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FM 19 Beowulf 442, 4411,4420 4420wings and 424 424 IF

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@knap this one looks good, you already tested it with an underdog team again?

Would like to know if it could be the better choice as away tactic for my save than the other deep sicilian defense tactic :)

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If you are happy with results, then I would not change. Although this has more points it may not be better as an away tactic.

These standard tactics are specifically for teams that struggle with a high defensive line.

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im seriously considering the 4411IW or the strikerless tactic for spurs. played your 4411P110 with great success but this seems interesting

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I find Spurs play best with AMR/L, with strikerless I assume re train Kane as SS which worked well in FM 17.

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The !FM19.2.1DEEPSICILIANDEFENCEKnapP103.fmf has been very solid for me but I can't get any consistency from my Strikers unless they're World Class caliber. I have a mixture of regens and RL players at Chelsea. The transfer of strikers has been a revolving door at my club. They're all decent to very good strikers with the one young regen being world class and almost unstoppable. Most of them will score a goal or two in one game and then completely disappear for the next 5 matches. 

   Team report say the club lacks bravery. Wonder if it's 19.2.1 or just bad luck/bad decisions in the transfer market with forwards. I'd hate to switch tactics because I'm still winning, plus I have Jaden Sancho & Marco Asensio-two of my best players & natural wingers. 

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Try the new one above as a different set up which may help forwards.

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52 minutes ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

The !FM19.2.1DEEPSICILIANDEFENCEKnapP103.fmf has been very solid for me but I can't get any consistency from my Strikers unless they're World Class caliber. I have a mixture of regens and RL players at Chelsea. The transfer of strikers has been a revolving door at my club. They're all decent to very good strikers with the one young regen being world class and almost unstoppable. Most of them will score a goal or two in one game and then completely disappear for the next 5 matches. 

   Team report say the club lacks bravery. Wonder if it's 19.2.1 or just bad luck/bad decisions in the transfer market with forwards. I'd hate to switch tactics because I'm still winning, plus I have Jaden Sancho & Marco Asensio-two of my best players & natural wingers. 

I feel like it's a problem in the ME on FM19. Many tactics have problem with struggling strikers compared to FM18 where a decent striker would score 25+ goals in a league season

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2 hours ago, knap said:

I find Spurs play best with AMR/L, with strikerless I assume re train Kane as SS which worked well in FM 17.

Yeah and i like 4231 tactics but they seem to leak "a lot" of goals compared to the 4411 etc. Even looking at your Spurs screenshots its clear that the 4231 leaks a bit more goals (5-10 more actually) and usually score quite a bit less.

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Would anyone be a star by sending me the individual player instructions for the Beowulf 4240

don’t have a pc or Mac so can’t get them via the iTunes way

been using the Time tactics which are awesome as I can simply use them on the iPad with no PI but want to give Beowulf a whirl ! 

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I don't think the researchers have been kind to Spurs squad, hence less of everything compared to the other top teams. They also do not have much of a backup squad.

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Wow Knap you’ve gone over and beyond there my friend wasn’t expecting the set pieces ! Your the best ! 

I had been paying about with the set pieces myself with 5050 success but look forward to implementing yours 

your the don! 

Edited by Suffpunch89

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Knap, how do you feel that the team instructions interact with the player instructions?

All your tactics seem to have most players as tackle harder and mark tighter. The team is also told to get stuck in and use tighter marking.

Do you feel that these combine to make the marking 'ultra' tight and the tackling even harder?

I have never been sure if the team instructions are just 'shortcuts' to put a specific instruction on all players. For example, if 'Run at Defence' essentially instructs all players to 'Dribble More'. So if a player already has 'Dribble More' would the 'Run at Defence' instruction not apply to that player?

 

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1 hour ago, eencae said:

Knap, how do you feel that the team instructions interact with the player instructions?

All your tactics seem to have most players as tackle harder and mark tighter. The team is also told to get stuck in and use tighter marking.

Do you feel that these combine to make the marking 'ultra' tight and the tackling even harder?

I have never been sure if the team instructions are just 'shortcuts' to put a specific instruction on all players. For example, if 'Run at Defence' essentially instructs all players to 'Dribble More'. So if a player already has 'Dribble More' would the 'Run at Defence' instruction not apply to that player?

 

I don't think it makes the marking 'ultra' tight or tackling even harder. I am in no way an expert in terms of FM but I think the order is Player prefered moves > player instructions > team instructions, but only if there is a conflict between the instructions. For example, if you put a player with the PPM "Gets into opposition area" as a DLP, there will be a warning symbol next to that instruction to signal that player will not follow it.

Error.thumb.png.2282af9283cc1ce1b52b179b84ad9f8b.png

In the example of tighter marking, with the teams pressing intensity set to 'More Urgent', you have two options in terms of player instructions: 'Less Urgent' or 'Standard'. However, if you set the teams pressing intensity to 'Slightly Less Urgent', you instead get the option of giving an individual player the option of 'More Urgent' pressing. So you can tell the whole team to press less urgently while having your attackers or midfielders press more urgently. 

   737591727_PressingIntensity.png.0d5528710e288b5a94a9c43a7a253848.png f5de860f157f5e32a3c67653ba60a00e.png.1307ac3279f02c37830862ff8cef9894.png

'Run at defence' however is interesting if you also tell some players to 'dribble less'. Will they dribble less or will they run at defence?

I think the players you tell to dribble less will dribble less while the rest will run at the defence. So in a way you can either choose the team instruction 'Run at defence' and tell some players to dribble less or you could just tell some players to dribble more. It would be the same end result. 

Edited by Fribbe

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How you can have a tactical system with the instructions hidden is beyond me.

Because they are hidden you have to take an overview of what works and what does not.

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Thanks for your replies.

Although Knap, I do not understand what you mean regarding instructions being hidden?

I've been testing with one of the tactics (442TIME) and removing the 'Mark Tighter' and 'Tackle Harder' instructions from the players seems to make no discernible difference to the results (which are brilliant Knap, excellent work). This makes me think Fribbe is correct in the sense that having the 'Get Stuck In' and 'Tigher Marking' team instructions still cause the players to behave in the same way as if the had the tighter marking and harder tackling PI switched on.

I'm also interested by the 'Close Down More' and 'Pass It Shorter' PIs that are added to most of the players in the tactic. These appear to be a glitch? i.e. you cannot actually select these PIs when the team 'Pass It Shorter' and 'Extremely Urgent' pressing instructions are applied. To add these, you must first set the team passing and pressing to standard, which then allows you to tell the players to pass it shorter and close down more. You can then add the team instructions.

My question is therefore similar as my previous one, do you believe this makes the players pass even shorter and close down even more compared to just the team instructions? 

If so, for the passing, why not remove the PI for 'Pass it Shorter' and reduce the team passing to 'Much Shorter Passing' rather than 'Slightly Shorter Passing'?

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p.s. I am not criticising by the way, I am just trying to better understand how the match engine works and what makes your tactics so successful.

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You are identifying the issues involved

 These appear to be a glitch? i.e. you cannot actually select these PIs when the team 'Pass It Shorter' and 'Extremely Urgent' pressing instructions are applied. To add these, you must first set the team passing and pressing to standard, which then allows you to tell the players to pass it shorter and close down more. You can then add the team instructions.

 'Get Stuck In' and 'Tigher Marking' team instructions still cause the players to behave in the same way as if the had the tighter marking and harder tackling PI switched on.

The tactic system is probably  disjointed with no clear explanation.

That is why I say I take an overview pf what happens on pitch.

I have many tactic systems that start from different viewpoints

GOODBYE - Uses minimum TIs

DARK SIDE OF MOON - I try to use as many PIs and TI s as possible 

TIME - Uses no PIs

ROUTE 66 = Very direct passing

STARGAZING - Hit early crosses

I can add to or take away any instruction when looking at other tactic system, but I am not looking at the tactic system but what happens during games.

What is the difference between much shorter passing and slightly shorter passing, they only way to find out is playing games with both settings.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the reply - gives some insight, much appreciated.

I'm going to mess around with some testing and see what happens.

Out of interest, how thoroughly do you test each tactic? One season or many? Do you use a save-game editor to ensure there are no injuries so results are comparable etc.?

I've tried doing some experiments by saving and quitting and playing the same match again and again, but the results (especially against evenly-matched sides) can vary drastically playing exactly the same tactics. The inherent randomness of the ME therefore makes it hard to draw firm conclusions about what does and doesn't work.

However it does seem that tighter marking, harder tackling, intense pressing, shorter passing, high defensive line and narrow formations (i.e. to create compact tactics pushed high up the pitch) are fundamental feature of the current best tactics around. Productive set piece routines also seem critical (which makes me wonder why you don't see the 'Play for Set Pieces' instruction used very often).

It would be a nice machine learning project to get an AI to play a game millions of times with many different strategies - would be interesting to see if any completely wacky things work!

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Play for set pieces - What does it mean by way of tactical instructions?

I have no idea to use editor,  but a lot of others test minimising variables. However, using FMT and  top sides with quality backup solves those issues.

Experiment by starting with easier matches and then move it forward to harder games..

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27 minutes ago, knap said:

Play for set pieces - What does it mean by way of tactical instructions?

I have no idea to use editor,  but a lot of others test minimising variables. However, using FMT and  top sides with quality backup solves those issues.

Experiment by starting with easier matches and then move it forward to harder games..

There are no real details about what it actually does, but I assume it encourages diving (or at least going down easily when tackled) and/or look for deflections off opposition players to get free-kicks/corners.

Either way, I've just switched it on using a modified version of your 442MIDSOMERPressP104 (removing all PI related to shorter passing, closing down, harder tackling, tighter marking, shooting less etc. and changing team passing to much shorter, SK -> GK,  BPD -> CD) which some slight tweaks to set-pieces and won the first game 8-0 with 5 goals coming from set-pieces (long throw x 2, corner x 2 , in-direct fk x 1). Should also point out I'm training set pieces.

Hard to draw firm conclusions after one game, so will continue to do more testing.

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10 minutes ago, knap said:

When full testing starts it is over 180 games.

Much more thorough!

I've just realised that adding PIs  (e.g. mark tighter, close down more, tackle harder ) as well as Tis (e.g. Tighter Marking, Extremely Urgent, Get Stuck In) increases the overall intensity bar compared to just TI only, so there must be an effect on the tactic. So the 'glitch' of adding these PIs appears to be crucial.

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2 hours ago, eencae said:

 

I'm also interested by the 'Close Down More' and 'Pass It Shorter' PIs that are added to most of the players in the tactic. These appear to be a glitch? i.e. you cannot actually select these PIs when the team 'Pass It Shorter' and 'Extremely Urgent' pressing instructions are applied. To add these, you must first set the team passing and pressing to standard, which then allows you to tell the players to pass it shorter and close down more. You can then add the team instructions.

 

My question is therefore similar as my previous one, do you believe this makes the players pass even shorter and close down even more compared to just the team instructions? 

This discussion is a bit offtopic so I'm going to put it in a spoiler to not disrupt this thread about tactics too much. 

Spoiler

 

Let's put passing directness on a 1-5 scale:

TPD.png.b1a10bb812122f70f27d1f47dfe7a5a1.png

With the TPD on "Much Shorter", the player is set to PD.png.9e5ced83d1ab9fb2c6056e20739942f6.png with the option of telling an individual player to go more direct.

With the TPD on "Shorter", you get the same options. PD.png.9e5ced83d1ab9fb2c6056e20739942f6.png If you click on "Shorter passing" it will give a player the PI of Pass it Shorter. Now does that mean the whole team will pass it shorter but that individual player will pass it much shorter? I don't know. 

With the TPD on "Standard", you get three options for your player: "shorter", "standard" or "more direct". PD2.png.50a74b06e6122a178b8f2b32a2b795b0.pngHowever if passing directness is on 5-point scale, shouldn't you be able to tell a player on standard TPD to go much shorter or much more direct?

Oddly enough, if you tell the team to go "Slightly More Direct", you're left with the same options as before: "shorter" or "standard". PD.png.9e5ced83d1ab9fb2c6056e20739942f6.png This means you can't tell a player to go more direct, even though there is another notch on the TPD scale. So what happens if you set the TPD to Standard, give a player the "More direct" instruction and then change the TPD to "Slightly more direct". Will that player pass it slightly more direct like the team or much more direct because of his player instruction? 

 

 

Edited by Fribbe

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First game of the season with Beowulf 424.  Maybe this is going to be our season and we'll get out of this godforsaken league at last!!!

Capture.thumb.JPG.4c19794e719f3f94f7942977ffd89cae.JPG

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Even if you trust graphics the question is what is short passing or much shorter passing. Passing is just a risk factor and you would think shorter is safer but with a PF take fewer risks increases passing.

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No reason why not working, just the tactic has been updated in fact using 2 AFs work.

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When you look at passing the team instructions have 5 definitions yet a player has 3 definitions. From the start you have to question why there are 2 passing systems.

Edited by knap

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Finally got a 114 finish with your 442 f9 tactic thanks a lot man

This happened today too so I think it's time to try a different tactic!

 

 

fm3.png

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13 minutes ago, knap said:

When you look at passing the team instructions have 5 definitions yet a player has 3 definitions. From the start you have to question why there are 2 passing systems.

Yes, it's very confusing. 

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1 hour ago, Fribbe said:

Yes, it's very confusing. 

 

2 hours ago, knap said:

When you look at passing the team instructions have 5 definitions yet a player has 3 definitions. From the start you have to question why there are 2 passing systems.

I don’t think there will be 2 passing systems. Under the hood I think there’ll be just be one underlying passing algorithm in the match engine that determines how a player passes the ball.

The confusion occurs because there are two ways to interact with that algorithm (player and team instructions, three if you include PPM) with no real documentation as to how those inputs interact (or counteract) with each other. 

This I understand, as you wouldn’t expect SI to reveal all about the match engine so people can start to try and exploit it. 

I’m just very interested in trying to find out what it actually is that makes particular tactics work as well as they do (I’ve got a PhD in engineering that focussed on writing numerical simulation software so I’m intrigued by the ME.)

Anyway, enough polluting this thread, thanks to Knap for creating excellent tactics that act as good test benches for probing how the ME is implemented. 

Also thanks to Fribbe for some insightful posts, please consider creating a new thread elsewhere that I’d be interested in contributing to. I’m bored of FM in the traditional sense of playing with a team and buying players etc. so want to start probing deeper into the tactical side!

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3 hours ago, eflakbogdanbeyi said:

Does Beowulf 19.2 (DLF + AF) version still working?

Just got promoted to the Scottish prem with this tactic so it still does work.

Although I have now changed to the 4420 for the new season and it seems to be going well.

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20 minutes ago, eencae said:

Also thanks to Fribbe for some insightful posts, please consider creating a new thread elsewhere that I’d be interested in contributing to. I’m bored of FM in the traditional sense of playing with a team and buying players etc. so want to start probing deeper into the tactical side!

I did open a thread about the passing conundrum, got an answer from a mod.

 

 

Edited by Fribbe

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The slider system worked very well and was easy to understand, rather than trying to obscure what is underneath.

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