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jc577

Away game management against the big boys

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Hi guys,

To provide a bit of context, I'm managing Roma over in Serie A, doing pretty well sitting in 2nd on goal difference. Will post my tactic below, but we're playing a standard 4231, but I'm struggling to get my front four to properly click... despite that we've won 10, lost 2 and drawn 1 of our opening 13 games, so I guess I can't complain too much, although we are overly reliant on set-pieces. I realise our 'struggles' may be due to giving the wrong duties to some of our forward players, but it's difficult to get the balance right and have backup players to slot in if my first XI are tired or injured. 

Anyway, we've only conceded 12 goals from 13 matches, but 10!!! have come away from home against Juventus and Napoli, who just tore through our defence at will, along with a 3-1 loss at the Bernabéu, which really should have been more. My question is, are these results solely down to my tactics, or do you thinking training could be a factor, seeing as how powerful it is in FM19. We tend to focus on: attacking set pieces, defensive set pieces, and defensive team shape in these big away games, but seemingly to no avail. Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated. 

1607274765_ScreenShot2018-10-31at04_35_15.thumb.png.245fc5b4a21fe8c13cfab57e4a13c1e3.png

Edited by jc577

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6 hours ago, jc577 said:

we've only conceded 12 goals from 13 matches, but 10!!! have come away from home against Juventus and Napoli, who just tore through our defence at will, along with a 3-1 loss at the Bernabéu, which really should have been more. My question is, are these results solely down to my tactics

When playing away, especially against strong sides (such as Juve, Napoli, Real...), your tactic definitely should be less offensive (more cautious) than when you play at home. So if you normally use positive mentality at home and/or against weaker opposition, in these tougher games you should consider reducing it at least to balanced, and sometimes even cautious. That's the first thing to take into account.

As for other tactical settings, well... both your FBs are set to a WB role, which IMO is quite risky defensively in a standard 4231, despite your RCM being on defend duty, because the system itself is top-heavy so you need to be particularly careful with roles and duties. Personally, I would change RB from WBat to FBat, to begin with.

6 hours ago, jc577 said:

I'm struggling to get my front four to properly click... despite that we've won 10, lost 2 and drawn 1 of our opening 13 games, so I guess I can't complain too much, although we are overly reliant on set-pieces. I realise our 'struggles' may be due to giving the wrong duties to some of our forward players, but it's difficult to get the balance right and have backup players to slot in if my first XI are tired or injured. 

I would say it's most probably due to wrong roles/duties, though I also don't see what's your main reason for playing "fairly narrow"? Especially given that your both wide forwards are given the IF role, so they will look to drift inside anyway,

But let's get back to roles and duties. What I usually advise people struggling with this type of issues in a systems such as 4231 and 4141DM Wide is deploying APM in a wide forward position. For example:

PFa

    IFa       AMs       APMs

  DLPs   BtBM

   WBs   CDd    CDc    FBa

SWKs

In tougher matches, it can be like this:

PFs

      IFs       SS       APMs

   DLPd   BTBM

     FBs   CDd   CDc   IWBd

My question for you: why did you give Dzeko the CF role specifically? I guess he is able to perform it well because he's no doubt a good player, but he could be (as) good in some other roles (TM, PF, poacher, maybe DLP). Can you post a screenshot of his player profile (attributes)?

 

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When I am good side playing the top sides, I tend to change my approach totally, and play a proper counter attacking mentality. The idea is to soak up as much pressure as I can, and hit on the break ("do an FM" to the AI). You have to make the choice of whether you can go toe-to-toe with the other side and try to wrest control of the game, or if you need to stop them playing. This will depend on how much faith you have in your players.

Focus on defending and fast counter attacks with pacy forwards. Using a 4213 with 2 DMCs in front of the defence makes for a very solid system which denies the opposition space around your box and forces them wide or to take long shots. You can play around with the roles as well to get something you are happy with, I do not think there is a right way to set up, different combinations achieve different things. The CM will usually be a CM(A), someone who will get forward quickly to support counters, but who will also defend (although he is not really one of the main lines of defence for me). Wingers/IF on attack on the flanks, with as much pace as possible. You can get them to mark the full backs if they are causing a lot of trouble on your flanks, but it is nice to leave them forward in that case to exploit the space the opposition FB has left. The striker varies. Sometimes a DLF(A), sometimes DLF(S), sometimes a TM(S). For me, this depends who is playing. A pacy player gets a role which will encourage him to get onto long balls. A slower player who is good at holding up is a TM, etc. 

This can result in the AI struggling to break you down. The defence will be solid, and mostly when I concede in this formation it is a set play or an individual error. You should also create 2 or 3 decent chances during a match, so all you have to do is take one of those. It does not work all the time; if you concede an early goal then it will not work, the AI will not over commit. However, in my current save in Germany, I have never lost to Bayern playing like this (after 6 games now I think). That has some element of luck, but it is easily the most successful thing I have ever tried when playing big sides away.

 

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Thanks for the responses guys, I haven't had time to reply (real life took over for a sec :brock: ) but I appreciate the responses. 

On 31/10/2018 at 11:37, Experienced Defender said:

As for other tactical settings, well... both your FBs are set to a WB role, which IMO is quite risky defensively in a standard 4231, despite your RCM being on defend duty, because the system itself is top-heavy so you need to be particularly careful with roles and duties. Personally, I would change RB from WBat to FBat, to begin with.

I see where you're coming from, but the WB-A gives me so much in attack; the player I'm using there resembles a winger more than a full-back tbh, but it is something I may consider changing the in the big games.

On 31/10/2018 at 11:37, Experienced Defender said:

though I also don't see what's your main reason for playing "fairly narrow

The reasons for this were twofold; A lot of my attacks were coming from the wingbacks, I wasn't seeing many combinations between the forward players so this was an attempt to get them playing a bit closer together. Also, I noticed in a couple of matches that we were playing long diagonals which were just easily intercepted, so again wanted the players closer to prevent this from happening. 

 

On 31/10/2018 at 11:37, Experienced Defender said:

But let's get back to roles and duties. What I usually advise people struggling with this type of issues in a systems such as 4231 and 4141DM Wide is deploying APM in a wide forward position. For example:

PFa

    IFa       AMs       APMs

  DLPs   BtBM

   WBs   CDd    CDc    FBa

SWKs

 

Interesting roles and duties there. I'd have reservations using a BBM purely because I've already got four forwards stationed high up the field, is there a need for another runner? Also, wouldn't the APMs and AMs, at least at times, be competing for the same space? 

Dzeko:

1991170886_ScreenShot2018-11-02at19_34_00.thumb.png.d6cecf47bbc340477420bbf45ff0e1a3.png

As you can see, whilst he's a very good traditional number 9, some of his ppms are almost playmaker like: comes deep to get the ball, plays one-twos and likes to switch the ball to other flank. I didn't really see the point in playing him as an AF, P, etc because he wouldn't be doing what I'd like due to his ppms. 

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@sporadicsmiles This is exactly how I used to set up my teams away from home against big teams when I first started playing the game, worked reasonably well and stole quite a few results. The tactics I created in FM18 were very successful, so I never really needed to tweak no matter who I was facing, whether we were home or away. However, none of those tactics used a 4231 formation which is very susceptible to counter-attacks, and my midfield isn't the quickest which likely only exacerbates the problem. This is very good advice though, perhaps it's something I should think about creating. I do love counter-attacks :D 

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1 hour ago, jc577 said:

Dzeko:

1991170886_ScreenShot2018-11-02at19_34_00.thumb.png.d6cecf47bbc340477420bbf45ff0e1a3.png

As you can see, whilst he's a very good traditional number 9, some of his ppms are almost playmaker like: comes deep to get the ball, plays one-twos and likes to switch the ball to other flank. I didn't really see the point in playing him as an AF, P, etc because he wouldn't be doing what I'd like due to his ppms. 

Yeah, his attributes are really suitable for a CF role :thup:

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16 hours ago, jc577 said:

@sporadicsmiles This is exactly how I used to set up my teams away from home against big teams when I first started playing the game, worked reasonably well and stole quite a few results. The tactics I created in FM18 were very successful, so I never really needed to tweak no matter who I was facing, whether we were home or away. However, none of those tactics used a 4231 formation which is very susceptible to counter-attacks, and my midfield isn't the quickest which likely only exacerbates the problem. This is very good advice though, perhaps it's something I should think about creating. I do love counter-attacks :D 

There is nothing wrong with occasionally trying to be Mourinho! I take great pleasure in a solid defensive performance, snatching a late winning goal, and having the AI manager say I was lucky in a press conference!

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On 31/10/2018 at 11:37, Experienced Defender said:

When playing away, especially against strong sides (such as Juve, Napoli, Real...), your tactic definitely should be less offensive (more cautious) than when you play at home. So if you normally use positive mentality at home and/or against weaker opposition, in these tougher games you should consider reducing it at least to balanced, and sometimes even cautious. That's the first thing to take into account.

You should be banned for this kind of post. 

With fm19 fresh off the press, the likelihood is there are new players being pointed to the tactics forums... Or old players looking for some guidance due to the changes... This kind of information is so detrimental. 

Changing mentality affects so many things... Simply shifting up and down based on perceived reputation of the opposition is next level trolling to be honest. 

----------

Im doing the exact opposite in my save to great effect... Playing on attacking mentality in the harder games and balanced in matches i expect to win... But mentality is a small part of it. 

I drop the dline and line of engagement... I increase passing length, switch my AF to a PF... So i defend deeper but when my team wins the ball they have the mentality to get it forward quickly. (self generated counters basically) 

Against lesser teams we play higher up the pitch and keep the ball more... But using lower mentality to avoid too many turnovers

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2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

You should be banned for this kind of post.

Well, I didn't know that personal views are forbidden by the rules of this forum. I used to believe that different opinions are something that should be implicit in any discussion, and even desirable :idiot:

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3 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

You should be banned for this kind of post. 

With fm19 fresh off the press, the likelihood is there are new players being pointed to the tactics forums... Or old players looking for some guidance due to the changes... This kind of information is so detrimental. 

Changing mentality affects so many things... Simply shifting up and down based on perceived reputation of the opposition is next level trolling to be honest. 

----------

Im doing the exact opposite in my save to great effect... Playing on attacking mentality in the harder games and balanced in matches i expect to win... But mentality is a small part of it. 

I drop the dline and line of engagement... I increase passing length, switch my AF to a PF... So i defend deeper but when my team wins the ball they have the mentality to get it forward quickly. (self generated counters basically) 

Against lesser teams we play higher up the pitch and keep the ball more... But using lower mentality to avoid too many turnovers

This reaction is a bit OTT, and I'm very surprised because your posts are usually a lot more constructive and of great quality. Everybody should be allowed to talk tactics, their approaches, and say what works for them.

But the crux what you're saying isn't wrong, in my own game I don't like reducing my mentality in 90% of cases as it's an extreme option and usually solutions can be found in tweaking just the D-Line or Tempo etc., however sometimes I find there is an excuse for taking the extreme option. For example, I like my players all playing on the same mentalities in a very fluid gegen press 4-4-2. If I feel like my mentality is too high against a big team and my players are being somewhat aggressive and losing the ball, I want to reduce the risks across the side by reducing my mentality from Positive to Balanced. I find it's a great way of maintaining the gegen but also telling my players to take a bit more caution across the team. I have the lowest salary in the league 2nd season with QPR and I have picked up some great results against the big boys using this method, including 5-2 away to Chelsea and 3-1 away to City. Ok, I did get smacked around by an unbeaten Arsenal side, but I'd take it for the other results.

 

c1c43d4b96ad421478e7d6d202343344.png

Edited by JDeeguain

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Main thing that stands out to me is De Rossi in a 2 man midfield, his legs have gone, he can't cover space.  I think that will cause a big knock on effect in a high line+pressing system.  

In big games it might be better to take a more pragmatic approach and go to 433 DM Wide, let De Rossi sit in front of the CBs and distribute with 2 CM shielding him and providing the legs to get up and down the pitch.

(Sorry if repeating or if already made changes, just read OP)

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48 minutes ago, JDeeguain said:

This reaction is a bit OTT, 

 

49 minutes ago, JDeeguain said:

But the crux what you're saying isn't wrong

The main trouble, as i said, right now is going to be one of the busier periods on the forum. The information being provided is wrong... But its stated in a manner that exudes not just confidence of opinion... But as if it is factual. 

Considering its virtually in every thread, i absolutely believe that this guy is going to ruin some usere experience... When they take his word as fact and completely fail to understand tactics. 

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I think you can apply different strategies with different mentalities and it's not just a case of being cautious does this and positive does that.  The tactic creator can be adaptable.  Plenty of threads where good sides used a cautious approach to crack open stubborn teams and vice versa.

Bold post there @westy8chimp but I understand where you are coming from.  It's frustrating sometimes to see a just 'do this' or 'do that' without an explanation or just a bunch of roles posted up, and there are a lot of new threads everywhere.  Myself I've only had the game a short while and I'm looking, adapting and just playing right now.  I always tend to see my first save of a new version as one that may be a keeper or its just a (re)learning curve.  Lots to get to grips with on FM19, lets just take our time. :onmehead:

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I think every edition of FM has given me headaches knowing how to play away against the bigger sides. The formation and system I settled on best was a fairly rigid 4-1-4-1 formation on counter mentality, or cautious now - however this is a fairly extreme measure. With the oppo 90% of the time playing with wingers in AM strata, I instructed my wide players to mark their wingers and keep my full backs pinned back, that way we were doubling up on them every time. Any of our breaks were through the middle - a B2B midfielder (with gets forward whenever possible ppm) would link up with a strong striker on DLF duty and we'd be able to create a few one-on-ones.

I always found I conceded goals that originated from wider position so shutting down their wide players was the best option in order to get a result. I faced a lot of 4-2-3-1s, so isolating their forward with a narrow, deeper line was simple enough and exposing the two central midfielders was also possible, with an anchor attempting to stifle their AMC. Didn't work every time of course but grounded out some tight wins and decent draws. As Roma, you can probably be a bit more ballsy than me rather than play what would probably be labelled as a defensive tactic.

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I've subbed, this is one of the big things I struggle with in FM, the defensive side of things

I don't play on anything less than Balanced, I find when I try & shut up shop I end up getting mullered, I think I'm way too defensive in my approach & just invite trouble  

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I have only finished one season so far but I have noticed strength in fm 19 has much more effect than in fm 18.

In the away game it used to be a lot more prone to mistakes in passing. But I built a team with all players on field having 17+ strenth (except keeper) and in away games I struggled a lot less than I use to be. When fighing for 50/50 chances and defending in the box, strength really helped. 

That season is in beta so I have to see for 1 more season for sure.

Edited by moolochicken
Typal

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