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Posted (edited)

Norwich City - First season: Won FA cup & the PL title!!!

Decided to start another new save with Norwich City and what should I say guys? The Fire&Water 4321 did it again for me.

Actually I'm using the tweaked version by @RDF Tactics with the floated crosses - nothing else changed.

1949229349_!!!!!!FM20.4.1FireandWaterVOL24321OXP103ECfloat.fmf

Won the Premier League and the FA cup in the first season.

Very important information:

- I don't play instant result

- no plug and play - doing lots of micro-management in my saves

- training by @Rober82 @RDF Tactics 

https://www.fmscout.com/a-fm20-development-guide-and-training-schedules.html

- there's an pdf-document of @Rober82 at the first page of this thread -> read it and follow it exactly; what I mean, take that time and manage all that backroom transfers for getting amazing results

- I've got 4 fitness coaches and I'll go up to 6 -> this gives the squad amazing abilities

 

Last and important as well:

Take a look at one post above of @Rober82 - I'm using this man marking in EVERY match and it made me damn stable in AWAY matches.

I don't need to tweak anymore for big away matches.

2098008554_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_20.thumb.png.cd200a7e673bfc2467ffa53e1b44ae5b.png 708568502_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_29.thumb.png.ca8020ca6363da103183b02b5af6cbe6.png 810413276_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_34.thumb.png.331ba3b9b5c2f429469f8d1745ec70ba.png

1204100955_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_56.thumb.png.43c16ef2187e0bcba8bd8dfe537d3b77.png

 

@knap @Rober82 @RDF Tactics

Thank you for that amazing work :)

Let's bring some young talented guys into this Norwich squad now and go for even more titles :)

Edited by solounamigo

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Posted (edited)
vor 17 Minuten schrieb adlyd90:

@solounamigo @knap @Rober82 @RDF Tactics

That question. What do you do when the opposing team doesn't use the playmaker?

Nearly every formation uses DM, CM or something like that. For example if they are playing with an standard 442 formation, then I'm looking at the both CMs (the deeper one will be marked).

If they've got the exact same positions, them I'm looking at their assists and other stats - the one with more assists would be marked.

But I think @Rober82 or @knap are able to tell you a lot of more "correct" information for that topic :)

Edited by solounamigo

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i use 997963911 _ !!!!!!!!!! FM20.4.1FIREWATERKnapVOL24312P103FA

Manchester United_ Kampe og resultater.png

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6 minutes ago, solounamigo said:

Nearly every formation uses DM, CM or something like that. For example if they are playing with an standard 442 formation, then I'm looking at the both CMs (the deeper one will be marked).

If they've got the exact same positions, them I'm looking at their assists and other stats - the one with more assists would be marked.

But I think @Rober82 or @knap are able to tell you a lot of more "correct" information for that topic :)

Do you choose only those playmaker who are in the middle of the field?

So if they don't have any playmakers, it's better to marked those who have more assists?

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5 ore fa, marksmithlfc1234 ha scritto:

Mate i won everything with wolves using Fire4312 and Dorksirjur2413 in tandem . 

One tip for when your playing man city Liverpool is in Fire4312 you need to pull the centre midfielder back to defence mid whwn playing These bigger teams . 

They do work and trustthe tactic ĺet your ass man do all team talks....very important . Good Luck 

I had great time with an almost unknown tweak of a tactic downloaded on Si Forum / another topic.

It was 23221 , WBs one notch ahead, CM one notch behind set as deep lying playmaker defensive duties. 

Mentality balanced (i guess is balanced in the english version. Its one level down positive.

         GK

      CD-CD

  WB-DM-WB

MR           ML

  AMC-AMC

         ST

I used it with a subtop team.

Almost unbeatable at home and away with weaker and mid or subtop.

But not consistent against top dogs

 

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10 minutes ago, solounamigo said:

Nearly every formation uses DM, CM or something like that. For example if they are playing with an standard 442 formation, then I'm looking at the both CMs (the deeper one will be marked).

If they've got the exact same positions, them I'm looking at their assists and other stats - the one with more assists would be marked.

But I think @Rober82 or @knap are able to tell you a lot of more "correct" information for that topic :)

You are spot on. I would also look at key passes. Glad it is working for you!

The Idea is to cut of the supply from the back or slow it. Either you win the ball, you make him give it away. Or he passes it back to the Defenders.
Around this area we have 2 AMcs and a striker gegenpressing.
This is why we pick the lowest one who is DLP. It's like taking Pirlo out of the game.

They will then need to change or find another way forward, maybe hot long balls.
 

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9 minutes ago, Rober82 said:

You are spot on. I would also look at key passes. Glad it is working for you!

The Idea is to cut of the supply from the back or slow it. Either you win the ball, you make him give it away. Or he passes it back to the Defenders.
Around this area we have 2 AMcs and a striker gegenpressing.
This is why we pick the lowest one who is DLP. It's like taking Pirlo out of the game.

They will then need to change or find another way forward, maybe hot long balls.
 

I played against Wolves and they had two playmaker
Saiss - dlp
Neves - ap
And in your opinion I would marking Saiss?

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Just now, adlyd90 said:

I played against Wolves and they had two playmaker
Saiss - dlp
Neves - ap
And in your opinion I would marking Saiss?

The analyst report will tell you this.

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1 minute ago, Rober82 said:

The analyst report will tell you this.

The report just told me that they had these two playmakers

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3 minutes ago, Rober82 said:

The analyst report will tell you this.

And is it recommended to mark the playmaker in the AM position?

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Posted (edited)
On 01/05/2020 at 00:23, adlyd90 said:

The report just told me that they had these two playmakers

Edit: So I have edited the post here to add some about the marking I have used at Oxford climbing up to the PL.
This was discovered first by @Cadoni @RDF Tactics and me, so credit is always shared.
I started using it in the whole league 1 campaign, and also in the championship. The results were great, as the AI mostly had below 10-7 shots total and could not create much. There are probably many ways to do this, this is mine.

I use a tactic with 2 AMcs, Fire and Water4321 p 103, by @knap, and I mark the link between the midfield and the defense.
Normally it is the DLP who is lowest in their midfield, a DMC or a CM who is a bit lower in the set up.

The thinking is to stop the AI from playing out from the back by using the closest AMC for marking their lowest midfielder, be it a DMC or a MC who drops deep, depending on their formation.
We are in this tactic pressing hard with 2 amcs and a striker, so the more stress the better.
If we make the DLP loose tha ball, great! Maybe he will get stressed an play a poor pass, or maybe he will not get the ball at all.
Maybe he will get it but sees no other option that to play it back to the DC who is then being pressured again.
This can be used against small teams an big teams, but be aware that City might have Rodri, KdB and B. Silva, who are really all playmakers.
But you do not face many teams like that.

Edit 2: 11 may update, we have now started using another fire and water23212p104 for MM, one with 2 PFs and one AMC.
Here we use the left pressing forward to mark the  DMC, or if none, MC who drops down to get the ball from the defence.
It works even better, and their entire attack is shut down.

So how do you find out who to mark?


The opposition report and the analyst report tells you so much info.


The first page under OI report tells you that when bruno and  pogba is playing together it is Pogba who is Dlp and lowest. You can see that on the picture.

1611694340_2020-05-01(1).thumb.png.06960e1f91cc804026d91005bfdb33b9.png

The second page shows you different things for the last three games. They might have used different roles and players, so look for the one that fits today.
There is also the passing network who shows you who all pass to most, and is in the middle of it.

1608671731_2020-05-01(2).thumb.png.a3359e1c2b4743282c51a386e3aa5dbb.png

Then if you check the "team selection" of AI, it here shows the last game. On that picture you see Fred playing, and as a dlp lower than Pogba.

354890421_2020-05-01(4).thumb.png.64d0c9759c5d887841b127062387d7ab.png
 

For some games you can also use the positional heat map, found next to the passing network.


You then know some things.
Bruno and Pogba then Pogba is lowest. Pogba and Fred, Fred is lowest and Dlp.

Then go to marking, and see who is playing. Here it is Pogba and Bruno.

243435893_2020-05-01(3).thumb.png.42807c265c3e4ce9d66407b8caade5df.png

For me it is obvious to try and take the lowest mc, in this case Pogba out of the game by using your closest AMC or PF if using 2 striker tactic.
This player will be bizzy with this, so use your "least important one" and shift sides if neccesary.

You can check if it is working by checking key passes, "touches" and posession in the report after the game. It's there if you look.

If you are still not sure, check their roles and their key passes in games before.
Some formations are harder than others, and I would encourage you to try it out before asking a question .Learn by doing! :)

Good luck!

Edited by Rober82

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i'm struggling a bit with 4-3-1-2 with SLB (UCL Matches even tho i have Bailey, Dembele, Pellegrini)

 

Which setting in Responsabilities > Tactics am i suppose to lead? 1st or 3rd?

or can i make the AM to do both ?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Rober82 said:

The opposition report and the analyst report tells you so much info.

Here the first page even shows who is lowest against southampton, it is pogba, There is also the passing network which shows you who is the central. Look around a bit :)

The first page under OI report tells you that when bruno and  pogba is playing together it is Pogba who is Dlp and lowest. You can see that on the picture.

1611694340_2020-05-01(1).thumb.png.06960e1f91cc804026d91005bfdb33b9.png

The second page shows you different things for the last three games. They might have used different roles and players, so look for the one that fits today.
There is also the passing network who shows you who all pass to most, and is in the middle of it.

1608671731_2020-05-01(2).thumb.png.a3359e1c2b4743282c51a386e3aa5dbb.png

Then if you check the "team selection" of AI, it here shows the last game. On that picture you see Fred lower than Pogba.

354890421_2020-05-01(4).thumb.png.64d0c9759c5d887841b127062387d7ab.png


You then know some things.
Bruno and Pogba then Pogba is lowest. Pogba and Fred, Fred is lowest and Dlp.

Then go to marking, and see who is playing. Here it is Pogba and Bruno.

243435893_2020-05-01(3).thumb.png.42807c265c3e4ce9d66407b8caade5df.png

Pogba will be marked.

But which player on your team should be doing the marking ??? Am Cm Cb ??? 

Edited by marksmithlfc1234

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Bordeaux Season 5, I won the CL for the first year after lose in semi final and final against Liverpool (They won 4 CL in 6 years old)

200501072351164214.png

Liverpool in 1/4 CL (big revenge)

200501072601588197.png

Paris in CL final

200501072601709662.png

Monaco with B team in French cup final

200501072749741919.png

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8 hours ago, solounamigo said:

Norwich City - First season: Won FA cup & the PL title!!!

Decided to start another new save with Norwich City and what should I say guys? The Fire&Water 4321 did it again for me.

Actually I'm using the tweaked version by @RDF Tactics with the floated crosses - nothing else changed.

1949229349_!!!!!!FM20.4.1FireandWaterVOL24321OXP103ECfloat.fmf 45.41 kB · 57 downloads

Won the Premier League and the FA cup in the first season.

Very important information:

- I don't play instant result

- no plug and play - doing lots of micro-management in my saves

- training by @Rober82 @RDF Tactics 

https://www.fmscout.com/a-fm20-development-guide-and-training-schedules.html

- there's an pdf-document of @Rober82 at the first page of this thread -> read it and follow it exactly; what I mean, take that time and manage all that backroom transfers for getting amazing results

- I've got 4 fitness coaches and I'll go up to 6 -> this gives the squad amazing abilities

 

Last and important as well:

Take a look at one post above of @Rober82 - I'm using this man marking in EVERY match and it made me damn stable in AWAY matches.

I don't need to tweak anymore for big away matches.

2098008554_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_20.thumb.png.cd200a7e673bfc2467ffa53e1b44ae5b.png 708568502_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_29.thumb.png.ca8020ca6363da103183b02b5af6cbe6.png 810413276_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_34.thumb.png.331ba3b9b5c2f429469f8d1745ec70ba.png

1204100955_Bildschirmfoto2020-04-30um22_38_56.thumb.png.43c16ef2187e0bcba8bd8dfe537d3b77.png

 

@knap @Rober82 @RDF Tactics

Thank you for that amazing work :)

Let's bring some young talented guys into this Norwich squad now and go for even more titles :)

Have you got coaches doing other stuff aswell?? 

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4 hours ago, marksmithlfc1234 said:

But which player on your team should be doing the marking ??? Am Cm Cb ??? 

AMC position.

Fire & Water tactic does not have MC position.

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Who take the corner ?

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25 minutes ago, Cadoni said:

AMC position.

Fire & Water tactic does not have MC position.

might depend on which one. 

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@solounamigo With Norwich, apart from the man marking, did you ever change attacking to anything else and if so under what circumstances?

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Hi everyone, no tactic from me but i am looking for advice on how to draw/win big away matches, i am quite experienced in fm and currently demolishing with barca on my third season with 24 wins in 25 games, but i drew liverpool in UCL and on the first match away they smashed me 3-0, I use a attacking 4231 very simillar to the one knap posted, and for the liverpool match instead of attacking mentality i put defensive and still got battered. Any advice?

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Scruffer23:

Have you got coaches doing other stuff aswell?? 

Of course, everything like mentioned in @RDF Tactics training guide and the pdf file of @Rober82 

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Danny648:

@solounamigo With Norwich, apart from the man marking, did you ever change attacking to anything else and if so under what circumstances?

Never change a winning team - nope I didn't tweak anything. I did not rotate very often, means that I had a first 11 which made 80% of the matches

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hace 4 minutos, solounamigo dijo:

Of course, everything like mentioned in @RDF Tactics training guide and the pdf file of @Rober82 

Never change a winning team - nope I didn't tweak anything. I did not rotate very often, means that I had a first 11 which made 80% of the matches

And what do you do to close a game?

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23 minutes ago, solounamigo said:

Never change a winning team - nope I didn't tweak anything. I did not rotate very often, means that I had a first 11 which made 80% of the matches

So when you played Liverpool at Anfield you started with attacking mentality? Also throughout the match just leave it even if you go 2 goals down? Thanks for the reply too mate

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb sergiolagartija:

And what do you do to close a game?

Nothing, I use a lot of team shouts, to keep the concentration and motivation up during the match. as often as possible use "demand more" during a match.

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Danny648:

So when you played Liverpool at Anfield you started with attacking mentality? Also throughout the match just leave it even if you go 2 goals down? Thanks for the reply too mate

Yes, some saves before I always wanted to tweak this tactic to become a better "away version". Now in this Norwich save I figured out, that if you use all that micro-management things and the man marking by @Rober82, it's not necessary to tweak something vs big clubs or away. 

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Sorry for the slightly boring post but I think its really interesting to see how things have developed on here.  

It seems apparent that unless you are with an elite team you really need to work hard to achive success this year.  In previous years a great tactic and astute signings were enough to do really well and over-achive but just doesnt seem enough on FM20.  Do you think this is how its going to be going forward now?

Awesome work from you guys on here including Knap (where would we be without the tactics??) to RDF and Rober for their awesome work on the training and tweaking side of things!  I know at various times I have used ALOT of the advice on here from all sources.

I have always been committed but lazy with Football Manager but after a slow start I am really enjoying getting me teeth into the extra work that is needed.

Anyway, I will bore off now as I have a new Toulouse save with my name on it...

Mike 

 

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3 minutes ago, solounamigo said:

Yes, some saves before I always wanted to tweak this tactic to become a better "away version". Now in this Norwich save I figured out, that if you use all that micro-management things and the man marking by @Rober82, it's not necessary to tweak something vs big clubs or away. 

Thanks mate, well hopefully this can be the tactic to push my Sunderland save forward, Got back to back promotions in the first 2 seasons, finished 6th in both premier league seasons so far, currently on my worst run of form of the save, im in the january transfer market, what would you say are the most important positions or the positions you would strengthen first? Also do you have a screenshot of your team screen from your Norwich save, with the goals, assists and avg rating?

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hace 12 minutos, solounamigo dijo:

Nothing, I use a lot of team shouts, to keep the concentration and motivation up during the match. as often as possible use "demand more" during a match.

Yes, some saves before I always wanted to tweak this tactic to become a better "away version". Now in this Norwich save I figured out, that if you use all that micro-management things and the man marking by @Rober82, it's not necessary to tweak something vs big clubs or away. 

Thanks mate. And what kind of player do you use as the MC? I´m wondering if tackling is needed for him.

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vor 47 Minuten schrieb Danny648:

Thanks mate, well hopefully this can be the tactic to push my Sunderland save forward, Got back to back promotions in the first 2 seasons, finished 6th in both premier league seasons so far, currently on my worst run of form of the save, im in the january transfer market, what would you say are the most important positions or the positions you would strengthen first? Also do you have a screenshot of your team screen from your Norwich save, with the goals, assists and avg rating?

I think @knap would be able to answer the most important positions question better than everyone else here :).

I already deleted my Norwich save, because I'm interested in testing this tactic with other underdog teams as well. Just don't know yet which team / league I will choose now :/

vor 45 Minuten schrieb sergiolagartija:

Thanks mate. And what kind of player do you use as the MC? I´m wondering if tackling is needed for him.

Keep in mind that you should use one of the AMC's for the the man marking.

In my opinion important attributes for the MC are anticipation, technique and passing. He should be able to control the game as some kind of "playmaker".

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Posted (edited)

Can't seem to beat any of the small teams away from home with Fire and Water's popular tactic. Currently managing Newcastle for the past few years and I've done well, finished in the top four twice in the past 3 years but I want to make that next step and actually challenge for the league.

Whilst at home I pretty must dismantle every team in front of me, even in Europe I'm very strong but once I rock up to the likes of Burnley, Bournemouth, Villa, Brighton...I always seem to get turned over away from home despite missing clear cut chances in the game. 

Anyone have another tactic I could use to beat them teams? Or maybe I'm not using the opposition reports enough

Edited by Lorcarito

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Wow first match with the OI that Robert recommended

20200501125645_1.jpg

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Posted (edited)
21 минуту назад, sieg33 сказал:

Wow first match with the OI that Robert recommended

20200501125645_1.jpg

 

Can you say more about OI?

Edited by Stremka

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19 minutes ago, sieg33 said:

Wow first match with the OI that Robert recommended

20200501125645_1.jpg

Hi mate, what tactic do you use and what is the OI recommended ?

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When using the OI's is clickiing tight marking on the opposition instructions page the same as going into your player instructions and telling your AM to specifically mark that oppenent or do both?

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Im sure there was a guide about in game shouts and tweaks, when to change defensive line and time wasting etc? Can someone point me in the right direction?

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hi knap which tactic is the best at the moment you think vs IA ? and which one can be really great vs real player on pvp ?

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1 hour ago, Lorcarito said:

Can't seem to beat any of the small teams away from home with Fire and Water's popular tactic. Currently managing Newcastle for the past few years and I've done well, finished in the top four twice in the past 3 years but I want to make that next step and actually challenge for the league.

Whilst at home I pretty must dismantle every team in front of me, even in Europe I'm very strong but once I rock up to the likes of Burnley, Bournemouth, Villa, Brighton...I always seem to get turned over away from home despite missing clear cut chances in the game. 

Anyone have another tactic I could use to beat them teams? Or maybe I'm not using the opposition reports enough

I try multiple things if I'm struggling to score

- dribble less (it's a permanent addition now)

- switching the crossing (floated crosses, low crosses)

- change attacking width dependent on their formation

4411 is a decent formation away from home, maybe look at the teaforone setups, I'd avoid the 4411 blackecho away from home.

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Posted (edited)

@knap 

Cant seem to find URO tweak 20.4.1? No link in google docs either?

Edited by pilmalm

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Marking Guide Post be Rober added to google doc post

 

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14 hours ago, Rober82 said:

You are spot on. I would also look at key passes. Glad it is working for you!

The Idea is to cut of the supply from the back or slow it. Either you win the ball, you make him give it away. Or he passes it back to the Defenders.
Around this area we have 2 AMcs and a striker gegenpressing.
This is why we pick the lowest one who is DLP. It's like taking Pirlo out of the game.

They will then need to change or find another way forward, maybe hot long balls.
 

Im facing City, They have De Bruyne playing as Adavanced Playmaker with 16 assists, then have Bentacur slighlty deeper as a Deep Lying Playmaker on 2 assists, Shall i mark them both or just De Bruyne?

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Just now, Danny648 said:

Im facing City, They have De Bruyne playing as Adavanced Playmaker with 16 assists, then have Bentacur slighlty deeper as a Deep Lying Playmaker on 2 assists, Shall i mark them both or just De Bruyne?

Bentacur....the aim is to stop the build up...De Bruyne is instructed to be advanced (though he has come deep to get ball) so by the time De Bruyne is involved, City have already built their attack...but you can MAYBE use OI and put "never tight mark" or De Bruyne...He's so dangerous, if he beats the tight mark then he can do his magic

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Guys! 

Anyone used ARGUS 343 IF, and could tell how it stands against one of the better 4231/4411? ;)

 

Thanks!

 

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Posted (edited)
Il y a 15 heures, Rober82 a dit :

Edit: So I have edited the post here to add some about the marking I have used at Oxford climbing up to the PL.
This was discovered first by @Cadoni @RDF Tactics and me, so credit is always shared.
I started using it in the whole league 1 campaign, and also in the championship. The results were great, as the AI mostly had below 10-7 shots total and could not create much. There are probably many ways to do this, this is mine.

I use a tactic with 2 AMcs, Fire and Water p 103, by @knap, and I mark the link between the midfield and the defense.
Normally it is the DLP who is lowest in their midfield, a DMC or a CM who is a bit lower in the set up.

The thinking is to stop the AI from playing out from the back by using the closest MC for marking.
We are in this tactic pressing hard with 2 amcs and a striker, so the more stress the better.
If we make the DLP loose tha ball, great! Maybe he will get stressed an play a poor pass, or maybe he will not get the ball at all.
Maybe he will get it but sees no other option that to play it back to the DC who is then being pressured again.
This can be used against small teams an big teams, but be aware that City might have Rodri, KdB and B. Silva, who are really all playmakers.
But you do not face many teams like that.
So how do you find out who to mark?


The opposition report and the analyst report tells you so much info.


The first page under OI report tells you that when bruno and  pogba is playing together it is Pogba who is Dlp and lowest. You can see that on the picture.

1611694340_2020-05-01(1).thumb.png.06960e1f91cc804026d91005bfdb33b9.png

The second page shows you different things for the last three games. They might have used different roles and players, so look for the one that fits today.
There is also the passing network who shows you who all pass to most, and is in the middle of it.

1608671731_2020-05-01(2).thumb.png.a3359e1c2b4743282c51a386e3aa5dbb.png

Then if you check the "team selection" of AI, it here shows the last game. On that picture you see Fred playing, and as a dlp lower than Pogba.

354890421_2020-05-01(4).thumb.png.64d0c9759c5d887841b127062387d7ab.png


You then know some things.
Bruno and Pogba then Pogba is lowest. Pogba and Fred, Fred is lowest and Dlp.

Then go to marking, and see who is playing. Here it is Pogba and Bruno.

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For me it is obvious to try and take Pogba out of the game by using your closest AMC.
This player will be bizzy with this, so use your "least important one" and shift sides if neccesary.

You can check if it is working by checking key passes, "touches" and posession in the report after the game. It's there if you look.

If you are still not sure, check their roles and their key passes in games before.
Some formations are harder than others, and I would encourage you to try it out before asking a question Learn by doing! :)

Good luck!

What AMC I have to use to mark a MC ? And what MC I have to mark ? The lowest ? Sorry I'm french..

Edited by pinardier8282

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6 hours ago, solounamigo said:

Of course, everything like mentioned in @RDF Tactics training guide and the pdf file of @Rober82 

Never change a winning team - nope I didn't tweak anything. I did not rotate very often, means that I had a first 11 which made 80% of the matches

@solounamigo I  mean have you got coaches doing possession,att and defence because at the mo I have wondering if I should get rid of the others 

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Il y a 3 heures, ElComandante a dit :

Hi mate, what tactic do you use and what is the OI recommended ?

 

Il y a 3 heures, Stremka a dit :

Can you say more about OI?

 HI I use fire and water p 103 .For the Oi i'm telling my less creative AMC to mark the dmc or the most creative of the mc 

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Posted (edited)

I've been using the chonga 424 for a few days now and I'm impressed with the results in Europe. No transfers just youth only. And I know the quality of the other teams in the league is absolute trash (so is mine tbh) but I didn't excpect so many goals.

Edit: forgot to mention I use IR every game.

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Edited by Slapstick2244

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