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[ENGLAND] Premier Division Data Issues

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1 hour ago, Samaroy said:

Interest from other clubs, pundit acclaim, rating websites such as Whoscored.com and your fellow researcher's ratings of similar players should offer additional insight into a players CA/PA and attributes.

I appreciate where you're coming from with your posts Samaroy, but this is meaningless fluff. Interest from other clubs is speculation and part of an ever shifting, lacking foundation aspect of the game. Pundits, well there's massive variance in both quality and consistency. Rating websites, well they're people with their own opinion just like ourselves (how they interpret statistics, how they determine relevant statistics are just in their opinion what is relevant) and if SI wanted their ratings then presumably they would have them providing them. Fellow researchers don't tend to be too prescriptive about each others players. It is entirely possible for us to create 2 players, with identical CA's in the same position that are nothing alike. In fact, that is perhaps what we spend more of our time doing than anything else.

It's really worth reinforcing that there's next to no value in comparing a selection of a players values with another because its an incomplete view of the entire package. A vision attribute of X can be very different for a 2 footed player, than 1 footed. If a player has great anticipation and off the ball, well he's in better positions and that vision becomes more useful than a significantly higher vision for a player with inferior attributes in those areas.

There are pulleys and levers all over the place with how attributes work, if someone can create an absolutely absurd looking profile for a defender where he somehow has tackling and marking of 1, yet is just as effective in the game as he is in real life at defending then they've done their job. You can have your opinion and that's fine, but you have to remember that all it boils down to at this point: "Hey researcher, here is my opinion of X" and the researcher is basically in the position of "Well my opinion of Y is in the game"

You're falling into a massive trap here, that you're looking at the attributes of a player, and the attributes of others and making suggestions based on that. However, I can't seem to find anything about you saying the players don't seem to be able to play in FM as they do in real life.

The aim of the research isn't to create a series of numbers everyone agrees on. It is to create accurate representations of the players within the game. There are some confines of the game, the ME is a complex beast which doesn't always do what you'd expect (had my own problems on this front when Peter Crouch started scoring goals for fun one year). Getting the managers ratings right to deploy the players in the correct way is by far the biggest challenge. Player ratings are very superficial and the gap between 1 and 20 is nowhere near as big as most imagine it to be. 

Ultimately if you load up FM, play the game and find player X is playing exactly in your team as you expect him to based on real life, does it matter whether his CA is 1 or 200? Does it matter if a clubs top goalscorer who has a knack for placed shots from the edge of the box has a finishing of 1 or 20 if he's regularly scoring placed shots from the edge of the box? I'd argue it doesn't.

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23 minutes ago, tomlcfc said:

Factually, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this post - it's just that if you believe we should have the lad at anywhere near 152 CA, you haven't seen him play all season!

Transfermarkt valuations are extremely unreliable for a start - Hamza Choudhury is at £900k for goodness' sake. Again, I really have no idea where you get this big 6 interest from? Who has even been linked with him?

Madders has had a good first season, but he went through a period between probably October and February of being pretty anonymous in most games, to the point where many of us were talking of the idea of Puel dropping him for a while. Like many of our players, he is rather one dimensional - if I had a pound for every time he lets the ball run across his body and turns I'd be a rich man, and he will be caught out for it next season once defenders catch on.

Fair enough shouts on his vision, technique and decisions which I've upgraded (IIRC) recently, but he is absolutely nowhere near the quality of players like Mata and Alli, even after the latter has had an awful season. 

He created the most chances in europe in his first season, that should mean something - is he consistent? no, does he go missing in games yes but so did the whole squad under puel and there is a consistency rating in game.

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54 minutes ago, Samaroy said:

He created the most chances in europe in his first season, that should mean something - is he consistent? no, does he go missing in games yes but so did the whole squad under puel and there is a consistency rating in game.

Agreed but it does 'mean something' in the sense he is already one of our best players in the game. 'Chances created' is a highly contentious statistic as it is.

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Posted (edited)
Il y a 4 heures, Samaroy a dit :

He created the most chances in europe in his first season, that should mean something - is he consistent? no, does he go missing in games yes but so did the whole squad under puel and there is a consistency rating in game.

Just to correct it's Memphis Depay the number one in Europe (Maddison is number two by the look of the others tweets^^), link: https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/1132259272551817216

Edited by CWaka

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On 25/05/2019 at 17:14, Sean Blinkhorn said:

All the players you mentioned are no longer at those ratings except Kompany who was absolutely good enough to be about that high, IMO.

No longer at those ratings where? I was going off the winter update.

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9 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

No longer at those ratings where? I was going off the winter update.

The nature of FM is that as soon as you get the data, it's already a question of us looking forward as researchers.

It's why I often try to encourage people to present information about how players are in the game, because its an ever shifting process behind the scenes. Of course attributes don't get updated weekly/monthly etc because that would just be a bit of a joke to impose on a voluntary research team but our thoughts on players do evolve as the season passes.

So a researcher can say a player won't be like X or Y the next time there is an update, but you will have to respect the fact we cannot disclose what the player will be like. Partially due to perhaps not having fully decided yet, and then partially due to the fact we all have non-disclosure agreements in place covering specifics. 

When you get to see this information is of course at SI's discretion. Based on previous years though, most likely it would be the next edition of FM now.

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4 hours ago, santy001 said:

The nature of FM is that as soon as you get the data, it's already a question of us looking forward as researchers.

It's why I often try to encourage people to present information about how players are in the game, because its an ever shifting process behind the scenes. Of course attributes don't get updated weekly/monthly etc because that would just be a bit of a joke to impose on a voluntary research team but our thoughts on players do evolve as the season passes.

So a researcher can say a player won't be like X or Y the next time there is an update, but you will have to respect the fact we cannot disclose what the player will be like. Partially due to perhaps not having fully decided yet, and then partially due to the fact we all have non-disclosure agreements in place covering specifics. 

When you get to see this information is of course at SI's discretion. Based on previous years though, most likely it would be the next edition of FM now.

So is it better that I post how these players have performed in my saves as opposed to pure their ratings?

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There are non-disclosure agreements for research? 

I've signed them for beta testing the couple of times I did it but never anything for research.

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12 hours ago, Samaroy said:

So is it better that I post how these players have performed in my saves as opposed to pure their ratings?

It's not an exact science, but it plays an important part of the equation. The point of view more would be if you have a gut feeling that a players attributes aren't right, are they playing as you would expect them to in the game?

A lot of good feedback is missed here by players not necessarily reporting when there are players in the game who play nothing like their real life counterpart.

I always gravitate towards the Stoke examples, since they're the players I rate. A number of years ago Peter Crouch was scoring goals for fun despite his attributes not looking at all unreasonable. He was around 130CA dominating the goalscoring charts in a lot of peoples saves. Additionally, more recently, just on FM18 in fact, I was guilty of getting Berahino horribly wrong. His CA wasn't overdone (mid 130's) and had come down quite a bit since his peak at West Brom, but other attributes were too good and he was far too effective.

Players pointed it out, but more often than not their suggestions weren't what was appropriate, I made other changes to Berahino and he is far less effective in FM now without having to make tremendous cleaves to his attributes that the average person commenting on it suggested.

The feedback that a player isn't as you would expect functionally can be more meaningful than what you think attributes should be, so long as you can explain it. Let's take a famous example from the past, if in the game a player like Ronaldinho is trying to beat a man by just knocking the ball 20-25 yards down the touch line and sprinting onto it, never making use of his technical footwork to best a defender then there's something wrong. It might be a PPM is needed to restrict this behaviour, or maybe looking at the spread of attributes to see why the player isn't seeing the opportunities available to them. 

 

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On 28/05/2019 at 09:58, santy001 said:

It's not an exact science, but it plays an important part of the equation. The point of view more would be if you have a gut feeling that a players attributes aren't right, are they playing as you would expect them to in the game?

A lot of good feedback is missed here by players not necessarily reporting when there are players in the game who play nothing like their real life counterpart.

I always gravitate towards the Stoke examples, since they're the players I rate. A number of years ago Peter Crouch was scoring goals for fun despite his attributes not looking at all unreasonable. He was around 130CA dominating the goalscoring charts in a lot of peoples saves. Additionally, more recently, just on FM18 in fact, I was guilty of getting Berahino horribly wrong. His CA wasn't overdone (mid 130's) and had come down quite a bit since his peak at West Brom, but other attributes were too good and he was far too effective.

Players pointed it out, but more often than not their suggestions weren't what was appropriate, I made other changes to Berahino and he is far less effective in FM now without having to make tremendous cleaves to his attributes that the average person commenting on it suggested.

The feedback that a player isn't as you would expect functionally can be more meaningful than what you think attributes should be, so long as you can explain it. Let's take a famous example from the past, if in the game a player like Ronaldinho is trying to beat a man by just knocking the ball 20-25 yards down the touch line and sprinting onto it, never making use of his technical footwork to best a defender then there's something wrong. It might be a PPM is needed to restrict this behaviour, or maybe looking at the spread of attributes to see why the player isn't seeing the opportunities available to them. 

 

The issue I see with this approach is the match engine is never set in stone. It changes 2-3 times per FM edition and these changes radically shift the balance from playing wide, to narrow, and different shifts in striker combinations etc.

So if pressure forwards are not working in a particular edition and I demonstrated 5-10 saves where Vardy was ineffective - he gets a boost, then SI changes the match engine - and he becomes unstoppable.

It's a really difficult science to perfect using that particular method. If the match engine was more stable I would agree that its definitely the way to go.

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Posted (edited)

Newcastle United Academy Staff Changes

Ben Dawson has changed jobs from U23 Manager to Head of Academy Coaching (not sure how this will be replicated in game as Joe Joyce is still overall in charge of the academy, maybe add Dawson as U23 Coach with some responsibilities for runs general training for youth squads an sets up individual training for youth players. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/newcastle-united-set-reveal-new-16317257

Mark Atkinson is joining from Sunderland as Assistant Head of Coaching, add as U23's Coach https://www.sunderlandecho.com/sport/football/sunderland-afc/sunderland-afc-news/sunderland-set-to-lose-key-member-of-coaching-staff-to-local-rivals-newcastle-united-1-9801690

Neil Redfearn is now U23's Manager https://trainingground.guru/articles/redfearn-appointed-newcastle-u23-coach

Liam Bramley is now Assistant Manager of U23's (since March 2019 for non playing history) https://uk.linkedin.com/in/liam-bramley-30766730

Dave Watson has left as U18 Manager and has been replaced by U15's Coach Neil Winskill, he also needs a UEFA Pro Licence as his coaching qualification https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/newcastle-united-academy-shake-up-16319630

Ian Bogie has moved up from U14's assistant coach to U16's Coach https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ian-bogie-b5774084, he also needs UEFA A licence as his coaching qualification

Edited by magpie1892

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In a new Chelsea save, there is a player called Rafael Pernão (currently at Cabofriense) who has a 40% sell on clause, meaning 40% of the sum will be owed to Chelsea. The problem is that he has never played for Chelsea in his career so I don't know how it's happened.

15598394118059099097513506166801.jpg

15598394462591727030139780391846.jpg

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19 hours ago, Aaron Robertshaw said:

n a new Chelsea save, there is a player called Rafael Pernão (currently at Cabofriense) who has a 40% sell on clause, meaning 40% of the sum will be owed to Chelsea. The problem is that he has never played for Chelsea in his career so I don't know how it's happened.

https://www.gazetaonline.com.br/esportes/futebol_capixaba/vitoria_fc/2019/05/hoje-no-vitoria-rafael-pernao-relembra-fluminense-e-manchester-city-1014182377.html

This article has him training at Chelsea, Spurs and City(!?!?!?!) around 08, not much else though.

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On 12/03/2019 at 13:28, mattgranger said:

Hi @Rockywhu thanks for the feedback.

Wilshere for me has declined over the years, sadly the injuries have not helped. I thought the few games he did play for us his passing was below par so lowered the rating accordingly. Perhaps he was not fully fit or a bit rusty. Hope to see more of his games (if he ever plays for us again) and will reassess his ratings.

Fabianski is one of our top rated players, his command of area is suitable I feel and one on ones too. I increased his reflexes and other stats I thought relevant but the reality is I think we've only had 5 clean sheets this year (of course the defense have to take some blame too) so I didn't really feel that I could increase his stats too much. Whilst I do think he's been excellent this year and has been the best keeper we've had for a for a long while I'd still need to take a bit more time to look at him and then really look at the stats for the next update in the summer.

Fair enough mate.

Well right now he has the highest passing accuracy at the club on evidence from whoscored.com.

He looked good towards the end of the season for me.

He's always been very good with his weighted passes in behind defences.

In his last season at Arsenal he was the only central mid who they had who would see runners quick and execute those key passes well for the striker.

I hope he does stay fit because I'm sure he's one of the most talented English Midfielders still when fit and ppl in General have forgotten how class he is.

 

 

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On 06/06/2019 at 17:44, Aaron Robertshaw said:

In a new Chelsea save, there is a player called Rafael Pernão (currently at Cabofriense) who has a 40% sell on clause, meaning 40% of the sum will be owed to Chelsea. The problem is that he has never played for Chelsea in his career so I don't know how it's happened.

15598394118059099097513506166801.jpg

15598394462591727030139780391846.jpg

Thanks - this is a data error; I've contacted the Brazil head researcher so that it can be corrected. Apologies.

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Thoughts on players after Liverpool's season:

Firmino, while often lauded, has been pretty inconsistent this season. In many games his passing has been atricious, with several misplaced passes in a row. Suggestion: Lower his consistency and either vision or passing rating.

Wijnaldum is still underrated in the game, which he's been for a long time. His "Balance" stat should be world class, it's almost impossible to take the ball from him. Extremely good at shielding the ball. His Heading rating at 12 is also too low, he's a great header of the ball, which he always shows when he gets the opportunity (like vs Barcelona).

Sadio Mane's heading ability (8!) is also incredibly underrated. Deserved a 5 point raise there at least. Scored many great headers this season.

Clyne's performances for Bournemouth this season proved everyone who complained about him being way too good in the game right. He's just not that good anymore, a very limited footballer.

Milner is great, but throughout the season it was starting to get more and more apparent that he's not quite at Fabinho/Gini/Hendo's level. Getting slower and slower - should probably have an overall slight decrease of stats to not make him quite as viable as the others in the next season.

I'll also repeat my previous suggestion that Matip is the one that should have the "brings ball out of defence" PPM, not Van Dijk.

 

On a sidenote: Why don't you have PL club specific threads anymore? I feel like it would be more logical to have a "League one" thread, and a "League two" thread, and Club-specific threads for the PL clubs, rather than the opposite which is the case now.

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On 08/06/2019 at 15:04, Rockywhu said:

Fair enough mate.

Well right now he has the highest passing accuracy at the club on evidence from whoscored.com.

He looked good towards the end of the season for me.

He's always been very good with his weighted passes in behind defences.

In his last season at Arsenal he was the only central mid who they had who would see runners quick and execute those key passes well for the striker.

I hope he does stay fit because I'm sure he's one of the most talented English Midfielders still when fit and ppl in General have forgotten how class he is.

 

 

Hi @Rockywhu I will reassess once I've seen more games from Jack Wilshere, really hoping he can stay fit for a good chunk of games! But let's see. 

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On 10/06/2019 at 10:40, mattgranger said:

Hi @Rockywhu I will reassess once I've seen more games from Jack Wilshere, really hoping he can stay fit for a good chunk of games! But let's see. 

Same here mate he's a class act.

Gets in the England team for me when fit. 

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Regarding Newcastle, a few things I noticed:
Stefan O'Connor: In his achievements, has the competition missing (Arsenal x Galatasaray). It was in Champions League.
DeAndre Yedlin: In his achievements, in the pre game editor, it appears that he has won the World Cup with USA. Can't honestly think of what it might be, since individual awards are not being done (He was young soccer athlete in 2k14 in the USA)

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A couple more Newcastle staff changes (apart from the obvious today)

Could Kevin Richardson be set as Assistant Manager (U18 Team) rather than coach (U18 Team) as he is always on the touchline on match days supporting the U18 Manager.

Simon Tweddell should be first team fitness coach - https://uk.linkedin.com/in/simon-tweddle-4013bb64

Chris Wilding left in September 2016, looks like he is studying for a physio degree https://uk.linkedin.com/in/chris-wilding-21637b124

 

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Tottenham staff changes:

Matt Wells has joined Fulham as Assistant Manager - https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2019/march/20/introducing-matt-wells

Rob Burch has also joined Fulham as Goalkeeper Coach - https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2019/june/21/burch-joins-fulham

Jon Goodman has joined MK Dons as Academy Manager - https://www.mkdons.com/news/2019/march/goodman-appointed-academy-manager/

Chris Hughes is listed as Academy Doctor in game but should be put as 1st team Doctor as he  has been on the bench for all 1st team games this season (Shabaz Mughal is still Chief Doctor) - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-hughes-65ab6a34/?originalSubdomain=uk

Stuart Campbell should be added to the game as a 1st team physio, he has also been on the bench all season - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-campbell-81264369/

Jonathan Hill should be made 1st team data analyst - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-hill-1a00086b/

 

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The Premier League International Cup is inviting U18 sides from foreign countries that don't have U21/U23 etc teams - in these cases, the Reserves would make much more sense due to the age limit for the competition being 23.

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Hey, if I start a new game with 19.1.0 database does that feature changes made before the 19.3.0 patch? Not player ratings necessarily, but data such as changing a player's height or other factual elements?

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Trent Alexander-Arnold is too fast in the game. 15-15 acceleration-pace doesn't really reflect reality, where he's been beaten in pure sprint duels by opponents who aren't even particularily fast.

Change suggestion: Increase his crossing (15->17), decisions (12->14), and vision (12->15).  Decrease acceleration (15->13) and pace (15->13) and you get a more accurate Trent in my opinion.

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Some Danish former footballers just did a piece on the biggest crooks of modern football.

As they mentioned Vertonghen, I thought I'd post their conclusion for the Spurs researcher to consider:

- They said he is very unsporting and always diving, complaining, etc. This would imply a very low sportsmanship rating (maybe 3-4. Current rating is set to "average"/10).

- On the other hand, he is quite calm and smart about it and often keeps his cool when the ref's around (as opposed to the likes of Luis Suarez, Diego Costa, etc.). This would imply a high temperament rating (maybe 15 or above. Current rating is 11).

- They also said he often pinches players, steps on their toes, etc. This would imply a very high dirtiness rating (maybe 15 or above. Current rating is set to 13).

- Finally, because of all the complaining, you could consider the PPMs "argues with officials" and "winds up opponents".

please be aware that these are not my personal opinions as I have no opinion of Vertonghen. Just thought that experts' review of him as being in the same category of Sergio Ramos, Luiz Suarez, Diego Costa, etc., could be useful :)

Thanks for considering.

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On 27/06/2019 at 16:39, RageMaster said:

Tottenham staff changes:

Matt Wells has joined Fulham as Assistant Manager - https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2019/march/20/introducing-matt-wells

Rob Burch has also joined Fulham as Goalkeeper Coach - https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2019/june/21/burch-joins-fulham

Jon Goodman has joined MK Dons as Academy Manager - https://www.mkdons.com/news/2019/march/goodman-appointed-academy-manager/

Chris Hughes is listed as Academy Doctor in game but should be put as 1st team Doctor as he  has been on the bench for all 1st team games this season (Shabaz Mughal is still Chief Doctor) - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-hughes-65ab6a34/?originalSubdomain=uk

Stuart Campbell should be added to the game as a 1st team physio, he has also been on the bench all season - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-campbell-81264369/

Jonathan Hill should be made 1st team data analyst - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-hill-1a00086b/

 

Matt Taylor is our new U18 Head Coach

Ryan Mason is our new Uefa Youth League Head Coach U19 (maybe make him U18 Assistant in game?)

Nigel Gibbs has rejoined as Assistant Head of Player Development. Possibly U18 coach in game?

Former player Chris Riley is the U23 Fitness Coach

Former player Troy Archibald Henville is now an U18 coach.

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2019/july/academy-coaching-update/

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