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It's called mentoring now and is done by creating units. Check this out 

 

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1 hour ago, Cleon said:

It's called mentoring now and is done by creating units. Check this out 

 

It is a bit vague to be honest.

How much and what will be affected. Will the mental stats from my oldest will be spread, will low determined old player will affect also the other old player who is mentoring.
Whos player traits it will take into account or this is not possible anymore.

The idea is very good, but there should be a bit more specifics in there. 

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45 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The player doesn't need specifics any longer and needs to move away from what they're used to previously. Before it was more exploitable because users were able to know what the magic numbers were for optimal personalities and player development. The old system was all about figuring out the number values and you couldn't fail. FM19 is more realistic and a lot slower in this regard. There is also no magic numbers anymore so to speak.

Once the game is officially released on the 2nd. There will be a more detailed training guide that offers more specific insights but people need to move away from thinking about training in a number value or wanting to know by 'how much'. As the game doesn't work the same any longer. 

I like that!

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8 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

We're trying to avoid FM becoming an exercise in painting by numbers, at which point it ceases to really be a game.

Hopefully we've provided enough information for you to get started, how you progress from there is personal and half the fun!

Please do ask any questions that you may have, but I reserve the right to be vague if necessary :)

correct me if I'm wrong, but now this seems more connected to dynamics so more influential players with a higher status in the locker room will have more impact as mentors regardless of age? Makes sense and also makes tutoring less of an exploit, though I'm not sure how exactly can I (try to) pass the desired personality and PPM's from a player to another now, which is certainly more realistic though it does take away a lot from the purpose of tutoring in FM.

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I'm just gonna put some influential senior players together with youngsters in similar positions and see what happens :thup:

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I for one welcome this change, but what I'm happiest about is the developer's attitude towards it.

I was worried a bit after seeing the tactics presets that the game was going to go the route of telling players how to play it. There's a thin line between too much and too little info in gaming.

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Also, one of the loading tooltips says that mentoring has reduced effects once the player is over 24.

If this is accurate, and taking influence into account, it probably means we shouldn't get worried our model citizen captain in his thirties will be affected whatsoever by being around two unprofessional youngsters still in their teens.

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12 minutes ago, samwilzrhcp said:

Does it matter if player positions don’t match up?  My keeper is my most senior player at the club.

I'm gonna say, no? I imagine that Buffon had various players under control and gave them feedback despite being a GK? e.g. Pogba?

It is probably better to have similar positions for technical learning but if you want to make sure the guy develops a good personality let the old grumpy GK have a go at him. 

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Playing position is a factor, but not a rule. Similar to age.

It is better to have similarly positioned players working together, but a particularly influential pro can overcome this.

Obviously for the learning of Player Traits (PPMs), you're more likely to want similar positions working together.

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2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

We're trying to avoid FM becoming an exercise in painting by numbers, at which point it ceases to really be a game.

Hopefully we've provided enough information for you to get started, how you progress from there is personal and half the fun!

Please do ask any questions that you may have, but I reserve the right to be vague if necessary :)

Hmmm, can this be the for future and dynamic potential. One can hope :)

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6 minutes ago, saihtam said:

Hmmm, can this be the for future and dynamic potential. One can hope :)

Dynamic potential isn't really a thing.

Potential is a player's genetic maximum. You can give me all the training and mentoring you like, but I'm never gonna be as good at football as Messi, and that is down to genetics.

The dynamic part is how close to his potential a player can get.

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I'm curious to see how mentoring plays out with PPMs though.

My guess is that the chance to gain one is highly dependent on the suitability of said PPM for the position and the attributes profile of the player.

I think was the case in FM18 as well, to an extent. I used Hamit Altintop as a tutor several times, every time with the option to pass PPMs as well. Now, he has four PPMs in total, of which two are related to taking free kicks. Now, out of all the instances I've used him, he either passed both, just one or none of the outfield PPMs, but never the free kick ones. Sure, the sample size is small, but I'm thinking this was because none of the tutees was particularly good at taking free kicks.

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3 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Dynamic potential isn't really a thing.

Potential is a player's genetic maximum. You can give me all the training and mentoring you like, but I'm never gonna be as good at football as Messi, and that is down to genetics.

The dynamic part is how close to his potential a player can get.

11 minutes ago, saihtam said:

Hmmm, can this be the for future and dynamic potential. One can hope :)

Fixed potential is never a problem unless you take a peek at it.

The ingame perception of said potential more dynamic than it ever was in FM.

It's not that Vardy's potential increased in his late 20s, he's always had this potential, just that the footballing world did not perceive it accurately.

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8 minutes ago, SD said:

I'm curious to see how mentoring plays out with PPMs though.

My guess is that the chance to gain one is highly dependent on the suitability of said PPM for the position and the attributes profile of the player.

I think was the case in FM18 as well, to an extent. I used Hamit Altintop as a tutor several times, every time with the option to pass PPMs as well. Now, he has four PPMs in total, of which two are related to taking free kicks. Now, out of all the instances I've used him, he either passed both, just one or none of the outfield PPMs, but never the free kick ones. Sure, the sample size is small, but I'm thinking this was because none of the tutees was particularly good at taking free kicks.

That would make a lot of sense... ;)

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36 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

That would make a lot of sense... ;)

I'm going to use this opportunity to pick your brain a bit more, if you don't mind.

Is there a way I've missed to include in the mentoring groups players from the reserves or youth squads?

It doesn't seem to be possible, which is not necessarily a bad thing, as it makes the decision to promote a young player to the first team a lot more meaningful.

Speaking of which, does the ability of the rest of the players in the squad get factored in a player's progression in any way? I know team reputation does, which is a good proxy for player ability,  but what I'm trying to gauge is how impactful is moving to train with the first team. Or does the game use the reputation of each squad individually.

In this case, is there any drawback to just moving all your reserves players to the first team? 

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5 minutes ago, SD said:

I'm going to use this opportunity to pick your brain a bit more, if you don't mind.

Is there a way I've missed to include in the mentoring groups players from the reserves or youth squads?

It doesn't seem to be possible, which is not necessarily a bad thing, as it makes the decision to promote a young player to the first team a lot more meaningful.

Only players from the same squad can mentor one another, so yes need to promote that prospect to mentor him.

6 minutes ago, SD said:

Speaking of which, does the ability of the rest of the players in the squad get factored in a player's progression in any way? I know team reputation does, which is a good proxy for player ability,  but what I'm trying to gauge is how impactful is moving to train with the first team. Or does the game use the reputation of each squad individually.

In this case, is there any drawback to just moving all your reserves players to the first team? 

From a training point of view I definitely would not move all your reserves to the senior team, it'll up your coaches workload far too much.

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1 minute ago, Seb Wassell said:

From a training point of view I definitely would not move all your reserves to the senior team, it'll up your coaches workload far too much.

In the case of English teams, the first team and reserves are training together so I don't think it will make a difference workload-wise.

The only drawback I can think of is possibly disrupting first team social groups and dynamics.

It still not something I would do myself, I have a house rule against anything I deem too "gamey", but I'd be a bit disappointed if the optimal way to play would be to move all your reserve players to the first team or transferring a bunch of old players solely for tutoring purposes was still a thing.

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30 minutes ago, SD said:

It still not something I would do myself, I have a house rule against anything I deem too "gamey", but I'd be a bit disappointed if the optimal way to play would be to move all your reserve players to the first team or transferring a bunch of old players solely for tutoring purposes was still a thing.

 

2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Yes indeed, Dynamics is a big factor in Mentoring.

You may also find some old players won't be particularly interested in mixing with the kids.

However, if you do find you can still game the system in this way, let Seb know.  The intention is to move away from these "short cuts" so if any still exist something can be done about it.

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17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

You may also find some old players won't be particularly interested in mixing with the kids.

However, if you do find you can still game the system in this way, let Seb know.  The intention is to move away from these "short cuts" so if any still exist something can be done about it.

Well, due to their age, leadership, reputation and still relatively higher ability, I'm thinking that it shouldn't be hard for a veteran player to gain highly influential or leader status in the reserves squad. Sure, the effect would be dampened as some of the young players would also have high social status, but it would still work for players newly promoted from the U18.

If it were up to me I'd leave PPM transfer down to training units and personality change to social groups, but that may cause uproar with the players. Nobody wants to be in the position where their star player is a poor role model that's ruining generation after generation of young players, but I think that is very much like real life. It may be just a rumor, but I read somewhere that one of the reasons Ronaldinho was sold to Milan was that his casual approach was having a bad influence on young Messi.

Edited by SD

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1 minute ago, SD said:

I'm thinking that it shouldn't be hard for a veteran player to gain highly influential or leader status in the reserves squad.

Perhaps.  But on the flip side would the veteran player want or like being in the Reserves squad / mixing with the kids?

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2 minutes ago, SD said:

If it were up to me I'd leave PPM transfer down to training units and personality change to social groups, but that may cause uproar with the players. Nobody wants to be in the position where their star player is a poor role model that's ruining generation after generation of young players, but I think that is very much like real life. It may be just a rumor, but I read somewhere that one of the reasons Ronaldinho was sold to Milan was that his casual approach was having a bad influence on young Messi.

Players that share a social group can still influence one another. Mentoring is not the only way that personalities change, it is simply the most focused.

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1 minute ago, Seb Wassell said:

Players that share a social group can still influence one another. Mentoring is not the only way that personalities change, it is simply the most focused.

I did notice the reports for some players said something about squad character having a positive influence, but I didn't know it was tied to social groups, thanks for clarifying that.

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Perhaps.  But on the flip side would the veteran player want or like being in the Reserves squad / mixing with the kids?

They didn't seem to mind not playing a single game in previous versions, especially since the personalities you'd want for your tutors make them even less likely to object or cause problems.

It's possible the fix for this problem needs to come from the transfer system, and players should be less interested to join teams where the ability gap is so big that they would not realistically make the bench even for a cup game. In FM18 it was happening on occasion, but not nearly as often as it should. Then again, I'm sure there are plenty of players in real life who would join Real Madrid without a second thought even if they knew they would be sitting in reserves the entire length of the contract.

The more I think about this, the more I begin to believe it's one of those things that's up to the human player if he wants to take the realistic approach or the min-max approach, not unlike things such as youth intake sniping or wonderkid shortlists.

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To be honest, it's very welcome to see a replacement for the old system in which a player drags another player's attributes sometimes 10+ points towards his own over the space of a few months, after which he needs to wait to recharge his magic powers before turning the next player into a minime.

But I'm not sure total ambiguity is an improvement either. Even if the adjustments take place much more slowly and plausibly, the ultimate purpose is to adjust some numbers, some of which will be considered favourable or unfavourable, . At the very least, to make the feature worth considering I'd want to know:

1) can a player with a good personality attribute have it dragged down by mentoring a large bunch of less influential or more junior players with a poor personality attribute? 

2) more generally does group size have much of an effect either way on whether people learn things?

3) are negative traits (controversy) as likely to be picked up as positive ones (professionalism) or neutral ones? Because presumably whilst players can pick up bad habits, staff-run mentoring sessions IRL are aimed at influencing the latter much more than the former...

4) Is there much in the way of in game hinting when players are having a positive or negative effect upon each other?

5) What, if anything, do you do if most of your youth team have awful personalities and aren't ready for the first team yet?

 

Also, if the player personality changes are less extreme (a good thing) and harder to "fix" a specific player, I'd hope the starting range of mental attributes for newgens also tend to be less extreme: players with slightly above average professionalism are much more common than players with disastrously bad professionalism in the top tiers of professional football, for obvious reasons. I know there's already a whole bunch of factors that go into shaping the distribution curve of personality attributes for newgens, but I'd still think it needs a tweak if there's less one-way "remedial action" being taken...

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54 minutes ago, SD said:

They didn't seem to mind not playing a single game in previous versions, especially since the personalities you'd want for your tutors make them even less likely to object or cause problems.

Exactly.  But we're no longer on previous versions, nor do we use Tutors any more.  What I'm alluding to here, going back to your original point about "gaming" the system (which I know you said you don't do) by putting older players into the Reserves to mentor the kids:-

You were saying perhaps those older players may gain an influential status in that squad and so maybe help the kids in the Reserves.  And perhaps that may work.  What I was saying however is perhaps those older players will no longer appreciate being dumped in the Reserves and their influence on the kids then may either be nothing or - worst case - it'll have a detrimental effect.

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Very useful explanation Cleon :thup:.

What would be your opinion on young players with low determination now? Will this rise as time goes on because of the squad personality or do we need to wait until they are first teamers and can be mentored before we see changes in that attribute?

I’m specifically thinking here about a high PA 16 year old with low determination.

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5 minutes ago, Boss said:

Very useful explanation Cleon :thup:.

What would be your opinion on young players with low determination now? Will this rise as time goes on because of the squad personality or do we need to wait until they are first teamers and can be mentored before we see changes in that attribute?

I’m specifically thinking here about a high PA 16 year old with low determination.

It's not the end of the world, he's 16 years-old. Just give it time. In the right surroundings and with the right people there is no reason it can't become much higher as he ages.

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9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Exactly.  But we're no longer on previous versions, nor do we use Tutors any more.  What I'm alluding to here, going back to your original point about "gaming" the system (which I know you said you don't do) by putting older players into the Reserves to mentor the kids:-

You were saying perhaps those older players may gain an influential status in that squad and so maybe help the kids in the Reserves.  And perhaps that may work.  What I was saying however is perhaps those older players will no longer appreciate being dumped in the Reserves and their influence on the kids then may either be nothing or - worst case - it'll have a detrimental effect.

Tutors, mentors, whatever, but my hat is off to the devs if stockpiling these players is no longer a thing in FM19.

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Good questions @enigmatic

The one you missed, i think, is;

Using Chelsea because i am them... 

Ive signed de ligt (resolute) det 16 and frankie de jong the same... And put them with david luiz (spirited? Not at laptop) det 17 in a group. I assume, even if it takes longer, the potential is that they can now get det 17.

What if i put cahill (leader) det 14 in the group? Better personality but less determination...both he and luiz have 'significant impact'. 

Would that likely cause the two younger players det to go down from 16?

What then if i throw ampadu in who has det 10 in?... Does he bring the other two down, or have no impact (listed as minor impact) 

Thanks @Cleon / @Seb Wassell

Apologies... I know this is the play by numbers approach you are trying to get rid of... But its a brave new world and im not yrt brave enough

Edited by westy8chimp

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I knew there was a reason i didnt tag you for help on that one :lol:

Cleon kind of answered it already not to worry about personality so much...fine...but is determination (and hiddens) still directly linked to personality? 

Cmon... ME so good and so few bugs this could be a long term save... I dont want to turn De Ligt and De Jong into the next Duberry and Morris

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hehe ok.  I've had a curry and a few beers so feeling mellow.

Mentoring can of course affect personality / determination.  But it's nowhere near the same thing as the old tutoring system where all you did was two put players together and 6 months later bingo bango bongo.

It's not as straight forward as that.  Loads more influences (including dynamics) and a longer term thing.  Don't expect the same 6 month hit.  It's designed to promote variety while at the same time blending the team together into a tighter knit unit.  In due course there could well be some min/maxing strategies if that floats your boat, but the whole thrust of it is to be more natural and realistic.  So in the brave new world, it's ok to have less than perfect players because that's what we have irl :thup:.

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17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I've had a few beers

 

17 minutes ago, herne79 said:

bingo bango bongo.

Thanks :thup:

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4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

But I'm not sure total ambiguity is an improvement either. Even if the adjustments take place much more slowly and plausibly, the ultimate purpose is to adjust some numbers, some of which will be considered favourable or unfavourable, . At the very least, to make the feature worth considering I'd want to know:

Strictly speaking, you shouldn't know that there are "numbers" involved at all. It is personality and playing traits. Determination at a push.

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3 hours ago, Cleon said:

Personalities aren't really the same as they were in FM18. Well they are but they're not. We shouldn't be thinking about his personality as much this time around. We should be focusing on his development and him getting the right kind of training, match experience for his level and so on. Personality is just one small aspect of a player these days and not all players have good personalities. But over time with the social dynamics and squads overall personality type, you should see the player improve (or decline depending on the kind of team you have). You have to think about the squad as a whole and not just individuals.

If that means they've tuned down the effects of personality, especially on development, that's great

 

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

Personality isn't about 'fixing' any longer. Fixing a player as you put it, happens with dedication over many years from the player both on and off the pitch. You need to adapt your mindset a little here. A balanced personality type isn't such a bad thing and neither is a player who isn't a professional one. Over the course of a players career they could be highly influenced by squad dynamics and end up different players over time. Just because someone might start off with what you class as a wrong sort of personality, doesn't mean he won't develop at some stage. It's highly possible he may become more ambitious, more professional and so on.

Personality probably is about "fixing" if your best prospect is "slack" or "spineless"; in FM or real life. Sure, I'm happy with that not being a magic system in which you can turn Ravel Morrison into someone who's nearly as professional as Paul Scholes simply by getting Paul Scholes to spend six months with him, and I'm happy with the remedial options not always working (see: actual Ravel Morrison) or taking a long time. But the FM newgen system at top professional clubs has historically generated a high proportion of obviously destructive personality traits (possible exception: Germany) compared with actual top level professionals. So basically what I'm saying is I'd be much happier seeing it rebalanced so somewhat self-destructive players are relatively rare (and often become less self-destructive with minimal micromanagement) than one where half your youth intake has low single digit determination, and even one player can drag your whole academy down if they're a decent enough footballer to become influential quickly.

And FWIW, I get that "balanced" personalities can have slightly above average attributes in all the important areas or be Balotelli and that "fairly determined" or even "model professional" players can have big hidden issues; traditionally, that's been an annoyance

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3 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

If that means they've tuned down the effects of personality, especially on development, that's great

There are lots of things that impact development, personality is only a single, albeit notable, part of that.

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6 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Strictly speaking, you shouldn't know that there are "numbers" involved at all. It is personality and playing traits. Determination at a push.

But we've all seen enough under the hood to know that despite the intentionally-vague-for-legal-reasons one word personality description and general arsehole-ish conversational style of every single player, there's actually six numbers from 1-20, some of which matter at least as much as the visible attributes ;)

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@Seb Wassell 

Like I'm sure many people did, I holidayed a save a couple of years into the future, and one of things I noticed is 90% of players had a minimum of 4-5 PPMs, which I'm assuming it's the result of the new mentoring system.

It's not a bad thing in itself, and it's a good change from players never developing PPMs in the hands of the AI.

My concern is that this may have went too far in the other direction. As I'm sure you know, PPMs take precedence over PIs and TIs, and what this glut of PPMs does is take away much of the tactical options a manager has. Most players with 4-5 PPMs, whichever ones those happen to be, will end up being pigeonholed into one or two roles at the most.

Is this something the dev team intended and part of the brave new world theme of this installment?

 

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4 minutes ago, SD said:

As I'm sure you know, PPMs take precedence over PIs and TIs

This isn't quite true.

They are modifiers. For example, a player that takes long shots will take fewer long shots if you tell him to but will still take more than someone without that player trait.

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Just now, Seb Wassell said:

This isn't quite true.

They are modifiers, a player that takes long shots will take fewer long shots if you tell him to but will still take more than someone without that player trait.

Oh wow, now this is a game changer, as I've seen this floating around the tactics forum so much I never gave it a second thought.

So the corollary is that a player with both the PPM and the PI active will do even more of that action - and possibly compound each other if the modifier is multiplicative.

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5 hours ago, SD said:

Oh wow, now this is a game changer, as I've seen this floating around the tactics forum so much I never gave it a second thought.

So the corollary is that a player with both the PPM and the PI active will do even more of that action - and possibly compound each other if the modifier is multiplicative.

Remember to forget how things worked previously. Also you have to factor in the players decision making and other modifiers for how and when someone uses a PPM.

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11 hours ago, SD said:

@Seb Wassell 

Like I'm sure many people did, I holidayed a save a couple of years into the future, and one of things I noticed is 90% of players had a minimum of 4-5 PPMs, which I'm assuming it's the result of the new mentoring system.

It's not a bad thing in itself, and it's a good change from players never developing PPMs in the hands of the AI.

My concern is that this may have went too far in the other direction. As I'm sure you know, PPMs take precedence over PIs and TIs, and what this glut of PPMs does is take away much of the tactical options a manager has. Most players with 4-5 PPMs, whichever ones those happen to be, will end up being pigeonholed into one or two roles at the most.

Is this something the dev team intended and part of the brave new world theme of this installment?

 

If few of those players had 4-5 PPMs at the start (some researchers do really like giving PPMs) this sounds like something for the bug forum.

Pretty sure learning PPMs from another player they train with should be a rare and (mostly) intended consequence of the mentoring groups (with a few traits like 'wind up opponents' infrequently picked up over time whether the manager wants it or not). The idea all the forwards organically start to play with their back to goal because they have an influential teammate who does is more than a little unlikely...

 

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