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Armistice

Not many through balls in FM19 beta?

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6 hours ago, XaW said:

Yes, it's a counter, but still a through ball....

I saw a one-two although can see why it could be seen as a through-ball.

I always thought that a through-ball had tpo have been played through something ie: the defence. So anything over head height is a ball over the top. The same pass, at knee-height would be a through ball.

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2 hours ago, Preveza said:

At the end of the day, I say we are all lucky bastards to have the developers of the game we love so dearly be so transparent and open,  and AVAILABLE via forums. They all work tirelessly to improve the game and I’m certain they all want the game to improve and become more and more like true football, and on top of that, they work around the clock to respond daily to bug posts and questions from the public. The way I see people sometimes attack the devs is disappointing. I’m not perfect and I’ve provided criticism (maybe too harsh on the rare occasion) but at the end of the day I truly appreciate the game still being improved yearly, and of course the devs being so available to respond to our feedback. You do know they can stop answering all our questions and just ask for bug reports via a form etc. just my two cents. 

Urmmm... who is attacking the devs? I think we can all agree that they are doing a tremendous job, especially with this year's FM which imo can be the best FM in many years, but writing about a specific issue some people encounter is not attacking anyone, we're actually helping them identify things that can hopefully be fixed.

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8 hours ago, IMT said:

10 of my 84 goals have been from through balls, which is the 4th highest type for me, so that I would say I score an average amount of my goals from through balls which seems about right.

Without even knowing your tactics I bet your cross assists are the highest form of assists. 

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Urmmm... who is attacking the devs? I think we can all agree that they are doing a tremendous job, especially with this year's FM which imo can be the best FM in many years, but writing about a specific issue some people encounter is not attacking anyone, we're actually helping them identify things that can hopefully be fixed. 

I wasn't talking about this thread specifically; moreso overall over time in various threads. It has happened is all I was trying to say

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I don't even know why there is even a debate,there are almost zero through balls in this version.Why can't this just be accepted and attempted at sorting out.

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4 minutes ago, axehan1 said:

I don't even know why there is even a debate,there are almost zero through balls in this version.Why can't this just be accepted and attempted at sorting out.

My number of goals from through balls and from crosses were virtually identical in my first season at Fulham.

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ok so what instructions do you give in order to get through balls?We both play the same game and yet I can't remember the last time I scored a goal because of a through ball.

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1 hour ago, Preveza said:

I wasn't talking about this thread specifically; moreso overall over time in various threads. It has happened is all I was trying to say

So why bring it here, then?

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watch ai teams playing 433 and you will see most of the goals come from wings, ai plays with wingers instead of inside forwards in 433. looks like ai is awere there are no through balls in fm19!! :D

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On 22/10/2018 at 17:38, themadsheep2001 said:

I'd argue it needs a bit of a tweak, but not by much, because these passes are difficult, and should remain so

The problem isn't that they aren't coming off, it's that they aren't being attempted. 

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I think you guys are focusing too much on the assist numbers. Whether or not the striker finishes the chance is pretty irrelevant. I also don't think number of crosses is important as FM clearly defines them differently.

The issue here is that central players are too reluctant to play in the striker. They're much more likely to dribble themselves or ping out wide, or just play it among themselves. 

I play a direct, high tempo system with pass into space. My 3 CMs and 2 STs spend a lot of time playing short passes to feet almost themselves before one pings it out wide for a cross. They rarely make an effort to slip someone through. 

There's a lengthy thread about it over in the match engine bugs forum and SI have said they're working on it. 

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issue is that ai plays with wingers instead of IF (in 433), there are games with up to 60 crosses. the problem here is that games look completly unrealistic in otherwise really solid me. every ai enter into final third ends with cross. fm17? i find it much worse. i don't know why ai plays the likes of Salah, Hazard as wingers...

 

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56 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

I also don't think number of crosses is important as FM clearly defines them differently.

come on cross is a cross, from 100 crosses there are not many borderline between cutback, pass or cross. in fm when player is instructed to do somethong Often he does exactly that.

when a team has 4 players instructed to cross often then they do exactly that and if such team is of good quality they will be able to put totally unrealistic amonut of crosses into box, no metter their jumping ability, situation in the box (packed defense?), better options (maybe one twos?) etc. such scenario leads to completly unrealistic looking games when teams can score half of their goals from crosses and corners (which are again too many because of too many crosses in the first place), while irl goals from crosses are somewhere between 10 to 20%.

Edited by Mitja

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5 minutes ago, Mitja said:

cross is a cross, from 100 crosses there are not many borderline between cutback, pass or cross. in fm when player is instructed to do somethong Often he does exactly that.

Square balls from out wide are considered crossed in FM but aren't in real life. As are cutbacks.

Regardless, the issue of central players pinging it wide rather than trying a through ball is known and being worked on. 

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3 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Square balls from out wide are considered crossed in FM but aren't in real life. As are cutbacks.

are you sure about that, isnt a square ball from out wide definition of cross?

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wingers should only be used in counter attacking tactics and all fbs and wbs should have their crossing set to mixed. in current ME.

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What about hardcoded 'Run wide with ball' PI for wingbacks even in support and automatic duties. Is that necessary?

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On 25/10/2018 at 12:18, RocheBag said:

The issue here is that central players are too reluctant to play in the striker. They're much more likely to dribble themselves or ping out wide, or just play it among themselves. 

I play a direct, high tempo system with pass into space. My 3 CMs and 2 STs spend a lot of time playing short passes to feet almost themselves before one pings it out wide for a cross. They rarely make an effort to slip someone through. 

i went to check my old fm17 save and pass into space works like intended, almost perfect. team could actually come into final third with 2, 3 quality passes into space after transition. that's what modern football is all about and most teams play like that, now even Guardiola. in fm19 with max tempo, attacking mentality and pass into space you simply cannot achive such style of play. it's like passing into space is not posibile but keeping possession like Barca can play every sunday leuage team. 

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2 hours ago, XaW said:

@Armistice & @Weller1980

How about this one then? I dare you to make another excuse.

 

Yeah this looks better. But I am not sure what you’re trying to prove, just because you pulled it off once it doesn’t mean it’s working properly.

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@XaW You still on this? Your like a dog with a bone. It’s taken you a long time to show a decent through ball. I bet your cross assists are still in the 45% region?

I do however agree that was a beautiful through ball, I enjoyed watching it. But the simple fact is the vast majority of goals are scored from set pieces and crosses. Can you prove otherwise?

Personally I just want to create a tactic with intricate through balls, where through balls are my biggest form of assists, currently the ME won’t let me do that, as through balls like the one you just showed me don’t happen enough.

Now your obviously looking out for through balls, you must admit they don’t happen enough? By the way have you checked your analysis screen that shows how many forward passes your amc or inside forwards are making? Currently your lucky if a amc makes 6 forward passes in a whole game... this is with player instructions set at risky passes, quite simply amc is a useless position is the current ME. Please check it out, you will see 100s of sideways passes. Luckily SI have acknowledged this and apperently its been improved already, so hopefully in a few days time I/we can all enjoy more goals like the one you just showed me.

On a side note, have you got Kettering promoted yet? I’ve always wanted to have a Kettering save on the go.

Edited by Weller1980

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11 hours ago, XaW said:

@Armistice & @Weller1980

How about this one then? I dare you to make another excuse.

 

Nah... Not having that. It was a pass to feet and the striker was slow to react. :D

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I have to jump on this thread and agree, playing today and kind of hit me, I have a very talented AM with vision 17 and passing 16 and he always chooses the side ways pass rather than feeding my striker who has 18 pace. He becomes a wasted player. 

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On 27/10/2018 at 23:47, XaW said:

@Armistice & @Weller1980

How about this one then? I dare you to make another excuse.

 

You are playing at a lower level where there tends to be more space. When you are at a big club playing against teams that pack the defence space is obviously at a premium, which makes the midfielders ignoring through balls all the more frustrating

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Could it be a passing length issue? I have everyone on the shortest, and despite "tries killer balls often", "tries to break offside trap", high vision CMs and all the relevant team/player instructions my guys just never choose to play the through ball. Over 80% of my goals for and against end up coming from crosses. I don't think crossing is too OP, just that the player's aren't trying through passes. 

It's really not an issue of how assist stats are calculated but rather the reticence to try through balls when they're available. 

 

Screenshot_20181030-222503.png

Edited by pauly15

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32 minutes ago, pauly15 said:

Could it be a passing length issue? I have everyone on the shortest, and despite "tries killer balls often", "tries to break offside trap", high vision CMs and all the relevant team/player instructions my guys just never choose to play the through ball. Over 80% of my goals for and against end up coming from crosses. I don't think crossing is too OP, just that the player's aren't trying through passes. 

It's really not an issue of how assist stats are calculated but rather the reticence to try through balls when they're available. 

 

Screenshot_20181030-222503.png

I have passing on mixed and they still don't play through balls. I shouldn't have to play direct passing just to encourage more through balls.

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The only through-balls I see is my defenders ramming the ball to my forwards every time. But the rest are crossings from the flanks. 

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42 minutes ago, pats said:

I have passing on mixed and they still don't play through balls. I shouldn't have to play direct passing just to encourage more through balls.

Agreed.

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On 25/10/2018 at 01:05, Jack Joyce said:

We've made some tweaks to encourage more through balls, but it's worth noting that we were never massively over in terms of cross goals when you take those two points in to account.

I disagree. The calculation of the stats is not the issue.

It's what's happening on the pitch RE reticence to even try through passes. I hope the tweaks have been significant because I'm seeing very few through balls, if any at all.

Screenshot_20181030-222503~2.png

Edited by pauly15

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1 hour ago, pauly15 said:

Could it be a passing length issue? I have everyone on the shortest, and despite "tries killer balls often", "tries to break offside trap", high vision CMs and all the relevant team/player instructions my guys just never choose to play the through ball. Over 80% of my goals for and against end up coming from crosses. I don't think crossing is too OP, just that the player's aren't trying through passes. 

It's really not an issue of how assist stats are calculated but rather the reticence to try through balls when they're available. 

 

Screenshot_20181030-222503.png

Nope. I play on direct with pass into space and I don't get any through balls either.

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On 24/10/2018 at 11:35, Jack Joyce said:

Just to clear some things up here:

  1. Our crossing statistics include set pieces, which many stats suppliers don't.
  2. Our crossing statistics also include a lot of cutbacks, which many stats suppliers don't.

We've made some tweaks to encourage more through balls, but it's worth noting that we were never massively over in terms of cross goals when you take those two points in to account.

I hope the tweaks are significant. I'm not seeing many through balls at all. I saw more through balls in the City/Tottenham game yesterday than I did in my entire first season of FM19.

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Do we have any idea when these fixes will be going live? Kind of depressing trying to play through the middle short passing game right now. 

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1 minute ago, Sticx said:

Do we have any idea when these fixes will be going live? Kind of depressing trying to play through the middle short passing game right now. 

For the full release. 

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1 hour ago, RocheBag said:

I saw more through balls in the City/Tottenham game yesterday than I did in my entire first season of FM19.

in el classico too. modern football is all about passing into space in transition phase. traditional wingers don't exist anymore.

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Il 24/10/2018 in 16:05 , Jack Joyce ha scritto:

Just to clear some things up here:

  1. Our crossing statistics include set pieces, which many stats suppliers don't.
  2. Our crossing statistics also include a lot of cutbacks, which many stats suppliers don't.

We've made some tweaks to encourage more through balls, but it's worth noting that we were never massively over in terms of cross goals when you take those two points in to account.

1

is it possible that you concentrate on quantitative analysis more than on qualitative? numbers are all fine and good but simply looking at numbers one might not really see the real issue. when scouting opposition (and I do it as a full time job) I never look at numbers of crosses/interceptions/whatever first. always analyze how and why certain things happen. 

in quantitative terms, you can be spot on regarding numbers of goals being scored from crosses (would like to know how you know that since stats in ME defines crosses quite differently than majority of real stats providers), but still have way too many crosses if the finishing of those isn't in line with real numbers.

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I stopped playing the beta because I wasn’t enjoying seeing the same goals over and over. I really hope a real change has been made for this Friday, or I can see myself just not playing this year.

Which would be a massive shame as I think there is so much potential here.

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On 24/10/2018 at 17:05, Jack Joyce said:

Just to clear some things up here:

  1. Our crossing statistics include set pieces, which many stats suppliers don't.
  2. Our crossing statistics also include a lot of cutbacks, which many stats suppliers don't.

We've made some tweaks to encourage more through balls, but it's worth noting that we were never massively over in terms of cross goals when you take those two points in to account.

I think people are banging their heads against the wall when they mention these statistics to prove their point. I have watched back most of the goals I scored, then I have watched most of the top teams goals and they follow the same pattern. It is a cross that is being converted to goals. I would have loved to see more cutbacks but it’s not the case. I urge everyone to just stop looking at statistics and take a brief look at the goals scored in the saves. That’s all what you need to see.

 

As for set-pieces I assume corners are not classed as crosses aswell since it has its own category, right?

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27 minutes ago, Armistice said:

As for set-pieces I assume corners are not classed as crosses aswell since it has its own category, right?

Even if they are counted as crosses, unless people are getting 50 corners a game then there are still way too many crosses.

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9 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Even if they are counted as crosses, unless people are getting 50 corners a game then there are still way too many crosses.

Oh well I thought Jack talked about Assist type like here.

 

708866d1416222800-recreating-sir-alex-fe

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At first glance, looks more balanced based on my first few games after patching:

image.thumb.png.6a7a05a55a9b2e0095e639772cb5b6b9.pngimage.thumb.png.83b94f9085f8932388b5b98cc4b6cce1.png

 

image.thumb.png.21ad732d53ec384474cc21cef950468b.png

 

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Below is a screenshot of assists prior to 19.1 after 10 Prem games

image.thumb.png.73a50c8133c5b823d510142f5dca04e0.png

Below is a screenshot with the new 19.1 ME after 10 Prem games

image.thumb.png.37e760bd617f941c5f7498fac3d15c92.png

The ME is MUCH better balanced, and now somewhat more enjoyable. However.... Its still early to make a final judgment but it seems SI listened to us. Thanks SI and thanks @Jack Joyce who listened and provided us with feedback etc.

My early observations of the ME are, cross assists do seem slightly too high, and I've watched quite a lot of AI games. My tactic tries to encourage through balls  yet, I still have 9 assists from crosses with is my highest assist contribution. I do now see through balls in the ME which is brilliant but, my strikers are missing quite a lot of 1 on ones again its too early to say for sure if this is a problem. There are still too many goals from set pieces, already after 15ish games including cup games I have 5 assists from corners. AMC are now playing more forward and key passes so this is also an improvement! Overall a lot better but I think a few more adjustments are necessary.

Oh and a little side note, the ME does seem too easy, I'm winning most games really easy with 30 plus shots, but now the assists seem better balanced im going to start my proper games with Northampton Town which should be a harder experience.

 

Edited by Weller1980

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49 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Below is a screenshot of assists prior to 19.1 after 10 Prem games

image.thumb.png.73a50c8133c5b823d510142f5dca04e0.png

Below is a screenshot with the new 19.1 ME after 10 Prem games

image.thumb.png.37e760bd617f941c5f7498fac3d15c92.png

The ME is MUCH better balanced, and now somewhat more enjoyable. However.... Its still early to make a final judgment but it seems SI listened to us. Thanks SI and thanks @Jack Joyce who listened and provided us with feedback etc.

My early observations of the ME are, cross assists do seem slightly too high, and I've watched quite a lot of AI games. My tactic tries to encourage through balls  yet, I still have 9 assists from crosses with is my highest assist contribution. I do now see through balls in the ME which is brilliant but, my strikers are missing quite a lot of 1 on ones again its too early to say for sure if this is a problem. There are still too many goals from set pieces, already after 15ish games including cup games I have 5 assists from corners. AMC are now playing more forward and key passes so this is also an improvement! Overall a lot better but I think a few more adjustments are necessary.

Oh and a little side note, the ME does seem too easy, I'm winning most games really easy with 30 plus shots, but now the assists seem better balanced im going to start my proper games with Northampton Town which should be a harder experience.

 

Yeah I think goals from set-pieces still need tweaking, I ran a quick test save to see how the goals are scored by the AI and noticed there were quite a few from setpieces or rebounds. I do believe that the ME has gotten more balanced but at the same time I think we can't quite remove crosses from the game entirely, like Spain used to play. We have some hard coded roles that are basically crossing roles so no matter how you tweak your system (Work ball into box), they'll still cross. The only combination that could see crosses decreased to a good amount is the WB-S/CWB-S & IF/Raum/AP combination ( ofc in formations like 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 etc).

Edited by Armistice

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i also noticed a lot of goals are scored with set-pieces, corners and rebounds in ai vs ai games.  also too many yellow cards.

through balls have been improved a lot but have noticed diagonal long through ball is over-powered. it'd nice to see more mistakes when passing (into space) this would defenetly increase realism in midfield battle dynamics. in general i think attacking play is a little too good, like first touch, technique, off the ball.  

for example full backs are allways in perfect position they still have too much space and eventhough wide forwards positioning is improved i think they should be more effective in cutting off full-backs passing lanes even with attack duty. it should be their main defensive task. currently support duty helps a little too much centrally. it's the only logical way to decrease full-backs' space and crossing attempts.

switching flanks looks too easy at the moment (more passing mistakes, bad first touch, more outs etc), it's the riskiest ball in football. better defending of wide area could lead then to more transitions and goals scoring oportunities. playing with highest d-line settings should be far more risky and reserved for top teams. 

 

Edited by Mitja

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4 hours ago, Armistice said:

The only combination that could see crosses decreased to a good amount is the WB-S/CWB-S & IF/Raum/AP combination ( ofc in formations like 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1 etc).

If your aim is not to score crosses, there are fullback roles which are much less concerned with getting into a crossing position than CWBs, and as an added bonus they defend properly too...

Edited by enigmatic

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