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Hi all,

I really like the sound of the new tactical styles, mentalities and how SI seem to be trying to make sure when jargon is used it's in keeping with common terms in football, rather than stuff that only really makes sense to them/FM.

On that note, I wonder if it's time to look again at player roles and how they're labelled and used? I understand that the Mezzala (for example) was created as a specialist, hard-coded role that moves central midfielders into the half-space but why not just make that an instruction we can trigger?

There's many other examples of this. Trequartista... Enganche... 

And even the likes of Segundo Volante and Carrillo - I don't understand the decision to give them names that obsfucate their purpose. Why not 'Complete Midfielder' or 'Shuttler'? We've got 'Roaming Playmaker' which is a good label because it does what it says on the tin (in my opinion).

The new tactics editor seems really promising in part because everything seems customisable to make it easier to replicate known styles and come up with your own tactics. Maybe it makes sense to take player roles in the same way with a modular design with generic positions (Attacking Midfielder, Central Midfielder, Winger etc.) but with far more customisable options, rather than these fixed, specific roles that can sometimes feel too specific!

Maybe I'm off on one here but I think this would both aid understanding and make it easier to do what the game seems set up to allow us to do, more so than ever...

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While I don't disagree with you that certain things could be clearer in the game; what would be a more suitable name for False Nine, Enganche, Trequartista or Raumdeuter?

While False Nine and Trequartista is fairly commonplace in the football world, Enganche and Raumdeuter isn't that much more known than Segundo Volante or Mezzala? The thing is, these kinds of roles are pretty much determined by certain behaviour in real life, and to rename them into something else could be even more confusing. What names would you give to separate Mezzala from a Carrillo and Box-to-box midfielder? Wide Box-to-box midfielder for Mezzala? Not-quite-box-to-box midfielder for Carrillo?

FM is a game about football after all, and the tactics you use is a main point of the simulation itself. So I would argue that at a certain level the game expect a user to know quite a bit about the sport is simulates. It also doesn't explain the rules of the game itself, some of which are not that intuitive, even for long term watchers!

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Raumdeuter really shouldn’t be in. It was a phrase coined by Thomas Muller when asked how he plays the game and what his style or strengths are. He’s basically a support striker with emphasis on certain key attributes. 

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1 hour ago, XaW said:

While I don't disagree with you that certain things could be clearer in the game; what would be a more suitable name for False Nine, Enganche, Trequartista or Raumdeuter?

While False Nine and Trequartista is fairly commonplace in the football world, Enganche and Raumdeuter isn't that much more known than Segundo Volante or Mezzala? The thing is, these kinds of roles are pretty much determined by certain behaviour in real life, and to rename them into something else could be even more confusing. What names would you give to separate Mezzala from a Carrillo and Box-to-box midfielder? Wide Box-to-box midfielder for Mezzala? Not-quite-box-to-box midfielder for Carrillo?

FM is a game about football after all, and the tactics you use is a main point of the simulation itself. So I would argue that at a certain level the game expect a user to know quite a bit about the sport is simulates. It also doesn't explain the rules of the game itself, some of which are not that intuitive, even for long term watchers!

No problem at all with 'False Nine'. It does what it says on the tin and for those who don't understand what it does it's easy to Google. Not sure that's true of Carrillo, Mezzala, Segundo Volante

Take Trequartista for example... Couldn't that be covered with a dribbly attacking playmaker with a free role and other instructions? It has become a more specific term because of its use in FM whereas previously in the wider world (I may be wrong on this) it is a catch all term in Italy for a playmaker as I understand it.

Not keen on Raumdeuter either for the reason DP states above. Isn't that just an inside forward with specific instructions with regards to their off the ball movement? And for the roles that have been created to cover specific behaviour I think it would make more sense to have an option in the player instructions to cover those beahviours. Rather than the Mezzala role, have 'Moves into half-space' as an option, for example.

Avoiding these more fiddly labels, while I understand how difficult it has been to implement an Inverted Wing-back that works properly within the match engine, ideally don't we just want an option to allow the generic Wing-back role to come inside rather than a whole new role? I think that kind of sums up where I'm at here. Less roles, more options to make the generic roles do more specific things.

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10 minutes ago, Spart said:

No problem at all with 'False Nine'. It does what it says on the tin and for those who don't understand what it does it's easy to Google. Not sure that's true of Carrillo, Mezzala, Segundo Volante

Take Trequartista for example... Couldn't that be covered with a dribbly attacking playmaker with a free role and other instructions? It has become a more specific term because of its use in FM whereas previously in the wider world (I may be wrong on this) it is a catch all term in Italy for a playmaker as I understand it.

Not keen on Raumdeuter either for the reason DP states above. Isn't that just an inside forward with specific instructions with regards to their off the ball movement? And for the roles that have been created to cover specific behaviour I think it would make more sense to have an option in the player instructions to cover those beahviours. Rather than the Mezzala role, have 'Moves into half-space' as an option, for example.

Avoiding these more fiddly labels, while I understand how difficult it has been to implement an Inverted Wing-back that works properly within the match engine, ideally don't we just want an option to allow the generic Wing-back role to come inside rather than a whole new role? I think that kind of sums up where I'm at here. Less roles, more options to make the generic roles do more specific things.

It does help the AI having separate roles for players, instead of having to work out how to heavily modify a role.

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2 hours ago, Spart said:

No problem at all with 'False Nine'. It does what it says on the tin and for those who don't understand what it does it's easy to Google. Not sure that's true of Carrillo, Mezzala, Segundo Volante

Take Trequartista for example... Couldn't that be covered with a dribbly attacking playmaker with a free role and other instructions? It has become a more specific term because of its use in FM whereas previously in the wider world (I may be wrong on this) it is a catch all term in Italy for a playmaker as I understand it.

Not keen on Raumdeuter either for the reason DP states above. Isn't that just an inside forward with specific instructions with regards to their off the ball movement? And for the roles that have been created to cover specific behaviour I think it would make more sense to have an option in the player instructions to cover those beahviours. Rather than the Mezzala role, have 'Moves into half-space' as an option, for example.

Avoiding these more fiddly labels, while I understand how difficult it has been to implement an Inverted Wing-back that works properly within the match engine, ideally don't we just want an option to allow the generic Wing-back role to come inside rather than a whole new role? I think that kind of sums up where I'm at here. Less roles, more options to make the generic roles do more specific things.

Regarding your initial paragraph, why can't users Goolge "Mezzala" or "Segundo Volante" if they can Google "False Nine"? The first answer for a "Segundo Volante" is actually a statement of how it works in the FM world and even with video examples to show how the role plays out in real life. Another role that is hard to name is the "Regista" as opposed to a deep-lying playmaker. Since the Regista roams then we could have a trio of "Roaming playmaker", "Deep-lying playmaker" and "Roaming Deep-lying playmaker" and I don't quite see how that is easier to understand than one of the roles named "Regista". After all, all of the roles have a basic description in the tactics screen and all tactics needs to be viewed to understand them anyway.

@HUNT3R brings up a very good point though. Even though we as humans can do these things, the AI need to be able to do the same thing. And quite frankly if the AI had been improved as it could then this board would be filled with people losing heavily each and every game, and only the tactical gurus would stand a slight chance.

The reason AI is important here; is that, in essence, your participation in the game is optional. The game is not designed around you as the player, but your role is as one of many and the game doesn't differ between you and the AI managers. So everything you can do, the AI should also be able to do. So clearly defined player roles makes it easier for the AI to chose a suitable role. An AI that can tinker around with advanced settings would be a nightmare to balance to a point where it can use it, but not to an extent that it is nearly unbeatable.

But I do think we as users could have the _option_ of customizing the roles we want in addition to having the defined roles. Though, this could make unbeatable DIABLO-style tactics possible again, I suppose.

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Some of the role names are just silly. I think some of them are just S.I taking the pee tbh. 

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17 minutes ago, rubrub said:

I would prefer for us to have less player roles, but more control over them

You're disregarding points that were made in the post directly above yours.

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Just now, QWERTYOP said:

Some of the role names are just silly. I think some of them are just S.I taking the pee tbh. 

They're just names for preset instructions.

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3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

It does help the AI having separate roles for players, instead of having to work out how to heavily modify a role.

Yeah, I get this, and what I'm wondering about/hoping for might be an absolutely terrible idea in terms of how it actually works (or doesn't) in the game, in which case fair enough!

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4 hours ago, DP said:

Raumdeuter really shouldn’t be in. It was a phrase coined by Thomas Muller when asked how he plays the game and what his style or strengths are. He’s basically a support striker with emphasis on certain key attributes. 

All roles are initially coined by a pundit manager or player tho... Ramdeuter has since been appropriated by the football world and has its own context that people should understand. Its a free role attacker that uses football intelligence to find space on the field to carve out scoring chances. Its as much part of the modern game now as the false 9.

I love that some people say trequarista is obscure? And renamed with some sort of double barrel english! If ever theres a role that does what it says on the tin... Trequarista is italian for 3/4 and tells us alot about the player...they arent at all interested in defence, they want to play in the 3/4 of the pitch. 

That said... I agree totally with the OP and to even more extreme... I wouldnt have any roles. Id have a number of positions available (as vacant spaces i. E. 5/6 slots across each strata) in the TC... If i put kante in the central midfield slot i shouldnt give him a role... His attributes and ppms should dictate his overall style as a player and be very different than if i put iniesta there. I shouldnt need to say kante is a bbm or iniests is a mez or ap... Their complete different set of attributes and ppm would make them play any role differently anyway. 

Players should have more ppms and attributes should be wider spread over a larger range to make players more unique. And managers should have more ti/pi to fit in with their playing style (introduction of styles and linking to training is a big leap forward and opens the door for future improvements) 

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1 hour ago, XaW said:

Regarding your initial paragraph, why can't users Goolge "Mezzala" or "Segundo Volante" if they can Google "False Nine"? The first answer for a "Segundo Volante" is actually a statement of how it works in the FM world and even with video examples to show how the role plays out in real life. Another role that is hard to name is the "Regista" as opposed to a deep-lying playmaker. Since the Regista roams then we could have a trio of "Roaming playmaker", "Deep-lying playmaker" and "Roaming Deep-lying playmaker" and I don't quite see how that is easier to understand than one of the roles named "Regista". After all, all of the roles have a basic description in the tactics screen and all tactics needs to be viewed to understand them anyway.

@HUNT3R brings up a very good point though. Even though we as humans can do these things, the AI need to be able to do the same thing. And quite frankly if the AI had been improved as it could then this board would be filled with people losing heavily each and every game, and only the tactical gurus would stand a slight chance.

The reason AI is important here; is that, in essence, your participation in the game is optional. The game is not designed around you as the player, but your role is as one of many and the game doesn't differ between you and the AI managers. So everything you can do, the AI should also be able to do. So clearly defined player roles makes it easier for the AI to chose a suitable role. An AI that can tinker around with advanced settings would be a nightmare to balance to a point where it can use it, but not to an extent that it is nearly unbeatable.

But I do think we as users could have the _option_ of customizing the roles we want in addition to having the defined roles. Though, this could make unbeatable DIABLO-style tactics possible again, I suppose.

That proves my point on Segundo Volante though, no? It's not a term or a label that was in common use. The top result on Google in English is about an FM role because it wasn't a term widely used to describe anything in football in English prior to its inclusion in the game. Not true of False Nine.

If we were to go down the generic roles, more customisation options route I'm talking about then a Regista (in my weird little world) would be a DLP with added instructions; instructions that might only be unlocked if you drop the player into the DM band. That seems reasonable on the face of it, although I completely get the issue of why specialist roles with specialist behaviours are a benefit to the match engine.

Regardless of whether there are descriptions in the game, in an ideal world I think it would be better to make all the tools as friendly to the lay man as possible, because knowing a load of jargon doesn't neccesarily mean you know the game better or what you want to do with your team.

I think ultimately this is something I'd like to see the game move if SI thought it would be beneficial without hampering the match engine. Even though I understand the roles (or at least I think I do) I do find some of the names a bit jarring but that's personal preference, of course.

@westy8chimp - See, I think that sounds great! I do get how trying to ensure the AI could cope is another matter.

Edited by Spart

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@Spart You have the name (whether you think it's a stupid name or not), a description of the role, a description of the duty plus PIs. All of that should help you to show you what a player does.

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3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

All roles are initially coined by a pundit manager or player tho... Ramdeuter has since been appropriated by the football world and has its own context that people should understand. Its a free role attacker that uses football intelligence to find space on the field to carve out scoring chances. Its as much part of the modern game now as the false 9.

I love that some people say trequarista is obscure? And renamed with some sort of double barrel english! If ever theres a role that does what it says on the tin... Trequarista is italian for 3/4 and tells us alot about the player...they arent at all interested in defence, they want to play in the 3/4 of the pitch. 

That said... I agree totally with the OP and to even more extreme... I wouldnt have any roles. Id have a number of positions available (as vacant spaces i. E. 5/6 slots across each strata) in the TC... If i put kante in the central midfield slot i shouldnt give him a role... His attributes and ppms should dictate his overall style as a player and be very different than if i put iniesta there. I shouldnt need to say kante is a bbm or iniests is a mez or ap... Their complete different set of attributes and ppm would make them play any role differently anyway. 

Players should have more ppms and attributes should be wider spread over a larger range to make players more unique. And managers should have more ti/pi to fit in with their playing style (introduction of styles and linking to training is a big leap forward and opens the door for future improvements) 

I disagree on Raumdeuter. If you google it most, if not all, the main articles revolve around Thomas Muller or FM. 

False 9 has its own description and I don’t think it was created for any one player in the same way Raumdeuter was. 

In my opinion false 9 was a tactical creation for a system, Raumdeuter is just the way Muller plays. 

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@HUNT3R For sure, I just think it would be better if you opened up your tactical tool box, so to speak, and the options available made more sense on first glance. You could stick someone in front of it with all the tactical insight you'd want and they would have to jump through a few loops first if they weren't au fait with the labels borrowed from other football traditions that don't always actually mean what FM has made them to mean.

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Just now, Spart said:

@HUNT3R For sure, I just think it would be better if you opened up your tactical tool box, so to speak, and the options available made more sense on first glance. You could stick someone in front of it with all the tactical insight you'd want and they would have to jump through a few loops first if they weren't au fait with the labels borrowed from other football traditions that don't always actually mean what FM has made them to mean.

You've said it yourself - they're just labels. 

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@HUNT3R Of course, but I still think they can be a barrier to understanding or immersion, and would prefer a more streamlined array of roles with more customisation options where I tell a central midfielder to make for the half space rather than select a Mezzala. It's not life or death by any means but it'd be a quality of life addition for me - which I get isn't enough as the game isn't made to my spec or interests, thankfully!

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Just now, Spart said:

@HUNT3R Of course, but I still think they can be a barrier to understanding or immersion, and would prefer a more streamlined array of roles with more customisation options where I tell a central midfielder to make for the half space rather than select a Mezzala. It's not life or death by any means but it'd be a quality of life addition for me - which I get isn't enough as the game isn't made to my spec or interests, thankfully!

That's why I said - there's a description + PIs.

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@HUNT3R Right but I haven't denied there is information in the game on them, or that there's anything deeper than not liking how the roles are presented. I'm not sure you are getting the point of what I'm saying, which is probably my fault for dropping a bit of a stream consciousness in here between work rather than taking time to go over it properly.

No problems with the game or SI at all. This is just a direction I'd like to see development go in, eventually. If that's no possible or popular, fair enough. There are far better ideas and bigger 'problems' that have been raised by others.

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Just now, Spart said:

@HUNT3R Right but I haven't denied there is information in the game on them, or that there's anything deeper than not liking how the roles are presented. I'm not sure you are getting the point of what I'm saying, which is probably my fault for dropping a bit of a stream consciousness in here between work rather than taking time to go over it properly.

No problems with the game or SI at all. This is just a direction I'd like to see development go in, eventually. If that's no possible or popular, fair enough. There are far better ideas and bigger 'problems' that have been raised by others.

It's a label. And as has been mentioned, it helps the AI, which is to our benefit.  :thup:

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Hmm somehow managed to hide my previous post... Apologies if you can see it and im repeating myself... 

IRL if i sign Lee Catermole (sorry lee... Always you!) i know exactly what im getting... I wouldnt dream of telling him 'i want you to play mezzala today'... Nor would i expect to have to tell him 'you are our hard tackling midfielder'... He is what he is... What i would be drilling in is how i want the team to play... Where are we going to defend and where are we going to press... Etc (team instructions). 

Thats why i feel roles are a distraction. If i play lee cat as mez or ap... The thug is still going to put the bosh on his opposite number and he will still lack the cutting pass or late running intelligence to be a successful mez/ap. So i go the tactics forum asking for help... And they rightly gona tell me i need to sign the right player to play mez. In which case... Back to my original point the role is kinda redundant... Players attributes and ppms decide who they are and how they play... Why shroud it? the developers can come up with an under-the-hood solution to aiding AI managers fot the right players into their systems. Have hidden roles if they want etc

@DP agree about your comments on how those roles were conceived... But i have since heard other goalscoring players like dele alli termed as ramdeuter. Its become a bracket of player who on the face of it shouldnt be good... Maybe they lack pace or other physical attributes... But there is a je ne sais quoi (footballing intelligence) about them that means they find space and score goals. 

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1 ora fa, Spart ha scritto:

@HUNT3R Right but I haven't denied there is information in the game on them, or that there's anything deeper than not liking how the roles are presented. I'm not sure you are getting the point of what I'm saying, which is probably my fault for dropping a bit of a stream consciousness in here between work rather than taking time to go over it properly.

No problems with the game or SI at all. This is just a direction I'd like to see development go in, eventually. If that's no possible or popular, fair enough. There are far better ideas and bigger 'problems' that have been raised by others.

 

1 ora fa, westy8chimp ha scritto:

IRL if i sign Lee Catermole (sorry lee... Always you!) i know exactly what im getting... I wouldnt dream of telling him 'i want you to play mezzala today'... Nor would i expect to have to tell him 'you are our hard tackling midfielder'... He is what he is... What i would be drilling in is how i want the team to play... Where are we going to defend and where are we going to press... Etc (team instructions). 

two great inputs. 

@westy8chimp is right describing how it works in reality. i.e. Guardiola, or usually any good manager, knows how his team plays at any given moment. To alter or enhance that play, he knows what kind of attributes (mental, technical and personal) he wants. He then creates that kind of player if he has a player in the squad that may be able to adapt (Lahm in CM at Bayern). If he doesn't already have that kind of player, he then looks to bring in such a player (Ederson at Man City).

Then, on the training ground, he explains to the player and the squad how to play in each part of the pitch. First, there's a set of tactical instructions about off and on the ball movement. 

i.e. when coaching the back line how to play out of the back, players in whole team are told where to position themselves and where to play the ball. The full back might be instructed to stay wide and high while two CM's are instructed to drop deep and rotate providing central passing option. The winger is instructed to move into half space and drop around the half way line providing passing option in the middle third... 

533986177_FIG.1.thumb.png.680b4a2064d93d2f192ace83eba951ae.png

All these instructions are valid only for one phase of the game, while in other phases all these players will have different behaviours and there really is no archetype of i.e. central midfielder. That is just a very general position on the pitch. 

heatmap.thumb.png.14ca04bc549e166fdac32380856758f6.png
Something you see on the heat map. That picture only tells you who played in what zone on the pitch, defining positions. However, that doesn't really speak of what these players did on the pitch or how that team behaved... What were the instructions they had.

This set of instructions then gets simplified and, literally, dumbed down into a role by the football community (coaches, media... FM). The thing is, there is no true name for what (i.e. Totti) played. The role is described as a trequartista, but his personal traits and sets of instructions may be largely different from some other player that could also be described as trequartista. Heck, even Totti didn't have the same instructions throughout his career. Yet, he is always trequartista. And Pablo Aimar, and Maradona... but they all had different instructions.

I understand FM chose roles for lack of better idea. However, I'd like to explore options on different approaches. Generic positions as CM, DM... should be completely open to instructions. In fact, wibble/wobble was exactly that. You had on the ball and off the ball instructions for all players. You would basically tell players exactly where they should stand on the pitch in relation to the ball and phase of play. And that is exactly what coaches try to do day in day out. Tell their players where to stand and how to behave in each zone. Where to go, which options to provide, favour...

However, not all coaches are like this. There are those that prefer a more lenient approach with just basic instructions and a lot of freedom. This could possibly be closer to the current state in FM. Basically, SI has punished us all by forcing us to simulate Harry Redknapp :D 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MBarbaric

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

They're just names for preset instructions.

I’m aware of that. A number of the names are still unnecessarily silly. They could be a lot clearer. 

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37 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Basically, SI has punished us all by forcing us to simulate Harry Redknapp :D 

qRAPDPO.jpg

Redknapp approves :thup:

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@MBarbaric Great post.

Interesting point too on how some managers do view the game through Player Roles, and SI have come upon the idea of player roles from speaking to professionals in the game, so perhaps player roles should exist, just as these tactical styles will now exist starting from FM19, but with more options for the generic roles for those who want to see the game the other way?

Wait... that sounds even more complex. Ignore me. Ahem.

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2 hours ago, QWERTYOP said:

I’m aware of that. A number of the names are still unnecessarily silly. They could be a lot clearer. 

Why are they silly? I thought they were terms used in real life to describe these type of footballing roles?

Terms such as Mezzala and Carrilero have a touch of Latin American sound to them, so maybe they originate from there. Just because they aren't familiar terms used where you are based doesn't make them silly. You just hadn't heard of them before. (neither had I). 

 

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8 horas atrás, Spart disse:

That proves my point on Segundo Volante though, no? It's not a term or a label that was in common use. The top result on Google in English is about an FM role because it wasn't a term widely used to describe anything in football in English prior to its inclusion in the game.

Is not because isn't very used in english terms that it doesn't exist or doesn't matter. Segundo Volante is a major role in brazilian football, because most of the tactics are played with more than one DM,in this case, the DM is more know as "Primeiro Volante". But in english football the Primeiro Volante can be easily found on other names, but the Segundo not. Raumdeuter is the same case,not so used in England, or the name is not common, but it is a important role in a system,so should be in there. English football is not everything that exist in the world mate :brock:

 

 

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Footballing terms and Jargons. Fun stuff. Now The Mezzala is a midfielder that operates in the halfspace and sometimes drift wide. Kevin De Bryune Is a perfect example, Peps city uses Mezzalas now not because the average joe doesn't know this doesn't mean it shouldn't be in a football management game. Afterall you are a football manager, do your research about football.

The Enganche, albit dying role in modern european football is still very relevant in South and Central America along with the Segundo Volante. These are roles we see in football today they might not be used in Europe but they exsist. 

The Raumdueter is a next role that is seen today but not as much. Thomas Muller is just the best example of this but i doubt he was the first player to use good off the ball movement to find space from outwide to score. Its like the False 9 Messi is everyones go to person with the False 9 but he wasn't the first player to be a false 9.  

At the end of the day this is a football management game. we can't dumb the game down to please people who are too lazy to do research. Each role has a description of what it does and all it takes is for you the player to watch the game and see how this roles move and perform. Like in real football, managers spends long hours researching and reading tactics to employ for their own team. 

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14 hours ago, QWERTYOP said:

Some of the role names are just silly. I think some of them are just S.I taking the pee tbh. 

Seriously?

Theyre just names to describe how a player plays, theyre not "taking the pee". That would be a complete waste of their own time if what you think was true, and that wouldnt make sense.

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Part of the appeal that FM has is that the AI has exactly the same tools available to it as the player has.

There is no artificial "difficulty" where it gets a 500% income bonus or other related balancing shenanigans common to RTS games.

 

But that's equally the problem with FM.

Due to the limitations of current hardware & software technologies, the AI has all the creative ability of a dead slug.

A free-form tactical system as envisioned by westy would be absolutely fricken awesome, but the AI just wouldn't be able to cope with it on a consistent or reliable basis. 

Because the AI is so limited the tools it is given to work with need to be within it's scope of operation

Predefined Player Roles fulfill that need

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5 hours ago, masno said:

Is not because isn't very used in english terms that it doesn't exist or doesn't matter. Segundo Volante is a major role in brazilian football, because most of the tactics are played with more than one DM,in this case, the DM is more know as "Primeiro Volante". But in english football the Primeiro Volante can be easily found on other names, but the Segundo not. Raumdeuter is the same case,not so used in England, or the name is not common, but it is a important role in a system,so should be in there. English football is not everything that exist in the world mate :brock:

 

 

This is exactly the point being missed when some think SI are taking the pee with names or don't understand the origin of the role.  Football's not restricted to the UK, nor is FM.  Just because us Brits don't use (or have not heard of) an Enganche, a Carrilero or a Segundo Volante doesn't mean they don't exist - or at least based on recognised footballing terms.

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@herne79I don't think SI are making them up at all but unless the Brazilian Portuguese version of the game is going to include 'No Nonsense Full-back' without translation then it doesn't make much sense to use an untranslated label for a position.

@AmaranteIt's not about dumbing down though. If anything, I'd like it to be more complex with a greater array of customisable options for generic roles. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying in order to grandstand about a strawman argument you've cooked up.

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2 minutes ago, Spart said:

@herne79I don't think SI are making them up at all but unless the Brazilian Portuguese version of the game is going to include 'No Nonsense Full-back' without translation then it doesn't make much sense to use an untranslated label for a position.

@AmaranteIt's not about dumbing down though. If anything, I'd like it to be more complex with a greater array of customisable options for generic roles. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying in order to grandstand about a strawman argument you've cooked up.

I haven\t cooked up anything. Your main argument is that none english football roles makes no sense. I counter that. 

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3 minutes ago, Spart said:

I don't think SI are making them up at all but unless the Brazilian Portuguese version of the game is going to include 'No Nonsense Full-back' without translation then it doesn't make much sense to use an untranslated label for a position.

"Trequartista", "Enganche", "Segundo Volante" etc aren't untranslated because there's nothing to translate.  They're the names.  They're just not English sounding nor are they commonly found in British football.  We don't call Real Madrid "Royal" Madrid do we?  No-nonsense Fullback would be commonly found throughout the world and in all likelihood have it's own translation.  A no-nonsense Fullback is just what us Brits call it.

I suppose we could call a Trequartista a "dribbly attacking playmaker with a free role and other instructions".  Bit of a mouthful though and I'm not sure Totti would like it :p.

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Personally, what I'd like to see is just give us human managers default roles for each position on the field with very generic names and none of the adjustable PIs set as active by default, i.e. Forwards, AMC, MR, DML, etc. (except for roles with very specific behavior like the Half Back).

Then, when we click on the assigned player position icons on the pitch in the tactic screen, we'll have the usual PIs adjustment screen. But this time, there's also a drop down list were we can select a number of set templates of roles that you can find in the real world football tactics, which will set the correlating PIs as activated and adjusting the mentality when you select one of them. AI managers will be able to use these templates to use on their tactics alongside of the generic ones, so it'll be basically the same degree of complexity for AI managers to handle in their tactics like in the earlier iterations of FM, but us human managers will also have this freedom to tinkering around with player roles, and there should be an option to save their customized set of activated PIs and level of mentality as a new template and naming them as whatever fanciful (or austere) names they can imagine. I believe that it could be fun addition that you can compare and discuss your customized player roles for your tactics with that of other human managers this way.

Edited by bangkonggedek

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