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New Laptop/PC- Help Needed

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5 hours ago, Smurf said:

Problem is people don't necessarily know what specs to put onto those sites. 

All good if you know what you're doing and happy doing it. 

I think this thread evolved from the point that people don't know anything about computers, but have a certain budget and want to play FM on a new computer. 

True, but it's pretty simple, even for a novice. It's not like you have to be an IT hero.

I do think it's a good site, probably worthy of being sticky'd.

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1 hour ago, SlayerX said:

True, but it's pretty simple, even for a novice. It's not like you have to be an IT hero.

I do think it's a good site, probably worthy of being sticky'd.

Problem is - it might tell you your computer is up to scratch and good for Football Manager, based on the specs given and matching against certain criteria. 

However, if someone has a 2.2.ghz i3 processor with no turbo boost- no graphics card and 4gb RAM - the online system will tell you it's good for FM. 

And it wouldn't be good enough to run 20 leagues, large database with graphics on full 

 

Below are specs for an i7 computer that I used to have - and it has a 2.0ghz processor - 8gb - 950M etc. 

And I can tell you outright, this rig does not play FM 17 with any degree of quality - especially on 8 leagues (all divisions), large database, and with 3D graphics set to Low.

It's fine for FM12 though and was a great computer 5 years ago.

59b95549e2433_ScreenShot2017-09-13at16_56_08.thumb.png.82a1e0a29fd156f447c1ac224f76552a.png

 

It's also recommending to upgrade the graphics card - but in this particular rig the Graphics card cannot be updated.

 

 

It's a nice site - and gives a ball park idea.

 

 

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I'd echo Smurf's comments, those type of sites are great for linear games or those where the experience is defined by the graphics settings but for FM they are not much use as all you can guarantee is that you can run the game with a single league loaded, they do not take into acccount the end user experience is on what is essentially a cpu limited game.

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2 hours ago, Smurf said:

Problem is - it might tell you your computer is up to scratch and good for Football Manager, based on the specs given and matching against certain criteria. 

However, if someone has a 2.2.ghz i3 processor with no turbo boost- no graphics card and 4gb RAM - the online system will tell you it's good for FM. 

And it wouldn't be good enough to run 20 leagues, large database with graphics on full 

 

Below are specs for an i7 computer that I used to have - and it has a 2.0ghz processor - 8gb - 950M etc. 

And I can tell you outright, this rig does not play FM 17 with any degree of quality - especially on 8 leagues (all divisions), large database, and with 3D graphics set to Low.

It's fine for FM12 though and was a great computer 5 years ago.

59b95549e2433_ScreenShot2017-09-13at16_56_08.thumb.png.82a1e0a29fd156f447c1ac224f76552a.png

 

It's also recommending to upgrade the graphics card - but in this particular rig the Graphics card cannot be updated.

 

 

It's a nice site - and gives a ball park idea.

 

 

Yeahhhh... most of went over my head. I'm not much of a gamer. My previous pc couldn't even handle Minecraft... seriously. My idea of gaming is playing on a SNES/Megadrive emulator.  :sega:

 

Now, if someone asked me how to outline a novel or structure a plot then I'm your man. :)

It's good that you're hear to edumicate people. Seriously.  :)

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Oh. I will only use my new laptop for word processors so I'm not going to spend more than  £400.

I challenge you to find a suitable machine for FM 17/18 with that budget.

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Sorry I don't do challenges. This is bordering trolling. Please desist. 

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1 hour ago, Smurf said:

Sorry I don't do challenges. This is bordering trolling. Please desist. 

Eh? I was completely serious. 

You asked me for a budget, I gave it. If it's not possible to find a machine for that figure, fair enough. I haven't played Football Manager since FM2013.

I don't know which nationality you are, so maybe something got lost in translation: "I challenge you..." Pretty much means that it isn't possible. And you thought that was trolling? THAT offended you?

It wasnt literally a challenge. :seagull:

Christ, maybe you really are a Smurf.

Edited by SlayerX

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6 hours ago, thomas166 said:

How well would this laptop run FM18? Generally play with 6 or 7 leagues loaded

 

8GB RAM

2.93 GHz processor

 

 

https://www.tesco.com/direct/acer-156-e5-523-amd-a9-8gb-ram-1tb-hdd-black-laptop/359-4628.prd?skuId=359-4628

 

TIA

I don't think it would be that great - even though it's spec'd at 2.9ghz processor - it's still an entry level processor. 

You might be ok with 6 or 7 leagues loaded - but you may need to adjust until you're happy with the load.

For that price, you're not likely to get a graphics card dedicated, therefore, you'll struggle on 3D - suggest lowest level (or adjust until happy) else don't play on 3D.

 

 

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On 13/09/2017 at 10:32, Welshace said:

Saveonlaptops and laptopsdirect still the the go to place to go then?

Personally, I wouldn't touch those places with a bargepole. There's something about them that gets my spidey sense tingling. 

https://www.xsonly.com is the best place to buy certified reburbished and new laptops. What that company does it buy refurbished and end-of-the-line/discontinued laptops in bulk from the manufacturer. 

With every Dell model you get 3 years official warranty from Dell. You have the option of same day delivery or next day for every order.

I've used them twice. They're better than Dell outlet.

Edited by SlayerX

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6 hours ago, Smurf said:

I don't think it would be that great - even though it's spec'd at 2.9ghz processor - it's still an entry level processor. 

You might be ok with 6 or 7 leagues loaded - but you may need to adjust until you're happy with the load.

For that price, you're not likely to get a graphics card dedicated, therefore, you'll struggle on 3D - suggest lowest level (or adjust until happy) else don't play on 3D.

 

 

Owwh okay, thanks 

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44 minutes ago, pl-fikander said:

Hi,

is i5-6300HQ good enough to handle FM? Looking for medium length (up to 10 seasons probably) games, with +/- 10 leagues loaded. Found this: https://www.x-kom.pl/p/367382-notebook-laptop-156-lenovo-y700-15-i5-6300hq-8gb-1000-win10-gtx960m-fhd.html - is it good buy?

Looks good!

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Just now, Smurf said:

Looks good!

Thanks! Apart from FM, is this graphic card good enough to handle other games? I'm thinking of Civ 6. I'm OK with going down to medium or low graphical settings, but would like to play it without major stuttering.

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Not too up on other games - bit of research suggests others are playing on Medium graphics.

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1 hour ago, Smurf said:

Not too up on other games - bit of research suggests others are playing on Medium graphics.

Good enough. Thanks once again!

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That's fantastic! Good luck!

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Operating System
    Windows 10 Home 64-bit
CPU
    AMD Phenom II X4 820    55 °C
    Deneb 45nm Technology
RAM
    6.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 533MHz (7-7-7-20)
Motherboard
    Dell Inc. 04GJJT (CPU 1)    59 °C
Graphics
    DELL ST2320L (1920x1080@60Hz)
    1024MB ATI AMD Radeon HD 5450 (Dell)    60 °C
Storage
    931GB TOSHIBA DT01ACA100 SATA Disk Device (SATA)    34 °C
Optical Drives
    HL-DT-ST DVD+-RW GH50N SATA CdRom Device
Audio
    AMD High Definition Audio Device

 

That is my current aging desktop. FM2017 runs a bit to slow for my liking. I don't play with the 3d settings and not too fussed about it. Really i just want the game to speed up. Is there anything i can improve. Or is it for the best to invest in a new desktop.

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Again - my personal opinion - please research screen size, weight of laptop etc. until you're satisfied - please research all elements as posted as it is just my opinion.

Remember to always ask the question before you buy! And Always post your laptop you're going to buy in this thread - as there are some excellent people who can point you in the right direction!

 

0-450

Only one in for this week

Pretty decent but not good for 3D graphics - except on low settings.

Wouldn't recommend loading too many leagues/divisions or having any more than a medium database.

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/X541UA-XX202T-ASUS-X541UA-XX202T_2059132.html

 

450-650

Same as the lads above - who bought recently - says it's great. It does  have a graphics card - pretty decent too.

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/NX.G66EK.004-Acer-Aspire-V15-in-Black_2095447.html

Nothing jumps out for a computer without a graphics card - therefore if you don't play 3D then the one above is best - just don't turn on the 3D if you don't like it.

 

650-800

Better processor than the one above - graphics card is decent

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/ZX553VD-DM969T-ASUS-Gaming-ZX553VD-DM969T_2145527.html

800-1000

This is really good 

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/9S7-16J942-011-MSI-GP62-7RD(Leopard)-011UK_2066572.html

This has a better graphics card

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/GL553VE-DM107T-ASUS-ROG-Strix-GL553VE-DM107T_2119183.html

 

 

That's it for this week - heed the writing in red! Good luck and look forward to any feedback - and of course if you have a different supplier for laptops let me know and I'll happily find one from there for you!

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Hi folks

Not sure if this is the appropriate place for this question but here goes - any ideas on what kind of performance I would likely be able to get out of a base model MacBook Pro 13" in FM terms? I'm assuming it is t going to be great in 3D match terms but am I likely to be able to get a good number of leagues running with a sizeable database?

Thanks

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7 hours ago, sw26 said:

Hi folks

Not sure if this is the appropriate place for this question but here goes - any ideas on what kind of performance I would likely be able to get out of a base model MacBook Pro 13" in FM terms? I'm assuming it is t going to be great in 3D match terms but am I likely to be able to get a good number of leagues running with a sizeable database?

Thanks

Looking at them - the one priced in the middle would be good for £1,449.00 - you can then go up to  £1,749.00

The only difference I see in this is a better processor - which would get you the good number of leauges. 

Sadly - the Mac Book Pro 13 inch does not come with a graphics card. 

 

I'm a fan of Apple, I like their stuff - I'm a graphic designer and I use Macs everyday - however, I do find them extremely overpriced for what's under the hood. 

 

Unless you really need a Mac - then I think you can put that money towards a PC - and really get the performance you need for FM. 

Sadly one of the only ones available on SaveonLaptops is a Surface Pro - which has all you need including the graphics card for the 3d Matches

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/TP4-00002-Microsoft-Surface-Book_2013360.html

And this comes in at 1,775.00

 

However, if you think you need a 13 inch I don't see much else.

 

 

If you go up to a 14 inch -  this is a beast and it's only   £899.97

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/9S7-14A112-090-MSI-GS40-6QE(Phantom)-090UK_1945621.html

 

This is the best value for your mony - 

If you really want to spend money on a computer for FM - and keep the size down - I can find this 14 inch and configure it here

£1,059.00 inc. VAT  https://www.pcspecialist.co.uk/saved-configurations/defianceIII-14/kD2KUN2vdT/

Chassis & Display
Defiance Series: 14" Matte Full HD IPS LED Widescreen (1920x1080)
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™ i7 Quad Core Processor 7700HQ (2.8GHz, 3.8GHz Turbo)!

Memory (RAM)
16GB Corsair 2133MHz SODIMM DDR4 (1 x 16GB)

Graphics Card
NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 1050 Ti - 4.0GB GDDR5 Video RAM - DirectX® 12.1

M.2 SSD Drive
240GB KINGSTON SSDNow M.2 2280 G2, SATA 6Gb/s (550MB/R, 330MB/W)

Thermal Paste
EK-TIM ECTOTHERM THERMAL COMPOUND

 

 

Remember to full research all I've posted - if you have any questions the please let me know and I'll be happy to answer as best I can.

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On 9/14/2017 at 13:17, SlayerX said:

Personally, I wouldn't touch those places with a bargepole. There's something about them that gets my spidey sense tingling. 

https://www.xsonly.com is the best place to buy certified reburbished and new laptops. What that company does it buy refurbished and end-of-the-line/discontinued laptops in bulk from the manufacturer. 

With every Dell model you get 3 years official warranty from Dell. You have the option of same day delivery or next day for every order.

I've used them twice. They're better than Dell outlet.

Appreciate the reply,

 

Meant more in terms of prices though, the websites I mentioned have served me well in the past, with close to 30 laptops and a few desktops brought, but I've been out of hte loop for close to a year so was wondering if any competitors had risen yet.

 

Will certainly check your link out though, never used them before... cheers.

7

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On 9/14/2017 at 13:17, SlayerX said:

Personally, I wouldn't touch those places with a bargepole. There's something about them that gets my spidey sense tingling. 

https://www.xsonly.com is the best place to buy certified reburbished and new laptops. What that company does it buy refurbished and end-of-the-line/discontinued laptops in bulk from the manufacturer. 

With every Dell model you get 3 years official warranty from Dell. You have the option of same day delivery or next day for every order.

I've used them twice. They're better than Dell outlet.

Firstly - I bought a refurbished laptop before and it was pretty good. Typically I can find a NEW laptop similar to the refurbished laptop - that's suitable for football manager.

On that site you posted I did find this https://www.xsonly.com/collections/gaming-laptops/products/asus-rog-gl552vw-dm201t-i7-6700hq-8gb-1tb-256gb-ssd-nvidia-geforce-gtx-960m-2gb-windows-10-64bit

It is refurbished - It's pretty damn good in fairness. 

 

You're welcome to your opinion - but Save On Laptops has served the community well - in all the years doing this - nobody has ever come back to say they got a raw deal. 

And I do this in my spare time - I'm not in the UK - so I don't know what sites are out there for the UK so forgive my ignorance. I like save on laptops because it's easiest to find specs using the filter on the left.  

I just don't want you to put people off a website because your "spidey" senses are tingling - it's not fair to people who are on tight budgets. 

I'll certainly add your recommeded website to the list of sites I search for people. But all the time I end up going back to Save on Laptops. Who are a sister site to https://www.box.co.uk/ 

 

I'm not here to argue which sites are the best to use - I just want to find the best laptops for people to play football manager on. I've been playing football manager for close to 25 years (back when it was championship manager back in 1993). I literally do not care where someone gets their computer from - as long as it's the best laptop within their budget. That's all that matters. 

There's plenty of times someone came with a low budget and I just won't recommend based off that. 

 

Perhaps we can hold off on the pissing contest - and you can also post recommended laptops/computers for people who are searching for a good deal. I would certainly welcome the help and the experience. It is very difficult posting recommendations just myself. 

 

Please do recommend laptops based on the budgets and requirements for FM. I'm sure the community would welcome even more suggestions to get the best deals out there. 

 

Edited by Smurf

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22 hours ago, IvayLo said:

Looks great

Only other on I can find is 20 quid cheaper https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/Products/cat/Laptops/refine/max~1000$46562~144409$46563~67690$46563~144433$46563~67704$46567~186486$46567~171173$46565~144424

 

There is another on for 100  quid cheaper here

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/9S7-179586-1007-MSI-GL72-7QF-1007UK_2067944.html

Difference is in the graphics card - but it's more than enough for FM. 

 

There are others out there - all refurbished

This one has a processor called i7-4720HQ - which was released in 2015, my opinion here is that this laptop is about 2 years old - going by the processor and the 965M which was released in January 2015. 

The major issue with this is that it's Windows 8.1 - which in a few years time may make it difficult to play FM. 

https://www.xsonly.com/collections/laptops/products/refurbished-asus-rog-g751jl-t7010h-i7-4720hq-16gb-1tb-17-3-1920x1080-nvidia-geforce-gtx965m-blu-ray-windows-8-1-64bit-90nb0892-m00340

 

Here's a slightly better one - a lot more up to date in terms of parts and operating system

https://www.xsonly.com/collections/laptops/products/refurbished-asus-rog-gl752vw-t4308t-i7-6700hq-8gb-1tb-128gb-ssd-17-3-1920-1080-nvidia-geforce-gt-960m-windows-10

 

If it was me - I'd stick to the new laptops because the price difference is not big enough for me to say to go with the refurbished - it would be best to spend that bit extra and get a new one. 

 

Up to you - and I'd appreciate opinions from others :)

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18 hours ago, worion said:

Is a Radeon R7 going to be good enough to run graphics in 3D on FM17 and FM18?

It would depend on the model number 

R7 370 is the best model - and at that it's in mid-level laptops

R7 250 - this is an entry level graphics card 

R7 M465 - entry level

There are others out there - but all entry level graphics cards - the R7 370 is the best in the range and would be ok for 3D graphics.

Any other model would have to be played on lower settings. 

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18 hours ago, ged316 said:

Operating System
    Windows 10 Home 64-bit
CPU
    AMD Phenom II X4 820    55 °C
    Deneb 45nm Technology
RAM
    6.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 533MHz (7-7-7-20)
Motherboard
    Dell Inc. 04GJJT (CPU 1)    59 °C
Graphics
    DELL ST2320L (1920x1080@60Hz)
    1024MB ATI AMD Radeon HD 5450 (Dell)    60 °C
Storage
    931GB TOSHIBA DT01ACA100 SATA Disk Device (SATA)    34 °C
Optical Drives
    HL-DT-ST DVD+-RW GH50N SATA CdRom Device
Audio
    AMD High Definition Audio Device

 

That is my current aging desktop. FM2017 runs a bit to slow for my liking. I don't play with the 3d settings and not too fussed about it. Really i just want the game to speed up. Is there anything i can improve. Or is it for the best to invest in a new desktop.

The only thing possible to make the game faster is to get a better processor. 

Can you post a DXDiag or send in a PM and I'll see if it's upgradeable - how much and best to buy. 

If you have a budget - please let me know what it is. 

And if you want a new desktop what would be your best budget?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=dxdiag&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOhODR66vWAhVkOMAKHVm8A9oQBQgiKAA&biw=1600&bih=780

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3 hours ago, Smurf said:

It would depend on the model number 

R7 370 is the best model - and at that it's in mid-level laptops

R7 250 - this is an entry level graphics card 

R7 M465 - entry level

There are others out there - but all entry level graphics cards - the R7 370 is the best in the range and would be ok for 3D graphics.

Any other model would have to be played on lower settings. 

Thanks, I have had a hard time deciphering the different models. I found this. Is this in the entry range of the model?

The FX9830P AMD Radeon R7 (Bristol Ridge) is an integrated graphics card with 512 GCN shader units and a core clock of 900 MHz . Best performance with dual-channel DDR4 meaning two slot of Identical memory installed. The Radeon R7 consists of eight cores supports DirectX 12 and its shaders can be used with Mantle, OpenGL and OpenCL. Includes UVD 6 (Unified Video Decoder), which can decode HVEC / H.265 up to 4K in hardware.

Edited by worion
More info

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8 hours ago, mootama said:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/computing/laptops/laptops/dell-inspiron-15-5000-15-6-laptop-fog-grey-10152551-pdt.html

 

Hi guys is this laptop any good to play fm 17 on with 3d graphics on large database 

 

Regards Brian 

It's ok...

 

The processor while being the newest generation, is low powered, it will run a large database, but whether it's fast or not really depends on what you are used to.

 

It doesn't have a dedicated graphics card so you'll be relying on the onboard chip with the cpu, which will run 3d but I doubt you'll get decent performance above medium/low level...

A quick two minute look brings up this as an example of a better choice in almost all areas for the same price:

 

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/NX.G66EK.004-Acer-Aspire-V15-in-Black_2095447.html

It is also slightly overpriced in todays market.

 

 

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Hi, I want to get a laptop for fm2018 I saw Lenovo 710s with specs Intel Hd graphics 620, i5-7200u, 256gb ssd and 8gb ram. Will this run fm18 in 3D with 8leagues

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3 minutes ago, cybergamer47 said:

Hi, I want to get a laptop for fm2018 I saw Lenovo 710s with specs Intel Hd graphics 620, i5-7200u, 256gb ssd and 8gb ram. Will this run fm18 in 3D with 8leagues

9 out of 10 posts in here include that very cpu... would suggest just looking at the answers to any one of those... as cpu is king for fm..

 

In terms of 3d, you haven't told us whether it has a graphics card or not, but even the onboard chip will run the 3d on at least low.

 

Ram is also fine, 8 is basically the minimum i'd look at these days.

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What price is that laptop and where are you buying it. There maybe a better laptop for in and around the same price.

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Hi,

So im looking at selling my gaming pc. Its excellent and perfect for FM18 but......its a desktop as i said, i want the space and ease that a laptop gives. 

Now im not looking for a specific laptop as ill be buying used but i would like to know a few things in regards to processors.

I currently have an excellent i5 6600k in the desktop. With 16gb of ram this is great. But i dont want to spend all my money from the desktop sale on a laptop so in regards to age/generation of processors, how old is ok? I couldnt care less about 3d options, i want speed and power as i like as much detail as possible combined with decent speed of game.

Im guessing concentrate on i5 and i7, dont want to go for U series etc but how far back could i go? 3rd gen? Again, its all about speed and power, i can add extra ram if needed but should be fine with 8gb. This laptop will be used or refurbished to help with price as wont want to spend more than £350

Thanks!

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Keep your desktop until you have saved a lot more - to be honest. 

 

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But Surely this will be fine for running Football Manager?.......    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GREAT-CONDITION-DELL-LATITUDE-E5440-CORE-i5-8GB-RAM-500GB-SSHD-WIN-10-/253119797498?hash=item3aef1d98fa:g:ffcAAOSwHPlWgGcu

Dont get me wrong, i know the desktop is far better but to be honest i dont play FM a huge load these days and ill have an xbox one for the son for his gaming. So the laptop will offer portability for me, with the odd game on fm. Other than that its used for internet, spotify and some video editing stuff. Would the processor above not be able to run 10/12 leagues and a large database ok do you think?

Point is i dont want to spend a fortune or save up for some beast of a laptop as it wont be worth it for what i use it for, so something that can play FM comfortably is good for me, within that price range :D

 

Edited by flogside

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2 minutes ago, flogside said:

But Surely this will be fine for running Football Manager?.......    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GREAT-CONDITION-DELL-LATITUDE-E5440-CORE-i5-8GB-RAM-500GB-SSHD-WIN-10-/253119797498?hash=item3aef1d98fa:g:ffcAAOSwHPlWgGcu

Dont get me wrong, i know the desktop is far better but to be honest i dont play FM a huge load these days and ill have an xbox one for the son for his gaming. So the laptop will offer portability for me, with the odd game on fm. Other than that its used for internet, spotify and some video editing stuff. Would the processor above not be able to run 10/12 leagues and a large database ok do you think?

No 

59bfbf1fe35c4_ScreenShot2017-09-18at13_41_53.png.2da2c69543acf0a004128259676af2e2.png

It's a 2.0ghz processor - it doesn't state the model at all so not sure. 

And FM requires minimum 2.2ghz processor or more. 

If you want a lot of detail you won't get it that. 

 

Plus - I don't buy from eBay and have no notion of offering a recommendation from there. 

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Smurf you are a legend, but also I hate you

From reading your advice you gave to others I realised how bad my laptop was and have just spent near £900 on a new one!

Seriously though you must put a lot of time into helping people and on behalf of myself and the whole forum, thank you

 

 

Edited by Joef599

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That's actually pretty sweet - had a quick look around and nothing better in that price range for a 17 inch. Probably would have recommended that one or something similar for your budget :)

 

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9 minutes ago, Jordwcfc93 said:

 

Similar processor was bought by this chap and he's not having a good time with it

 

 

I wouldn't be comfortable recommending one in the 500  range for what you need

However, I do make a list every week of the best on show that I can find

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/X541UA-XX202T-ASUS-X541UA-XX202T_2059132.html

 

However - I do think going the extra 100 quid more would be of great benefit.

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/NX.G66EK.004-Acer-Aspire-V15-in-Black_2095447.html

 

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10 hours ago, Luke Ltfc 1994 said:

There's nothing terribly wrong with the one you've found - it's pretty good. 

It has a small hard drive - which may become cumbersome to manage over time.

It has no graphics card- which means it would struggle to play 3d on anything more than low settings.

 

This one is pretty good and slightly better

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/1WY59EAABU-HP-250-G6_2157930.html

 

Or this one is better again

https://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/NX.G66EK.004-Acer-Aspire-V15-in-Black_2095447.html

 

Was it something in the 14 inch range you're looking for?

 

 

 

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Looks good on paper. However, it's a very very old processor - all the way back to 2010 - and intel's support for this has ended- therefore any issues most likely won't be supported. 

Windows 7 was released in 2009 - and mainstream support ended in 2015- however it's still releasing patches up to 2020.

There's no guarantee that Windows 10 works on this at all. 

 

Based on the above - I would not recommend this laptop at all. 

 

What's your budget? 

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