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Is this a fact or will the player become accomplished eventually?

I cant believe theyve added something like this to the game especially when you cant train an AML to a ML the position  is so similar.

Also what determines whether or not a player can be retrained to accomplished?

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I'd not be too discouraged on 'competent' at a position. It can be good enough all the way to winning the conference to the champions league.

Think less on min/max, more on what works for your team. You might find a few surprises. The whole scout rating/ass man rating/PA/CA can be as much a hindrance as a help.

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hace 47 minutos, jere_d dijo:

Is this a fact or will the player become accomplished eventually?

I cant believe theyve added something like this to the game especially when you cant train an AML to a ML the position  is so similar.

Also what determines whether or not a player can be retrained to accomplished?

don't bother too much about that, i have a LB that can play at defensive mid as yellow dot nad he can perform there due to good spread in stat for that position.

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6 hours ago, jere_d said:

Is this a fact or will the player become accomplished eventually?

I cant believe theyve added something like this to the game especially when you cant train an AML to a ML the position  is so similar.

Also what determines whether or not a player can be retrained to accomplished?

Nothing has been "added to the game", this is feedback introduced based on functionality that existed previously but you had no way of knowing about it. Now the assistant will inform you when he believes a player has got to the point where he will no longer continue to improve his ability in a certain position. As mentioned above though, 'competent' is often good enough, especially if he has the attributes for the role.

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5 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Nothing has been "added to the game", this is feedback introduced based on functionality that existed previously but you had no way of knowing about it. Now the assistant will inform you when he believes a player has got to the point where he will no longer continue to improve his ability in a certain position. As mentioned above though, 'competent' is often good enough, especially if he has the attributes for the role.

Once that level has been reached does it make sense to move him back to his natural position in training?

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5 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

... Now the assistant will inform you when he believes a player has got to the point where he will no longer continue to improve his ability in a certain position ...

Is the assistant necessarily correct or is it just his opinion and the player  may possibly improve in that position? 

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12 hours ago, jere_d said:

Is this a fact or will the player become accomplished eventually?

I cant believe theyve added something like this to the game especially when you cant train an AML to a ML the position  is so similar.

Also what determines whether or not a player can be retrained to accomplished?

Got to agree with this an AML should be able to retrain to ML after a period of time as the positions are so similar and vide versa 

Edited by private pyle
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3 hours ago, pauly15 said:

Once that level has been reached does it make sense to move him back to his natural position in training?

That would depend on what you want to do with him. A position can also decrease if not trained/played in, but that does take a while. Additionally you may want him to be focusing on a role, and thus attributes, that is tied to that position. You're free to keep him training there as long as you wish.

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8 hours ago, Miravlix said:

Are we arguing over added vs changed?

FM18 fairly free position system has been massively curtailed in FM19. That is addition's in so many ways that I run out of additives to describe it.

It hasn't been changed either.

The feedback is now giving you a definite answer to something that you could only guess at previously. Perhaps because you are now aware of the upper limit it seems as though it occurs more often, but that isn't he case.

If you feel a player should be progressing further than he is in a position please do get it logged on the bugs forum and we'll investigate.

 

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23 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It hasn't been changed either.

The feedback is now giving you a definite answer to something that you could only guess at previously. Perhaps because you are now aware of the upper limit it seems as though it occurs more often, but that isn't he case.

If you feel a player should be progressing further than he is in a position please do get it logged on the bugs forum and we'll investigate.

 

I have raised this issue also in the Bugs forum. For me it is clear that at the moment it is very unrealistic. I have several very young players not being able to learn a (very similar) new position (like AMC=>MC, AMR=>MR and WBR=>DR) despite several years of playing and training in the new position. 

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Can players who are ineffectual in a position be retrained if young enough? I'm currently looking at training Max Broughton at CAM as his positioning and jumping at so bad for a centre back.  

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2 minutes ago, Rags89 said:

Can players who are ineffectual in a position be retrained if young enough? I'm currently looking at training Max Broughton at CAM as his positioning and jumping at so bad for a centre back.  

Age is a factor and so is Versatility. There may be other factors too, I'm not sure.

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6 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Age is a factor and so is Versatility. There may be other factors too, I'm not sure.

 

Cheers, so far after about half a season he's ineffective- which means the role appears on his positional graph, that's something I suppose. I must confess the guy is so well rounded I didn't notice the 4 score for positioning, anyway pretty interesting experiment to see how he gets on.   

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17 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

We have this under review in the bugs forum. Cheers.

That is good to know, I really think it should be easier to retrain positions like AML-ML, MC-DCM since the positions are similar.

Not saying they should be able to retrain it in a few weeks but max a couple of seasons playing in that position and it should turn natural, especially for younger players.

I do think the assistant stating the player won’t advance past a certain spot a really good idea though and could be used if you try to train a full back as a striker which should be far more difficult :)

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1 hour ago, Baodan said:

Remember that positional versatility takes a chunk out of the players PA.

this is new. never did before, and you can check in the editor

is the editor released already for fm19? if not, then i think you are wrong here and you will have no way to check right now

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35 minutes ago, lemeuresnew said:

this is new. never did before, and you can check in the editor

This is not new. It doesn't change PA, but attributes are weighted differently for different positions. So to simplify massively: different/more positions means different/heavier weighting. Thus the number of positions a player can play will affect how his attributes translate into CA.

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25 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

This is not new. It doesn't change PA, but attributes are weighted differently for different positions. So to simplify massively: different/more positions means different/heavier weighting. Thus the number of positions a player can play will affect how his attributes translate into CA.

positional versatility is an attribute in the editor, that doesn't effect CA right? so in terms of what effects a players ability to train a new position, as the OP asks, that is what effects it surely?

i was always led to believe training a new position eventually rebalances attributes to the ones being trained, over a few seasons?

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1 minute ago, lemeuresnew said:

positional versatility is an attribute in the editor, that doesn't effect CA right? so in terms of what effects a players ability to train a new position, as the OP asks, that is what effects it surely?

i was always led to believe training a new position eventually rebalances attributes to the ones being trained, over a few seasons?

Versatility itself does not impact CA. Versatility helps to govern how many/how good a player can become in new positions. The changes in attributes that result from this can of course then take up different amounts of CA vs. not retraining.

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7 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Versatility itself does not impact CA. Versatility helps to govern how many/how good a player can become in new positions. The changes in attributes that result from this can of course then take up different amounts of CA vs. not retraining.

Is it safe to say, however, that this CA cost only goes up when a player learns a new position(presumably, by using the highest cost out of the two weighing rather than averaging them)?

It's common to see .2 drops when learning a new position but never an increase - This would still allow re-training positions that make sense, where the weighing are the similar, while punishing silly practices such as training your strikers to CBs(which I know some people did in previous versions).

I know your stance about playing by the numbers so I'm not asking for the recipe to the secret sauce, but one thing about playing intuitively is that requires trust in the developers that they have considered the nuances and I'm not just seeing ghosts.

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2 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:
3 hours ago, Baodan said:

Remember that positional versatility takes a chunk out of the players PA.

this is new. never did before, and you can check in the editor

is the editor released already for fm19? if not, then i think you are wrong here and you will have no way to check right now

Just to clarify - Each new position you train a player in takes away PA points that could otherwise have been spent on improving the player.

Basically if you teach him more positions he will never reach his theoretical max potential.

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38 minutes ago, Baodan said:

Just to clarify - Each new position you train a player in takes away PA points that could otherwise have been spent on improving the player.

Basically if you teach him more positions he will never reach his theoretical max potential.

It doesn't take away PA points, new position just 'costs' CA points, a new position means his CA will be higher, which is completely normal, because a player who can play in an extra position is just a better player... hence a higher CA.
It does however mean that there will be less difference between CA & PA, so less points to improve other attributes

Edited by DavyDepuydt1
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10 hours ago, Baodan said:

Just to clarify - Each new position you train a player in takes away PA points that could otherwise have been spent on improving the player.

Basically if you teach him more positions he will never reach his theoretical max potential.

That's wholly untrue.

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7 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

That's wholly untrue.

Enlighten me please, Seb. I only know what I get told on this forum, since the game has quite a few vague areas.

A player uses his CA points to learn a new position. The same points he uses to improve his other abilities up to his PA.

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22 minutes ago, Baodan said:

Enlighten me please, Seb. I only know what I get told on this forum, since the game has quite a few vague areas.

A player uses his CA points to learn a new position. The same points he uses to improve his other abilities up to his PA.

Yes, but you say "it takes away PA Points"... it doesn't take away PA points, his PA is fixed and will stay the same.
He will just have a higher CA (in short you might say higher CA = better player, which is completely correct since he has an extra position he can play in).

It's the difference between CA & PA that is the untouched potential of a player. So learning a new position will cause a higher CA, so less untouched potential to use on other attributes.
It's exactly the same if you train his finishing, his CA will increase, less points available to train his speed for example... 

Edited by DavyDepuydt1
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I am curious that the assistant suggests you should stop training them in that new position once they're as good as they'll ever be in it. Will they not then lose familiarity with the role if you stop training them or can a player's ability in a new position not be lost once it's gained?

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3 minutes ago, rcirani7 said:

I am curious that the assistant suggests you should stop training them in that new position once they're as good as they'll ever be in it. Will they not then lose familiarity with the role if you stop training them or can a player's ability in a new position not be lost once it's gained?

It can, but it takes a long time, the suggestion from the assistant manager is more to let you know that he has reached his maximum.
Anyway, if you don't train him and that position, but still play him in that position, he won't lose ability anyway

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30 minutes ago, DavyDepuydt1 said:

Yes, but you say "it takes away PA Points"... it doesn't take away PA points, his PA is fixed and will stay the same.
He will just have a higher CA (in short you might say higher CA = better player, which is completely correct since he has an extra position he can play in).

Ah right I said PA instead of CA, but was right a part from that. Wasting CA on learning a new position does not = better player, that depends entirely on your needs.

 

Edited by Baodan
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1 minute ago, Baodan said:

Ah right I said PA instead of CA, but was right a part from that. Wasting CA on learning a new position however does not = better player, that depends entirely on your needs.

 

I'm just objectively looking at the fact that extra positions justifies higher CA. (it might not be what you need, but he's a better player overall then one with exactly the same stats who can play in 1 position less)

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17 minutes ago, DavyDepuydt1 said:

I'm just objectively looking at the fact that extra positions justifies higher CA. (it might not be what you need, but he's a better player overall then one with exactly the same stats who can play in 1 position less)

The fact that learning a new positions costs CA is fair enough, although I don't agree with it.

If you have two players with the exact same start CA set up in the exact same stats with the exact same PA. And you then train Player1 to learn one or two extra positions but keep Player2 on his one initial position. Then Player2 will be the better player in that position.  

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1 hour ago, Baodan said:

Enlighten me please, Seb. I only know what I get told on this forum, since the game has quite a few vague areas.

A player uses his CA points to learn a new position. The same points he uses to improve his other abilities up to his PA.

Excuse my blunt reply - want to jump on any misinformation before it spreads :)

It does not technically use CA either. When a player learns a new position his attributes are weighted differently, sometimes this will require a small shift in attributes and/or a CA recalculation. A player that can play more positions well may require more CA simply because of the number/weighting of attributes involved, but CA is not directly eaten up by position. 

This is one of the (several) reasons we have the upper limit on how good a player can become in a position, to prevent massive attribute readjustments that the manager had not intended nor desired.

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10 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Excuse my blunt reply - want to jump on any misinformation before it spreads :)

It does not technically use CA either. When a player learns a new position his attributes are weighted differently, sometimes this will require a small shift in attributes and/or a CA recalculation. A player that can play more positions well may require more CA simply because of the number/weighting of attributes involved, but CA is not directly eaten up by position. 

This is one of the (several) reasons we have the upper limit on how good a player can become in a position, to prevent massive attribute readjustments that the manager had not intended nor desired.

Thank you very much for that clarification Seb, I might just start valuing versatility in players again.

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21 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Player one will become more versatile and versatility is something important in modern football.

Maybe if you're managing a small club where you need players to cover multiple positions. But in the bigger clubs you want the best possible player for a specific position and you have the funds to buy a strong backup.

Edited by Baodan
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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Baodan:

Maybe if you're managing a small club where you need players to cover multiple positions. But in the bigger clubs you want the best possible player for a specific position and you have the funds to buy a strong backup.

Not in general. Managers like Lucien Favre prefer versatile players.

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5 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Not in general. Managers like Lucien Favre prefer versatile players.

In real life I would do the same, but in the game that makes them less able to specialize and I value that more than versatility.

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37 minutes ago, Baodan said:

In real life I would do the same, but in the game that makes them less able to specialize and I value that more than versatility.

The more similar the new position is to his current ones, the less severe the attribute drop you will see. For instance, I never noticed any drop when training an AMR to AML, I presume because they are symmetrical positions with the same weighings.

Be extra careful when retraining players with atypical distributions for their already existing position, especially when that position is too dissimilar to the one you want to retrain.(i.e. a CB with ST attributes)

I tried to fish earlier this thread for a confirmation from Seb, but even without one, from my own observations I'm pretty certain the CA cost only goes up when adding a new position to prevent exploits.

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2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Excuse my blunt reply - want to jump on any misinformation before it spreads :)

It does not technically use CA either. When a player learns a new position his attributes are weighted differently, sometimes this will require a small shift in attributes and/or a CA recalculation. A player that can play more positions well may require more CA simply because of the number/weighting of attributes involved, but CA is not directly eaten up by position. 

This is one of the (several) reasons we have the upper limit on how good a player can become in a position, to prevent massive attribute readjustments that the manager had not intended nor desired.

If a player is not improving (say a 30 year old) and we train them for a new role, will their attributes go down as well as shift?

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9 minutes ago, pauly15 said:

If a player is not improving (say a 30 year old) and we train them for a new role, will their attributes go down as well as shift?

A change in weightings doesn't necessarily mean attributes will go down, or even change at all. In most cases attributes should remain unaffected in the short term by position learning. It's a gradual process, as someone learns a position they may improve the attributes required as they grow into it, rather than there suddenly being some massive recalculation. We do a lot of this work before hand when defining if/how far a player can improve in a new position to avoid such shifts.

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3 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Excuse my blunt reply - want to jump on any misinformation before it spreads :)

It does not technically use CA either. When a player learns a new position his attributes are weighted differently, sometimes this will require a small shift in attributes and/or a CA recalculation. A player that can play more positions well may require more CA simply because of the number/weighting of attributes involved, but CA is not directly eaten up by position. 

This is one of the (several) reasons we have the upper limit on how good a player can become in a position, to prevent massive attribute readjustments that the manager had not intended nor desired.

 

13 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

A change in weightings doesn't necessarily mean attributes will go down, or even change at all. In most cases attributes should remain unaffected in the short term by position learning. It's a gradual process, as someone learns a position they may improve the attributes required as they grow into it, rather than there suddenly being some massive recalculation. We do a lot of this work before hand when defining if/how far a player can improve in a new position to avoid such shifts.

I think these 2 posts need highlighting.  It's a common theme that more positions = more CA and thus some people don't want to develop a player's position for fear of "using up" CA.

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