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Expected Player Upgrades in FM19 (Just guessing)

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10 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

Ignore the first two moments, those were just two general turnovers.  It's my second ever video edit and I am a lazy bugger ;-)

I would say Frenkie is (partially) at fault with all 3 goals, and I'm not sure with the 3rd moment of these highlights either, the ref didn't all a penalty - I agree with that decision, but it's a tricky situation to find yourself in.

Hmmmm I think the penalty call is the right call. 1st goal is extremely harsh to say it’s his fault, 2nd goal also quite harsh considering he has an overload of 2 vs 1. 3rd goal he could do better. 

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From watching the video, honestly I don't see how those goals are indicative of low levels of marking and tackling techniques. What being highlighted though was that he has issues with his (speaking in relevant FM terms) Decisions, Anticipation and general speed, in my opinion :)

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7 hours ago, ajsr1982 said:

Players in general over overpaid? I don't understand this. Do you mean English-based players, or are you talking about wider societal issues?  If you look at this year's Ballon d'Or nominees, you'll find 11/30 are English-based. The rest play for PSG, Juventus, or the big three Spanish clubs. Outside this, there's only really Bayern Munich that are part of the same financially capable group. That's where the best (and highest paid) players play.

Sweeping statement time: To get a regular game at a top six English club, you have to be in the top 300 players in the world, or at least on your way to that level. (I know there are notable exceptions. They don't last long.)

 

All players in general are overpaid and overpriced now. 

Players from EPL are overrated, in general. Especially the English players.

There are always exceptions to general statements though.

5 hours ago, Vicz said:

Just watching the livestream and Frenkie de Jong still has tackling of 6 haha. I know he’s no Paolo Maldini but 6? Really?

shrugs 

09F75248-678C-4455-AABD-145EBB28DB37.png

And positioning of 6 too is ridiculous. I would rate marking at 10, tackling at 11-12 and positioning at 13.

It's ok, that's why there is the editor. Some players are underrated while others are overrated.

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

All players in general are overpaid and overpriced now. 

Players from EPL are overrated, in general. Especially the English players.

There are always exceptions to general statements though.

And positioning of 6 too is ridiculous. I would rate marking at 10, tackling at 11-12 and positioning at 13.

It's ok, that's why there is the editor. Some players are underrated while others are overrated.

Also remember that they were running an alpha build of the game, so I'd put money on them not using the finalised beta database in the stream.

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7 hours ago, Reddiablo said:

If you compare with FM18 you'll see quite some adjustments.

Surprisingly perhaps, Frenkie is not a type of player that performs a lot of tackles, so yes - he has a relatively low rating in that. He's not a particular tackling type of player. 

After actually taking it upon myself to look, there are very little/no changes between those stats and Frenkie's FM18 stats. I'm only just realising you're a head researcher now, does that mean you've had input into the game or is that just a fancy forum tag? Genuine question I don't know how it works haha...

30 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Also remember that they were running an alpha build of the game, so I'd put money on them not using the finalised beta database in the stream.

I suspect you maybe right. The 2 screenshots of Leon Bailey and Benjamin Pavard they've previously released had identical stats to their FM18 starting stats. They're probably keeping the new DB under wraps till beta. I really hope that's the case because I do think those stats are not correct for Frenkie...

Edited by Vicz

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16 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Also remember that they were running an alpha build of the game, so I'd put money on them not using the finalised beta database in the stream.

I know but I hope they will correct some of the data for the Beta and even later for the complete release. And if they don't I will spend some time with the pre-game editor. 

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I would like them to add somekind of stats for that takes account player age and experience. It is just sometimes hard to see youngsters with crazy mental abilities that have not played on highest stages. And more experienced players should get somekind of boost of it.

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On 12/10/2018 at 09:08, karanhsingh said:

Fred is really bad in FM18 too. He should be upgraded.

It's not like he's all that amazing in real life either, his current stats are very fair.

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Plenty of Serie A players will need upgrades. I mostly know about Napoli as I'm a fan, but Koulibaly, Insigne, Allan, Ghoulam and Gaetano all need upgrades, while Hamsik, Callejon, Rui and Hysaj at least need downgrades (Hysaj especially for crossing, he currently has 13 I believe but he only averages about 5 successful crosses per season).

Outside Napoli, I'd say Chiesa (PA/CA upgrade), Barrow (CA/PA upgrade), Belotti (CA downgrade), Candreva (CA downgrade), Wallace (CA downgrade) all definitely need changes off the top of my head.

Edited by Nuliag

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Koulibaly also should receive better score for his Passing attribute too, in my opinion.

His height should defo be downgraded though :D

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Javier Hernandez needs a downgrade IMO. He got 30+ goals a season for me for two straight seasons before his decline.

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almost every player mentioned is already one of the best or potentially one of the best in their position on fm18

need more downgrades

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 20:04, Reddiablo said:

If you compare with FM18 you'll see quite some adjustments.

Surprisingly perhaps, Frenkie is not a type of player that performs a lot of tackles, so yes - he has a relatively low rating in that. He's not a particular tackling type of player. 

OPTA stats show that Frenkie de Jong was the number 1 player in Holland in winning personal man to man battles/duels (over the first 18 matches of the 2017/2018 season. He won 75,2!! % of his 121 duels. Keep in mind that when that stat was taken he had mostly played as a central defender. In the top 5 of that stat 5 players are also central defenders. Frenkie de Jong is a better header, better positioner and a lot stronger than he might seem judged on his boyish face.

I find it disappointing that you bring up the PSV - Ajax match of this year to underline Frenkie's defensive weakness. Instead you could also have choosen the Ajax - PSV match in december 2017 where Frenkie ruled as in incoming DC and PSV was butchered 3-0.

The 3-0 win of PSV a few weeks ago was because my club (PSV) outplayed the dumb Ajax tactic of having two shorter players in the DC against big man Luuk de Jong, one of the best attacking headers in Europe. Next to that Ajax was outplayed on pure aggression and PSV just made Ajax look bad in this one particular match including De Jong. Four days earlier against AEK Athene in the CL De Jong had again ruled as a DC, winning lots of personal battles and even tackling quite good.

No he is not a natural DC by any means but his tackling should be around 11, marking at 10, positioning at 14 and next to that his heading and especially strength (based on him winning the most battles) should be upped quite a bit i.m.o. 

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I'd like to see the following players get some good upgrades:

- Steven Bergwijn (PSV), his finishing, strength and CA/PA could use an upgrade

- Rosario (PSV). The surprise of the season so far, lots of physical and passing potential when used as a BWM

- Donyell Malen (PSV), excitingly fast attacking talent who will be Lozano's natural successor

- Dumfries (PSV), a physical beast of a DR, strong and fast, great tackler and next to that PA wise he shows every season that he does not have any difficulty adepting to a higher level\

- Angelino (PSV): fanastic complete wing back who could really do a lot better than PSV in a year or two I'd reckon

- De Ligt (Ajax), should have a PA as high as Varane, Ramos, Pique etc and his defensive skills should have a big upgrade compared to FM18

- Frenkie de Jong obviously

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

OPTA stats show that Frenkie de Jong was the number 1 player in Holland in winning personal man to man battles/duels (over the first 18 matches of the 2017/2018 season. He won 75,2!! % of his 121 duels. Keep in mind that when that stat was taken he had mostly played as a central defender. In the top 5 of that stat 5 players are also central defenders. Frenkie de Jong is a better header, better positioner and a lot stronger than he might seem judged on his boyish face.

I find it disappointing that you bring up the PSV - Ajax match of this year to underline Frenkie's defensive weakness. Instead you could also have choosen the Ajax - PSV match in december 2017 where Frenkie ruled as in incoming DC and PSV was butchered 3-0.

The 3-0 win of PSV a few weeks ago was because my club (PSV) outplayed the dumb Ajax tactic of having two shorter players in the DC against big man Luuk de Jong, one of the best attacking headers in Europe. Next to that Ajax was outplayed on pure aggression and PSV just made Ajax look bad in this one particular match including De Jong. Four days earlier against AEK Athene in the CL De Jong had again ruled as a DC, winning lots of personal battles and even tackling quite good.

No he is not a natural DC by any means but his tackling should be around 11, marking at 10, positioning at 14 and next to that his heading and especially strength (based on him winning the most battles) should be upped quite a bit i.m.o. 

You name a lot of things, except for his tackling prowess bar AEK against a weaker opponent. His tackling will remain below 10 and that 's the end of this discussion. I back my assistents and fellow people that help me out in the daily aspects of football analytics. The original question is, has Frenkie de Jong received an improvement? Yes, he has.

Thanks!

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2 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

You name a lot of things, except for his tackling prowess bar AEK against a weaker opponent. His tackling will remain below 10 and that 's the end of this discussion. I back my assistents and fellow people that help me out in the daily aspects of football analytics. The original question is, has Frenkie de Jong received an improvement? Yes, he has.

Thanks!

He hasn't based on the alpha. I'm assuming those alpha is not representative of what will be on FM19.

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1 minute ago, Reddiablo said:

You name a lot of things, except for his tackling prowess bar AEK against a weaker opponent. His tackling will remain below 10 and that 's the end of this discussion. I back my assistents and fellow people that help me out in the daily aspects of football analytics. The original question is, has Frenkie de Jong received an improvement? Yes, he has.

Thanks!

That is the right you of course have with your position as head researcher. But if facts from OPTA do not convince you of also says something about your objectiveness. 

Since FM usually relies heavily on match and player stats from the likes of OPTA it does surprise me that you are not even willing to dive into this to see if your subjective view of one's defensive skills might actually be wrong. 

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10 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

That is the right you of course have with your position as head researcher. But if facts from OPTA do not convince you of also says something about your objectiveness. 

Since FM usually relies heavily on match and player stats from the likes of OPTA it does surprise me that you are not even willing to dive into this to see if your subjective view of one's defensive skills might actually be wrong. 

Sorry, but there are many aspects - not just in FM that determine whether or not a player is good at certain aspects. This is not just based on Opta stats. THis is based on several issues and situations. Go back to the drawing board, what makes a player a good defender and what is important to determinte (in game as well) how are player handles at certain moments. This is not just tackling, marking, defending - but goes beyond this.  Movement, decisions and several more attributes.  We've thorougly scouted Frenkie de Jong since his Willem II days  (including professionals at scouting areas) and this is what we have determined.  Stats are always something to consider but it needs to be seen in combination with all kinds of aspects. A good percentage is nice, but isn't the be all and end all to determine a number.

 

Apologies if I seem harsh - that's not my intention; just trying to be matter of fact so that we don't debate this until forever :-D

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19 hours ago, Nuliag said:

Plenty of Serie A players will need upgrades. I mostly know about Napoli as I'm a fan, but Koulibaly, Insigne, Allan, Ghoulam and Gaetano all need upgrades, while Hamsik, Callejon, Rui and Hysaj at least need downgrades (Hysaj especially for crossing, he currently has 13 I believe but he only averages about 5 successful crosses per season).

Outside Napoli, I'd say Chiesa (PA/CA upgrade), Barrow (CA/PA upgrade), Belotti (CA downgrade), Candreva (CA downgrade), Wallace (CA downgrade) all definitely need changes off the top of my head.

Do you think Jorginho needs an upgrade mate?

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3 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

Sorry, but there are many aspects - not just in FM that determine whether or not a player is good at certain aspects. This is not just based on Opta stats. THis is based on several issues and situations. Go back to the drawing board, what makes a player a good defender and what is important to determinte (in game as well) how are player handles at certain moments. This is not just tackling, marking, defending - but goes beyond this.  Movement, decisions and several more attributes.  We've thorougly scouted Frenkie de Jong since his Willem II days  (including professionals at a scouting areas) and this is what we have determined.  Stats are always something to consider but it needs to be seen in combination with all kinds of aspects. A good percentage is nice, but isn't the be all and end all to determine a number.

Quite a good explanation and I value your careful deliberations. End of the day Frenkie should of course not be a DC but a playmaking dmc or mc and in that sense he is quite good, although I imagine his PA is rubbish just because he is in the Dutch league.

However all of his defensive attributes are quite low and that does not really paint the overall picture of his defensive capabilities statwise (Won battles, interceptions etc). 

But never mind, the editor is one's best Friend :)

 

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18 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

Quite a good explanation and I value your careful deliberations. End of the day Frenkie should of course not be a DC but a playmaking dmc or mc and in that sense he is quite good, although I imagine his PA is rubbish just because he is in the Dutch league.

However all of his defensive attributes are quite low and that does not really paint the overall picture of his defensive capabilities statwise (Won battles, interceptions etc). 

But never mind, the editor is one's best Friend :)

 

What I'd like to add is that if the researchers decided that Frenkie de Jong deserves the attributes spread that he'll have in FM 19, then what does that say about the defensive quality of other defenders in Eredivisie? And will de Jong performs in FM 19 as close as he does in real life when compared to other Central Defenders in the league? Not even mentioning compared to the standards of the other teams in the continent.

I'm one of the opinion that even a score below 10 for his Tackling sounds a bit too low for him, but having said that though, there's not much that we can do at this point other than wait and see. All that I know is that in FM, even players with mediocre rating for a certain attribute which related to a particular skill of the game, like Tackling for example, won't necessarily mean that the player in game will do a mediocre job there. One of my best ever tackler for a top level team had a very mediocre attribute point for Tackling, but he consistently win almost all of his tackling attempts (of which he does a very high number of per matches as well, because we're playing a rather defensive football,) and in that particular case, I believe his other attributes played a big part of him being an excellent tackler; namely, he possessed excellent numbers for Decision, Anticipation, Positioning and Acceleration :)

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Suspect Jamall Lacelles will be upgraded at Newcastle based on last season.

Perhaps a few more given Rafa made most of them look better than the actually are........ (looking at you Mo Diame) 

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On 16/10/2018 at 15:01, essien_5 said:

Do you think Jorginho needs an upgrade mate?

I actually think he was one of our most fairly represented players (I believe he was the only one I didn't modify at all in my personal data update), but personally I'd still upgrade him slightly in the new game. A couple of +1s to attributes like composure, vision and positioning would probably be fair, to bring him to a CA of around 157, with a bump in PA to about 161. As things stand though with his 18 passing and well rounded mentals and physicals I would certainly understand if they didn't update him at all.

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I think in the winter update Brekalo is due for some upgrade. In every save that showed the Bundesliga so far he'd been loan listed, sometimes even going into the second league whereas this season in real life he's been a key player in the team's offensive and about the only winger available to really dribble past his opponents and bringing some danger from wide.

On a similar note, time to downgrade some other players. Year after year Wolfsburg struggles in real life but is quite the good team in game. In 17 the mental stats of the key players Malli/Didavi and Gomez's early injury helped make it somewhat balanced but it still was actively hard to copy real life. I think Off the Ball needs to go down for half the Midfield and Forwards.

But I guess Guilavogui is the weird player here who either is too good in game or plays completely differently from real life. That and the weirdness from Brroks and Knoche who apparently roll a d20 every weekend to determine their Concentration stat...

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Alberto Moreno's defensive stats are still massively overrated, you wont see many fullbacks with amazing defensive attributes so for him to have those values is just wrong. Its been left untouched for quite a long time when he has kept showing how much of a defensive liability he is IRL which those stats definitely dont show. Also feel like Hector Bellerin also has some very generous, perhaps too generous defensive attributes, specially on his marking and positioning while his acceleration shouldn't be that high either imo, he has lost some of it in recent times, now on the other hand, his stamina could be a little higher.

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I would log any potential challenges you have in the relevant data forum for the relevant club. The club researcher will then be able to respond to you

I'm sure he/she will be grateful for advice or alternative views but his word will be final along with Pete or Dean. That said its not too late at this point for changes to occur.

Additionally if you are looking to increase attributes then compare to other players in the league or club, as it may be that another player should be reduced rather than another get increased ;)

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On 12/10/2018 at 09:30, Sunshinelufc said:

Vieira went backwards last season, possibly because he was playing in a team completely devoid of confidence. He has the potential to be a starter in the top leagues in the future but not as highly rated as he was in previous FMs. He is let down by technique and passing but he uses his strength really well. He was going to be back up to Phillips this season for that reason before the club sold him to the disagreement of Bielsa to raise funds.

We have seen a couple of really promising midfielders come through the academy in the last 10 years where we knew they would play for England. Whilst Vieira was decent he was no where near the standard of Delph and Cook at similar ages (not played for England yet but has been in the squad). Experience in Italy may help his game though and Leeds fans often follow their ex academy players to see how they develop.

Viera was great at being "safe' last yeat. When news of Bielsa joining leeds broke out i immediately assumed Viera was in for the cm playing as cb that Bielsa often deploys. Irl last season he was nursed through tendonitis in his knees but marshalled the midfield wellif he gets game time the move is a great one for him. I really hope he doesnt become a Mowatt 

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