play and crosses than last year's (any player in AMR\AML will play almost like a straight up winger regardless of role or instructions, all they do is take the ball to the byline and cross) with even less chances created through the centre, which... I mean, hell, that's an achievement and I didn't think that was possible.

The two central attackers are underwhelming and borderline impossible to get consistently good performances out of, as has been the case for years. Inside forwards are still borderline impossible to turn into actual goalscorers, as has been the case for years.

I still swear by the 4-2-3-1 because it's simple and I'm too familiar with it to let it go.

Edited November 6, 2018 by bar333

[NabsKebabs]

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

Gotta LOL at people saying 4-2-3-1 is OP in FM19. It's utter **** as it has been for a good while with the match engine of the last couple of games. I'm playing a pretty bog standard 4-2-3-1 and the only way it creates anything in this year's match engine is through crosses from the full backs to inside forwards on the far post. Attacking play in this year's match engine seems even more reliant on wide play and crosses than last year's (any player in AMR\AML will play almost like a straight up winger regardless of role or instructions, all they do is take the ball to the byline and cross) with even less chances created through the centre, which... I mean, hell, that's an achievement and I didn't think that was possible.

The two central attackers are underwhelming and borderline impossible to get consistently good performances out of, as has been the case for years. Inside forwards are still borderline impossible to turn into actual goalscorers, as has been the case for years.

I still swear by the 4-2-3-1 because it's simple and I'm too familiar with it to let it go.

I agree it's not OP but disagree with everything else you say. 

[mikcheck]

@Rashidi what about 4231deep narrow?  How would you set it up? You dont have a video about it, do you?

Could you please just give your input with this formation? Would you change something?

Thanks!

Edited December 4, 2018 by mikcheck

[westy8chimp]

@mikcheck I'm not Rashidi... But I really don't like that set up. What style of play do you envision?

The fbs have to give width, so fb-a, wb-s/a or cwb is fine... But your attack is where I find fault. 

Some of it just my taste... Like a TQ for me is a special player... So give him room to play. 

But more objectively I don't think it looks dynamic enough. Who will work the channel? Who will push the dline back to let the TQ find space? I think those ams as mezzalas would be more effective. But I would certainly change something too add more runs and variety. 

[mikcheck]

16 horas atrás, westy8chimp disse:

@mikcheck I'm not Rashidi... But I really don't like that set up. What style of play do you envision?

The fbs have to give width, so fb-a, wb-s/a or cwb is fine... But your attack is where I find fault. 

Some of it just my taste... Like a TQ for me is a special player... So give him room to play. 

But more objectively I don't think it looks dynamic enough. Who will work the channel? Who will push the dline back to let the TQ find space? I think those ams as mezzalas would be more effective. But I would certainly change something too add more runs and variety. 

Thanks for your input. I forgot to say that i'm still playing FM18.

Ok so my first idea was to use the TQ on the right side and the AM(S) on the right, but I want the outside AM's to be pressing a lot and that's not possible with TQ, so I kept him in the middle.

The left one is AM(A) but he has the same PI as a Shadow Striker except for dribble more, I just don't want him to always be running with the ball, the're already a TQ doing that.

As far as the style I want, basically to play a more patient build up with shorter passing exchanges between my players, all my front players have good off the ball and vision so I also want them to be more expressive. I also told them to press more and hard tackle. I feel that a more agressive striker like Poacher or AF doesn't suit that style and I find him isolated sometimes. DLF(A) will start deeper but still make runs into the box.

Edited December 5, 2018 by mikcheck

[djpdavey]

@Experienced Defender How would you adapt this to facing different opposition and formations? e.g. 442, 4231(2dm), 4-1-2-3, 3-5-2,3-4-1-2, As Favourites, underdogs, or evens?

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, djpdavey said:

@Experienced Defender How would you adapt this to facing different opposition and formations? e.g. 442, 4231(2dm), 4-1-2-3, 3-5-2,3-4-1-2, As Favourites, underdogs, or evens?

My general approach is not to adapt to a specific opposition formation alone, but to analyze their overall playing style, strengths and weaknesses, and then make some tweaks to my primary tactic based on what I know about the opponent. And given that I watch all my matches in full, I also make tweaks during each match when I think it's needed. In tougher games, of course I'll be more cautious and conservative. Against weaker opposition, I usually start not too aggressively, but watching what's going on and then see what type of tweaks I should make in an attempt to break them down (or to improve my defense if I notice they are threatening me on the counter).

[djpdavey]

On 24/01/2019 at 15:13, Experienced Defender said:

My general approach is not to adapt to a specific opposition formation alone, but to analyze their overall playing style, strengths and weaknesses, and then make some tweaks to my primary tactic based on what I know about the opponent. And given that I watch all my matches in full, I also make tweaks during each match when I think it's needed. In tougher games, of course I'll be more cautious and conservative. Against weaker opposition, I usually start not too aggressively, but watching what's going on and then see what type of tweaks I should make in an attempt to break them down (or to improve my defense if I notice they are threatening me on the counter).

watching your games on full? Wow your seasons must take a long time to get through. take it you're not doing the defuge challenge lol

[Experienced Defender]

48 minutes ago, djpdavey said:

watching your games on full? Wow your seasons must take a long time to get through

Yes! I manage to play one match a week on average 

But for me FM is a lot more than "just a game", and I am really enjoying it to the fullest (whenever time allows me to) 

[z464]

On 02/11/2018 at 11:44, Rashidi said:

The 4231 is pretty OP in FM19, in most cases now if you have the players for it, you can actually use 2 support players without too many issues. It all depends on your backline as well. I created one for Arsenal and they whitewashed Watford 4-0. Watford stayed in their half with the gunners laying waste to their half. Went to Blackburn made a 4231 there too, and they are romping away at the top of the championship. With both clubs I feel that there are times when you can just play on support. Against some sides maybe you want to keep one on defend, but this will depend on how you want to use the backs in your team. 

The decision on how to use the backline will determine your midfield duty configuration. You are absolutely right about player traits, picking the perfect player for one of the two cm roles is irrelevant if you have the wrong traits.  In FM19 the pressing style you choose to use will ultimately determine how good your 4231, how you choose the players for the role and finally knowing when to go support/support and support/defend will also come into play.

The 4231 and the 442 diamond, are really fun to play in FM19.

Agreed . Both cm roles are very important in 4231 . 

There are several combinations depends on how we set up the backline .  

[djpdavey]

On 30/01/2019 at 16:13, Experienced Defender said:

Yes! I manage to play one match a week on average 

But for me FM is a lot more than "just a game", and I am really enjoying it to the fullest (whenever time allows me to) 

So do you stick with one version of the game for 2-3 years? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, djpdavey said:

So do you stick with one version of the game for 2-3 years? 

No. Though I suppose I play it a bit longer than most FM players. But my primary goal of playing FM is not winning titles, but experimenting with tactics and when it comes to results - to be either within expectations or slightly overachieve. I usually play a few saves simultaneously, because I want to see how tactically flexible I am with different types of teams.

[forte]

Great thread, given me a lot of insights on how to tweak my 4231. Hope for for activity

[NickThomas]

Cheers for this. Been away from the game for a few years and this helped me get back into the swing of things  

[Overmars]

I really like using at least one CM(d) or DLP(d). It looks realistic in game action, helps shield the defenders from relentless counter attacks, and holding midfielders are great bailout passing options for everyone else on the team. I actually like using CM(d) and DLP together when I'm not desperate for a goal because the two cautious midfielders stabilize everything and force the opposition to gamble more themselves. With four attacking players of my own, I never feel like I can't score, even if my two central midfielders are cautious. To me, they should be focused on tackles, interceptions, passes, and positional solidity.

As for the narrow 4-2-3-1 discussed upthread, I've always found that to be a junk formation in FM because three AMCs never seem to spread out properly. Roaming from position can kind of fix that, but defensively, it often fails to cover the pitch appropriately.

[NickThomas]

On 02/11/2018 at 15:17, Experienced Defender said:

It always depends on what types of players I have at my disposal at the moment. But my (generally) favorite setup in 4231 is this:

 DLFa

APMs      AMs       IFa

BtBM   DLPs

 

(I)WBd   CDd   CDc    WBs

SWKs

What type of football do you tend to play with this setup?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, NickThomas said:

What type of football do you tend to play with this setup?

Certainly not defensive and certainly not extremely attacking, but something in between. A sort of control possession game for example, but without boring and overly patient build-up play.

[Gee_Simpson]

Just found this thread, and as I love the 4231 and I'm also a tactical novice, this thread is so useful to me! I'm hoping I can create a successful 4231 using some of the OP's tips. 

One question though, I've read before that in a 4231 it can be one dimensional to use the central AMC player as an AP on support because if the other team has a central DM, they can just mark the AP out of the game. I thought to combat this it could be useful to ask the AP to roam? I will be using Bayer Leverkusen and Havertz seems suited best to a AP-s role instead of a AM-s. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm hoping I can create a successful 4231 using some of the OP's tips

Good luck mate. But be careful, because 4231 is a system that basically suits stronger teams. It does not mean that you cannot use it with a weaker side, but you'll need more tactical knowledge and experience to make it work.

 

2 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I've read before that in a 4231 it can be one dimensional to use the central AMC player as an AP on support because if the other team has a central DM, they can just mark the AP out of the game. I thought to combat this it could be useful to ask the AP to roam?

It's all relative. If you notice that the opposition are successfully marking your AMC/AP out of the game via their DM, you can change his role to a standard AM and then add player instructions such as "take more risks" that will make him a sort of quasi-PM, albeit without being a ball-magnet. But then again, if he was marked out of the game as an AP, the opposition will probably be able to neutralize him as an AM either. But If he has good movement (off the ball), anticipation, decisions, first touch, composure, balance etc., that will make it harder for the opposition to mark him out, regardless of his role. And that has nothing to do with "one-dimensionality". What I regard as one-dimensionality is when, for example, both wide forwards have a completely identical role and duty (e.g. both play as IFs on attack). Or anything to that effect.

As for the "Roam from position" PI, I almost always use it for an AP, not only in AMC but also in a CM position (and on either duty). Because if he is told to roam, he can draw out  the opposition DM or whoever is possibly instructed to specifically mark him of position, and thus can create space for other teammates. Btw, that's why I never tell any of my players to specifically mark any opposition player, no matter how important he may be. What I use instead are OIs. The only exception is telling my AMC or a striker (depending on the system I use) to mark the opposition DM, but I do it only when the oppo DM is key to organization of their play (like Jorginho at Chelsea or Fernandinho at City). Otherwise - no.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Experienced Defender

[Gee_Simpson]

Thanks mate. I'm going Bayer Leverkusen and their squad seems suited to a 4231. Havertz should be good at AP-s. I'm a tactical novice, but Leverkusen are pretty good.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Gee_Simpson

[Gee_Simpson]

On 01/11/2018 at 23:27, Experienced Defender said:

After all, this is why you should not use a 4-2-3-1 at all costs, no matter how much you may like it.

So in response to the above, am I right in saying that you don't recommend a 4231 to be used for every game? I'm trying to create a 4231 but it's so inconsistent, in fact it doesn't matter what shape I use, my tactics are never consistent. I really want to make something work as I don't want to revert to just downloading tactics again

4231 and the 4141 (4123) are my 2 favourite formations and I'm determined to get one of them working. I want my striker to score the majority of goals so the 4231 is my slight preference. 

@Experienced Defender

Edited May 24, 2019 by Gee_Simpson

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

am I right in saying that you don't recommend a 4231 to be used for every game?

I do not recommend that a 4231 be used for every team. But that can also be said for any formation btw. Because if you want to use a certain system, you first need to have a certain type of players. 

 

9 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

4231 and the 4141 (4123) are my 2 favourite formations and I'm determined to get one of them working. I want my striker to score the majority of goals so the 4231 is my slight preference

Okay, but if you focus entirely on your striker scoring most of goals, you may neglect some other important elements of the tactic, which can ultimately lead to the collapse of the entire system.

[Gee_Simpson]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I do not recommend that a 4231 be used for every team. But that can also be said for any formation btw. Because if you want to use a certain system, you first need to have a certain type of players. 

 

Ah right. 

I'm going Bayer Leverkusen, so they have a pretty good team already, with hard working central midfielders that suit holding roles in a 4231.

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but if you focus entirely on your striker scoring most of goals, you may neglect some other important elements of the tactic, which can ultimately lead to the collapse of the entire system.

I should probably rephrase that; I want my striker to be the top goalscorer in my system but would be happy with other contributions. 

[Experienced Defender]

54 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm going Bayer Leverkusen, so they have a pretty good team already, with hard working central midfielders that suit holding roles in a 4231.

That's good. Btw, what are their stats for positioning, tackling, stamina, teamwork and acceleration?

 

56 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I should probably rephrase that; I want my striker to be the top goalscorer in my system but would be happy with other contributions

Well, that basically comes down to the same. Anyway, in that case you need to create a system in which others will have to do all the "dirty job" in order to make the striker entirely focused on getting into scoring chances. The most logical choice for the striker's role would be poacher. Now when you know that, you can think about how the rest of the system could be set up. You need to create as many different ways of creating chances for him as possible.

[Gee_Simpson]

23 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's good. Btw, what are their stats for positioning, tackling, stamina, teamwork and acceleration?

 

Well, that basically comes down to the same. Anyway, in that case you need to create a system in which others will have to do all the "dirty job" in order to make the striker entirely focused on getting into scoring chances. The most logical choice for the striker's role would be poacher. Now when you know that, you can think about how the rest of the system could be set up. You need to create as many different ways of creating chances for him as possible.

Thanks mate. 

The holding midfielders Leverkusen have are as follows:

Charles Aranguiz: Positioning - 13, Tackling - 13, Stamina - 17, Teamwork - 18, Acceleration - 12. This guy is more a DLP type all rounder, as he is creative also, a very good midfielder. 

Lars Bender: Positioning - 14, Tackling - 17, Stamina - 17, Teamwork - 19, Acceleration - 11.

Julian Baumgartlinger: Positioning - 13, Tackling - 16, Stamina - 19, Teamwork - 16, Acceleration - 12.

Dominik Kohr: Positioning - 13, Tackling - 16, Stamina - 17, Teamwork - 16, Acceleration - 11.

So as you can see, they are all very hard working midfielders apart from having low Acceleration. Leverkusen have some money at the start so I could bring a quicker player in, but I prefer to sign youngsters mostly at decent sized teams like Leverkusen. Sven Bender can also play as a holding midfielder, almost identical defensive attributes to his twin Lars but I use Sven at CB. Brandt and Havertz can also play in central midfield but obviously are creative types so I haven't included them here. 

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

The holding midfielders Leverkusen have are as follows:

Charles Aranguiz: Positioning - 13, Tackling - 13, Stamina - 17, Teamwork - 18, Acceleration - 12. This guy is more a DLP type all rounder, as he is creative also, a very good midfielder. 

Lars Bender: Positioning - 14, Tackling - 17, Stamina - 17, Teamwork - 19, Acceleration - 11.

Julian Baumgartlinger: Positioning - 13, Tackling - 16, Stamina - 19, Teamwork - 16, Acceleration - 12.

Dominik Kohr: Positioning - 13, Tackling - 16, Stamina - 17, Teamwork - 16, Acceleration - 11.

Very good 

 

10 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

So as you can see, they are all very hard working midfielders apart from having low Acceleration. Leverkusen have some money at the start so I could bring a quicker player in

No need for quicker players. I mean, you can buy one quicker player, but you do not need to replace all these guys with quicker ones. While their acceleration is not extraordinary, it's okay when combined with other attributes. And btw, the lower acceleration can be compensated by setting the tactic up wisely.

[Gee_Simpson]

19 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

No need for quicker players. I mean, you can buy one quicker player, but you do not need to replace all these guys with quicker ones. While their acceleration is not extraordinary, it's okay when combined with other attributes. And btw, the lower acceleration can be compensated by setting the tactic up wisely.

I want to play a high pressing game as that's how I like to see teams defend in real life, I know the 4231 suits this but I'm aware it will demand a lot of the players. Being a tactical novice, I'm very unsure what mentality to use, my main problem is actually noticing the difference between mentalities, I'm pretty useless at spotting things unfortunately, it's something I hope to get better at as I play. 

[Experienced Defender]

36 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I want to play a high pressing game as that's how I like to see teams defend in real life, I know the 4231 suits this but I'm aware it will demand a lot of the players. Being a tactical novice, I'm very unsure what mentality to use, my main problem is actually noticing the difference between mentalities, I'm pretty useless at spotting things unfortunately, it's something I hope to get better at as I play

There are different ways to do things. You can post a screenshot of your tactic, and I (we) can then tell you if there are potential flaws or risks and what you could do to avoid or at least mitigate them.