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angelo994

Tactical Help - 4 -3 - 3 Tiki Taka - Horrendous front 3.

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Currently in my second season with Real Betis. Finished first season 2nd in the league with a 4-3-3- tiki taka style formation. But now my front line is seriously struggling and I have no idea why.

My strikers have scored 3 goals between them in the league, and its now december. My IF left (Denis) has been atrocious out wide.

Here  are some screen shots of my setup and instructions. Someone help. Please.

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I've been playing 4231 and i've been getting the same feeling, massive possession every match 60-70% but can't score more than 1 or 2 goals no matter how many shots on target i get or whoever i'm against.

IF's AMC's seem to refuse to do through balls and strikers seem to refuse to do off ball movements, game feels like ping pong, way too many shots are either woodwork or hits someone as if there were brick walls in front of them, i'd be okay if they failed the target, which they do often, but hitting defenders this often seems ridiculous, it all feels like a very artificial way of balancing attacks

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I'll take a stab 

You look far too aggressive & are going to be clogging up the opponents penalty area. A high line with a front 3, a BBM & an attacking playmaker in the centre of midfield are all going to be looking at getting into the box & bringing defenders with them, plus there's two attack minded wing backs. High tempo is going to have your team trying to get the ball in the net as fast as possible so they're going to snatch at chances 

Plus if you're doing well & going into games as the favourite, the opposition are going to be defensive minded & have 10 players behind the ball.  It's going to get pretty clogged up up there

I'll suggest pulling back your high block a little & swap the BBM for something like a CMS & have the AP on Support to try & draw the other team out 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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I'd first like to know why (i.e. for which particular reasons) have you opted for the following settings:

- very wide attacking width (why not normal?)

- slightly lower tempo (why not normal?)

- take short kicks and distribute to FBs for GK at the same time, plus "slow pace down"?

- hold shape instead of counter?

- and generally very aggressive instructions when out of possession (highest possible d-line, most urgent pressing and line of engagement)? (why not normal, given that you already play with a high mentality?)

 

Now, when it comes to role and duty distribution, I would consider something like this (bolded are the changes compared to your setup):

F9

APMs                                IFa

CMa    DLPs

HB

FBa    CD    CD     WBs

SWKs

This should give you better control of the midfield and more balanced build-up.

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12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I'd first like to know why (i.e. for which particular reasons) have you opted for the following settings:

- very wide attacking width (why not normal?)

- slightly lower tempo (why not normal?)

- take short kicks and distribute to FBs for GK at the same time, plus "slow pace down"?

- hold shape instead of counter?

- and generally very aggressive instructions when out of possession (highest possible d-line, most urgent pressing and line of engagement)? (why not normal, given that you already play with a high mentality?)

 

Now, when it comes to role and duty distribution, I would consider something like this (bolded are the changes compared to your setup):

F9

APMs                                IFa

CMa    DLPs

HB

FBa    CD    CD     WBs

SWKs

This should give you better control of the midfield and more balanced build-up.

Thanks for the response. 

 

- I had actually played about with the width. Normally we'd play Fairly Wide ( in FM19 the options seem to be either fairly wide or fairly narrow) but I switched it up in an attempt to fix the problem. I'll put it back to fairly wide? 

- same thing with the tempo, either slightly lower or slightly higher tempo. 

- as for the GK, just personal preference, but i hate giving up the ball from gks and much rather we slow it down and distribute to my fullbacks. 

- hold shape, this was part of the tiki taka preset settings. I'll have a go with counter. 

- I'll adjust our line of engagement to standard.

My setup will look like this. Any other thoughts? As far as the LB , is it not better to play a wing back to provide width as Denis will be playing as an AP? 

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'll take a stab 

You look far too aggressive & are going to be clogging up the opponents penalty area. A high line with a front 3, a BBM & an attacking playmaker in the centre of midfield are all going to be looking at getting into the box & bringing defenders with them, plus there's two attack minded wing backs. High tempo is going to have your team trying to get the ball in the net as fast as possible so they're going to snatch at chances 

Plus if you're doing well & going into games as the favourite, the opposition are going to be defensive minded & have 10 players behind the ball.  It's going to get pretty clogged up up there

I'll suggest pulling back your high block a little & swap the BBM for something like a CMS & have the AP on Support to try & draw the other team out 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

I made some changes, what do you think of this setup? I'm personally not a fan of the HB, but I'm willing to give a go to see if it works. 

 

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52 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

Dumb question from me here - why ask for opinions on a setup before actually seeing if it works? For years there have been threads in here where people spend endless hours pondering about systems before actually putting things into practise.

In my experience, the best thing to do is just run with a system and watch it in detail. Where something doesn't work as you expect (maybe a player not supporting where you'd hope they would, or leaving a gap where you'd hope they wouldn't) then change a single thing and watch to see the impact. When it works, move onto the next thing. Rinse and repeat until you're happy. That sort of methodical approach will see you end up with a system that functions as you want, but obviously doesn't result in a bulletproof results machine.

The most important thing in the game has always been that you need to know how you want to play. And to do that, you need to know what you want each player to bring to the table when you have the ball and when you don't. If you can't describe those things, then you don't know how you want to play.

Okay, well thanks for that but you're comment doesn't really offer much. Why the passive aggression? I understand the sentiment, but I'm just here to learn and get better at the game. 

 

I want to play possession based attacking football. My front 3 are struggling , so I posted here. I asked for feedback, and made adjustments.

 

I've played 2 games with the adjusted setup . We won both, first match against Sociedad I had Munir as a F9. He didn't get into the game at all. Quintero got 2 goals from the right wing which was good though. Second match, I played Sarabia as a CF and he banged 2 goals, so I was happier with that. 

However, Denis still hadn't set the world on fire. Average at best. Any other thoughts on my left flank? Or just more patience. 

 

 

Edited by angelo994

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6 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Okay, well thanks for that but you're comment doesn't really offer much. Why the passive aggression? I understand the sentiment, but I'm just here to learn and get better at the game.

It isn't passive aggression, it's asking you to ask questions of yourself and your intended system.

How should your front three operate in your system? Are there clear responsibilities for each? Do you have a guy running to create space? A guy playing the final pass? An out-and-out scorer?

You can't really assess the changes you make based on goals in a single game, it needs to be more thematic. If a dude scores twice in a different role to one you had him in before, that still doesn't mean he's doing what you want. Was Quintero intended to be a goalscorer or a goal supplier, or a runner, or what?

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7 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

It isn't passive aggression, it's asking you to ask questions of yourself and your intended system.

How should your front three operate in your system? Are there clear responsibilities for each? Do you have a guy running to create space? A guy playing the final pass? An out-and-out scorer?

You can't really assess the changes you make based on goals in a single game, it needs to be more thematic. If a dude scores twice in a different role to one you had him in before, that still doesn't mean he's doing what you want. Was Quintero intended to be a goalscorer or a goal supplier, or a runner, or what?

I'd ideally like Denis to supply the goal, with Sarabia to be our main goal scorer. Quintero I'm not sure. I would like him to be an attacking outlet on the right, to supply goals but also contribute when he can I suppose.  He has good dribbling, so i want him to take on more fullbacks if he can. 

I guess, I want the 2 wingers / IF to cut inside and allow the wingbacks to provide space? Is this a good idea? 

My strikers are definitely getting more involved and are actually scoring more. So maybe I'll tweak some more to see if I can get the best out of Denis. 

Edited by angelo994

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3 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

I guess, I want the 2 wingers / IF to cut inside and allow the wingbacks to provide space? Is this a good idea. 

Personally I'd prefer more variation on either flank.

Rather than having the same sort of attacking patterns on both sides, I'd possibly have an IF / Raumdeuter type role on one side with a supporting / overlapping wingback, and then proper width on the other side from midfield with a less aggressive full back. When you do that though, you end up looking (rightly) downfield to see what MC combination best fits the movement of the wide defenders behind and the wide attackers in front.

Again, I know that I'm deliberately not spelling things out - it's all about the front to back combinations you need to support the overall system.

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1 hour ago, angelo994 said:

I made some changes, what do you think of this setup? I'm personally not a fan of the HB, but I'm willing to give a go to see if it works. 

 

The roles look fine to me your ultra high block concerns me though (the higher Def Line & LOE plus the aggressive closing down) just looks to me like you're going to push the opponent back into that final third & congest the area which leaves very little space for your striker. Are you finding that to be the case

If you don't want the HB just try & a defensive midfielder instead. 

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2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

The roles look fine to me your ultra high block concerns me though (the higher Def Line & LOE plus the aggressive closing down) just looks to me like you're going to push the opponent back into that final third & congest the area which leaves very little space for your striker. Are you finding that to be the case

If you don't want the HB just try & a defensive midfielder instead. 

This is super helpful feedback. Thank you so much.  So from the sounds of it, a lot of my issues came from the def line / line of engagement not giving my players space or options? I think I understand better now. 

 

Here is the adjusted setup. 

 

Do you think I should go for a standard line of engagement? I'd like to keep the front 3 higher up, and allow Sanabria to press opposition defensive life.

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Yep yep, give it a whirl & watch the games in as much detail as you have time for & see if you're happier with what you see.

Hopefully you'll see some deeper build up play & some space for your striker 

Let us know if it works out 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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2 hours ago, angelo994 said:

in FM19 the options seem to be either fairly wide or fairly narrow

 

2 hours ago, angelo994 said:

same thing with the tempo, either slightly lower or slightly higher tempo.

Wait a minute, in FM19 you don't have an option of normal width and normal tempo? Are you sure? What is the default setting then?

 

2 hours ago, angelo994 said:

As far as the LB , is it not better to play a wing back to provide width as Denis will be playing as an AP?

If you play him as WB on attack duty, your left flank will be too vulnerable as your CM on that side is also on attack in this setup. FB on attack can still provide width, but is not so much attack-minded as WB. I would even set the left CB on cover duty to provide a bit more caution out there. And by the way, that's the primary reason I suggested precisely the HB role in DM position.

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2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Wait a minute, in FM19 you don't have an option of normal width and normal tempo? Are you sure? What is the default setting then?

Sorry, this is incorrect. It has to do with your mentality. My mentality was on Positive, so the options were either or. Adjusting your mentality will change your options in width and tempo it seems. 

 

Quote

If you play him as WB on attack duty, your left flank will be too vulnerable as your CM on that side is also on attack in this setup. FB on attack can still provide width, but is not so much attack-minded as WB. I would even set the left CB on cover duty to provide a bit more caution out there. And by the way, that's the primary reason I suggested precisely the HB role in DM position.

Ah okay, I see. I understand what you're saying. I've actually been used the HB and Carvalho has been performing pretty well. I'll adjust the left CB to cover. 

 

But to be honest, defensively we have been very, very good. (we are 3rd in La Liga atm). It's in creating chances for my front three that has me so concerned. 

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8 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Sorry, this is incorrect. It has to do with your mentality. My mentality was on Positive, so the options were either or. Adjusting your mentality will change your options in width and tempo it seems. 

Okay, it definitely makes more sense :)

 

9 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Ah okay, I see. I understand what you're saying. I've actually been used the HB and Carvalho has been performing pretty well. I'll adjust the left CB to cover. 

 

But to be honest, defensively we have been very, very good. (we are 3rd in La Liga atm). It's in creating chances for my front three that has me so concerned. 

Even better then. But no matter how big issues you may have in attack, you should never stop paying attention to your defence and leave it vulnerable. Especially given that you play attacking football, so other teams will naturally look to hit you on counter whenever they can.

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2 hours ago, RTHerringbone said:

Dumb question from me here - why ask for opinions on a setup before actually seeing if it works? For years there have been threads in here where people spend endless hours pondering about systems before actually putting things into practise.

In my experience, the best thing to do is just run with a system and watch it in detail. Where something doesn't work as you expect (maybe a player not supporting where you'd hope they would, or leaving a gap where you'd hope they wouldn't) then change a single thing and watch to see the impact. When it works, move onto the next thing. Rinse and repeat until you're happy. That sort of methodical approach will see you end up with a system that functions as you want, but obviously doesn't result in a bulletproof results machine.

The most important thing in the game has always been that you need to know how you want to play. And to do that, you need to know what you want each player to bring to the table when you have the ball and when you don't. If you can't describe those things, then you don't know how you want to play.

Because most users are younger or newer FMers who probably want instant winning formula ready-made from the get-go. Or they are used to having that special magic downloaded tactic in the past editions that wins every game without much effort or adjustments.

Not many people want to arrive at the solution through methodical process. 

Just my guess.....

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57 minutes ago, yonko said:

Because most users are younger or newer FMers who probably want instant winning formula ready-made from the get-go. Or they are used to having that special magic downloaded tactic in the past editions that wins every game without much effort or adjustments.

Not many people want to arrive at the solution through methodical process. 

Just my guess.....

Hmm kind of harsh. I just want to understand where I was going wrong. I apologise I can't read the game as well as you guys. I don't see the harm in wanting to learn and improve though. 

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3 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

Hmm kind of harsh. I just want to understand where I was going wrong. I apologise I can't read the game as well as you guys. I don't see the harm in wanting to learn and improve though. 

you wont learn by being offered answers. that is the point here. 

 

you have to learn to think logically about the game. by the sounds of it you still do not know how you want to play. have been offered tactical changes and taken them without understanding what it is that is changing, and will be complaining that you got fmd or the game is fixed when it stops working again. 

 

we were all that guy at one point. when the penny drops you will understand why rtherringbone is asking what he is asking.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, callamity said:

you wont learn by being offered answers. that is the point here. 

 

you have to learn to think logically about the game. by the sounds of it you still do not know how you want to play. have been offered tactical changes and taken them without understanding what it is that is changing, and will be complaining that you got fmd or the game is fixed when it stops working again. 

 

we were all that guy at one point. when the penny drops you will understand why rtherringbone is asking what he is asking.

 

 

I know how I want to play, I just have struggled with the final third. Everything else has been going fine for me. Defensively we are solid, and I am 3rd in La liga. 


And I now understand about the high def line and line of engagement thanks to Johnny Aces helpful feedback. Which was a major flaw I didn't understand. We had no space because everyone was so compact. No runs etc.  And that's my point, I want to understand. 

 

But if you are just here to turn your noses at a player who may not have as deep of footballing eye as you, then I why bother commenting? It is not helping anyone. All I want to do is learn and understand how I can get my front 3 working in my tika taka system. 

 

Edited by angelo994

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Why are you guys jumping down his throat for asking for help? It's like going to your math teacher and saying you need some help figuring out a problem and you saying well why don't you go back and figure it out yourself. Either offer some help or don't bother commenting. People can't play the game differently than you and that's ok. 

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7 hours ago, angelo994 said:

Hmm kind of harsh. I just want to understand where I was going wrong. I apologise I can't read the game as well as you guys. I don't see the harm in wanting to learn and improve though. 

It's perfectly fine to want to learn and improve. You have to go about it the right way though. There is no magic formula or smash tactic anymore. It's a process and if you want to be better you have to understand that process. 

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8 hours ago, angelo994 said:

But if you are just here to turn your noses at a player who may not have as deep of footballing eye as you, then I why bother commenting? It is not helping anyone. All I want to do is learn and understand how I can get my front 3 working in my tika taka system. 

Spot on, however, i think you have mistaken RTHs post (easily dont when having to deal with just the written word from a stranger no less). He was perhaps a little dry, and subtle, but his point is a lot more helpful than the friendlier guys bombing you with more specific 'fixes'. 

Primarily, even if you stumble across a temporary fix because one user tells you to change from an Af to a f9, it will not help you in the long run. 

You want to get to a point where;

You have a clear idea of how you want go play.

You are able to choose a logical set of roles and duties to achieve your goal. 

You have the ability to analyse what works and what doesnt

You have the ability to continually tweak, observe, tweak

You are able to identify the righ players for your chosen roles. 

............ 

This is the holy grail. There are some great guides in the stickies... Rashidi 12 step... Cleons art of analysis (as well as detailed guides on how to achieve certain playing styles) 

None of them are intended as 'do this and you win'... But should impart some wisdom and principles that help you achieve the list above.

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On 26/10/2018 at 03:30, angelo994 said:

Currently in my second season with Real Betis. Finished first season 2nd in the league with a 4-3-3- tiki taka style formation. But now my front line is seriously struggling and I have no idea why.

My strikers have scored 3 goals between them in the league, and its now december. My IF left (Denis) has been atrocious out wide.

Here  are some screen shots of my setup and instructions. Someone help. Please.

Most goals are coming from crosses in the beta. How tall is your striker? Make sure you have the appropriate crossing style picked.

Also I think because through balls aren't working so well in the beta having a DLF and inside forwards who exploit the space behind him doesn't work well either. Best to make him a CF, PF or even poacher and play for crosses. 

Edited by pauly15

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While we're at it could someone review my set up please? 

I've set a positive mentality as I want to control the game posession wise.

I'm also using a standard D-Line and LOE as I don't want to be too vulnerable to balls over the top. Pressing Intensity is set at more urgent because the overall mentality is pretty aggresive.

Furthermore the GK distribution is set to CB's and no added instructions.

Finally the rest of the TI's are the same as the Tiki-Taka default. 

IMG_20181027_232915.jpg

I would like to achieve high possession statistics and primarially attack through the middle and work the ball through the thirds with quick short passes while also taking advantage of wing play and counters when it's feasible. 

Edited by 3LionsFM
Added views on how I would like tactic to play out

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That set up does trouble me  @3LionsFM :D

The centre mid pairing are both going to roam, I can't make out Gundagan's role but he's going to have a lot of work to do covering that back 4

I can't see any central goalscoring threats, they both come from wide

Have you tried out this formation? Did anything work out as you wanted?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, 3LionsFM said:

While we're at it could someone review my set up please? 

I've set a positive mentality as I want to control the game posession wise.

I'm also using a standard D-Line and LOE as I don't want to be too vulnerable to balls over the top. Pressing Intensity is set at more urgent because the overall mentality is pretty aggresive.

Furthermore the GK distribution is set to CB's and no added instructions.

Finally the rest of the TI's are the same as the Tiki-Taka default. 

IMG_20181027_232915.jpg

I would like to achieve high possession statistics and primarially attack through the middle and work the ball through the thirds with quick short passes while also taking advantage of wing play and counters when it's feasible. 

I agree with Johnny, 4 of your front 5 players A. Want the ball to feet, and B. Look to play risky passes, but Mahrez is the only player attacking space immediately. Even though the W-A is an underrated goalscorer, he's much more of an outlet/runner/provider and I can't really see where your goals are coming from. Considering the DLF is on support, I'd definitely look at having a central runner getting close to him, either a BBM/Mez/CM-A. 

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8 hours ago, 3LionsFM said:

While we're at it could someone review my set up please? 

I've set a positive mentality as I want to control the game posession wise.

I'm also using a standard D-Line and LOE as I don't want to be too vulnerable to balls over the top. Pressing Intensity is set at more urgent because the overall mentality is pretty aggresive.

Furthermore the GK distribution is set to CB's and no added instructions.

Finally the rest of the TI's are the same as the Tiki-Taka default. 

IMG_20181027_232915.jpg

I would like to achieve high possession statistics and primarially attack through the middle and work the ball through the thirds with quick short passes while also taking advantage of wing play and counters when it's feasible. 

Agüero DLF and Mahrez winger are clearly the wrong roles! 

Attacking wing backs, higher d line, make sure the advanced playmaker (and front 3) has pressing level increased in his player instructions... RPM is ambitious for the second midfield role, but city can probably pull it off. Attacking and defensive width wide...

Edited by pauly15

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On 25/10/2018 at 23:30, angelo994 said:

Currently in my second season with Real Betis. Finished first season 2nd in the league with a 4-3-3- tiki taka style formation. But now my front line is seriously struggling and I have no idea why.

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread and don't have the beta. My contribution is pointing out that this is exactly what happened to tiki-taka in real life. After Barcelona and Spain had dominated with the system for about 8 years, two managers in particular sussed it out - Klopp and Simeone. Previously opponents defended deep and let the tikkies tap the ball around in midfield until Messi found a chink. Klopp busted it with his Geggenpressing, not allowing anyone time on the ball.

So my question is, never mind your system, what are the opposition doing that is different to the previous season? If you can identify the antithesis, you can devise a counter-thesis and evolve your tactic.

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Thanks for the tips.

 

@Johnny Ace Gundogan is a Half Back.

Because of injuries my hand is forced so that's why I'm playing some players in unfamiliar positions. 

I've changed the tactica a bit. Now I've got two CM-A in front of a HB. The front 3 and WB's are in support. I've also set defensive width to wide and attacking width to fairly narrow. 

Edited by 3LionsFM
Included tactical changes

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Poor Gundogan :(:) Now he has two runners in front of him

Think sitter, runner, creator for those midfield 3. In the simplest form with a midfield DM triangle a good balance would be be DM D, CM S & a CM A

Similar to your front 3, scorer, runner, creator. Any role here is capable of scoring but have a think, who's the main goalscoring threat? Who's going to to be the main creator? Who's going to drive into the box/ out wide with the ball?

Oh, check Mahrez's PPMs too, from what I remember , he's not going to play like a Winger 

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I've set Aguero to AF (scorer) and got an IF-A (creator) on one side and a W-S (runner) on the other. I've set the midfield roles to the suggestion above and I'll play a few games to see what's happening on the pitch. 

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Think about your left side of your team. You have an IF-A, CM-A, and a CWB all on the left side. If I was facing that team I would counter you down the right all game long. All of those 3 roles don't like to track back and help out on defense and are slower to get back. Your HB is goin to get dragged out wide and you will most likely leak goals. 

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On 26/10/2018 at 18:37, pauly15 said:

Most goals are coming from crosses in the beta. How tall is your striker? Make sure you have the appropriate crossing style picked.

Also I think because through balls aren't working so well in the beta having a DLF and inside forwards who exploit the space behind him doesn't work well either. Best to make him a CF, PF or even poacher and play for crosses. 

My strikers are all fairly small & I have noticed that all my goals have come from crosses. Very rarely has a through ball from the middle resulted in a goal. So this is interesting if true. 

My setup looks like this  lGRniGS.jpg 

With Munir / Denis alternating on the left. Denis plays as an IF - s, with Munir as a Winger - A. 

Sanabria has scored 6 goals in 7 (1 more goal than his ENTIRE record for the league last year.) So the setup does seem to be working. However, I am struggling to get him to move into channels for the layoff pass from either Quintero or the AP-a. Sometimes I find Sanabria is extremely isolated and doesn't make many runs. Or even any shots. I've changed it about from almost every Striker role, and I find the best results from Pressing Forward. But that is not a striker role that really gets him into position to beat the defender. 

Here are some screenshots of my setup and results. 

Edited by angelo994

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That looks a lot better, a very nice setup!! Glad he's getting some goals for you!!

I can't remember if the Pressing Forward Attack has instructions to roam but he's more about pressing the backline *just checked, he has move into Channels but no Roam. Maybe add that instruction or try another role for the sort of movement you want, what's his Off the Ball rating? It's important if you want good movement from him 

 

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IMO, you have to watch your tactic and see what does and doesn't work because at some point, when you have success, you'll have to know how to adjust to your opponents more defensive tactics.  You'll have to find ways to break them down and be able to react to the inevitable counter.

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7 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

That looks a lot better, a very nice setup!! Glad he's getting some goals for you!!

I can't remember if the Pressing Forward Attack has instructions to roam but he's more about pressing the backline *just checked, he has move into Channels but no Roam. Maybe add that instruction or try another role for the sort of movement you want, what's his Off the Ball rating? It's important if you want good movement from him 

 

Cheers for the feedback.

 

So I had a look, Sanabria has an off the ball rating of 14. Which is fairly decent. Also, I do have him roaming from position on his individual player instructions for the tactic. So I'm still not sure. Is it due to a lack of space, or just simply a result of us playing the ball shorter?

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