Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community
Ed Hewison

[Scotland] (Official) League Specific Issues

Recommended Posts

Please post any specific issues for Scotland here. This is for any issue which does not relate to data and is for areas such as:

- Competition Rules (Leagues and Cups)
- Disciplinary Rules
- Transfer Rules

We would request you all to adhere to the following three point plan when posting in here:

- State what you think is specifically wrong in your league.
- State how you think it should be working.
- State reasons/proof for your corrections/improvements.

Please note that specific data issues for Scotland should be posted in the Database and Research Issues forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Playing as Hibernian starting on the earliest date 25/6/19, go to arrange friendlies and my team has already played one against Loco Moscow on the 23rd, I also have a training camp arranged in Blackburn Scotland, Hibernian don't have camps and have a state of the arts training complex of their own at East Mains East Lothian. Also there should be a testimonial for Paul Hanlon for 10 years service, it's not there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starting date of 25th June is just not right, it was changed last year, it means the earliest start is after the opening of the transfer window and a friendly has already been played, you need to start earlier to get any dealing organised and arrange proper friendlies, and get rid of bloody stupid training camps, we don't have them in Scotland unless it;s the OF teams, Scottish football doesn't have the money for these.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, jc1 said:

and get rid of bloody stupid training camps, we don't have them in Scotland unless it;s the OF teams, Scottish football doesn't have the money for these.

This is not correct, plenty of teams have training camps each year outside of Celtic and Rangers.

Here's a few examples from this year:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, jc1 said:

Starting date of 25th June is just not right, it was changed last year, it means the earliest start is after the opening of the transfer window and a friendly has already been played, you need to start earlier to get any dealing organised and arrange proper friendlies, and get rid of bloody stupid training camps, we don't have them in Scotland unless it;s the OF teams, Scottish football doesn't have the money for these.

My friend is a data analyst at Hibs and they 100% have training camps :S

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes but never away from east mains, same happened last year we were having camps in Prtugal and Australia at he same time as Betfred comp. Only time we go away is the winte break but never pre season, I'm friends with a few players and pre season is always at their training complex at East Mains 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rossums said:

These are all winter break camps, that was not the point, we're talking pre season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jc1 said:

These are all winter break camps, that was not the point, we're talking pre season.


They are not winter break, all but one of the links I posted were summer pre-season camps.

  • Kilmarnock (July) - Players start La Manga pre-season training camp
  • Dundee (July) - Neil McCann’s squad will head to the Algarve in early July for an intensive week of pre-season training in Portugal.
  • Aberdeen (June/July) - The Aberdeen squad have arrived in the south of Ireland for their pre-season training camp. 
  • Hearts (July) - Hearts’ pre-season programme will incorporate a training camp in Germany.
  • St Johnstone (June) - Tommy Wright has invited a Swiss striker to St Johnstone’s Austrian training camp

The only winter one I posted was Partick Thistle but they went over to England for their pre-season training camp anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Rossums said:


They are not winter break, all but one of the links I posted were summer pre-season camps.

  • Kilmarnock (July) - Players start La Manga pre-season training camp
  • Dundee (July) - Neil McCann’s squad will head to the Algarve in early July for an intensive week of pre-season training in Portugal.
  • Aberdeen (June/July) - The Aberdeen squad have arrived in the south of Ireland for their pre-season training camp. 
  • Hearts (July) - Hearts’ pre-season programme will incorporate a training camp in Germany.
  • St Johnstone (June) - Tommy Wright has invited a Swiss striker to St Johnstone’s Austrian training camp

The only winter one I posted was Partick Thistle but they went over to England for their pre-season training camp anyway.

I think the problem is most of these teams have poorish training facilities, not to say training camps don't happen but if you go to say Austria you should not be able to choose a friendly against a club in Scotland or Ireland, that would not happen. I started a game last night as Hibs and there was a training camp in Blackburn Scotland wtf why there of all places, last year I had a camp in Australia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't a league specific issue though.

If no teams in Scotland went on these training camps then it would be, but most do.

I see your point jc1 but you'd be better served putting that in the general issues section of the forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You'll also find some of these camps have friendlies scheduled in them with local teams, my point is pre set when you set up a game and cannot get out of them, the game doesn't allow you to either cancel or change the camp, also the start date is far too late, players are back and the window is already open when you start on the earliest date, they had to change this last year also.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Stuart Milne said:

This isn't a league specific issue though.

If no teams in Scotland went on these training camps then it would be, but most do.

I see your point jc1 but you'd be better served putting that in the general issues section of the forum.

Ta, can you get them to change the early start date as they got that wrong last year too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, jc1 said:

Ta, can you get them to change the early start date as they got that wrong last year too.

What is the start date, and what specifically is your issue with it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

What is the start date, and what specifically is your issue with it

Start date is 25th June, the team has already played a friendly and the transfer window opened at the start of that month, this happened last year also and they moved the early start date back to the beginning of the month. This means you have that extra 2-3 weeks to get organized, with this early date you have a week and a half and you're right into early Europa games, no time to schedule proper friendlies or get players in if needed.

Also the players are back a week before you take over, you need to be taking over at least 2 weeks before they come back to training.

Edited by jc1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think asking prices are a bit high again. 

Not entirely sure how it would be fixed but for instance Motherwell wouldn't be rejected 5m+ for Allan Campbell. 

Seems to be across all sides in Scotland, demanding outrageous fees. I know, on occasion, some clubs would do that. But transfer history in the SPFL show that players outside of Celtic and Rangers go rarely go for a lot of money.

Edited by Johnsey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The prize money in all four of the Scottish leagues are wrong. If you click on this link https://spfl.co.uk/news/record-prize-money-for-spfl-clubs and scroll down it tells you how much each club in that position will receive. For example the winner of the Premiership should receive 3.18m not 2.6m. Also Betfred Cup winner should receive 250,000 not 200,000 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jc1 said:

Start date is 25th June, the team has already played a friendly and the transfer window opened at the start of that month, this happened last year also and they moved the early start date back to the beginning of the month. This means you have that extra 2-3 weeks to get organized, with this early date you have a week and a half and you're right into early Europa games, no time to schedule proper friendlies or get players in if needed.

The idea though is for the game to start at the start of pre-season, and most teams started pre-season on or around the 25th of June.

If you start it earlier, then there are other problems that will have a knock on effect on season 2 and so on.

Take Hibs for example. Yes, they probably started their pre-season earlier because of the Europa League, but they also finished their previous season earlier. The game operates on a basis of when the competitions' season ends, not the individual clubs. Season 17/18 finished on May 20th.

If you want the entire Scottish league to start pre-season earlier because Hibs are in the Europa League (and to be fair, that is what you want; your concerns aren't related to Scotland as a whole) then you want pre-season to start for all teams a week or two weeks after the last game of the season.

And that's not how it should work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Stuart Milne said:

The idea though is for the game to start at the start of pre-season, and most teams started pre-season on or around the 25th of June.

If you start it earlier, then there are other problems that will have a knock on effect on season 2 and so on.

Take Hibs for example. Yes, they probably started their pre-season earlier because of the Europa League, but they also finished their previous season earlier. The game operates on a basis of when the competitions' season ends, not the individual clubs. Season 17/18 finished on May 20th.

If you want the entire Scottish league to start pre-season earlier because Hibs are in the Europa League (and to be fair, that is what you want; your concerns aren't related to Scotland as a whole) then you want pre-season to start for all teams a week or two weeks after the last game of the season.

And that's not how it should work.

Hibs players reported back on 18th June around the same time they do every year. This was reported last year and it was changed. Or we can simply ignore these things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jc1 said:

Hibs players reported back on 18th June around the same time they do every year. This was reported last year and it was changed. Or we can simply ignore these things.

And some teams reported back earlier than that, and others later.

Hibs don't do training camps and so the entire nation shouldn't have them, as per your earlier comment.

Ultimately things are based around an entire nation and not just one club.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hibs reported back last season on the 19th June, no Europa games to play. I'm done with this now as I can see it's going nowhere, gonna look for another site that isn't as nippy as this one.

In addition the summer transfer window starts on the 9th June 16 days before the earliest start on FM19 with the players already back and having played a friendly, usually you start around the end of May so as you can assess your squad, arrange friendlies etc before the players come back, they adjusted the dates last year when they realised the end of June was a bit late for an early start date.

Edited by jc1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, jc1 said:

I think the problem is most of these teams have poorish training facilities, not to say training camps don't happen but if you go to say Austria you should not be able to choose a friendly against a club in Scotland or Ireland, that would not happen. I started a game last night as Hibs and there was a training camp in Blackburn Scotland wtf why there of all places, last year I had a camp in Australia.

Why not? Dundee played Sunderland in Portugal, if two teams share a training camp placement of course they should be able to face each other. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Why not? Dundee played Sunderland in Portugal, if two teams share a training camp placement of course they should be able to face each other. 

I'm talking about playing an away friendly when at a camp. At the moment if I'm in say Portugal, I can arrange to play a team in Ireland, do you think if the team was in Portugal you'd up sticks with whole squad and go to Ireland for the day just to play Drohgda,  then go all the way back to Portugal to finish of the camp. Friendlies at a training camp should be either local teams or other teams based there for their camps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stuart Milne said:

Have you raised this issue in the relevant part of the forum?

Which part Stuart?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Betfred Cup Fixtures seem to be different and clash with international breaks 

Actual fixtures  in real life 2nd round Saturday 18th August/beta 2nd round fixture 25/9/18 (was re arranged due to international break other 2nd round fixtures were played on a mixture of dates

QF date actual fixture was week commencing 24/9/18/beta QF fixture 9/10/18 

 actual semi final dates weekend of 27/10/18 /beta fixtures look like they tie in as I've yet to play my QF fixture

actual final date 2/12/18 / I will re post if this ties in if i get there lol

I dont know how this ties in with the league fixtures I have checked celtic's fixtures and we have a midweek fixture on the 5/12/18 and 19/12/18 I presume these are the rearranged league fixtures. not sure when the  they would re arrange the fixture for the final as we haven't had the semi finals yet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jc1 said:

Which part Stuart?

Teams in training camps going to play friendlies in a different country while there is still a camp on.

That's not a Scottish issue, that's a general game issue that will need looked at.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stuart Milne said:

Teams in training camps going to play friendlies in a different country while there is still a camp on.

That's not a Scottish issue, that's a general game issue that will need looked at.

Cheers Stuart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's an issue with the post-split fixtures - pre-split fixtures end on 6/4/19, in real life the post-split fixtures start the next weekend but in the game they aren't starting until the 4/5/19 and finish too late (26/5/19).

 

Will beat Hearts in the Scottish Cup semi and find out when the final is due...

Edited by JGreen93

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, JGreen93 said:

There's an issue with the post-split fixtures - pre-split fixtures end on 6/4/19, in real life the post-split fixtures start the next weekend but in the game they aren't starting until the 4/5/19 and finish too late (26/5/19).

 

Will beat Hearts in the Scottish Cup semi and find out when the final is due...

Was just about to post this myself. The post split fixtures should have two midweek games, instead it's currently one midweek and 4 weekends. Meaning the last game is on 26/05/19 and the Scottish cup final gets pushed back to 01/06/19 which is far too late given some players in Scotland have contract's set to expire on 31/05/19. Scottish cup should be on the weekend of 26/05/18 and one extra split game should be played midweek. Date of final confirmed below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Scottish_Cup

 

ETA and as said above there is a massive gap between the last pre-split game and first post-split game. Usually there is only one free weekend then the post-split games start.

Edited by Yer Maw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

have the disciplinary problems in the cups in the last few versions been fixed?

has the new reserve setup been properly implemented ie rules, days/time of games?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/10/2018 at 16:57, Dingwalld924 said:

The Betfred Cup Fixtures seem to be different and clash with international breaks 

Actual fixtures  in real life 2nd round Saturday 18th August/beta 2nd round fixture 25/9/18 (was re arranged due to international break other 2nd round fixtures were played on a mixture of dates

QF date actual fixture was week commencing 24/9/18/beta QF fixture 9/10/18 

 actual semi final dates weekend of 27/10/18 /beta fixtures look like they tie in as I've yet to play my QF fixture

actual final date 2/12/18 / I will re post if this ties in if i get there lol

I dont know how this ties in with the league fixtures I have checked celtic's fixtures and we have a midweek fixture on the 5/12/18 and 19/12/18 I presume these are the rearranged league fixtures. not sure when the  they would re arrange the fixture for the final as we haven't had the semi finals yet

Quoting this in case it has been missed. League Cup fixtures clashing with international matches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Betfred cup Teams are drawn against each other in real life by Region , In my game Kilmarnock have Inverness and Elgin ,  which is in the far North of course. They should be playing Teams in the South  in the group stages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/10/2018 at 16:26, Stewart1111 said:

The prize money in all four of the Scottish leagues are wrong. If you click on this link https://spfl.co.uk/news/record-prize-money-for-spfl-clubs and scroll down it tells you how much each club in that position will receive. For example the winner of the Premiership should receive 3.18m not 2.6m. Also Betfred Cup winner should receive 250,000 not 200,000 

This is now under review. Cheers @Stewart1111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/10/2018 at 16:57, Dingwalld924 said:

The Betfred Cup Fixtures seem to be different and clash with international breaks 

Actual fixtures  in real life 2nd round Saturday 18th August/beta 2nd round fixture 25/9/18 (was re arranged due to international break other 2nd round fixtures were played on a mixture of dates

QF date actual fixture was week commencing 24/9/18/beta QF fixture 9/10/18 

 actual semi final dates weekend of 27/10/18 /beta fixtures look like they tie in as I've yet to play my QF fixture

actual final date 2/12/18 / I will re post if this ties in if i get there lol

I dont know how this ties in with the league fixtures I have checked celtic's fixtures and we have a midweek fixture on the 5/12/18 and 19/12/18 I presume these are the rearranged league fixtures. not sure when the  they would re arrange the fixture for the final as we haven't had the semi finals yet

Thanks @Dingwalld924. We have this under review already, but I have included what you have said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/10/2018 at 00:06, JGreen93 said:

There's an issue with the post-split fixtures - pre-split fixtures end on 6/4/19, in real life the post-split fixtures start the next weekend but in the game they aren't starting until the 4/5/19 and finish too late (26/5/19).

 

Will beat Hearts in the Scottish Cup semi and find out when the final is due...

Thanks for reporting this @JGreen93. It is currently under review.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21/10/2018 at 00:26, Yer Maw said:

Was just about to post this myself. The post split fixtures should have two midweek games, instead it's currently one midweek and 4 weekends. Meaning the last game is on 26/05/19 and the Scottish cup final gets pushed back to 01/06/19 which is far too late given some players in Scotland have contract's set to expire on 31/05/19. Scottish cup should be on the weekend of 26/05/18 and one extra split game should be played midweek. Date of final confirmed below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_Scottish_Cup

 

ETA and as said above there is a massive gap between the last pre-split game and first post-split game. Usually there is only one free weekend then the post-split games start.

This Scottish Cup issue is now being looked at. Cheers @Yer Maw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Druss said:

In the Betfred cup Teams are drawn against each other in real life by Region , In my game Kilmarnock have Inverness and Elgin ,  which is in the far North of course. They should be playing Teams in the South  in the group stages.

This is something we have already picked up and is under review as well, Cheers for reporting it though @Druss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having just finished my 2nd season with Berwick Rangers (which ended in promotion to League 1 through the playoffs :D) I have some observations which might not quite fit into the category of bugs but definitely seem like issues to me.

- State what you think is specifically wrong in your league.

1) Queen's Park went into administration during the last season. As I understand it they aren't in financial difficulty. Curious to find the cause I decided to start a save to look at the starting financial conditions of the club. Their finances are considered Insecure and they have a £4.7M loan which matures in 2021 with a repayment of £170K per month. What is this debt and where does it come from? It is the reason why they are projected to spend £2.31M by seasons end with a loss of £552K.

2) Queen's Park will be playing at lesser Hampden from 2020 onwards after agreeing to sell Hampden Park to the S.F.A. for £5M but the stadium move isn't shown on the facilities screen.

3) Scotland doesn't have any youth competitions for the U18 teams to play in.

- State how you think it should be working.

1) As I understand it Queen's Park is an amateur club and therefore don't pay wages so do not incur costs there although for some reason they are paying Reserve team manager Alan Mahood £400p/w on a full-time contract. Additionally, Queen's Park owns Hampden Park and charge the S.F.A. to use the ground which more than covers the cost of maintaining the stadium which will continue until the lease expires in 2020. They shouldn't have any debt as far as I am aware which should mean they never make losses leading them into administration.

2) Queen's Park should be listed as moving to Lesser Hampden in 2020.

3) If there are licensing reasons why you can't include the real youth structure in the game then that is understandable but speaking from a gameplay point of view there needs to be at least some sort of generic youth structure to ensure that the youth players play competitive games.

- State reasons/proof for your corrections/improvements.

1) An article stating that the SFA pays Queen's Park rent to use the stadium and also that it more than covers the upkeep of the ground.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42067136

2) An article stating that Queen's Park is moving to Lesser Hampden after selling Hampden Park for £5M. It also states that Queen's Park's only liabilities are a £19M loan due to the stadium redevelopment which will never have to be paid given that matches will continue to be played at the stadium. After 2020 the S.F.A. will be taking those liabilities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45344645

3) There is the Elite Youth League which was won last season by Hamilton U17s granting them a berth in the UEFA Youth League. I don't know how it's structured but it must be considered the legitimate top level if the winners are admitted into Europe. There is also the Scottish Youth Cup whose format and rules are given in the link below.

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish-cup/youth-cup/format-rules/

Edited by pheelf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, pheelf said:

3) If there are licensing reasons why you can't include the real youth structure in the game then that is understandable but speaking from a gameplay point of view there needs to be at least some sort of generic youth structure to ensure that the youth players play competitive games.

The new Project Brave Elite Leagues are in FM19, they're just not in the public beta release as the data used is older than the ongoing updating of the database for release. As mentioned in the Scottish Data forum, the reason for the late inclusion is because there was no information being given for how they were going to operate until the very last minute.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a point of order, I think it's very naive for people to think Queen's Park's staff - players and non players - work for free. They don't; they pay their staff a £1 per week 'wage' and then on top of that they pay 'expenses'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Giro said:

The new Project Brave Elite Leagues are in FM19, they're just not in the public beta release as the data used is older than the ongoing updating of the database for release. As mentioned in the Scottish Data forum, the reason for the late inclusion is because there was no information being given for how they were going to operate until the very last minute.

I'm glad to hear this and look forward to seeing it in the full game launch.

10 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

As a point of order, I think it's very naive for people to think Queen's Park's staff - players and non players - work for free. They don't; they pay their staff a £1 per week 'wage' and then on top of that they pay 'expenses'

I am aware of that but even when you factor that in, their expenditure compared to their turnover should mean they aren't ever in danger of going into administration. I was talking strictly from the point of view of the game. Are these 'expenses' represented in the game?

Notwithstanding whatever the wage situation the club has the reason for the club going into administration is the £4.7M loan which has to be paid in the space of 2.5 years. Is this a loan they actually have in real life? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From their last accounts...

£4,672,602 - Owed to Subsidiary Undertaking

Now I suspect that this might be wiped out by their sale of Hampden, so it's worth investigating and seeing if we can get this amended for the game's full release, but it might be too late.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, pheelf said:

Having just finished my 2nd season with Berwick Rangers (which ended in promotion to League 1 through the playoffs :D) I have some observations which might not quite fit into the category of bugs but definitely seem like issues to me.

- State what you think is specifically wrong in your league.

1) Queen's Park went into administration during the last season. As I understand it they aren't in financial difficulty. Curious to find the cause I decided to start a save to look at the starting financial conditions of the club. Their finances are considered Insecure and they have a £4.7M loan which matures in 2021 with a repayment of £170K per month. What is this debt and where does it come from? It is the reason why they are projected to spend £2.31M by seasons end with a loss of £552K.

2) Queen's Park will be playing at lesser Hampden from 2020 onwards after agreeing to sell Hampden Park to the S.F.A. for £5M but the stadium move isn't shown on the facilities screen.

3) Scotland doesn't have any youth competitions for the U18 teams to play in.

1.) This is now under review. 

2.) This is also under review, and I have also raised that they might be redeveloping Lesser Hampden in some way.

3.) This is a known issue. There will soon be one, it just didn't make the pre-release beta. Cheers for raising it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished my first season, and the commercial summary does not look accurate to me.

 

sponsorship  is only 4.4 m, and merchandise sales are only 5.84 m, only 34,143 shirts sold, and match day commercial and retail is only 2.3m

 

This is very low for a club of celtics size

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know if this belongs here or some place else, but I noticed this "IRN-BRU Cup" logo on my news and clicked on it out of curioisity. It slows screen flow dramaticly and also it don't drop down menus at all, in example as I tried to hover over "history" as I would've liked to see who has been "past winners." But it never drops down no matter how long I wait and also clickin forward or backward arrow on high left responds very very slowly if at all, sometimes you have to double or trible click to get somewhere. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎24‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:08, Ed Hewison said:

1.) This is now under review. 

2.) This is also under review, and I have also raised that they might be redeveloping Lesser Hampden in some way.

3.) This is a known issue. There will soon be one, it just didn't make the pre-release beta. Cheers for raising it. 

Hi Ed

Have these items been fixed in version 19.1.0?

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, gothenburg83 said:

Hi Ed

Have these items been fixed in version 19.1.0?

Thanks

I think this might have just made that update. If you start a new game you will be able to tell, because Queen's Park will have the stadium move set up on the Facilities page.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, AndyLove said:

I don't know if this belongs here or some place else, but I noticed this "IRN-BRU Cup" logo on my news and clicked on it out of curioisity. It slows screen flow dramaticly and also it don't drop down menus at all, in example as I tried to hover over "history" as I would've liked to see who has been "past winners." But it never drops down no matter how long I wait and also clickin forward or backward arrow on high left responds very very slowly if at all, sometimes you have to double or trible click to get somewhere. 

This appears to be a UI issue but I can't seem to reproduce what you are describing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...