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[ENGLAND] Bristol City Data Issues

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Please post any data issues related to Bristol City here.

As much of the data is subjective we’d ask that you respect everyone’s opinion and accept that the final decision is that of our club researchers and our heads of research.

We also request you please adhere to the following three point plan when posting in the data topics:

·        State what you think is specifically wrong with a particular piece of data.                             

·        State what you think the data should be.                       

·        State reasons/proof for your suggested corrections/improvements.                      

Please note that any non-data issues for Bristol City should be posted in the appropriate thread within the League Specific Issues Forum. This would include issues such as league scheduling and league rules.

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In 2015/16 City lost £13.2m. In 2016/17 City lost £3.2m. 

If City had a £16m transfer budget slooshing around just waiting to be spent, why wasn't it spent? 

Have you tested what happens later in the season (winter window) regarding transfer budgets there, please?

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2 hours ago, Gripper said:

In 2015/16 City lost £13.2m. In 2016/17 City lost £3.2m. 

If City had a £16m transfer budget slooshing around just waiting to be spent, why wasn't it spent? 

Have you tested what happens later in the season (winter window) regarding transfer budgets there, please?

Oh don’t get me started on our transfer failings (we’ve certainly tried to spend big it just never comes off), my point is just that we raised £16 million from transfers this summer alone and that’s not even slightly reflected in game. I get that you knock down first window transfer fees but even disregarding the background rich owner, we have £16m sloshing around somewhere at the club right now. 

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Have you tested what happens in the winter transfer window to your transfer budget?

The club cannot continue to lose £millions each season, hence having to sell players without the equivalent outlay to buy their replacements.

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20 minutes ago, Gripper said:

Have you tested what happens in the winter transfer window to your transfer budget?

The club cannot continue to lose £millions each season, hence having to sell players without the equivalent outlay to buy their replacements.

I haven’t no, only really checked into the beta just to have a look at City. 

Right but surely the transfer budget should still be higher than £2.5m? Just wondering how, with our rich owner and transfer profit this year, £2.5m was the arrived at sum. It’s always been clear, players sold or not, we’ve had the financial backing from Lansdowne (I destinctly remember the summer of the £9 million bids for Andre Gray and Dwight Gayle). FM never really seems to give us that accurate of a starting budget. 

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Korey Smith's injury is listed as 10-11 months. The update the club gave after his surgery indicated a 4-6 month lay off.

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/smith-undergoes-surgery/ 

I admit I was also puzzled by the transfer budget given the surplus in fees, approximately £26m in with a rough outlay of approximately £11m. 

17 hours ago, Gripper said:

In 2015/16 City lost £13.2m. In 2016/17 City lost £3.2m. 

If City had a £16m transfer budget slooshing around just waiting to be spent, why wasn't it spent? 

Have you tested what happens later in the season (winter window) regarding transfer budgets there, please?

As for why wasn't £16m spent, we were able to replace Reid with Andreas Weimann (started with 5 goals in 5 games) for £2m so £8m profit, Flint with Webster (scouts rate them as same star rating in game, so same standard for less money) for £3.5m, small profit and with Bryan we didn't need to spend money replacing as we have Lloyd Kelly already at the club and brought Dasilva in on loan as cover so £6.5m profit.

I don't think anyone is expecting Bristol City to start with £16m or even close, however 5 or 6 million could have been realistic given the money incoming plus Lansdown's financial backing. That budget would offer more flexibility (in game) to a club which isn't struggling financially. You point to the clubs losses the £3.2m loss and this summer will mean there is a very large cushion for FFP, any losses for the club Lansdown turns into equity. I don't know if its something the game takes into account but this season is the first where the club has 3 seasons of increased non matchday income from the stadium redevelopment which helps towards FFP. 

I'll post back when I get to the January window with regards to the budget, the above may come across as complaining but incase the tone comes across wrong its just attempted feedback.

 

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I've just reached January, original board aim was mid table finish. Top of the table, 7 points clear of 2nd, 14 points clear of 7th. Have £70k budget atm, even if I try changing it to promotion it only goes up by £10k. Pretty sure Lansdown would make funds available if City found themselves in this position to try ensuring promotion.

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3 minutes ago, hodge13 said:

I've just reached January, original board aim was mid table finish. Top of the table, 7 points clear of 2nd, 14 points clear of 7th. Have £70k budget atm, even if I try changing it to promotion it only goes up by £10k. Pretty sure Lansdown would make funds available if City found themselves in this position to try ensuring promotion.

Remembering that this is a beta version, you need to load your savegame and start a thread in the Transfers forum (https://community.sigames.com/forum/640-transfers-contracts-and-scouting/) so that the coders can look at that budget. When doing so, please note that Bristol City have underwriter sugar daddy status.

Given you have City so far clear, you could probably also do with discussing whether the game is too easy and whether you are using a tactic that makes it too easy, which it clearly is. 

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4 minutes ago, Gripper said:

Remembering that this is a beta version, you need to load your savegame and start a thread in the Transfers forum (https://community.sigames.com/forum/640-transfers-contracts-and-scouting/) so that the coders can look at that budget. When doing so, please note that Bristol City have underwriter sugar daddy status.

Given you have City so far clear, you could probably also do with discussing whether the game is too easy and whether you are using a tactic that makes it too easy, which it clearly is. 

Using one of the preset tactics that I've never used before 

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19 minutes ago, Gripper said:

Remembering that this is a beta version, you need to load your savegame and start a thread in the Transfers forum (https://community.sigames.com/forum/640-transfers-contracts-and-scouting/) so that the coders can look at that budget. When doing so, please note that Bristol City have underwriter sugar daddy status.

Given you have City so far clear, you could probably also do with discussing whether the game is too easy and whether you are using a tactic that makes it too easy, which it clearly is. 

Started a thread :thup:

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The Championship is quite easy to romp if you get going as there aren't the massive differences in quality & reputation that require mixing up your tactics to deal with different responses, as in the PL where you might face a parked bus one week and a full attacking assault from on of the top 6 the next). A winning formula stays winning for a long time when morale is high.

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1 hour ago, swansongs said:

The Championship is quite easy to romp if you get going as there aren't the massive differences in quality & reputation that require mixing up your tactics to deal with different responses, as in the PL where you might face a parked bus one week and a full attacking assault from on of the top 6 the next). A winning formula stays winning for a long time when morale is high.

Is this something you have read on here, or somewhere, or is it your observation from beta-testing? Has this observation been logged elsewhere in the forum? Clearly there is a problem if the Championship is "easy to romp". (Probably a question for another thread, but seeing as you are here...)

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45 minutes ago, Gripper said:

Is this something you have read on here, or somewhere, or is it your observation from beta-testing? Has this observation been logged elsewhere in the forum? Clearly there is a problem if the Championship is "easy to romp". (Probably a question for another thread, but seeing as you are here...)

I think what he means, Grip, is that the Championship is such a close league (just look at the current irl table) that’s it’s not hard to turn any team in the league into a title challenger, all you need is some decent signings and you’re up there. I’ve never had problems getting Bristol City out of the Championship on any edition. 

 

But where are we on the transfer budget? I think we’ve presented enough info to show that it’s wrong. For comparison Blackburn somehow have a budget of £12m, which is insane. I think Lansdown is definitely richer than the Venky’s. How do you guys arrive at these transfer budget figures? 

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1 minute ago, Goughy7 said:

I think what he means, Grip, is that the Championship is such a close league (just look at the current irl table) that’s it’s not hard to turn any team in the league into a title challenger, all you need is some decent signings and you’re up there. I’ve never had problems getting Bristol City out of the Championship on any edition. 

I've won it twice during testing with the starting Swansea kids. It doesn't take signings, just a decent tactic and momentum/morale.

Where in real life it's a madcap league where "anyone can beat anyone" means consistency is hard to come by for any side, in FM you'll either win win win or lose lose lose for weeks and months on end once your team is settled into form.

56 minutes ago, Gripper said:

Is this something you have read on here, or somewhere, or is it your observation from beta-testing? Has this observation been logged elsewhere in the forum? Clearly there is a problem if the Championship is "easy to romp". (Probably a question for another thread, but seeing as you are here...)

Just my observation from the beta. It's hardly different from how the game is most years, so not worth logging as a bug. The game has always had a strong snowball effect, it's simply more noticeable in a league without billionaire superpowers (or dead last expert bus-parkers) waiting to ruin your good run.

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Not sure where this belongs, but its well known amongst City that all selling transfers involve some sell on clause since the infamous Andy Cole saga, well Luke Ayling has just been sold for £8.5m, we sold him for approximately £300,000 but no sell on fee was given.

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11 minutes ago, hodge13 said:

Not sure where this belongs, but its well known amongst City that all selling transfers involve some sell on clause since the infamous Andy Cole saga, well Luke Ayling has just been sold for £8.5m, we sold him for approximately £300,000 but no sell on fee was given.

If it is well-known you will be able to point me in the direction of some proof, yeah? eg reports that, in recent sales of ex-BCFC players, the club has reported they made £x due to the sell-on, that sort of thing? Reported in the annual financial report?

We try to add sell-ons and clauses where possible, and certainly where reported. if you can point me in the direction of something concerning Ayling's sell-on, or anyone's, we'll add it. Similarly, if City have brought in players of their own, the club you bought them from will have sell-ons, yeah?

Which players have sell-on clauses missing in the game, and what % should those sell-ons be, please?

We're considering a BCFC transfer budget increase.

 

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For evidence we put them in:

20% on Bolasie https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/08/16/report-bristol-city-set-for-transfer-windfall-after-bolasie-tran/ also in Daily Mail https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3731798/Everton-closing-Yannick-Bolasie-Crystal-Palace-set-target-Liverpool-FC-striker-Christian-Benteke.html

Luke Freeman and Sam Baldock sell on clauses https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/exclusive-luke-freeman-sam-baldock-1844842

Media when Kodjia was linked away https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-leeds-united-kodjia-1765930

Comment from Mark Ashton about Kodjia which mentions sell on https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2016-08-30/jonathan-kodjia-leaves-bristol-city-for-aston-villa-in-massive-15-million-record-sale-for-the-club/

Looking for the financial report now for better evidence of it, asked someone who normally is good at finding the stuff. I don't think as a club we usually comment on it.

Its hard because City don't normally comment on sell on clauses unless it was like when Kodjia was sold because of being a record deal. We didn't comment when we made a substantial amount for Bolasie's sell on clause. The story about Andy Cole was that we sold him to Newcastle and then moved to Manchester United for £7m but we had no sell on clause, since then for any deal as far as I know we have a clause between 10%-20%.

I'll get back to you about the annual financial reports of sell on clauses for Bolasie and Adomah.

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37 minutes ago, Gripper said:

If it is well-known you will be able to point me in the direction of some proof, yeah? eg reports that, in recent sales of ex-BCFC players, the club has reported they made £x due to the sell-on, that sort of thing? Reported in the annual financial report?

We try to add sell-ons and clauses where possible, and certainly where reported. if you can point me in the direction of something concerning Ayling's sell-on, or anyone's, we'll add it. Similarly, if City have brought in players of their own, the club you bought them from will have sell-ons, yeah?

Which players have sell-on clauses missing in the game, and what % should those sell-ons be, please?

We're considering a BCFC transfer budget increase.

 

Here’s a mention of a 15% sell on for Luke Freeman (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/qpr-ready-sell-former-bristol-2079403.amp

15% seems our usual figure, it’s what we had on Bolasie and I think Adomah. I know you guys got it right with our sell on fee in regards to Kodjia. 

Edited by Goughy7

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Whilst it’s clear we made a lot of money from transfers this season I think we’d need to be careful about what budget is given, I seem to remember towards the end of the window it being reported we were only interested in loans - giving the impression we were not going to spend money. Also remember is being reported that this year is going to be more of a consolidation year with FFP in mind. 2.5 million is a decent budget to be left with after all the transfer dealings  we’d already done. The impression I get is we’re stock pilling the transfer cash in order to go big over one of the coming seasons. Having said that I would argue if it was put up 1-2 million 

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Indeed, His aim of making us self sustainable needs to be remembered - if we are to complete AND do that we will need to bank profits from transfers

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19 hours ago, swansongs said:

The Championship is quite easy to romp if you get going as there aren't the massive differences in quality & reputation that require mixing up your tactics to deal with different responses, as in the PL where you might face a parked bus one week and a full attacking assault from on of the top 6 the next). A winning formula stays winning for a long time when morale is high.

Well I finished on 91 points which is there or there abouts for winning the league, however 2nd finished on 78 which is a good 10 points below the average over the last few seasons. So doesn't seem like I'm well above more the other teams are below what should be standard. Perhaps the league is too even so to say and points taken off each other. Also Middlesbrough got relegated in my file...

Edited by hodge13

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On 18/10/2018 at 20:09, Philip Rolfe said:

Those are all short-term loans, something we do not traditionally include. We only include window-to-window loan deals.

Not sure if this changes anything but Jake Andrews & Jenneh Loans now extended until end of January.

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Thanks, but that's now too late to be included in the release, as the database was locked last night.

Janneh's loan started in September anyway.

I'm sure that, if playing as Bristol C manager, you will find a better loan for Andrews anyway!

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Just seen its too late now but for future reference the game has Ashton Gate with a capacity of 24,030 where in reality its 27,000. Requested a stadium expansion after first season in prem and its costing club £4.5m to expand to 27,000.

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1 hour ago, hodge13 said:

Just seen its too late now but for future reference the game has Ashton Gate with a capacity of 24,030 where in reality its 27,000. Requested a stadium expansion after first season in prem and its costing club £4.5m to expand to 27,000.

The capacity is as agreed with the EFL as part of our licensing agreement. They worked on figures provided to them by the clubs.

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Certainly does seem a bit strange give we were well above 24k for both league keep games against Man U and Man C.

Capacity is certainly 27k (without segregation reductions) so why according to the league we’re at thousands less is somewhat bizzare 

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Worth noting, the yealy account are out today. Don’t have a direct link but here’s the high level reporting.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/should-bristol-city-fans-worried-2172280 

Headlines are that the loses are up to 23 million this year, with wages up to 5 million (that’s all staff as well as directors). This does not include the sales we made on the summer but is a good indication that the transfer budget shouldn’t be a war chest. 

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Yeah very weird that capacity issue. We've actually had attendances higher than that 24,030 'limit' 6 times in the past year!

Edited by Robbie.Knox

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On ‎01‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 13:45, Barnzy said:

Worth noting, the yealy account are out today. Don’t have a direct link but here’s the high level reporting.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/should-bristol-city-fans-worried-2172280 

Headlines are that the loses are up to 23 million this year, with wages up to 5 million (that’s all staff as well as directors). This does not include the sales we made on the summer but is a good indication that the transfer budget shouldn’t be a war chest. 

Yeah never thought it should be a war chest, but Lansdown has always stated that money is there as long as the transfer is justified and won't put us over for FFP.

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On 26/10/2018 at 18:06, Gripper said:

The capacity is as agreed with the EFL as part of our licensing agreement. They worked on figures provided to them by the clubs.

Gripper - just been back over games this season, our attendance against Villa was higher than what is in the game, the capacity is 27000, I imagine in reality that’s reduced slightly for segregation and also to accommodate our singing section. But 24030 is certainly incorrect given we’ve had higher than that this season alone and the cup games again isn’t Man United and Man City we’re both over 26k. 

Confirmation of attendance for Villa game https://www.skysports.com/football/bristol-c-vs-a-villa/392655

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Just to give more information on this, Ive is paid 5 million to add new seats up to 27k , which obviously seems excessive given those seats are already there 😂

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Are you playing the beta database, Barnzy?

The release database has 27000 (used capacity 26419 to count for segregation)

 

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Is there a better place to put this? I'm currently in the 2024/25 season, Ashton Gate got expanded I think at the end of the 19/20 season and I've sold out pretty much every home game for the last 4 seasons. However despite the last expansion being a good 4/5 years ago there's no board request to expand the stadium again, only the option of build a new stadium which the board always says there's not a big enough support base. So I can't increase my support base despite selling out every week.

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It's all subjective but just to back the game up, I think £2.5m is a pretty accurate budget. We spent peanuts in the summer replacing more than £20m worth of outgoings, and they were three players who we knew would be leaving so it's not as though we had to find a replacement at short notice.

Anyway - few thoughts on the squad:

I don't know if George Dowling has a random PA but in my game he has a 4* potential, which seems a bit much. He looked impressive when he got his debut, but that was three years ago now and he's still playing Conference football.

Max O'Leary at the other end of the scale has impressed wherever he has been and is still exceptionally young for a goalkeeper, but I've not seen him with more than 2.5* potential.

Another one would be Tyreeq Bakinson, who we paid Luton £1.5m for as an 18-year-old and has made his BCFC debut in the season since. 2* PA on my game but with the reputation he had at Luton and the money City paid for him, that seems low. Doing well at Newport so hopefully that helps his case in the next DB update.

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On 20/11/2018 at 14:38, hodge13 said:

Is there a better place to put this? I'm currently in the 2024/25 season, Ashton Gate got expanded I think at the end of the 19/20 season and I've sold out pretty much every home game for the last 4 seasons. However despite the last expansion being a good 4/5 years ago there's no board request to expand the stadium again, only the option of build a new stadium which the board always says there's not a big enough support base. So I can't increase my support base despite selling out every week.

It’s been stated in its current state we wouldn’t be able to expand past 27000 unless the houses behind the ateyo are purchased - means that in game 27000 would be the max limit to expand and the only option would be to build a new stadium

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Mark Ashton just confirmed on the radio that we have an option to buy Dasilva from Chelsea. No idea what the pre-agreed fee is mind.

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On 01/12/2018 at 22:38, Barnzy said:

It’s been stated in its current state we wouldn’t be able to expand past 27000 unless the houses behind the ateyo are purchased - means that in game 27000 would be the max limit to expand and the only option would be to build a new stadium

Fair enough about not being able to expand Ashton Gate (although club have said a time will come where Dolman will need to be redeveloped and I thought we had the potential to add a 2nd tier to South Stand?) but then could never get the request for a new stadium built, it was never a response of not being in a financial position to do so but the board doubting there was not a big enough support base, this for a team at the time who were finishing top 4 in the prem.

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No idea on that front tbh. 

 

Ive noticed that the capacity reduces upon promotion to the premier league - why is this?

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I have not heard of that happening. I suggest you log it, with save game before the reduction, in the bugs forum.

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Small point, game has Bristol City being founded 1897, Jon Lansdown (Vice-chairman) recently said in an interview the date on the new club badge would be 1894 as that was the date the club was founded rather than when the name changed.

"That’s helped shape where it is today that it will have a redesigned robin and that the  club  was founded in 1894 and not when the name changed in 1897"

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/every-championship-club-badge-been-2529652

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Freddie Hinds is on loan at Bath City not Wrexham as of January. Not sure whether it was relevant here or in the Conference South topic so I've posted in both.

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