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On 18/12/2018 at 16:13, ShadowBlader said:

I really despise the new "Team Fluidity" so much  

They should really go back to the old style as i think it confused alot of people inc me. It was basic when counter, control- fluid/structured etc because i understood what my team was doing and how they did it. 

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8 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Why? It's just a label. Means nothing when making actual tactics, IMO

Exactly, there's no need for it, the roles of support and attack and defend are what they are, The old version for e,g 17, the fluid meant you'd play fluid which is what you have to make by tweaking around now where as 17 you could just say play fluid which is much more realistic and useful IMO. From structured to fluid you know what that means, defensive and attacking wise you'd know which one to use but now it's the "expressive or disciplined" mixed with your own tactic which can be really annoying if it doesn't work when you had it set or used many times before. 

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Posted (edited)

No, team fluidity in FM19 is not merely an indication. It actually changes players' individual mentalities.

For instance, if you play with two attack duties, team fluidity is automatically set to flexible. What happens when you change one of the attack duties to support?

Team fluidity changes to fluid, which averages out individual mentalities i.e. it increases the mentality of all defensive roles and decreases the mentality of attacking roles with respect to the overall team mentality.

So a seemingly defensive change like changing your winger from attack to support can actually increase the mentality of your entire back line.

Edited by Ein

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1 hour ago, Ein said:

No, team fluidity in FM19 is not merely an indication. It actually changes players' individual mentalities.

For instance, if you play with two attack duties, team fluidity is automatically set to flexible. What happens when you change one of the attack duties to support?

Team fluidity changes to fluid, which averages out individual mentalities i.e. it increases the mentality of all defensive roles and decreases the mentality of attacking roles with respect to the overall team mentality.

So a seemingly defensive change like changing your winger from attack to support can actually increase the mentality of your entire back line.

You are wrong. Fluidity does not change mentalities. Fluidity does nothing. Duties change mentalities. So if you choose an attack duty it will have a higher mentality than a support duty within a balanced framework, and fluidity did nothing there. The devs have said it doesn't matter and they code the game.

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47 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You are wrong. Fluidity does not change mentalities. Fluidity does nothing. Duties change mentalities. So if you choose an attack duty it will have a higher mentality than a support duty within a balanced framework, and fluidity did nothing there. The devs have said it doesn't matter and they code the game.

And yet the UI says otherwise. It can be very easily tested. I'll post some screenshots soon.

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44 minutes ago, Ein said:

And yet the UI says otherwise. It can be very easily tested. I'll post some screenshots soon.

I'd say that's a bug. I'll test it today aswell see if it is like that but surely an AMR position shouldn't effect a defenders mentality of being cautious/balanced/positive? I'd understand it if it was an MR as a defensive winger or even a WB on defence/support as they'd be useful for defensive purposes. That's a strange one. I'm inclined to agree with Rashidi on this. 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, BigV said:

I'd say that's a bug. I'll test it today aswell see if it is like that but surely an AMR position shouldn't effect a defenders mentality of being cautious/balanced/positive? I'd understand it if it was an MR as a defensive winger or even a WB on defence/support as they'd be useful for defensive purposes. That's a strange one. I'm inclined to agree with Rashidi on this. 

That was just an example. I could have used a FB instead of a W and the result would still be the same. And it affects all positions.

I don't think it's a UI bug because it follows a logical pattern. The higher the fluidity the more individual mentalities average out to the team mentality, which is exactly how team shape worked in previous FM games.

Edited by Ein

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Team Shape shifted from an active Option to a passive one which Is set automatically by assigning the right duties. You can Even See the Players set up differently on the pitch.

dont know why mods and si still refuse the effect... and no it’s not a bug or text glitch

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1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

and no it’s not a bug or text glitch

Assuming for a moment you're right and it's not a UI glitch, what actual difference in how players physically behave on the pitch during matches have you noticed and can demonstrate for us?

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2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

You can Even See the Players set up differently on the pitch

Can you please explain/describe this in more detail?

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2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Team Shape shifted from an active Option to a passive one which Is set automatically by assigning the right duties. You can Even See the Players set up differently on the pitch.

dont know why mods and si still refuse the effect... and no it’s not a bug or text glitch

Are you saying it's having the same effects as what you could do in 17 with the "fluidity" option? but instead of you picking it, it's based on the position of the players and the roles the user puts them in? If so then I disagree masively because when I first played the game I assumed the same thing as I was confused so I decided to do it both and still had the same effect of playing it as structured- obviously did more testing but I found the creative freedom and fluidity being the same. 

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1 hora atrás, herne79 disse:

Assuming for a moment you're right and it's not a UI glitch, what actual difference in how players physically behave on the pitch during matches have you noticed and can demonstrate for us?

Not the OP but i've messing around with team fluidity for a while. The differences that I saw was this:
More fluid team usually try to mess more around with themselves because all of their mentality is quite close together, players with attacking mentality actually try to act as team player and sometimes I see my wingers tracking back really deep

Flexible: Team acts like 2 different beasts. Attack players seems to give way more speed to attack, try to dribble more a lot more times and stay higher in the pitch most of the time, I don't usually see them tracking back (midfield on attack) as much as the previous team

Structured: Team almost act if it was on fifa, players supposed to attack go up, and the rest stay in their position.

My experience with the 3 fluidity was different despite having the same TI. Obviously that the difference between fluid and structured are quite easy to see,more support on fluid positive mentality means that players look to deliver the ball to attack but not as rushed.

Also one thing that I forget to say before, but if you do a test yourself and put everyone but the CD on support with positive mentality, they will all (excluding the striker) be in the positive mentality, the defender with balanced mentality. If you put one of the players on attack (excluding the striker), he will go to the attack mentality. But if you're in the flexible shape, usually the attackers will be on a much attacking mentality. I did not test with all the roles (and don't pretend),and not with every single setup possible,just with my system,and those were the results.

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5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Assuming for a moment you're right and it's not a UI glitch, what actual difference in how players physically behave on the pitch during matches have you noticed and can demonstrate for us?

It changes mentality, it changes Creative Freedom. You can see your Team being vertically streched out due to the higher spread of mentality without changing Player duties on certain constellations obviously... 

maybe it’s not 100% the same as it was in ^18 but it defenetly does something passively

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8 hours ago, CARRERA said:

It changes mentality, it changes Creative Freedom. You can see your Team being vertically streched out due to the higher spread of mentality without changing Player duties on certain constellations obviously... 

maybe it’s not 100% the same as it was in ^18 but it defenetly does something passively

ok my fault, that isn't really what I'm asking.  If you change one player's duty and nothing else, you are saying that you can see a difference in how all your other players on the pitch behave during a match due to a change in their mentalities?  Not just a change in their UI Mentality, but actually in their on pitch behaviour?  Can you post a video of that happening or perhaps a match pkm with the in match timing and detail of exactly what change you made?

Whenever I change my left Inside Forward's duty (for example) I notice a change in their on pitch behaviour but not in how my central defenders, right back or right winger play.  There can be small changes in how my left back, striker or midfielders play, but that's more to do with how roles combine with each other, space is created (and used) and transitional play, than anything to do with an apparent change in their mentality.

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@herne79 playing devil's advocate... In fm18 would you have ever used fluidity to affect a cbs behaviour?

I did... Now maybe it's just to create a little more narrative and the theory may have outweighed the practice... But I think many of us used it, wrote about it, knew what it did. 

So I'd be hesitant to now dismiss it. 

The likelihood is it would be very hard to attribute any specific passage of play to a cbs mentality... I could play the same tactic all season but in some matches you could see different behaviour. Sometimes my CB plays it short sometimes he clears it... Is that his decision making? The opponent press? His mentality? If he does post a video it would be so easy to dismiss it...so its pointless. 

There's no solution we can provide... Its should be logged as a bug... Either it's a UI issue... Or unintended residual behaviour.... Or option 3 it is intentional and the information provided by the devs has been miscommunicated or misconstrued. 

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@westy8chimp  I know mate.  Basically all I'm trying to say is if we want to influence our right back's (for example) mentality, change his duty - not our left winger's (or anyone else's) because changing anyone else's really won't make any difference during a match, despite what the UI might say :thup:.

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4 hours ago, herne79 said:

ok my fault, that isn't really what I'm asking.  If you change one player's duty and nothing else, you are saying that you can see a difference in how all your other players on the pitch behave during a match due to a change in their mentalities?  Not just a change in their UI Mentality, but actually in their on pitch behaviour?  Can you post a video of that happening or perhaps a match pkm with the in match timing and detail of exactly what change you made?

Whenever I change my left Inside Forward's duty (for example) I notice a change in their on pitch behaviour but not in how my central defenders, right back or right winger play.  There can be small changes in how my left back, striker or midfielders play, but that's more to do with how roles combine with each other, space is created (and used) and transitional play, than anything to do with an apparent change in their mentality.

Why not keep it simple for the Moment. What about the Change in Creative Freedom?

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22 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Why not keep it simple for the Moment. What about the Change in Creative Freedom? 

Not sure I understand - are you saying you think altering one player's duty affects everybody else's creativity?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, herne79 said:

Not sure I understand - are you saying you think altering one player's duty affects everybody else's creativity?

Thats what it is, yes. weirdly as it sounds... Also this is the information the game provides to the player.

And to get this clear i dont think it is because i alter 1 duty, it is because the team shape is passively applied as a team setting. while in fm18 you could create some unlogic duty / shape combination there is a logic link between shape and duties now.

oh and btw: if there was no passive layer for creative freedom, how would you adjust the creative freedom of your team? Yeah there is BME it just applies to final third play tho. You also have a modifier in mentalities but it wouldnt make any sense to just add it to mentality. why would a more cautious team not be able to be more expressive. Also why does mentality would change fluiditiy if it basicly has no effect?

Edited by CARRERA

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Pretty much the same question I asked on the previous page on October 15th last year.

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1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Thats what it is, yes. weirdly as it sounds... Also this is the information the game provides to the player.

And to get this clear i dont think it is because i alter 1 duty, it is because the team shape is passively applied as a team setting. while in fm18 you could create some unlogic duty / shape combination there is a logic link between shape and duties now.

oh and btw: if there was no passive layer for creative freedom, how would you adjust the creative freedom of your team? Yeah there is BME it just applies to final third play tho. You also have a modifier in mentalities but it wouldnt make any sense to just add it to mentality. why would a more cautious team not be able to be more expressive. Also why does mentality would change fluiditiy if it basicly has no effect?

Thinking about it alot and theoretically what you say could be correct. I'm having trouble with my save atm because i've only just started it back up and having wing backs on support/attack is like a magnet to them crossing around 20-30 crosses in total as both RB/LB positions sometimes even more. Say if I chose FB or defensive WB, what you're saying is that other players mentality would drop/increase dependant on the role usage of the team as a whole and the creativity the Mid/attack posesses? 

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@herne79

yes i think everyone read that Post and still it doesnt Provide any answers to the question why fluidity does have an impact on Creative Freedom for example. 

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7 hours ago, CARRERA said:

@herne79

yes i think everyone read that Post and still it doesnt Provide any answers to the question why fluidity does have an impact on Creative Freedom for example. 

Honestly I don't know what else to say.  You don't believe me, you don't believe @Rashidi, you don't even believe the SI developers.  The answer (again) to your question is - it doesn't.  Setting up your roles, duties and Team Mentality to play in a certain style (aka "Team Fluidity") will influence your creativity.  Changing those settings to a different style (which would give you a different label for Team Fluidity) will also influence your creativity.  But that is very different from Team Fluidity having an impact.  It's the settings which have the impact, not the label.  Team Fluidity is just a label which gets attached to the settings.

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14 hours ago, CARRERA said:

@herne79

yes i think everyone read that Post and still it doesnt Provide any answers to the question why fluidity does have an impact on Creative Freedom for example. 

Okay, let's imagine you play two matches using the same team (players), same mentality, same instructions and same team team fluidity (i.e. the same number of different duties), and even the same distribution of duties throughout the setup, with only roles being different. For example, this is the first setup:

PFsu

IFsu                                   Wat

CMat   CMsu

DMsu

FBsu     CDde   CDde    FBsu

GKde

And this is the other one:

F9

IFsu                                       TQ

MEZat   BBM

REG

WBsu    BPDde   CDde   CWBsu

SKde

As you can see, these two setups contain the exact same amounts of all 3 types of duties, meaning they have the same level of team fluidity. And on top of that, all duties are distributed in the same way in terms of positions within the formation. Do you still believe these two setups would work in the same way when it comes to creative freedom?

 

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25 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Do you still believe these two setups would work in the same way when it comes to creative freedom?

The crazy part is, it's always been like that :p.

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To demonstrate better how things are affected, I will show it with images:

20190625123332_1.thumb.jpg.ec55fc01d9cb9d3e1b552de65d02aa78.jpg

20190625123357_1.thumb.jpg.6d2aacf57183447ade3e42ea40830341.jpg

 

20190625123343_1.thumb.jpg.e4bb43bda428d6766f96cdedb3c891b2.jpg

A new slate, Positive mentality, cd on defend is on balanced mentality and the rest with positive mentality, but if I change the right winger to attack?

20190625123417_1.thumb.jpg.906fa946f9bf83d3e00b36efd5a42dcb.jpg

I put him in inside forward attack and his mentality upped 1 notch compared the team mentality. But If I changed the DM to defend and the left fullback to attack?
20190625123433_1.thumb.jpg.f7159ddcf685ae8ba208d8893d5dbb85.jpg

20190625123436_1.thumb.jpg.0f514326a71d571789d55606eee2339a.jpg

20190625123441_1.thumb.jpg.cc9aa9e5a1eea9b07ff6829efe481778.jpg

As you can see the ones with defend now go to cautious mentality and the ones with attack turns to very attacking. Flexible and very fluid have differences? Yes, but it affect creative freedom? I dno't know.

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9 hours ago, herne79 said:

Honestly I don't know what else to say.  You don't believe me, you don't believe @Rashidi, you don't even believe the SI developers.  The answer (again) to your question is - it doesn't.  Setting up your roles, duties and Team Mentality to play in a certain style (aka "Team Fluidity") will influence your creativity.  Changing those settings to a different style (which would give you a different label for Team Fluidity) will also influence your creativity.  But that is very different from Team Fluidity having an impact.  It's the settings which have the impact, not the label.  Team Fluidity is just a label which gets attached to the settings.

Whatever gives the impact the result is the same. Setting up more fluidly will result in more Creative Freedom passively Vice versa. You basicly Said it yourself. And so are other Settings who Originally came once with Team shape. The Overall ME mechanics didnt Change.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, let's imagine you play two matches using the same team (players), same mentality, same instructions and same team team fluidity (i.e. the same number of different duties), and even the same distribution of duties throughout the setup, with only roles being different. For example, this is the first setup:

PFsu

IFsu                                   Wat

CMat   CMsu

DMsu

FBsu     CDde   CDde    FBsu

GKde

And this is the other one:

F9

IFsu                                       TQ

MEZat   BBM

REG

WBsu    BPDde   CDde   CWBsu

SKde

As you can see, these two setups contain the exact same amounts of all 3 types of duties, meaning they have the same level of team fluidity. And on top of that, all duties are distributed in the same way in terms of positions within the formation. Do you still believe these two setups would work in the same way when it comes to creative freedom?

 

I think you completely missed the point. No one denied that there is more then one way to impact Creative freedom...

in fact tho when forcing the second team into a more structured manner (keeping the roles obviously), they will play out very differently in terms of creative freedom.

Edited by CARRERA

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29 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

in fact tho when forcing the second team into a more structured manner (keeping the roles obviously), they will play out very differently in terms of creative freedom

I think you are confusing creative freedom with fluid play. With a more structured team fluidity, the style of playing will naturally be less fluid than with a more fluid one. However, this is not because creative freedom has increased after you went more fluid, but because more support duties - which is what actually boosts the fluidity - make the players behave as a compact unit, thereby leading to a more fluid style of play. In other words, you have more players supporting each other, so the transitions look smoother. Which I guess is what creates your impression that "creative freedom" has increased.

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This understanding of fluidity helped me go a season unbeaten. After a shaky start where I kept conceding silly goals and squeezing wins, I gave my mezzala an attacking role. This changed the team fluidity from fluid to flexible which benefited my split press (back 5 being more conservative and front 5 being more aggressive) and made me much more solid at the back.


image.thumb.png.ccac8d8faa61d79ccf8945285bfdbd93.png

image.thumb.png.cfeee62129ed84595e37dd844a08af8d.png

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44 minutes ago, Ein said:

image.thumb.png.cfeee62129ed84595e37dd844a08af8d.png

This tactic looks very well balanced (regardless of fluidity), so I'm not surprised it has worked so well for you :thup:

(even though I personally would refrain from more urgent pressing :D :brock: )

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3 hours ago, Ein said:

This understanding of fluidity helped me go a season unbeaten. After a shaky start where I kept conceding silly goals and squeezing wins, I gave my mezzala an attacking role. This changed the team fluidity from fluid to flexible which benefited my split press (back 5 being more conservative and front 5 being more aggressive) and made me much more solid at the back.

Have refrained from commenting in here but now I feel I have to get involved. That is just utter nonsense. Your changed worked well because you did what the likes of @Rashidi and @herne79 have always banged on about. You got your roles and duties right. You're just plain deluded if you think changing shape from fluid to flexible is what actually made the difference. 

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Posted (edited)

And yet I was literally seeing my defenders tone down on their adventurousness and get caught less out of position. And my front players press more vigorously. Confirmation bias? Possibly. Coupling it with what the UI is actually saying to me makes it less likely though.

I'm surprised at all the denial. Someone wanted in-game proof -- a couple of posts later you're saying that something like that cannot be proven.

The thing is: team fluidity makes perfect logical sense. The more support roles the more fluid the system is and the more fluid the system the more individual mentalities average out to the team mentality. By contrast, the more structured a system the more individual mentalities stick to their individual duties. It makes perfect sense, I wouldn't want it any other way.

I always look at individual mentalities for a number of reasons: to see how individual roles correspond with team mentality or the effects of overlaps or playing through the flank. So basically you're claiming that this component of the game is completely broken? If so, have you filed an urgent bug report? Can a developer please confirm this?

Edited by Ein

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1 hour ago, Ein said:

And yet I was literally seeing my defenders tone down on their adventurousness and get caught less out of position. And my front players press more vigorously. Confirmation bias? Possibly. Coupling it with what the UI is actually saying to me makes it less likely though

Ok go ahead change the mezzala back to support and turn the CF to an attack duty. You should be go from fluid to flexible. According to your premise a change in shape will now cause your team to perform better.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Ok go ahead change the mezzala back to support and turn the CF to an attack duty. You should be go from fluid to flexible. According to your premise a change in shape will now cause your team to perform better.

No, that wouldn't work for a different reason. I'm not saying that fluidity is the alpha and omega of FM19. Other factors like formation, team instructions, player roles are obviously still (and more) relevant.

Instead of having this pointless debate, can a developer please confirm that team fluidity has no relation to individual mentalities and that the UI is broken?

On 24/06/2019 at 23:20, herne79 said:

The following is taken from the FM19 Tactical Changes thread (verified by SI) pinned to the top of the forum since last October:

"The way Team Fluidity works is essentially as a guide on how to structure our teams in a way we desire.  Prior to this there was nothing to help us set up our roles.  So for example – if you set all your attackers to attack and all your defenders to defend you’ll be playing in a very “structured” manner: defenders defend, attackers attack.  Now change everyone to a support duty and your team will be playing with a more “fluid” style; everybody supports each other."

The issue is not whether the team fluidity indicator itself causes the changes but whether playing more support roles (which the game indicates as being more fluid) causes the defensive and attacking roles to stick closer to the team mentality (or the support roles).

Edited by Ein

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22 minutes ago, Ein said:

can a developer please confirm that team fluidity has no relation to individual mentalities and that the UI is broken?

It was, back in October.  It's pinned to the top of the forum.  And if you say "but aha! that doesn't mention a UI bug" - if SI have said Team Fluidity is nothing more than a label and that Team Shape is gone, what do you think that says about the UI if the UI says otherwise?  (And it has actually been raised as a UI bug anyway).

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1 minute ago, herne79 said:

It was, back in October.  It's pinned to the top of the forum.  And if you say "but aha! that doesn't mention a UI bug" - if SI have said Team Fluidity is nothing more than a label and that Team Shape is gone, what do you think that says about the UI if the UI says otherwise?  (And it has actually been raised as a UI bug anyway).

Read the rest of my post. This is not about the label. The label itself simply describes the number of support roles. The question is whether the number of support roles (which is called 'team fluidity') affects the mentality of the rest of the squad (making the defensive/attacking duties stick closer or more distant to them depending on the case). By the way, this is exactly what SI are saying here: "So for example – if you set all your attackers to attack and all your defenders to defend you’ll be playing in a very “structured” manner: defenders defend, attackers attack.  Now change everyone to a support duty and your team will be playing with a more “fluid” style; everybody supports each other."

I see now that you were getting hung up on semantics. If I throw a stone at someone, he will be killed by the lump of matter we call a stone not by the label 'stone' itself. For all intents and purposes, we can say that the stone killed him. And you'd be wasting everyone's time by saying that 'stone' is just a label.

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19 minutes ago, Ein said:

This is not about the label.

I know.  You asked if SI could confirm things, I told you they already did and where you can find that confirmation.

However, when you say:

21 minutes ago, Ein said:

By the way, this is exactly what SI are saying here: "So for example – if you set all your attackers to attack and all your defenders to defend you’ll be playing in a very “structured” manner: defenders defend, attackers attack.  Now change everyone to a support duty and your team will be playing with a more “fluid” style; everybody supports each other."

Your interpretation is incorrect.  That quote is talking about player duty only and has nothing to do with one (or more) changes in duty affecting everyone else's mentality because it doesn't happen.

25 minutes ago, Ein said:

I see now that you were getting hung up on semantics.

This has nothing to do with semantics.  You are asserting that changing one player's duty affects everyone else's mentality.  It doesn't.  It really is no more complicated than that.  You just refuse to believe it because a) the UI says otherwise (which I said has been raised as a bug) and b) how changing your mezzala from support to attack apparently made your front 5 more aggressive while becoming more solid at the back (which rashidi since explained for you and seeing as you only conceded 18 goals all season and didn't lose a single match how much "more solid" did you actually get anyway).

Anyway, this is just going round and round in circles.  There really isn't anything else I can say to help you so I'll leave it here.

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What a mess. User interface says one thing, developers say another. Bring back sliders I say! :D

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On 25/06/2019 at 19:01, Experienced Defender said:

I think you are confusing creative freedom with fluid play. With a more structured team fluidity, the style of playing will naturally be less fluid than with a more fluid one. However, this is not because creative freedom has increased after you went more fluid, but because more support duties - which is what actually boosts the fluidity - make the players behave as a compact unit, thereby leading to a more fluid style of play. In other words, you have more players supporting each other, so the transitions look smoother. Which I guess is what creates your impression that "creative freedom" has increased.

No I'm actually talking about that tactical familarity for creative freedom changes with changes in duties. Also you can see your team perform closer to their instructions if on a lower level of creative freedom. 

5 hours ago, Jack Joyce said:

We're very much aware that the way fluidity is displayed in the game is confusing at the moment and are planning to make some improvements in this regard in the future.

Actually it rather is confusing that "something"  seem to have an effect to player mentality and creative freedom depending on how you set up your overall fluidity (combination of duties) . At least this is what the UI shows. Properbly it even is as @herne79 said an UI glitch / bug. But a clear statement would be nice then. 

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