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[ENGLAND] Premier Division Data Issues

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1 hour ago, Gungner said:

No Christian Pulisic set to join Chelsea in the 19.3 DB?

You have Higuain in there, but they have made a deal with Dortmund to sign Pulisic pr. 01/07-19.

Higuain was loaned, Pulisic was bought and loaned back to dortmund.

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Ah okay. Did not know that... my bad :)

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West Ham 

Not a bad Winter update but I a few things I've noticed that I don't think are accurate. 

Wilshere had a 16 pass before the update and now it's gone down to 14... why ?

He is a very good passer and think from what I've seen down the years it's too low.

Also I don't think Fabianski has a good enough command of area and his one on ones should be higher than 14 as he's saved us many times this season 1 v 1 

 

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Van Dijk has the PPM "Brings ball out of defense", Matip does not.

However, Matip does this more than Van Dijk.

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Emerson Palmieri ID:19158043 has in his achievements a title with Roma for the São Paulo First Division on 13/5/2012. The right team should be Santos.

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@diddydaddydoddy @GSevensM75

This post started as a reply to someone in the Spurs thread who mentioned Heung Min-Son fails to deliver for him, to which I was trying to argue that he's slightly underrated compared to his IRL self. So I went on to compare him to someone like Liverpool's Sadio Mane, who I felt is around the same tier in terms of effectiveness, and I was shocked at how underrated Son is compared to him.

The numbers below are for their current season in the Prem.

For starters, Son has a pass completion of 85% over the course of this season(last one as well), with a decent output of 1.3 key passes per 90. Mane has a 77% pass completion with 1.1 key passes, yet the latter is rated 14/13/14/14 in passing/vision/decisions/anticipation vs Son's 12/12/13/13. 

Mane makes an average of 1.7 successful dribbles out of 3.2 attempted, for a 53% success rate. Son averages 2 successful dribbles per 90 out of an identical number of 3.2 attempts, for a 60% success rate. In FM Mane is rated 16/16/16/16/15 for dribbling/technique/flair/agility/balance while Son is rated 15/15/13/14/11.

They both have a similar number of poor touches per 90, with 3 for Mane vs Son's 2.9, yet Mane's first touch is rated 16 while Son's is rated 12, with 16 vs 15 for technique.

Only 13.6% of Mane's crosses this season have connected vs Son's 35%. Granted, we have Kane and Llorente so this muddies the waters a bit, but this is another area where Mane has a clear advantage in-game with 14/16/14/13 for crossing/technique/anticipation/vision vs Son's 13/15/13/12.

In terms of finishing, Mane does have more goals this season with 14 vs 11, but if you consider the minutes played, it becomes one every 162 minutes played for Mane vs Son's 145. It needs to be said that Mane does manage this from fewer shots, 2.5 per 90 vs Son's 3.2, and with a better conversion rate even if you take out long shots - 27% vs 22.5%. This is not the whole story though, with Son converting 70% over his xG from close range vs Mane's 65%. All things considered, the players are rated fair-ish in this regard, with Mane having 15/16/14 for finishing/technique/composure vs Son's 16/15/13.

Son does have an edge in Long Shots with 16 vs 12, but this is more than justified, having scored 4 times from outside the box this season alone, out of 26 attempted shots. Meanwhile, Mane not only failed to score from outside the box so far this season, but he only scored two such goals over the course of his entire career, so if anything it's Mane's 12 Long Shots that is overrated.

There is one key aspect that's missing from my analysis: that Son is capable with both feet, so in-game he gets more "value" out of his lower technicals.  At the same time, a player's technical attributes are not used in a vacuum, and I feel Son's both-footedness is more than made up by Mane's far superior speed, which will allow him to receive the ball in better positions or help him beat his man to make a pass or take a shot unpressured.

Now, I'm inclined to think that Son is rated fairly and that Mane is the one who is overrated. It's clear to me that Son not in the same tier as Hazard, Salah, Sterling or Sane, but at the same time, the large gap in-game between him and Mane is clearly not justified.

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On 07/03/2019 at 20:13, Rockywhu said:

West Ham 

Not a bad Winter update but I a few things I've noticed that I don't think are accurate. 

Wilshere had a 16 pass before the update and now it's gone down to 14... why ?

He is a very good passer and think from what I've seen down the years it's too low.

Also I don't think Fabianski has a good enough command of area and his one on ones should be higher than 14 as he's saved us many times this season 1 v 1 

 

Command of Area was possibly Fabianski's biggest weakness with us. A lot of times he'd stay rooted to his line instead of coming out to sort pretty straightforward things out. Could never fault his ability to make important saves (especially late in games) but there was only one period during his first season where I felt he was dealing with his fair share of crosses (we had Javier Garcia as GK coach at the time, now of Arsenal).

Now we have goalkeepers who are even more shy and one can't even make saves. Picked for their passing ability. Game's gone mad.

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Posted (edited)

Fair enough mate.

However usually the Winter update should be based on how the new players have performed for West Ham and should be adjusted accordingly.

I've seen every game this season and for us at least his command of area has been the best I have seen from our goalkeepers in a long time.

Maybe our goalkeeper coach has improved him.. ex Liverpool gk coach.

We apply the offside trap at the edge of our box and to play like that you need a goalkeeper who  deals with any crosses even more so and commands his box well

 

 

 

Edited by Rockywhu
Typo

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I have been meaning to post these changes I think need to be made to the Newcastle team for a while so I'd like to apologise in advance for the wall of text.

Martin Dubravka
Work rate of 1 seems odd. Most GKs in the Premier League seem to have a work rate of at least 10.
Passing and vision could do with some minor boosts to reflect his distribution.

Karl Darlow
His passing and vision stats seem too high (and too close to Dubravka's). Rafa was desperate to bring in a GK last January who could play out from the back because Darlow couldn't do it very well.

Rob Elliot
Reduce CA. He is our 4th choice GK but his CA is 12 higher than Fredddie Woodman who is ahead of him. Rafa said that he was free to leave the club in the January transfer window.

Federico Fernandez
Passing rating of 9 seems too low. When he was playing regularly early in the season while Lejeune was injured he proved himself to be a decent ball playing centre back. Increase to around 12.

Jamaal Lascelles
Reduce passing to 9/10 as he misplaces simple passes quite regularly.

Fabian Schar
He only speaks basic English in the game but he's definitely fluent. See this interview on BT Sport after the game against Burnley.
Add the "Brings Ball Out Of Defence" trait as he regularly dribbles forward with the ball (as seen with his first goal against Cardiff).
I would also add the "Gets Forward Whenever Possible" and "Shoots From Distance" traits.
I'm not sure what "Plays No Through Balls" trait does in game but I don't think it really applies to Schar.
Increase dribbling to 12/13, long shots to 12 and passing to 15
Aggression seems too low at 12. I would increase this to somewhere in the region of 16-18. He has picked up 10 yellow cards already this season (from only 18 games so far).

Paul Dummett
CB rating seems low. I would increase to 16/17.
Reduce WBL rating from 14 as Rafa changes to a 4 at the back formation whenever he comes on.
I would suggest some minor reductions to some of his attacking stats such as crossing and corners.

Ciaran Clark
Seems overrated in general. Reduce CA to around the region of 125-128.
Passing rating of 12 seems too high. Reduce to 10.
Heading could go up to around 16 as he scores quite regularly (for a CB) when he plays,
Reduce LB rating from 15. I can't remember the last time he played there.

Javi Manquillo
LB rating needs increasing to around 16/17. He's filled in there multiple times since we signed him as a backup to Dummett.
I also seem to recall him playing there regularly during his loan spell at Marseille.

Florian Lejeune
His CA puts him as the 4th best CB in the squad. I'd say he is probably our best CB so an increase to a CA of around 140 (Lascelles' current CA) would be fair.
Passing of 12 is way too low. Should be at least 14/15. I think his composure of 13 should be increased from 15/16. I don't think there's many better ball playing centre backs in the league.
He has a rating of 16 for DM and 12 for CM. He hasn't played either of those positions since he joined and I don't think either position would suit him in the PL. Remove both positions ompletely or remove CM and reduce DM rating to around 10.
Remove "Gets Forward Whenever Possible" trait as he doesn't really do that like Schar does on the other side of the defence.
Add "Likes To Switch Ball To Other Flank" trait because he regularly hits long passes from the land hand side of defence to the right wing.

Isaac Hayden
I've not checked his professionalism rating but I think it should be at least 18. He's desperate to leave the club to move back down South to his family but the performances hes put in over the past few months have been superb.

Kenedy
In game he speaks fluent English but its been reported this season that he can't speak it. I would reduce to basic English (probably 2/3). Link to article here.
I would remove his ability to play at WBR and DR as I don't think he's ever played in either of those positions.

Jonjo Shelvey
Increase DM rating to 15 and reduce AMC rating to around 12 as he's much more of a deep lying playmaker than an attacking midfielder.
He's always played as one of the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 since he joined us and I can't remember him ever playing in a number 10 role.

Sean Longstaff
Has a fixed potential of 142. Should this not be a -8 since he hasn't really played enough for the first team to judge?
Based on how he played before his injury I think he needs increases to his composure and passing (around 15 for each) as he was regularly praised by fans and pundits for his calmness on the ball and range of passing.
I think his AMC rating of 20 should be reduced to 17/18 and he should be given a DMC rating of 12-14 because hes played in a much deeper role in the first team.

Miguel Almiron
I know it is probably too early in his Newcastle career for us to make major changes to him but there's a few easy changes I think could be made based on what we've seen so far.
Add "Runs With Ball Often" trait. This is pretty self explanatory. He's always running directly up the pitch whenever he gets the chance to.
He has a rating of 20 for MC but I don't think he'll ever play that deep in the PL. I would recommend reducing this to 15/16.
Increase AML rating to 17/18 as this is where he's been playing in our 5-4-1 formation since he joined.
His crossing rating of 10 seems slightly too low. I know he's not got any assists for us yet but he's regularly delivered dangerous crosses since he joined. Increase to 12.

Matt Ritchie
Increase WBL rating to 16/17. When FM20 comes out he will have almost played a full season there.
He also recently stated that he thinks he's a better player at wing back and "loves playing there". Link to article here.

Yoshinori Muto
His CA puts him as the 6th best player in the squad (13 points higher than Ayoze Perez and 5 higher than Salomon Rondon!) which is way too high. He's barely played all season and can't even make the bench most games.
Increase his AMC rating to 15/16 as he was used regularly earlier in the season as a rotation/backup option for Ayoze.
Reduce ML rating to 14 because I don't recall him ever playing that far back for us since he joined.

Ayoze Perez
Increase AMR rating to 16/17 as this is where he plays in our 5-4-1 formation. Maybe reduce ST rating to 15/16 as I don't think he's played there since his very first season with us.
Only speaks basic English in-game but he speaks English fluently. See him speaking in an interview after the recent Huddersfield here.
Also I agree with everything mentioned in Smallen's post here.
I'm not sure why he got a decrease in CA by 8 in the winter update. 125 CA is ridiculously low considering how important he is to Rafa and our team. He has been used more than any other player in the 3 years since Rafa Benitez joined. 125 CA puts him on the same level as Henri Saivet who Rafa has repeatedly loaned out and only slightly better than Jacob Murphy, Christian Atsu and Joselu who are nowhere near as important to us as Ayoze is. He was our top goalscorer last season with 8 goals from the number 10 role.
Finishing should be increased to 14 and composure decreased to 10/11 to reflect his instinctive finishing abilities.
Pace and acceleration at 12 and 13 respectively are too low. Increase both to 14.
Flair and dribbling should both be increased to 15. He often pulls a skill out of nowhere and keeps the ball when he's surrounded by defenders or flicks the ball in an awkward way to pass or shoot.
Work Rate of 15 is too low because he's one of the hardest workers in the team. 17/18 would be much fairer.
Teamwork should be much higher (at least 16) because he's vital to the way the team play and Rafa always trusts him to do what he's asked.
Stamina and Natural Fitness could be upped by a point or 2 because he even though he puts in a lot of work during games he rarely has to be subbed or rested.
Most of his goals are tap ins so 12 long shots is too high. 7/8 would be much more accurate.
Strength could also do with a minor decrease because he can be pushed off the ball quite easily.

Salomon Rondon
His CA of 133 seems too low, especially when Yoshinori Muto has a CA of 138.
I think his mental stats need some boosts.
His work rate needs increasing quite a lot because he has a lot of running to do as a lone striker in our system (and when he was at West Brom). I think 16/17 would be fair.
His teamwork is too low at 13. By comparison Mitrovic has 16 and Rafa didn't trust him to do what he asked (I'm a big fan of Mitrovic by the way so I'm not knocking him). I think it should be at least the same.
I would increase his finishing to 15, heading to 17 and composure and off the ball to 14.
I've noticed he has a dirtiness of 11 in the editor. This seems too high because I don't think he's a dirty player at all.
Also his sportsmanship of 12 could do with a big increase. I recall a few months ago he kicked the ball out of play when he had the opportunity to shoot because he thought one of the defenders was unconscious (I think it was against Cardiff).

Elias Sorensen
Has a fixed PA of 132. Given his form for the u23s this season and the Denmark u21s I think he deserves a -8 PA. Its surely too early for him to have a fixed PA.
I know this will probably be for the Blackpool researcher to decide but given his lack of game time for them since he joined I thought it was worth mentioning here.

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@SouthernNUFC that's a lengthy post, but you have to keep in mind that in its entirety its subjective opinion. One line statements about individual attributes really don't have any weight towards changing a researchers opinion.

Basically you're just stating "I think X" and the stats are already set in the way of the researcher being in the position of "I think Y". 

The Ciaran Clark example is a prime one:

10 hours ago, SouthernNUFC said:

Ciaran Clark
Seems overrated in general. Reduce CA to around the region of 125-128.
Passing rating of 12 seems too high. Reduce to 10.
Heading could go up to around 16 as he scores quite regularly (for a CB) when he plays,
Reduce LB rating from 15. I can't remember the last time he played there.

- CA reduction as opening opinion - with a very vague reasoning.
- Suggestion of an attribute decrease not really going to touch the sides for suggested new CA.
- Suggestion of an attribute increase that will likely negate the previously mentioned decrease.
- Irrelevant positional change suggestion, a lack of playing time there for one club does not guarantee a lack of ability to play in such a position.

There's far too much there in that post in terms of raw volume for a researcher to be able to provide any meaningful feedback on, and even if they're so inclined there's so little detail that there's not enough for a researcher again to provide any meaningful feedback on.

My suggestion is perhaps to hunker down and consider just a couple of players in far more detail, you keep making CA comparisons between different players (Rondon and Muto, Perez and Saivet) like it means something tangible when it doesn't. It's never a valid argument to increase one players CA because a different player has a CA of X. Players are judged in a vacuum, and when it comes to the case of there being someone in a similar mould to that player (not usually just another player at the same club who can play that position) there's different questions to ask - and they usually get asked long before the data goes live!

Ultimately, your post is (while no doubt unintended) coming across more as though you've just put in an order at a restaurant and now you're expecting a researcher to go out there and make it all work for you. 

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@santy001 To be fair I did acknowledge at the beginning of the post that it would be a lengthy one and apologised for it in advance. I do appreciate the feedback though so I will try to streamline it and remove some of the more subjective CA/PA and attribute specific parts. I'll also provide sources for my reasoning for suggested positional changes where necessary.

Martin Dubravka

Work Rate of 1 just seems a really odd stat compared to other keepers at the club and the league in general.

Fabian Schar

Only speaks basic English in game but is clearly fluent. Link to an interview with him speaking English.

Suggested traits to add: "Brings Ball Out Of Defence", "Shoots From Distance" and "Gets Forward Whenever Possible"

Suggested traits to remove: "Plays No Through Balls"

Ciaran Clark

Reduce LB rating from 15. According to Transfermarkt he's played there twice since signing for us nearly 3 years ago. 15 seems too high. Link to Transfermarkt.

Javi Manquillo

Increase LB rating. According to Transfermarkt he's played there 42 times in his career (compared to 84 at RB). Link to Transfermarkt.

Florian Lejeune

Remove ratings for DMC and MC. According to Transfermarkt he's played DM once in his whole career and never played in CM. Link to Transfermarkt.

Suggested traits to add: "Likes To Switch Ball To Other Flank"

Suggested traits to remove: "Gets Forwards Whenever Possible"

Kenedy

Speaks fluent English in game but it has been reported that he's never learned to speak English because of laziness. Link to article.

Jonjo Shelvey

Reduce AMC rating and increase DMC rating. According to Transfermarkt he's played attacking midfield once since signing for us and that was back in the 15/16 season. Link to Transfermarkt.

Yoshinori Muto

Increase AMC rating. According to Transfermarkt he's played in that role in 5 of his 13 games since he joined us. Link to Transfermarkt.

Miguel Almiron

Increase AML rating. He's played that position in every single game since he joined the club in January.

Suggested traits to add: "Runs With Ball Often"

Ayoze Perez

Only speaks basic English in game but is clearly fluent. Link to an interview with him speaking English.

Increase AMR rating. He's played that position in pretty much every single game since we switched to the 5-4-1 formation we are currently using.

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On 06/03/2019 at 18:01, Sophos said:

Is it okay if I ask how you go about rating academy players? Is it mostly based on reputation, and what you hear from time to time? Or do you go and watch their games often?

Hi Sophos,

It's based on lots of inputs.  I watch as many games as I can (either physically or online), but I also have contacts with close links to the club, listen to others who go and watch the games when I can't etc.

Unless it's obvious (which is very rare) it is very difficult to predict what level a youngster will end up as.  My main thing is to try and get the basics right, such as position, appearance, what their natural foot is, what their basic first touch and passing is like etc.  But even that can be difficult as youth players are often shoehorned in to non natural positions.  But as good as judge of potential as I think I have, you'll always get a Harry Kane (who was highly rated at the club but no one foresaw him becoming one of the best in the world) and you'll always get the highly rated young players who don't go on to make it.

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On 09/03/2019 at 02:52, SD said:

@diddydaddydoddy @GSevensM75

This post started as a reply to someone in the Spurs thread who mentioned Heung Min-Son fails to deliver for him, to which I was trying to argue that he's slightly underrated compared to his IRL self. So I went on to compare him to someone like Liverpool's Sadio Mane, who I felt is around the same tier in terms of effectiveness, and I was shocked at how underrated Son is compared to him.

The numbers below are for their current season in the Prem.

For starters, Son has a pass completion of 85% over the course of this season(last one as well), with a decent output of 1.3 key passes per 90. Mane has a 77% pass completion with 1.1 key passes, yet the latter is rated 14/13/14/14 in passing/vision/decisions/anticipation vs Son's 12/12/13/13. 

Mane makes an average of 1.7 successful dribbles out of 3.2 attempted, for a 53% success rate. Son averages 2 successful dribbles per 90 out of an identical number of 3.2 attempts, for a 60% success rate. In FM Mane is rated 16/16/16/16/15 for dribbling/technique/flair/agility/balance while Son is rated 15/15/13/14/11.

They both have a similar number of poor touches per 90, with 3 for Mane vs Son's 2.9, yet Mane's first touch is rated 16 while Son's is rated 12, with 16 vs 15 for technique.

Only 13.6% of Mane's crosses this season have connected vs Son's 35%. Granted, we have Kane and Llorente so this muddies the waters a bit, but this is another area where Mane has a clear advantage in-game with 14/16/14/13 for crossing/technique/anticipation/vision vs Son's 13/15/13/12.

In terms of finishing, Mane does have more goals this season with 14 vs 11, but if you consider the minutes played, it becomes one every 162 minutes played for Mane vs Son's 145. It needs to be said that Mane does manage this from fewer shots, 2.5 per 90 vs Son's 3.2, and with a better conversion rate even if you take out long shots - 27% vs 22.5%. This is not the whole story though, with Son converting 70% over his xG from close range vs Mane's 65%. All things considered, the players are rated fair-ish in this regard, with Mane having 15/16/14 for finishing/technique/composure vs Son's 16/15/13.

Son does have an edge in Long Shots with 16 vs 12, but this is more than justified, having scored 4 times from outside the box this season alone, out of 26 attempted shots. Meanwhile, Mane not only failed to score from outside the box so far this season, but he only scored two such goals over the course of his entire career, so if anything it's Mane's 12 Long Shots that is overrated.

There is one key aspect that's missing from my analysis: that Son is capable with both feet, so in-game he gets more "value" out of his lower technicals.  At the same time, a player's technical attributes are not used in a vacuum, and I feel Son's both-footedness is more than made up by Mane's far superior speed, which will allow him to receive the ball in better positions or help him beat his man to make a pass or take a shot unpressured.

Now, I'm inclined to think that Son is rated fairly and that Mane is the one who is overrated. It's clear to me that Son not in the same tier as Hazard, Salah, Sterling or Sane, but at the same time, the large gap in-game between him and Mane is clearly not justified.

Hi SD,

Thanks for taking the time do a compare.  I'm relatively happy with Son's stats in terms of realism.  He is the sort of player capable of the brilliant but also the ridiculous and he is very inconsistent (which is a malaise that affects a few Spurs players unfortunately).

My biggest gripe with Son is his lack of bravery and he often has a poor first touch.  His finishing with both feet is superb, but I feel his composure is fairly standard (similar to Robbie Keane, who used to score great goals but also fluffed one on ones more than he'd score them).

As for Mane, each Researcher has to rate their players as they sit fit but also how they fit in as a first teamer in a top performing team (which Liverpool are).  In isolation I agree that Mane is over rated in the game and I wouldn't set his stats, CA, PA as the same as the Liverpool researcher.  My personal view is that Son is more a intelligent player and has better technique than Mane.  But Mane is far more aggressive and mentally and physically superior to Son.

 

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@SouthernNUFC you should never have to apologise for making a lengthy post of your opinions of the data. Some researchers are far too precious and would apparently prefer there to be no discussion at all, such is the high barrier for entry they try to enforce here.

9 is a decent rating for Fede's passing accuracy. It's not a bad rating for a centre half (who largely play simpler passes than players further forward, even if many are long) and his range of passing was always limited with us. Lascelles should have a rating of 5-6 if he's misplacing simple passes regularly (under no pressure or other circumstances). The rating of 14-15 you recommend for Lejeune would make him as capable on the ball as a most Championship midfield playmakers.

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Is there anyone in charge of AFC Bournemouth? There are many inaccuracies in terms of the staff as some have been moved around and many are missing. I'm a fan of the club that has just picked up the game and I would love to speak to the AFC Bournemouth researcher if possible to help out with just these few things. 

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1 hour ago, swansongs said:

you should never have to apologise for making a lengthy post of your opinions of the data. Some researchers are far too precious and would apparently prefer there to be no discussion at all, such is the high barrier for entry they try to enforce here.

It would probably be better if we had some forum, or thread, more for the general discussion of data, or perhaps something through which people can ask more general questions than these threads which are more explicitly about moulding the data. General data discussions never really seem to take off though, only ever getting a passing mention. 

As for the matter of large posts, it was more coming back to the feedback side of things. Personally I read posts as though, were I the relevant researcher, I'd reply to them. If there's a large post with a lot vagueness that wouldn't make sense to action you can't really give the poster much in the way of tangible feedback. Giving people the tools to best provide input into the data process isn't a high barrier for entry. It's a case of making sure the arguments people have are as solid as possible. Sometimes its easy to do, but we're less than 6 weeks on from when we (researchers) gave our opinion on the states of our clubs and players. So it stands to reason that for something to considerably augment your thinking on a player would need a pretty good argument attached. 

Even more so for myself and yourself after this update, considering the hefty axe we've had to wield to player attributes I suspect its going to have prompted serious thinking about how best to reflect the players in the new reality of having gone from midtable premier league to midtable championship in just over a year. 

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4 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Even more so for myself and yourself after this update, considering the hefty axe we've had to wield to player attributes I suspect its going to have prompted serious thinking about how best to reflect the players in the new reality of having gone from midtable premier league to midtable championship in just over a year. 

Most of my players actually got upgrades. We sold all the PL failures, so much of our midtable Championship side is still building up from the League One and PL2 attributes they had in the summer.

My personal opinion is that no one needs a solid argument to challenge any (of my) ratings. As long as things are kept civil seeing someone else's opinion never hurts. We're still free to ignore suggestions and/or defend our work after all.

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5 hours ago, GSevensM75 said:

Hi SD,

Thanks for taking the time do a compare.  I'm relatively happy with Son's stats in terms of realism.  He is the sort of player capable of the brilliant but also the ridiculous and he is very inconsistent (which is a malaise that affects a few Spurs players unfortunately).

My biggest gripe with Son is his lack of bravery and he often has a poor first touch.  His finishing with both feet is superb, but I feel his composure is fairly standard (similar to Robbie Keane, who used to score great goals but also fluffed one on ones more than he'd score them).

As for Mane, each Researcher has to rate their players as they sit fit but also how they fit in as a first teamer in a top performing team (which Liverpool are).  In isolation I agree that Mane is over rated in the game and I wouldn't set his stats, CA, PA as the same as the Liverpool researcher.  My personal view is that Son is more a intelligent player and has better technique than Mane.  But Mane is far more aggressive and mentally and physically superior to Son.

 

I certainly agree with your overall rating of Son for the most part and it's only some very specific aspects I suggest changing.

Just like you put it, he has excellent finishing, but his composure does fail him on occasion so I have no problem with his numbers for those, although it can be argued that based on his recent output his long shots could be +1.

He rarely goes for challenges and even though he does put in the miles and track back opponents, he's often half-hearted in harrying them, not unlike Eriksen in this regard, sticking just to denying passing lanes. He also doesn't seem to be particularly fired up when the team is chasing a result with Poch often subbing him in these instances, so all in all this makes me fully agree with your ratings for aggression, bravery, determination and workrate.

Sometimes he is trying to make one dribble too many, but it feels to me it's less out of selfishness and more due to poor decision-making, so his decisions and teamwork are also in good order.

I also agree with your assessment that he's an intelligent player, which is evident not only in his superb movement, but also in the way he closes down, always looking to think one step ahead and preemptively move to where the opponent will play the ball. Yet rated at only 13, his anticipation is in fact lower than the PL average of 13.26 according to the in-game reports, so something like 15 for anticipation would be more fitting for a player of Son's mould.

His passing accuracy is surprisingly high for an attacking player, so him being rated the same as teammate Lucas Moura(12) and much lower than Erik Lamela(16) is unjustified in my view, considering they play in the same system and have similar numbers of passes, long pass attempts or key passes. I suggest increasing his passing to 14, perhaps giving him a Plays Short Passes PPM, but either way, with his 12 vision and 13 decisions he's at no risk of becoming a playmaker.

But where I feel his attributes fail the most in reflecting his real life ability is dribbling, not the dribbling attribute itself, but the overall combination of attributes relevant to the success of a dribble. Son's attributes affecting the action of dribbling are markedly lower than other players who I feel they're in the same tier as him. If it can be argued that Mane is somewhat on the upper bounds of Son's league in terms of overall effectiveness, I have picked for comparison 5 players who are playing for top 6 teams and who are either level with him or arguably on the lower bounds of his tier. These players are, in no particular order: Pedro, Martial, Mahrez, Shaqiri, Iwobi.

  Successful per 90 Total per 90 Success % Dribbling Technique Agility Balance Flair Acceleration
Son 2 3.2 62.50% 15 15 14 11 13 15
Pedro 2.1 3 70.00% 13 15 18 14 15 16
Martial 1.7 3.5 48.57% 19 16 16 15 19 18
Mahrez 1.5 2.3 65.22% 17 17 17 15 17 15
Iwobi 2.3 4.1 56.10% 15 15 15 14 15 14
Shaqiri* 0.5 1.4 35.71% 15 15 17 17 17 15

*Shaqiri's attributes may seem farcical at face value, but if you use 17/18 season numbers when he's played extensively at Stoke they become more reasonable with 1.2 successful dribbles per 90, 2 total per 90, for a 60% success rate.

Now, their respective team's tactical style certainly plays a part, as well as players hitting a purple patch or a slump in form. For instance, this season Mahrez is making less than half his dribbles per 90 compared to his time at Leicester(success rate improved significantly, though).

I also realize that numbers do not tell the whole story and watching a player in action is key for adding context a lot of the times. Sticking with Son as an example, watching him play you notice how he sometimes tries to beat his man or gain an edge from the first touch of the ball, which is more a more technically demanding, high risk - high reward move that explains some of his relatively high number of poor touches(2.8) as well as why they appear to have doubled over the course of his career(he averaged around 1.5 poor touches in his Bundesliga years, then going from 1.8 to 2.3 to 2.5 and now 2.8 over his fourth season in the ELP). The numbers of his teammate Erik Lamela are on the other hand much better, with 1.6 poor touches per 90, so you'd be tempted to think his first touch is that much better. Watching the latter play, though, it looks to me he's simply not as audacious when receiving the ball, often taking multiple touches to bring the ball under control before looking to play it.

So where do I feel that Son's dribbling ability is underrated? The jury is still out on this one. The numbers do point that he is underrated, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is. I'm inclined to think it's acceleration, balance and flair, but don't quote me on this one.

After much rummaging through stats, this is how I envision his profile. It would put him at CA of 161, which is reasonable for a 1st teamer of the 3rd placed(for now) PL team and CL quarter finalist, who's on his 3rd season hitting double digits in goals.

image.thumb.png.e277a25ced7af6816439fe9f30d3d51e.png

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Posted (edited)

Passing-triangle obsessive Sarri is set to 17 for directness in the database.

Based on his approach with Chelsea this looks more like a typo rather than a true value, especially with him also (far more logically) having high values for other aspects that tend to encourage more direct football (attacking, tempo) in the ME (I'm aware he also has "play out of defence" and "works ball into the box" set, but I'm not sure that cancels out the John Beck approach to getting the ball to forwards asap!)

There's also probably a decent case for setting him to have a preference for a DLP as a tactical role, based on his well established fondness for playing through Jorginho (who you could make a case for being on his favoured personnel list)

Edited by enigmatic

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On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 18:06, LDH said:

Is there anyone in charge of AFC Bournemouth? There are many inaccuracies in terms of the staff as some have been moved around and many are missing. I'm a fan of the club that has just picked up the game and I would love to speak to the AFC Bournemouth researcher if possible to help out with just these few things. 

If there are "many inaccuracies" then please post them here, with proof of the errors, and we can progress from there. 

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On 10/03/2019 at 18:06, LDH said:

Is there anyone in charge of AFC Bournemouth? There are many inaccuracies in terms of the staff as some have been moved around and many are missing. I'm a fan of the club that has just picked up the game and I would love to speak to the AFC Bournemouth researcher if possible to help out with just these few things. 

Hi there, I have recently been appointed as researcher for AFC Bournemouth, any inaccuracies you spot please flag up and we can work to get them corrected asap.

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On 07/03/2019 at 20:13, Rockywhu said:

West Ham 

Not a bad Winter update but I a few things I've noticed that I don't think are accurate. 

Wilshere had a 16 pass before the update and now it's gone down to 14... why ?

He is a very good passer and think from what I've seen down the years it's too low.

Also I don't think Fabianski has a good enough command of area and his one on ones should be higher than 14 as he's saved us many times this season 1 v 1 

 

Hi @Rockywhu thanks for the feedback.

Wilshere for me has declined over the years, sadly the injuries have not helped. I thought the few games he did play for us his passing was below par so lowered the rating accordingly. Perhaps he was not fully fit or a bit rusty. Hope to see more of his games (if he ever plays for us again) and will reassess his ratings.

Fabianski is one of our top rated players, his command of area is suitable I feel and one on ones too. I increased his reflexes and other stats I thought relevant but the reality is I think we've only had 5 clean sheets this year (of course the defense have to take some blame too) so I didn't really feel that I could increase his stats too much. Whilst I do think he's been excellent this year and has been the best keeper we've had for a for a long while I'd still need to take a bit more time to look at him and then really look at the stats for the next update in the summer.

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I believe Marina Granovskaia having Abramovich as favourite "teammate" is probably a mistake. She has his trust, but possibly it could be as "friend" since she has contact with him back to the the days of Oil Company and other business (before he bought Chelsea). And I notice Abramovich doesn't have her on his favourite staff list, which I believe should be the case.
An article that has more info about it (it's old but has detail about the relevant things): https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/chelsea/10121949/Forget-Jose-Mourinho.-Is-Marina-Granovskaia-the-real-Special-One-at-Chelsea.html

 

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Hard to argue that Mane is overrated with the form he's in lately.  If you disregard penalty goals he's the (joint) top scorer in the league.

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Son having pace at 15 is so wrong. His top speed is ridiculous. Should be at 17 at least. He is taller, but damn is he fast.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Preveza said:

Son having pace at 15 is so wrong. His top speed is ridiculous. Should be at 17 at least. He is taller, but damn is he fast.

Taller players are often faster. Long legs, big stride. Short players can be deceptively slow. Illusion of pace caused by little legs moving quickly.

There's very little practical difference between Pace 15 and 17 in the match engine afaik. In kph I think Pace 1 is faster than Pirlo ever bothered to run. 20 wouldn't catch Bolt. Seen Son's top speed quoted as 32kph (from specific matches, don't know what he's clocked at generally) which is a good step down from the top end sprinters in the game. Adama Traore has hit 37, Bale 36.9. Dan James and Mbappe 36. Walcott and Sane around 35.5 (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/03/15/daniel-james-interview-comparing-kylian-mbappe-bit-crazy/)

Kyle Walker is sub-35 and has a Pace rating of 18 in game.

Pace 15 is pretty quick but too many players seem to be rated as if a value less than 10 is horribly slow. Players all become compressed within a "safe" 11-14 range.

Edited by swansongs

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I have moved to tottenham and have been here 5 years...i have won the league twice, champions league, done a treble but for some reason MY CLUB STATURE KEEPS REDUCING!!! i have never had this problem before....if you could please HELP!! 
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

As you can see my confidence stat say very secure..and that's just because i started the league this season

you can see the club stature is 38% and but i've won alot of trophies for them...why is it like this

Screenshot (41)_LI.jpg

Screenshot (44)_LI.jpg

Screenshot (45)_LI.jpg

Screenshot (46)_LI.jpg

Screenshot (48).png

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Posted (edited)

Emerson (Chelsea) has been payed 20M Euro, not 10.

Edited by RockyFra

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@B_en_n

Post that over in the All other Game play, If you can upload a save of that as well It'd help them a lot. This is more for data ammendment requests here.

Otherwise, I can't help but notice 1 stand out - Club Stature is in decline and you only have Zurich as an Affiliate?

I manage spurs in game and ask repeatedly for - Stature (USA\Asia are my normal picks), then youth intake. I tend to make 2 requests per year for this one of each. Season 1 I get at least one, Season 2 I normally get both.

Where are you pre-seasoning as well? On International years, I pre-season at home, the other years, I tour USA\Asian Countries.

I run my saves for over a decade, club stature always increases.

 

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Posted (edited)

Most of the Tottenham Hotspur squad for the 2014-15 season do not have the Carabao Cup in their Achievements/Milestones. Mauricio Pochettino has it, but none of the players.

They were runners-up against Chelsea on 1st March 2015.

 

And a similar issue is apparent with the 2017-18 Chelsea squad. The players (and Conte) don't have the Community Shield in their milestones, despite finishing runners up against Arsenal on 6th August 2017.

Edited by Tempo-
Made correction about portion of Tottenham players

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I was looking more closely at Newcastle's 2nd team today and noticed that Liam Gibson does not have Lewis Gibson (now at Everton) listed as brother. But Lewis has Liam listed as brother.

I don't think Liam would tell his younger brother he isn't part of the family anymore, especially since he supported him throughout his illness. (if anyone reading these forums is interested I highly recommend reading his inspiring story).

Can you guys fix this in the next update for me? ;) 

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It's my third season! I saved my progress in Cloud! One day, I opened the game and it asks me to make a profile for a manager! Then I skipped it and it turns to a default manager face. I tried to load the game but it said that "The save game could not be loaded"

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21 hours ago, Vinh Chu said:

It's my third season! I saved my progress in Cloud! One day, I opened the game and it asks me to make a profile for a manager! Then I skipped it and it turns to a default manager face. I tried to load the game but it said that "The save game could not be loaded"

post this in bugs section, not in DATABASE ISSUES.

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Posted (edited)

@tomlcfc Leicester's attractiveness is 10 which I feel is slightly harsh, especially when Derby's is also 10. 

 

 

 

 

Bournemouth's is 11, the same as...

 

 

 

 

Blackburn :lol:

Edited by Fosse

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8 hours ago, Fosse said:

@tomlcfc Leicester's attractiveness is 10 which I feel is slightly harsh, especially when Derby's is also 10. 

 

 

 

 

Bournemouth's is 11, the same as...

 

 

 

 

Blackburn :lol:

You mean Leicester as a city, right?

As far as I'm aware I have no involvement in that figure as it's regarding the city's data rather than the club - hopefully Pete/Dean can advise on whether that should be changed.

Hard not to be biased but I'd certainly agree with you - we're better than that! :)

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On 28/03/2019 at 16:28, Tempo- said:

Most of the Tottenham Hotspur squad for the 2014-15 season do not have the Carabao Cup in their Achievements/Milestones. Mauricio Pochettino has it, but none of the players.

They were runners-up against Chelsea on 1st March 2015.

 

And a similar issue is apparent with the 2017-18 Chelsea squad. The players (and Conte) don't have the Community Shield in their milestones, despite finishing runners up against Arsenal on 6th August 2017.

Cheers, I'll make sure the players in the match day squad that day have it in their bio going forward.

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With all my respect for hard work of research...I always confused why Arsenal's players so quickly especially Bellerin and Aubameyang. Today I read news about top10 quick players of EPL and there are no one player of Arsenal. Hope it will impact in research for FM20

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2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

With all my respect for hard work of research...I always confused why Arsenal's players so quickly especially Bellerin and Aubameyang. Today I read news about top10 quick players of EPL and there are no one player of Arsenal. Hope it will impact in research for FM20

Hello, I use my eyes as much as data like this, and Aubameyang and Bellerin are both extremely quick.  In past speed tests carried out by the club they have been verified as such.  A couple of years back Phil Jagielka and Maya Yoshida were clocked as the quickest players (or two of the quickest players) in the Premier League, probably because they were in a small group of players able to hit their maximum speed due to a long sprint without the ball.  Data like this is helpful, so please send the link to the article you mention so I can take a look, but it isn't the only deciding factor.

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Posted (edited)
3 часа назад, Dan Ormsby сказал:

Hello, I use my eyes as much as data like this, and Aubameyang and Bellerin are both extremely quick.  In past speed tests carried out by the club they have been verified as such.  A couple of years back Phil Jagielka and Maya Yoshida were clocked as the quickest players (or two of the quickest players) in the Premier League, probably because they were in a small group of players able to hit their maximum speed due to a long sprint without the ball.  Data like this is helpful, so please send the link to the article you mention so I can take a look, but it isn't the only deciding factor.

 

https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/443042/ten-fastest-premier-league-players-this-season/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-leagues-fastest-players-201819-16163640

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1130585/Fastest-footballer-Premier-League-fastest-players-Man-United-Liverpool-speed-footballers

 

Concerning your answer I noticed the article from 08/24/2018

auba.jpg?strip=all&w=502&quality=100

https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/418192/arsenal-speed-test-sokratis-aubameyang/

I want to clarify my opinion - in last two years (without season 18/19) Arsenal was 6th IRL and much better in a lot of my saves. The most popular AI result was Chl winner and EPL winner in 1st season in FM17
When I tried to investigate this I noticed two points - overpowered Ozil and extraquick few players which much faster opponents. Their speed advantage give them key point in rivals
I realize that you much better know Arsenal and Research work so my raised case is not a charge or something else. After I read this article about fastest footballer in the Premier League, I remembered this case and came here

Edited by Novem9

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Feel like Leicester's key core of young players: Maguire, Ndidi, Chilwell and Maddison need a look

I'd of thought they'd be of a slightly higher CA given interest from the likes of the big 6 clubs.

It bothers me that players tend to only get upgrades after their big moves to the bigger clubs.

Maguire at CA147, PA153 despite interest from City and United seems off to me - would've thought he'd be somewhere around the CA155, PA160 level to better reflect his abilities and transfer value.

Aerial ability is the area he definitely lacks in in-game ratings with 17 heading and 15 jumping reach being just slightly above most other centre backs in the prem despite it being a noticeable strength of his seems off to me. Dribbling and first touch should both be 13 or 14 for me too and wouldn't be against a positioning drop. I think he's quicker than reflected in game as well - I'd suggest 11 for acc and agility with 13 for pace (+1 on current numbers)

The others I think have the right spread of attributes just probably need a +1 to the key attributes in their respective roles.

Maddison finished the season playing out on the left more too and had previous slotted in as a MC rather than an AMC so those positions should be added.

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Long post alert!

So for my latest game which I started on the winter patch, I trawled through most of the Premiership sides and made some changes to player abilities to reflect what I feel is reality. 

Man Utd 

I find that they continue to over-perform in the game even under Ole, like they did under Jose. Every single season I have played of FM, United are competing for the title. In reality, we are clearly miles behind the best squads in the league. Right now if you made a combined 11 from United & Leicester, you would actually put more Leicester players in. 

Coming to specifics, 

Pogba at 174 CA is too high IMO, needs to be brought down just a bit. Specifically consistently and long shots (17) definitely doesn't match up to reality.

Sanchez is at 157 CA, should be below 150.

Martial is at 156 CA, should be below 150.

Lukaku is at 155 CA, should be a few points lower.

Mata is at 152 CA, he performs amazing in the game every single time while in reality he cant make the squad and will probably be let go, should be at least 10 points lower.

Lingard is at 152 CA, should be around 145 to reflect true ability.

The rest I believe are fine. You could argue about De Gea as well based on this season but can also put that down to a poor run of form. 

Man City

They have the opposite problem, IRL the best team probably ever in the Premier league, in the game usually struggling to compete.

Although I think the City ratings are pretty much spot on except for a few key players.

Sterling at 164 CA, in reality now one of the best  players in the league & the world, should be at least 10 points higher. I made him 174 in my game and his productivity is still not as good as IRL but at least its closer.

Bernardo Silva again has made big strides and should be a 170+ player for sure, in the game he's 166 CA and PA is capped at 170. 

Ederson is rated as 164 CA, definitely should not be 15 points off De Gea given he's considered one of the world's best.

Conversely, Kompany I believe is over-rated at 162 CA but this doesn't make a big difference in the game-play.

Chelsea

Would say their ratings are fairly accurate overall, maybe only Azpi needs to be bumped up from 149 CA, he is definitely one of the best players in their squad.

Arsenal

Their squad is definitely over-rated, in the game usually they are competing for the league which is very far from IRL. Biggest issues I see are

Ozil at 160 CA is very productive in the game especially with his attribute spread, so should be knocked down to the 150-154 range.

Mkhitaryan at 155 CA again very good in the game & better than reality, should be around 10 less. 

Same with Koscielny who is 156 CA in the game. The rest seem fine for the most part.

Spurs

Biggest issue here is Son being criminally under-rated at 157 CA, he never delivers in the game. There is no reason he should be so far behind other top PL wingers. Should be bumped up by 10 points for sure to bring closer to real life.

Can make a case for Alli being over-rated basis last 2 seasons, at 164 CA. 

Ben Davies should receive a small  CA boost to take him to same level as Rose, he always gets listed and moves to a smaller club in the game.

Liverpool

I believe Salah is a little over-rated in the game by a few points but I am sure that would be a contentious debate. However I have noticed his actual in-game productivity is usually not that high despite amazing attributes.

Henderson, Milner & Lallana should all be brought under 150 CA in my opinion, they are much too strong in the game.  Ability wise, Fabinho & Gini should be the best mids. 

The rest I think is pretty spot on.

Thoughts?

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49 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

Long post alert!

So for my latest game which I started on the winter patch, I trawled through most of the Premiership sides and made some changes to player abilities to reflect what I feel is reality. 

Man Utd 

I find that they continue to over-perform in the game even under Ole, like they did under Jose. Every single season I have played of FM, United are competing for the title. In reality, we are clearly miles behind the best squads in the league. Right now if you made a combined 11 from United & Leicester, you would actually put more Leicester players in. 

Coming to specifics, 

Pogba at 174 CA is too high IMO, needs to be brought down just a bit. Specifically consistently and long shots (17) definitely doesn't match up to reality.

Sanchez is at 157 CA, should be below 150.

Martial is at 156 CA, should be below 150.

Lukaku is at 155 CA, should be a few points lower.

Mata is at 152 CA, he performs amazing in the game every single time while in reality he cant make the squad and will probably be let go, should be at least 10 points lower.

Lingard is at 152 CA, should be around 145 to reflect true ability.

The rest I believe are fine. You could argue about De Gea as well based on this season but can also put that down to a poor run of form. 

Man City

They have the opposite problem, IRL the best team probably ever in the Premier league, in the game usually struggling to compete.

Although I think the City ratings are pretty much spot on except for a few key players.

Sterling at 164 CA, in reality now one of the best  players in the league & the world, should be at least 10 points higher. I made him 174 in my game and his productivity is still not as good as IRL but at least its closer.

Bernardo Silva again has made big strides and should be a 170+ player for sure, in the game he's 166 CA and PA is capped at 170. 

Ederson is rated as 164 CA, definitely should not be 15 points off De Gea given he's considered one of the world's best.

Conversely, Kompany I believe is over-rated at 162 CA but this doesn't make a big difference in the game-play.

Chelsea

Would say their ratings are fairly accurate overall, maybe only Azpi needs to be bumped up from 149 CA, he is definitely one of the best players in their squad.

Arsenal

Their squad is definitely over-rated, in the game usually they are competing for the league which is very far from IRL. Biggest issues I see are

Ozil at 160 CA is very productive in the game especially with his attribute spread, so should be knocked down to the 150-154 range.

Mkhitaryan at 155 CA again very good in the game & better than reality, should be around 10 less. 

Same with Koscielny who is 156 CA in the game. The rest seem fine for the most part.

Spurs

Biggest issue here is Son being criminally under-rated at 157 CA, he never delivers in the game. There is no reason he should be so far behind other top PL wingers. Should be bumped up by 10 points for sure to bring closer to real life.

Can make a case for Alli being over-rated basis last 2 seasons, at 164 CA. 

Ben Davies should receive a small  CA boost to take him to same level as Rose, he always gets listed and moves to a smaller club in the game.

Liverpool

I believe Salah is a little over-rated in the game by a few points but I am sure that would be a contentious debate. However I have noticed his actual in-game productivity is usually not that high despite amazing attributes.

Henderson, Milner & Lallana should all be brought under 150 CA in my opinion, they are much too strong in the game.  Ability wise, Fabinho & Gini should be the best mids. 

The rest I think is pretty spot on.

Thoughts?

Agree with your rationale for your changes I just think you're being a little heavy handed. If you halved the adjustments I think you'd be about right

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On 24/05/2019 at 07:38, Samaroy said:

Feel like Leicester's key core of young players: Maguire, Ndidi, Chilwell and Maddison need a look

I'd of thought they'd be of a slightly higher CA given interest from the likes of the big 6 clubs.

It bothers me that players tend to only get upgrades after their big moves to the bigger clubs.

Maguire at CA147, PA153 despite interest from City and United seems off to me - would've thought he'd be somewhere around the CA155, PA160 level to better reflect his abilities and transfer value.

Aerial ability is the area he definitely lacks in in-game ratings with 17 heading and 15 jumping reach being just slightly above most other centre backs in the prem despite it being a noticeable strength of his seems off to me. Dribbling and first touch should both be 13 or 14 for me too and wouldn't be against a positioning drop. I think he's quicker than reflected in game as well - I'd suggest 11 for acc and agility with 13 for pace (+1 on current numbers)

The others I think have the right spread of attributes just probably need a +1 to the key attributes in their respective roles.

Maddison finished the season playing out on the left more too and had previous slotted in as a MC rather than an AMC so those positions should be added.

I'm not really sure where you get this 'interest' from big 6 clubs from - you're either reading the tabloids or clearly have some sort of insider knowledge I don't!

I'm inclined to agree with you on certain restrictions of the CA system, but we have to be honest that this is an extremely inconsistent team who scraped into 9th on the basis of a new manager bounce this season, and hence we all have to be very realistic with what we do. If a player hasn't proved they are capable of cutting it in the Champions League, then how do we rate those players at that level? I'm always trying to look beyond the hype and focus on what I see on the pitch, I hope you appreciate that.

Maguire - I really don't think he's that great. His limitations are obvious - he is slow (I suggest you look at some of the goals we've conceded, the likes of those at Dean Court this season are a classic), and is not the greatest natural defender you've seen. Jonny Evans has, by some distance, had the better season for us.

I'd struggle to give Maguire the dribbling and first touch of most Championship wingers really - he is competent on the ball but really not that good!

As part of the update we're working on now, everyone has had some changes, including alterations to Maddison's positioning like you suggest, cheers.

The others (Chilwell, Ndidi etc.) I can't really say much about without any reasoning as to a) what attributes you think might be a bit off and b) why you think that. There's a reason why, for example, even the tabloids aren't linking Ndidi to bigger clubs - and that's because he is so, so limited on the ball.

I appreciate your feedback though - any suggestions for improvement to our data is always a good thing!

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On 24/05/2019 at 08:58, karanhsingh said:

Man City

They have the opposite problem, IRL the best team probably ever in the Premier league, in the game usually struggling to compete.

Although I think the City ratings are pretty much spot on except for a few key players.

Sterling at 164 CA, in reality now one of the best  players in the league & the world, should be at least 10 points higher. I made him 174 in my game and his productivity is still not as good as IRL but at least its closer.

Bernardo Silva again has made big strides and should be a 170+ player for sure, in the game he's 166 CA and PA is capped at 170. 

Ederson is rated as 164 CA, definitely should not be 15 points off De Gea given he's considered one of the world's best.

Conversely, Kompany I believe is over-rated at 162 CA but this doesn't make a big difference in the game-play.

All the players you mentioned are no longer at those ratings except Kompany who was absolutely good enough to be about that high, IMO.

@tomlcfc I do agree somewhat regarding Maquire. He looks alittle out of place alongside his England colleagues IMO, without knowing how his CA is affected by lack of playing positions etc, obviously.

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23 hours ago, tomlcfc said:

I'm not really sure where you get this 'interest' from big 6 clubs from - you're either reading the tabloids or clearly have some sort of insider knowledge I don't!

I'm inclined to agree with you on certain restrictions of the CA system, but we have to be honest that this is an extremely inconsistent team who scraped into 9th on the basis of a new manager bounce this season, and hence we all have to be very realistic with what we do. If a player hasn't proved they are capable of cutting it in the Champions League, then how do we rate those players at that level? I'm always trying to look beyond the hype and focus on what I see on the pitch, I hope you appreciate that.

Maguire - I really don't think he's that great. His limitations are obvious - he is slow (I suggest you look at some of the goals we've conceded, the likes of those at Dean Court this season are a classic), and is not the greatest natural defender you've seen. Jonny Evans has, by some distance, had the better season for us.

I'd struggle to give Maguire the dribbling and first touch of most Championship wingers really - he is competent on the ball but really not that good!

As part of the update we're working on now, everyone has had some changes, including alterations to Maddison's positioning like you suggest, cheers.

The others (Chilwell, Ndidi etc.) I can't really say much about without any reasoning as to a) what attributes you think might be a bit off and b) why you think that. There's a reason why, for example, even the tabloids aren't linking Ndidi to bigger clubs - and that's because he is so, so limited on the ball.

I appreciate your feedback though - any suggestions for improvement to our data is always a good thing!

Really appreciate you getting back to me @tomlcfc and appreciate the hard work you put into this great game - however, I strongly disagree with the approach of just basing your ratings on what you see on the pitch. Interest from other clubs, pundit acclaim, rating websites such as Whoscored.com and your fellow researcher's ratings of similar players should offer additional insight into a players CA/PA and attributes.

Reading tabloids while I agree is a bit ludicrous - the wide spread reporting of Man City and United's interest in Maguire would seem to suggest (where there's this much smoke there has to be some fire) that they are interested - as the Man City researcher said - compared to his english national team counterparts he is quite underrated. I think you've hit the nail on the head in your description of Maguire's weaknesses yet rate him a 15 in positioning and 14 in teamwork suggesting he positions himself very well? In reality, he gets out of position up the pitch and doesn't have the speed to make up the ground. I'll concede I was a little bit ambitious suggesting he needs a speed boost. But he simply is a better overall player than you have him sat at the moment.

For his skill on the ball: (technique, dribbling, first touch)
Joe Gomez has 14 technique, 14 dribbling and 15 first touch
Vertonghan 15, 13, 15
Laporte 15, 12, 14
Kompany 14, 12, 14
Lovren 13, 11, 14
Johnny Evans is 14, 10, 15

Maguire sits at 13, 14, 12 which to me seems low here - I would say 13-14-14 would be more accurate when comparing the above. Currently at 12, his first touch is the same as Sean Morrison (?), Mangala and Christian Kabasele and lower than the likes of Matthias Jorgenson and Phil Jones.

For his aerial ability: (Heading, Jumping Reach, Strength) - aerials won per game in prem
Filip Benkovic has 18 heading, 18 jumping reach, 14 str - NA
Sebastian Prodl 18 15 17 - NA
Jannick Vestergaard 15 19 18 - 3.7 (23 games)
Kevin Long 17 16 17 - 3.3 (5 games)
Willy Boly 17 17 17 - 3.8 (36 games)

Harry Maguire - who dominated the world cup with 5.9 per game, and then had a solid premier league season with 3.8 - has 17 heading, 15 jumping reach (@ 194 cm) and 17 strength... Physical/Aerial presence you would surely agree is a strength of the lads... it just isnt reflected as such in game. Not asking for huge shifts here either - I think 18 heading and 17 jumping reach is fair, maybe 16 jumping reach if you really want to be harsh but strength should arguably be 18 in that case as you would seemingly be making the argument that he uses his body to out muscle players to the spot of the ball.

Finally - your opinion that "you really dont think hes that great" is fine, everyone is entitled to one. But...
1.Pretty much every tabloid in the land reported on manchester united's interest in Maguire last winter and Man City has been reported to like him this offseason to replace Kompany, again widely reported by nearly every journalist that covers the prem.
2. WhoScored.com had his rating for the season a 7.01, a 7.22 in the world cup - Laporte whom plays the left Cb role for Man City had a 7.05 but has a CA of 161, yes a different type of player but a 14 point CA diff is a bit much.
3. TransferMarkt rates him the same value (45m euros) as Rudiger (151ca), De Vrij (157ca) and Manolas (161ca). 
4. If Man City bought him - he would shoot up to 155+ instantly to reflect his ability with the other CBs in their squad. I'm not suggesting something this high for him but it just needs to be a factor in where you rate him for the game to be accurately reflected. Leicester is swatting interest from big english clubs in real life and therefore should also be in game - for that to be a reality you need to adjust his ratings to reflect this ability that real scouts for some of the biggest clubs seem to beleive he has.
5. Comparing him to current english national team Maguire: 147CA,  Stones 158CA, Joe Gomez 149CA.

Overall changes to Harry Maguire:
First Touch 12 to 14
Jumping Reach 15 to 17
Heading 17 to 18
Concentration 12 to 13 (12 seems low to me for an intl capped starting premier league CB, slight upgrade to 13 as I anticipate you coming back and saying his lack of concentration has lead to goals, true and 13 is still low for the prem.)
Positioning 15 to 14

CA 147 to 151
PA 153 to 157 to reflect your own thoughts (which I agree with) that he has about 6 points of growth in him.

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@tomlcfc

Onto Maddison:

https://www.90min.com/posts/6345618-gary-neville-compares-james-maddison-to-eden-hazard-after-impressive-season-at-leicester-city
http://www.sportbible.com/football/news-james-maddison-holds-a-very-impressive-stat-in-his-first-season-20190227
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-squad-2019-james-maddison-leicester-city-gareth-southgate-messi-hazard-a8824231.html

All of the above articles reference the fact Maddison per official stats created the most chances of any player in EUROPE'S BIG 5 LEAGUES

Yet here is his "creative" attributes in FM:

Maddison: 16 pass, 14 dribbling, 15 technique, 16 free kicks, 14 vision (!), 16 flair, 13 decisions, Whoscored had maddison's average rating at 7.20, 

Other Creative Players in the Prem:
Christian Erickson: 17p, 14d, 17t, 17fk, 16v, 13f, 17d (also underrated imo) - 7.08avr - 179CA
Dele Alli: 15p, 16d, 16t, 10fk, 15v, 17f, 13d - 6.95avr - 164CA
Jonjo Shelvey: 17p, 13d, 15t, 14fk, 18v, 13f, 14d - 6.80 - 135CA
Juan Mata: 17p, 13d, 15t, 14fk, 18v, 13f, 14d - 6.70avr - 151CA
Granit Xhaka: 19p, 12d, 17t, 12fk, 17v, 12f, 13d - 7.03avr - 146CA

Comparing to that list alone - let alone me going into further statistics, whoscored ratings, transfermarkt valuation and big 6 club interest - Maddison should be much higher across the board

My suggestion would be:
Passing +1 to 17
Dribbling +1 to 15
Technique +2 to 17
Free Kicks +1 to 17
Vision +2 to 16
Decisions +1 to 14

Maddison is also a very quick and nimble in a phone booth type player yet you have him at 13 acc, 15 agility and 15 balance. +1 to all of those would be more appropriate based on all of my viewing but at least +1 to acc.

CA 141 to 152
PA 160 to 165

Maddison has only had 1 year in the prem so I would understand your hesitancy to follow through on such a huge jump to his CA - If you were to see it through to around 148 I probably wouldn't argue with it but he is criminally low at the moment - 3 points higher than Grealish who plays in the championship.

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40 minutes ago, Samaroy said:

Really appreciate you getting back to me @tomlcfc and appreciate the hard work you put into this great game - however, I strongly disagree with the approach of just basing your ratings on what you see on the pitch. Interest from other clubs, pundit acclaim, rating websites such as Whoscored.com and your fellow researcher's ratings of similar players should offer additional insight into a players CA/PA and attributes.

Reading tabloids while I agree is a bit ludicrous - the wide spread reporting of Man City and United's interest in Maguire would seem to suggest (where there's this much smoke there has to be some fire) that they are interested - as the Man City researcher said - compared to his english national team counterparts he is quite underrated. I think you've hit the nail on the head in your description of Maguire's weaknesses yet rate him a 15 in positioning and 14 in teamwork suggesting he positions himself very well? In reality, he gets out of position up the pitch and doesn't have the speed to make up the ground. I'll concede I was a little bit ambitious suggesting he needs a speed boost. But he simply is a better overall player than you have him sat at the moment.

For his skill on the ball: (technique, dribbling, first touch)
Joe Gomez has 14 technique, 14 dribbling and 15 first touch
Vertonghan 15, 13, 15
Laporte 15, 12, 14
Kompany 14, 12, 14
Lovren 13, 11, 14
Johnny Evans is 14, 10, 15

Maguire sits at 13, 14, 12 which to me seems low here - I would say 13-14-14 would be more accurate when comparing the above. Currently at 12, his first touch is the same as Sean Morrison (?), Mangala and Christian Kabasele and lower than the likes of Matthias Jorgenson and Phil Jones.

For his aerial ability: (Heading, Jumping Reach, Strength) - aerials won per game in prem
Filip Benkovic has 18 heading, 18 jumping reach, 14 str - NA
Sebastian Prodl 18 15 17 - NA
Jannick Vestergaard 15 19 18 - 3.7 (23 games)
Kevin Long 17 16 17 - 3.3 (5 games)
Willy Boly 17 17 17 - 3.8 (36 games)

Harry Maguire - who dominated the world cup with 5.9 per game, and then had a solid premier league season with 3.8 - has 17 heading, 15 jumping reach (@ 194 cm) and 17 strength... Physical/Aerial presence you would surely agree is a strength of the lads... it just isnt reflected as such in game. Not asking for huge shifts here either - I think 18 heading and 17 jumping reach is fair, maybe 16 jumping reach if you really want to be harsh but strength should arguably be 18 in that case as you would seemingly be making the argument that he uses his body to out muscle players to the spot of the ball.

Finally - your opinion that "you really dont think hes that great" is fine, everyone is entitled to one. But...
1.Pretty much every tabloid in the land reported on manchester united's interest in Maguire last winter and Man City has been reported to like him this offseason to replace Kompany, again widely reported by nearly every journalist that covers the prem.
2. WhoScored.com had his rating for the season a 7.01, a 7.22 in the world cup - Laporte whom plays the left Cb role for Man City had a 7.05 but has a CA of 161, yes a different type of player but a 14 point CA diff is a bit much.
3. TransferMarkt rates him the same value (45m euros) as Rudiger (151ca), De Vrij (157ca) and Manolas (161ca). 
4. If Man City bought him - he would shoot up to 155+ instantly to reflect his ability with the other CBs in their squad. I'm not suggesting something this high for him but it just needs to be a factor in where you rate him for the game to be accurately reflected. Leicester is swatting interest from big english clubs in real life and therefore should also be in game - for that to be a reality you need to adjust his ratings to reflect this ability that real scouts for some of the biggest clubs seem to beleive he has.
5. Comparing him to current english national team Maguire: 147CA,  Stones 158CA, Joe Gomez 149CA.

Overall changes to Harry Maguire:
First Touch 12 to 14
Jumping Reach 15 to 17
Heading 17 to 18
Concentration 12 to 13 (12 seems low to me for an intl capped starting premier league CB, slight upgrade to 13 as I anticipate you coming back and saying his lack of concentration has lead to goals, true and 13 is still low for the prem.)
Positioning 15 to 14

CA 147 to 151
PA 153 to 157 to reflect your own thoughts (which I agree with) that he has about 6 points of growth in him.

A great post in fairness.

What I will say firstly is that you can expect a reduction in CAs across the board next season for many clubs like us - we have what I think is an excellent new system of coming up with more accurate figures to reflect what is a huge disparity between the top sides and the rest of this division. I'd also suggest being very careful on things like WhoScored ratings with defenders - using stats accurately with regard to defenders is significantly more difficult than say forwards and wingers, because their success is on individual output rather than the success of the defender in a whole defensive line. The research effort does indeed stretch beyond what I see on the pitch - some great work by the research team with comparison spreadsheets this year means we've been able to look closely at how the league's best players rank up against each other, and if I thought something was out of line, I would flag it up. I find it a bit ridiculous, however, that I should take into consideration the views of pundits who still think we play counter-attacking football...

Your point on Maguire shooting up to say 155 CA is a little bit off too - @Sean Blinkhorn knows his stuff more than many of us, and I believe he hasn't altered Mahrez's CA at all since I last updated him at Leicester last summer, while Danny Drinkwater remains I believe at 142 CA, which has hardly changed from when he left us too. As I say, I think it's always important to ignore the hype around the player - I know it's a game of opinions, but I've seen Maguire probably 80 odd times in the last two years, most of those in the flesh, and I think his limitations would make it a real risk for any of the top clubs you've mentioned to spend big on him.

We really are not 'swatting away' big interest either - I was told at the time (believe this or not) last summer that Manchester United's 'bid' as reported by Sky and others for Maguire was merely a smokescreen for other targets, and this summer we are yet to see any concrete movement either. I'd really like to see that list of journalists you say are linking Maguire to Manchester City, because I could count them on one hand from what I've seen in the last fortnight.

-

But anyway, on to your appraisal of the stats and his ratings in FM.

Firstly I don't think I ever criticised his positioning, I think he's pretty handy at getting in the right place at the right time, which is seen in some of the great tackles and blocks we often see picked out in the press. His running up field really does not happen all too often, certainly not this season, and while my heart goes go into my mouth when he drives up the wing, I can't think of a time we've been punished for it.

I think your call on first touch is fair, but 14 is a pretty high number given he is a) a centre back b) a big lumbering lump who tends to take a big stride with the ball with his first touch and c) we don't really see him take balls down to feet and kill them dead to properly judge a good first touch.

On heading/jumping reach/strength: jumping reach is one we judge quite carefully based on a set of guidelines - he isn't the biggest jumper in the world purely because his height and upper body mean he doesn't need to jump that high. 15 sets him at just 'below average' for his height which I think is fair enough. 

-

I'll end by just repeating it's important to be so careful with rating players at a club like Leicester. In terms of our squad, Maguire is arguably not even in our top five most important players (Vardy/Ricardo/Tielemans/Chilwell/Maddison); he's a starting centre-back in an England team with the smallest pool of players in history (possibly wouldn't be starting anymore if Gomez hadn't got injured); and he's never been tested at a level above some average international sides at the World Cup and 100 or so games in the Premier League. 

As always, I will take your feedback into account. I'd never wish to be dismissive of anyone else's opinions, so thank you.

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4 minutes ago, tomlcfc said:

A great post in fairness.

What I will say firstly is that you can expect a reduction in CAs across the board next season for many clubs like us - we have what I think is an excellent new system of coming up with more accurate figures to reflect what is a huge disparity between the top sides and the rest of this division. I'd also suggest being very careful on things like WhoScored ratings with defenders - using stats accurately with regard to defenders is significantly more difficult than say forwards and wingers, because their success is on individual output rather than the success of the defender in a whole defensive line. The research effort does indeed stretch beyond what I see on the pitch - some great work by the research team with comparison spreadsheets this year means we've been able to look closely at how the league's best players rank up against each other, and if I thought something was out of line, I would flag it up. I find it a bit ridiculous, however, that I should take into consideration the views of pundits who still think we play counter-attacking football...

Your point on Maguire shooting up to say 155 CA is a little bit off too - @Sean Blinkhorn knows his stuff more than many of us, and I believe he hasn't altered Mahrez's CA at all since I last updated him at Leicester last summer, while Danny Drinkwater remains I believe at 142 CA, which has hardly changed from when he left us too. As I say, I think it's always important to ignore the hype around the player - I know it's a game of opinions, but I've seen Maguire probably 80 odd times in the last two years, most of those in the flesh, and I think his limitations would make it a real risk for any of the top clubs you've mentioned to spend big on him.

We really are not 'swatting away' big interest either - I was told at the time (believe this or not) last summer that Manchester United's 'bid' as reported by Sky and others for Maguire was merely a smokescreen for other targets, and this summer we are yet to see any concrete movement either. I'd really like to see that list of journalists you say are linking Maguire to Manchester City, because I could count them on one hand from what I've seen in the last fortnight.

-

But anyway, on to your appraisal of the stats and his ratings in FM.

Firstly I don't think I ever criticised his positioning, I think he's pretty handy at getting in the right place at the right time, which is seen in some of the great tackles and blocks we often see picked out in the press. His running up field really does not happen all too often, certainly not this season, and while my heart goes go into my mouth when he drives up the wing, I can't think of a time we've been punished for it.

I think your call on first touch is fair, but 14 is a pretty high number given he is a) a centre back b) a big lumbering lump who tends to take a big stride with the ball with his first touch and c) we don't really see him take balls down to feet and kill them dead to properly judge a good first touch.

On heading/jumping reach/strength: jumping reach is one we judge quite carefully based on a set of guidelines - he isn't the biggest jumper in the world purely because his height and upper body mean he doesn't need to jump that high. 15 sets him at just 'below average' for his height which I think is fair enough. 

-

I'll end by just repeating it's important to be so careful with rating players at a club like Leicester. In terms of our squad, Maguire is arguably not even in our top five most important players (Vardy/Ricardo/Tielemans/Chilwell/Maddison); he's a starting centre-back in an England team with the smallest pool of players in history (possibly wouldn't be starting anymore if Gomez hadn't got injured); and he's never been tested at a level above some average international sides at the World Cup and 100 or so games in the Premier League. 

As always, I will take your feedback into account. I'd never wish to be dismissive of anyone else's opinions, so thank you.

Fair rebuttal - I think the fact there's a new rating system largely puts to bed any debate from me as I will have to wait and see what that is and how we stack up against the rest - still find Maguire's aerial ability a bit of a concern compared to others though.

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1 minute ago, Samaroy said:

@tomlcfc

Onto Maddison:

https://www.90min.com/posts/6345618-gary-neville-compares-james-maddison-to-eden-hazard-after-impressive-season-at-leicester-city
http://www.sportbible.com/football/news-james-maddison-holds-a-very-impressive-stat-in-his-first-season-20190227
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/england-squad-2019-james-maddison-leicester-city-gareth-southgate-messi-hazard-a8824231.html

All of the above articles reference the fact Maddison per official stats created the most chances of any player in EUROPE'S BIG 5 LEAGUES

Yet here is his "creative" attributes in FM:

Maddison: 16 pass, 14 dribbling, 15 technique, 16 free kicks, 14 vision (!), 16 flair, 13 decisions, Whoscored had maddison's average rating at 7.20, 

Other Creative Players in the Prem:
Christian Erickson: 17p, 14d, 17t, 17fk, 16v, 13f, 17d (also underrated imo) - 7.08avr - 179CA
Dele Alli: 15p, 16d, 16t, 10fk, 15v, 17f, 13d - 6.95avr - 164CA
Jonjo Shelvey: 17p, 13d, 15t, 14fk, 18v, 13f, 14d - 6.80 - 135CA
Juan Mata: 17p, 13d, 15t, 14fk, 18v, 13f, 14d - 6.70avr - 151CA
Granit Xhaka: 19p, 12d, 17t, 12fk, 17v, 12f, 13d - 7.03avr - 146CA

Comparing to that list alone - let alone me going into further statistics, whoscored ratings, transfermarkt valuation and big 6 club interest - Maddison should be much higher across the board

My suggestion would be:
Passing +1 to 17
Dribbling +1 to 15
Technique +2 to 17
Free Kicks +1 to 17
Vision +2 to 16
Decisions +1 to 14

Maddison is also a very quick and nimble in a phone booth type player yet you have him at 13 acc, 15 agility and 15 balance. +1 to all of those would be more appropriate based on all of my viewing but at least +1 to acc.

CA 141 to 152
PA 160 to 165

Maddison has only had 1 year in the prem so I would understand your hesitancy to follow through on such a huge jump to his CA - If you were to see it through to around 148 I probably wouldn't argue with it but he is criminally low at the moment - 3 points higher than Grealish who plays in the championship.

Factually, there's absolutely nothing wrong with this post - it's just that if you believe we should have the lad at anywhere near 152 CA, you haven't seen him play all season!

Transfermarkt valuations are extremely unreliable for a start - Hamza Choudhury is at £900k for goodness' sake. Again, I really have no idea where you get this big 6 interest from? Who has even been linked with him?

Madders has had a good first season, but he went through a period between probably October and February of being pretty anonymous in most games, to the point where many of us were talking of the idea of Puel dropping him for a while. Like many of our players, he is rather one dimensional - if I had a pound for every time he lets the ball run across his body and turns I'd be a rich man, and he will be caught out for it next season once defenders catch on.

Fair enough shouts on his vision, technique and decisions which I've upgraded (IIRC) recently, but he is absolutely nowhere near the quality of players like Mata and Alli, even after the latter has had an awful season. 

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