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Armistice

Not many through balls in FM19 beta?

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I’m just wondering if I’m seeing things or it’s a more common theme, so far I’ve played 14 Premier League games but haven’t seen many defence splitting passes. I have watched AI v AI games aswell to make sure it’s not only me but most of the teams score through corners (set pieces in general), long shots (thank God these are hitting the target more often than in FM18), crosses or penalties (a lot of them, but I understand this is some sort of a common thing in people’s saves). A different way to score is balls over the top but that happens only when there’s a high defensive line so yeah, what do you people think? I’m not having a dig or anything, just wondering if it’s a common theme.

Edited by Armistice

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I'm actually very pleased with the variance of goals so far in the Beta. I've seen freekicks (direct and indirect), corners, long shots, through balls, route one, crosses, and much more. Of course, the manner of goals depends a lot on the tactics of both teams, but so far it seems good to me.

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12 minutes ago, XaW said:

I'm actually very pleased with the variance of goals so far in the Beta. I've seen freekicks (direct and indirect), corners, long shots, through balls, route one, crosses, and much more. Of course, the manner of goals depends a lot on the tactics of both teams, but so far it seems good to me.

Mind sharing a few of those goals highlights, mate?

Edited by Armistice

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Well I think the spread of assists needs some balaceing and hopefully before release in two weeks. I Would encourage players to check their assist analysis screen and you should see a lack of through ball assists.

I see a massive bias towards crosses and set pieces, in my saved games crosses and set pieces contribute easily to over 50% to 60% of assists, now the bias of goals depends on tactics and I have tried various tactics such as gegenpress, tiki tala, and counter and one commen theme which is quite evident is a lack of through balls which split the defence. Even when watching the alpha videos I don’t recall many through ball assists.

intially I thought cross assists were too high but the more soak tests I’ve ran the more I see a lack of through balls, for me the assist pattern is very predictable, either crosses, set pieces or goals scored from throw ins, not many defence splitting through balls.

A community memeber called @Mensell76 has indentified and shown really good examples of amc playmakers refusing to play risky forward passes and clearly favouring to play the ball out wide in turn perhaps increasing cross assists slightly and reducing through ball assists. With the amc not playing risky forward passes were not seeing enough through balls, this is quite clear in my testing. This example can be seen in our bug thread named too many cross assists.

Edited by Weller1980

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28 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Mind sharing a few of those goals highlights, mate?

Will do, I'm at work now, so I'll upload a few when I get back home.

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2 minutes ago, XaW said:

Will do, I'm at work now, so I'll upload a few when I get back home.

@XaW I would be interested in seeing your assist screen and tactic screen if you have time to post it, I really want a tactic which is based on through balls.

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1 minute ago, Weller1980 said:

@XaW I would be interested in seeing your assist screen and tactic screen if you have time to post it, I really want a tactic which is based on through balls.

Then my tactic isn't for you, since I've based it around wingers. I haven't looked at that screen, but will do so when I get back home.

My current tactic is very much based on the same thing I did in FM17 and FM18, and it seems to be working still. It was based on a "can I replicate Klopp"-idea, but it still works quite good. It does require tinkering still to work as I want it though.

If I haven't posted it by tomorrow, then tag me, since I most likely forgot it!

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30 minutes ago, improvox said:

Where do I find the assist screen? 

Tactics screen, analysis, goals, assists

Edited by Weller1980

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2 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Tactics screen, analysis, goals, assists

Cheers :thup:

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27 minutes ago, weezy3313 said:

Willing to bet it depends on the system you play (as it should).. here is mine:

 

1294907198_ManUStats.thumb.PNG.ea85230dd28ef398273096893af18446.PNG

What system do use? I really struggle getting through balls.

Edited by Weller1980

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18 minutes ago, weezy3313 said:

Willing to bet it depends on the system you play (as it should).. here is mine:

 

1294907198_ManUStats.thumb.PNG.ea85230dd28ef398273096893af18446.PNG

Interesting indeed. Care to elaborate on your tactics ? 

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39 minutes ago, wicksyFM said:

This is mine. Im surprised at how many are crosses actually. Are cutbacks considered a cross. 

I think I read somewhere that just about all "sideways passes" from wider position are considered crosses.

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3 minutes ago, XaW said:

I think I read somewhere that just about all "sideways passes" from wider position are considered crosses.

For me a cross is a long pass from a wide area into the middle of the box, a short sideways pass should not be considered a cross, this gives an inaccurate account of assists.

what does the ME consider to be a square ball?

Edited by Weller1980

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3 minutes ago, XaW said:

I think I read somewhere that just about all "sideways passes" from wider position are considered crosses.

I remember a fair few goals looked alot more like cutbacks to me. 100% some of them have been proper crosses but not 30 of them

Edited by wicksyFM

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Yeah, I'm uploading examples for @Armistice now, and found this:

It seems to be considered a "cross", but for me this is not a cross. It's a through ball that get's a bit too wide and then a square ball back with a shot to follow up. (I  have no idea what that screenshake in the video is though....)

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Here are a copy of my tactics... I use IF's so they are cutting inside.  Slow pace and methodical passing working the ball into the box.  Heavy squad rotation, due to lots of injuries.

1. Control Possession 80% of the time

2.  Tiki-Taka 20% of the time

1001489721_ManUTactics.thumb.PNG.7871ee26a41890a02c15025a42078d1a.PNG978831864_ManUTactics2.thumb.PNG.3bc3a5dc9c34464f50d323bd678e2c6d.PNG

 

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10 hours ago, Armistice said:

I’m just wondering if I’m seeing things or it’s a more common theme, so far I’ve played 14 Premier League games but haven’t seen many defence splitting passes. I have watched AI v AI games aswell to make sure it’s not only me but most of the teams score through corners (set pieces in general), long shots (thank God these are hitting the target more often than in FM18), crosses or penalties (a lot of them, but I understand this is some sort of a common thing in people’s saves). A different way to score is balls over the top but that happens only when there’s a high defensive line so yeah, what do you people think? I’m not having a dig or anything, just wondering if it’s a common theme.

Are you using pass into space. I am and I do get a fair few not always successful and even though I have shorter passing, I do still have long ones into space as well.

Edited by toffee71

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Here are some more examples @Armistice

 

(There seems to be something wrong with my uploads, the random players standing still in that video are not in there when I watch it, but you can see the play anyway)

(Aargh, they are multiplying! I'll post this as a bug, but try to see the play in here!)

Edited by XaW

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The first one whilst a very cool goal it's not a through ball...its played in front of the defence

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@XaW did you check your assist distribution?

Are Kettering in the vanarama north? I used to live near Kettering. I remember when Paul Gasgoine was their manager albeit for only a few games.

Edited by Weller1980

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3 hours ago, weezy3313 said:

Willing to bet it depends on the system you play (as it should).. here is mine:

 

1294907198_ManUStats.thumb.PNG.ea85230dd28ef398273096893af18446.PNG

It would be useful if this screen showed not just the quantity of attempts, but also the attempts/conversion ratio.

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17 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

@XaW did you check your assist distribution?

Are Kettering in the vanarama south? I used to live near Kettering. I remember when Paul Gasgoine was their manager albeit for only a few games.

image.thumb.png.8bae84cd52c1751c97a3e6087391c712.png

Kettering starts below Vanarama regionals, but I holidayed a year to take over a lower league club, and I chose Kettering.

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12 hours ago, XaW said:

I'm actually very pleased with the variance of goals so far in the Beta. I've seen freekicks (direct and indirect), corners, long shots, through balls, route one, crosses, and much more. Of course, the manner of goals depends a lot on the tactics of both teams, but so far it seems good to me.

I'm pleased to see a few from convincing-looking mistimed defensive clearances/blocks/tackles and unfortunate bounces.

And the cross goals are all different: floaty ones, cutbacks, byline crosses, slid sideways balls etc, not the FM16 back post bonanza

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5 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I’m just curious to see your assist spread. can you screen grab the assists screen

image.thumb.png.13c404c9754a7c3d40e56d8c1780797b.png

This one?

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@XaW Yea thanks, so 42% of your assists are from crosses, 58% of assists are from crosses and corners. 24% from through balls. The cross and corners seem a tad too high if compared to real life stats, but to be fair you are seeing enough variety.

Edited by Weller1980

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1 minute ago, Weller1980 said:

@XaW Yea thanks, so 42% of your assists are from crosses, 58% of assists are from crosses and corners. 24% from through balls. The cross and corners seem a tad too high if compared to real life stats. 

Yeah, but as I stated over here cut backs and square balls are counted as crosses. And I have a tactic that kind of relies on crosses and focuses on wide play. So for me the realism is there. What are the real life stats for all wide passes and crosses though? Do you have it available?

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2 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, but as I stated over here cut backs and square balls are counted as crosses. And I have a tactic that kind of relies on crosses and focuses on wide play. So for me the realism is there. What are the real life stats for all wide passes and crosses though? Do you have it available?

The thing is your side is not probably one of the top in the league (might be wrong though) so the teams you're facing are not defending as narrow as possible so through balls are easier to be played.

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Just now, Armistice said:

The thing is your side is not probably one of the top in the league (might be wrong though) so the teams you're facing are not defending as narrow as possible so through balls are easier to be played.

Could be, but you asked for examples and I provided them. The match engine is the same though, so in theory is should handle the same with better players on both sides, but I don't know, since I haven't played at that level. In a while, when I (hopefully) get promoted I will find out.

Looking at my games as a whole and the goals in particular, I'd say the rate of crosses is within what I would expect based on my tactical approach.

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Also where @XaW concedes from matters too. It appears about a third from out wide, a third from central passes and a third from long balls (most of which were probably through balls, albeit pretty basic ones)

Of course, it's possible that you're right about AMCs being reluctant to play clever through passes from higher up the pitch (haven't seen a lot of those, although my AMC isn't asked to deliver them), but that's a much more difficult thing to assess because it depends heavily on their vision and execution skill and opposition tactics. 

If you've got a good side and gegenpressing tactic that means you're usually playing around the opposition penalty area, you probably shouldn't score many that way. Bet more assists against Andorra come from crosses than clever through balls, and not because sides don't have the basic attributes to unlock an Andorran defence if they allowed Andorra to get out more...

 

Edited by enigmatic

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@XaW

whoscored.com is a good statistical website.

i think cross assist avg is around 25% to 30%

But, to be fair you do have an ok assist spread, better than mine anyway.

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

Also where @XaW concedes from matters too. It appears about a third from out wide, a third from central passes and a third from long balls (most of which were probably through balls)

Of course, it's possible that you're right about AMCs being reluctant to play clever through passes from higher up the pitch (haven't seen a lot of those, although my AMC isn't asked to deliver them), but that's a much more difficult thing to assess because it depends heavily on their vision and execution skill and opposition tactics. 

If you've got a good side and gegenpressing tactic that means you're usually playing around the opposition penalty area, you probably shouldn't score many that way. Bet more assists against Andorra come from crosses than clever through balls, and not because sides don't have the basic attributes to unlock an Andorran defence if they allowed Andorra to get out more...

A very good point. I don't play with an AMC, but my AML is an AP-S and told to drift narrower while the left wing back provides the width, so the AML almost works as a AMC. Now, one of the issues in my current squad is that I don't have any good wide playmakers, so I had to use a regular winger in that position at the moment, but even does get a goal or an assists somewhere between every other game and every third. So not that poor, I'd say.

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4 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

@XaW

whoscored.com is a good statistical website.

i think cross assist avg is around 25% to 30%

But, to be fair you do have an ok assist spread, better than mine anyway.

image.thumb.png.cbd49a853df187abb1129645d43aa73b.png

This is the assists from whoscored.com in the Premier League last season. The problem here is that there is a HUGE "Other" category. Since this doesn't exists in FM all those will be taken out of this small sample test. In addition to this the "Total" column doesn't sum all the other types, so I don't quite know what it's based on, but I'll try to work with it I'll only go through the top 6 teams, since I can't be bothered to do more:

Man City - 18/35 - 51.43% scored from crosses
Liverpool - 11/19 - 57.89% scored from crosses
Man Utd - 14/23 - 60.87% scored from crosses
Tottenham - 14/30 - 46.67% scored from crosses
Chelsea - 17/25 - 68% scored from crosses
Arsenal - 11/25 - 44% scored from crosses

(Out of known types of assists, note that I have NOT included corners in the crossing stats, even though you did so, so the number should be even higher had I done so)

Remember, this is your source, I'm not so sure I would trust these stats...

Of course with "Other" removed, the number would be high anyway, but take a look at "Throughball"; Not one club has a higher number of throughballs than crosses. So in effect that means IF you were able to do this, THAT would be considered a bug and should be rectified to make MORE crosses in those instances.

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I didn't scout my opponents unfortunately for more details, but saw this brief report in my inbox.

 

CReSs61.png

 

42pD49m.png

 

As you can see, primary source of assists on both situations (scored & conceded) are crosses.

 

 

I think real life stats are somewhat misleading, I support Spurs and watch their games, this season's been a bit of a mess in terms of how we play, but last season and the season before we have scored a fair from crosses but most of the goals came from passes inside the box, through balls, placed shots inside/outside the box, etc.

 

You can watch a video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J-2IUV7WQ0

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A think you guys need to reconsider what you think is a cross. In FM a cross can be a corner, a cutback from outwide or in the 18 yard box and your usual cross. 

That said, City scored most of their goals last season by low cross into the 7 yard box for the striker/next winger, 2nd was through passes through the middle. 

When you use formations that have wingers expect a high amount of crosses(FM type crosses) 

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23 minutes ago, XaW said:

image.thumb.png.cbd49a853df187abb1129645d43aa73b.png

This is the assists from whoscored.com in the Premier League last season. The problem here is that there is a HUGE "Other" category. Since this doesn't exists in FM all those will be taken out of this small sample test. In addition to this the "Total" column doesn't sum all the other types, so I don't quite know what it's based on, but I'll try to work with it I'll only go through the top 6 teams, since I can't be bothered to do more:

Man City - 18/35 - 51.43% scored from crosses
Liverpool - 11/19 - 57.89% scored from crosses
Man Utd - 14/23 - 60.87% scored from crosses
Tottenham - 14/30 - 46.67% scored from crosses
Chelsea - 17/25 - 68% scored from crosses
Arsenal - 11/25 - 44% scored from crosses

(Out of known types of assists, note that I have NOT included corners in the crossing stats, even though you did so, so the number should be even higher had I done so)

Remember, this is your source, I'm not so sure I would trust these stats...

Of course with "Other" removed, the number would be high anyway, but take a look at "Throughball"; Not one club has a higher number of throughballs than crosses. So in effect that means IF you were able to do this, THAT would be considered a bug and should be rectified to make MORE crosses in those instances.

no no you can't take ''other'' out, we can only talk how many of ''other'' would be crosses in FM. it's:

Man City 18/106 - 16,9%

Liv            11/84 - 13,1%

Man U     14/68 - 20,6%

Tott          14/74 - 18,9%

what about goals from corners? :D

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7 minutes ago, Mitja said:

no no you can't take ''other'' out, we can only talk how many of ''other'' would be crosses in FM. it's:

Man City 18/106 - 16,9%

Liv            11/84 - 13,1%

Man U     14/68 - 20,6%

Tott          14/74 - 18,9%

what about goals from corners? :D

Of course I can take it out, since it's undefined and that is not something that's comparable in FM. I also did state that my percentage were based on "Known assist type".

Or, what I would rather do, is declare whoscored.com a poor source. If either you or @Weller1980 would come up with a better source (seeing as he made the claim the stats are wrong, the burden of proof lies there), then I would be happy to take a look.

Edited by XaW

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4 hours ago, Weller1980 said:

For me a cross is a long pass from a wide area into the middle of the box, a short sideways pass should not be considered a cross, this gives an inaccurate account of assists.

what does the ME consider to be a square ball?

I need to look at this again in FM19, but in FM18 it counted a lot of these as crosses

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6 minutes ago, XaW said:

Of course I can take it out, since it's undefined and that is not something that's comparable in FM. 

 

no you can't. you have factor which is known (in FM and whoscored), number of goals from crosses and you divide it with all goals and that's it. we could debate what would FM consider '''cross'' from ''other'' category in whoscored. 

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Just now, Mitja said:

no you can't. you have factor which is known (in FM and whoscored), number of goals from crosses and you divide it with all goals and that's it. we could debate what would FM consider '''cross'' from ''other'' category in whoscored. 

Well, I did note that my percentage is from KNOWN assist types... But I would still say that whoscored are unreliable as proof in this claim, with the overwhelming amount of "unknowns" the margin of error are far to big to take it seriously.

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2 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, I did note that my percentage is from KNOWN assist types... But I would still say that whoscored are unreliable as proof in this claim, with the overwhelming amount of "unknowns" the margin of error are far to big to take it seriously.

Curious to see where they get it from, as I'm sitting on my opta login now and cannot find goals from crosses as a statistic. might need more calculating via other stats

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Of course you need to know what the "other" category is before you can take accurate stats, mad to argue otherwise

among other things, maybe goals being scored not from crosses? :)

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37 minutes ago, XaW said:

image.thumb.png.cbd49a853df187abb1129645d43aa73b.png

This is the assists from whoscored.com in the Premier League last season. The problem here is that there is a HUGE "Other" category. Since this doesn't exists in FM all those will be taken out of this small sample test. In addition to this the "Total" column doesn't sum all the other types, so I don't quite know what it's based on, but I'll try to work with it I'll only go through the top 6 teams, since I can't be bothered to do more:

Man City - 18/35 - 51.43% scored from crosses
Liverpool - 11/19 - 57.89% scored from crosses
Man Utd - 14/23 - 60.87% scored from crosses
Tottenham - 14/30 - 46.67% scored from crosses
Chelsea - 17/25 - 68% scored from crosses
Arsenal - 11/25 - 44% scored from crosses

(Out of known types of assists, note that I have NOT included corners in the crossing stats, even though you did so, so the number should be even higher had I done so)

Remember, this is your source, I'm not so sure I would trust these stats...

Of course with "Other" removed, the number would be high anyway, but take a look at "Throughball"; Not one club has a higher number of throughballs than crosses. So in effect that means IF you were able to do this, THAT would be considered a bug and should be rectified to make MORE crosses in those instances.

this is drastically misrepresenting the real world situation of assists...why would you exclude the other stats from the category...that's nonsensical. You're basically trying to prove a point by misrepresenting information.

Firstly on above...assist account for 71% of goals scored that year. 

Secondly, other would include short passes, medium passes and probably some square balls and cutbacks and whatever else

So taking top 6 teams that year and how many goals were scored from open play crosses then the average goals scored was just 19% of their overall goals total. So THATs the number you should be talking about in relation to numbers of goals from crosses...that exercise you've done above is tremendously misleading and frankly a nothing exercise in trying to identify whats happening from an analytical point of  view...sure the way you do it...why not leave out every other category bar crosses and conclude 100% of goals are from crosses :)

 

The categories above are specific categories which enable them to capture this data under how they are defined so it's accurate to quote them based on their definition...crosses is specific so quote stats based on crosses as overall total of goals scored NOT based on excluding information.

Whoscored define through balls quite narrowly so other threaded passes wouldn't fall under that category where FM isn't as narrow

Through Ball
- An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)
 

You can consign a post like that picking some numbers and excluding others to the garbage bin where it belongs...that's the kind of analysis donald trump would come up with :)

 

7 minutes ago, XaW said:

Or, what I would rather do, is declare whoscored.com a poor source. If either you or @Weller1980 would come up with a better source (seeing as he made the claim the stats are wrong, the burden of proof lies there), then I would be happy to take a look.

Wow...just saw this since typing...are you donald trump...rejecting real world information to try and prove a point...so essentially you're rejecting real world information and holding up a computer simulation as what is right...reality issues much !?!?!?!!!! :lol:

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