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What is false 9 ? And how to break it? what is Gegenpressing ? How to beat Gegenpressing?

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some usefull tip

 

what is Gegenpressing?How to beat Gegenpressing?

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The gegenpressing is effectively used by Jurgen Klopp with liverpool and they were defeated by united on multiple occasions. Here is Ryan Giggs explaining how to bypass the gegenpressing.

Basically if you can bypass the midfield and play a long ball to a high playing midfielder or striker then its possible to bypass the press and this was effectively used by United by means of long balls to Fellaini.

 

 

What is false 9? And how to break it?

 

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False-9 is more of a position than a formation. Many managers found success employing that position in their teams - Francesco Totti for Roma, Robin van Persie for Arsenal. But Lionel Messi, first under Pep Guardiola and then under Tito Vilanova, changed history playing in that position. False-9 is a striker who drops deep (into the midfield) rather than playing in the opposition box.

There are many formations that can be employed to counter the false-9. The basic concept is to not allow much space for the false-9 to operate. Congest the space in front of the defense.

  • A 4-2-3-1 with a good double pivot is the simplest solution.
  • A 3-5-3 formation, in which the central defense is given the freedom to mark the false-9, will also work. Guardiola's Bayern Munich tried to do that in the first leg of UCL 2014-15 semifinal against Barcelona.
  • Chelsea way of doing it would to park the bus in your own half, like they did against Barcelona in UCL 2011-12 en route to winning it.
  • Finally, deep-lying playmakers like Andrea Pirlo can also be tasked to mark the false-9.

 

 

 

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long balls to Fellaini,remember Mourinho do this in his 1st season vs Liverpool,game end up 1:1

Mourinho play this way at last minute.

United get the goal back at last few minute,long ball to Fellaini,then some body score.

 

Quote

"Louis [Van Gaal] felt that the way out of their press was to look to bypass their midfield when it was possible and that was done by going long to Marouane Fellaini, who started all four games," Giggs details in his Telegraph column.

"We needed to play the game in their half of the pitch.

"As a passing team we would back ourselves to get out of their press, and against Liverpool you have to be sharp with just one or two touches on the ball."

 

Edited by kpsia518

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39 minutes ago, Bluebird123 said:

What?

just for study real life football.

FM19 look more like real life style now

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long balls practically cured geggen pressing, this is what happened in klopps final season in the bundesliga, more teams effectively just hoofed the ball upfield bypassing the entire press, since dortmund weren't used to breaking defenses down at that point they couldn't score and lost a lot of games that way

 

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3-5-3? That's some formation. :D

I will disagree that a 4231 is a formation to use to stop False 9. If facing a 4123 wide with F9, then the "2" holding midfielders in a 4231 will have to look after the 2 MCs, which will make it impossible for them to also defend the F9 dropping deep.

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30 minutes ago, yonko said:

I will disagree that a 4231 is a formation to use to stop False 9. If facing a 4123 wide with F9, then the "2" holding midfielders in a 4231 will have to look after the 2 MCs, which will make it impossible for them to also defend the F9 dropping deep

Defending against a F9 (or any other role for that matter) has little (if anything) to with the formation you use. Focusing on a single opposition player to the extent that you are adapting your entire tactic and formation to that single player is completely wrong in my view, even if he is Messi himself. Because when deciding on your tactical approach to a certain match, you need to understand that you are not playing against their best / most dangerous player, but against a whole team, i.e. against a tactical system that involves a number of elements and that particular player is just a component of the system, and not the system itself.

You can play (and defend) successfully against a team that employs an F9 regardless of the formation you use. It can be a flat 4-4-2, a normal 4231(with 2 MCs) or any other system. The only (but at the same time most important) thing you need to do is choose the right mentality, shape, roles, duties, TIs, PIs and OIs :kriss:

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Well my theory on beating Gegenpressing might be more based on my real life experiences of watching football than what is capable in FM. 

Playing from the back is a game of chess. Some teams play from the back as a matter of ego. Other teams stop playing from the back back as a matter of ego. If you follow either strategy just for the sake of it you are doomed to failure. 

I feel my team in real life get the balance right. We have a 188cm RB. If you try to stop the short pass out of defence, then a simple chipped pass to the right half space on half way line is one flick on to a full on counter attack. 

Im not sure such an obvious exploit is available in FM. The point being if you can create a perceived style of play, you can take advantage in other ways. (I come from a poker background where this key to exploitative play). 

With the flexibility of tactical options I’ve seen in the FM19 previews, we might be able to create such exploits. Explicitly, a team with a Tiki Taka philosophy in FM19 might cause AI managers to set up a certain way. But if the one deviation from a Tiki Taka style is the hoof to a “full back target man for goal kicks only” we might be onto something!

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Defending against a F9 (or any other role for that matter) has little (if anything) to with the formation you use. Focusing on a single opposition player to the extent that you are adapting your entire tactic and formation to that single player is completely wrong in my view, even if he is Messi himself. Because when deciding on your tactical approach to a certain match, you need to understand that you are not playing against their best / most dangerous player, but against a whole team, i.e. against a tactical system that involves a number of elements and that particular player is just a component of the system, and not the system itself.

You can play (and defend) successfully against a team that employs an F9 regardless of the formation you use. It can be a flat 4-4-2, a normal 4231(with 2 MCs) or any other system. The only (but at the same time most important) thing you need to do is choose the right mentality, shape, roles, duties, TIs, PIs and OIs :kriss:

Great. Show me an example where you have successfully defended against a F9 with 442 or 4231 formation using combination of the above mentioned tools.

I'm well aware that you don't defend focusing on just one player. That's why I said that if the 2 midfielders focus on the F9 they will leave space for the others to exploit.

 

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In reality you need to strengthen your central midfield & be very good at making options for the ball carrier. 

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5 hours ago, yonko said:

Great. Show me an example where you have successfully defended against a F9 with 442 or 4231 formation using combination of the above mentioned tools.

Again, I don't defend against the F9 but against the entire team. If I play against Barca and Messi is their F9 for example, I will use a defensive approach not because Messi plays as F9 but because it's simply Barca, so it would be suicidal to go attacking against them regardless of which role Messi would perform in the match. On the other hand, if I played against a weaker team which also uses the F9 role, I would not have to play defensively, because we are stronger and should be able to dominate them regardless of their F9. 

But let's simplify it even more. If I play against a team having Messi or a player of his quality, would I instruct any of my players to specifically man-mark him? Never. So how would I deal with him defensively? Using OIs on him. Which particular OIs? TM Always and Easy Tackling for sure. Would I use CD always and/or Show Onto (this or that) foot? Depends on which formation and tactic we are using in that match, the formation of the opposition and his position in that formation (and a number of other factors including the rest of the opposition players, quality of our defenders and more defensive-minded midfielders and so on).

3 hours ago, mourinho-herrera-defense said:

mourinho combated the use of messi as a false nine just by having pepedive into tackles and acting as a destroyer to him, basically man marking him

I don't know which Mourino's match against Messi you are pointing out, but I remember how Mourinho's Inter almost completely neutralized Messi in their famous semi-final ECL game. It was totally different from what you said. They never tackled hard on Messi, but were closing him down all the time and looked to isolate him as much as possible (in FM that would be the TM Always OI + CD Always + Tackle Easy). And even the naturally aggressive Thiago Motta refrained from going hard on Messi in that match :lol: But also an important fact is that Inter used a "Portuguese 4-3-3" formation (or 4-2-1-3 DM Wide in FM terms).

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@mourinho-herrera-defense Sorry, I also made a mistake. In the Inter game I mentioned above, Messi did not even play as an F9 but in AMR position (I think as APM). So it's quite possible that in the Real - Barca match you are referring to, Mourinho did use a more aggressive defending on Messi. I can't remember that match, so cannot be sure :)

P.S: Knowing Pepe's style, he probably went hard on Mesi even if Mourinho told him not to :D

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11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Again, I don't defend against the F9 but against the entire team. If I play against Barca and Messi is their F9 for example, I will use a defensive approach not because Messi plays as F9 but because it's simply Barca, so it would be suicidal to go attacking against them regardless of which role Messi would perform in the match. On the other hand, if I played against a weaker team which also uses the F9 role, I would not have to play defensively, because we are stronger and should be able to dominate them regardless of their F9. 

But let's simplify it even more. If I play against a team having Messi or a player of his quality, would I instruct any of my players to specifically man-mark him? Never. So how would I deal with him defensively? Using OIs on him. Which particular OIs? TM Always and Easy Tackling for sure. Would I use CD always and/or Show Onto (this or that) foot? Depends on which formation and tactic we are using in that match, the formation of the opposition and his position in that formation (and a number of other factors including the rest of the opposition players, quality of our defenders and more defensive-minded midfielders and so on).

This is not showing an example. And now this goes in different direction to what I originally replied to.

Moving on.

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19 hours ago, yonko said:

Great. Show me an example where you have successfully defended against a F9 with 442 or 4231 formation using combination of the above mentioned tools.

I'm well aware that you don't defend focusing on just one player. That's why I said that if the 2 midfielders focus on the F9 they will leave space for the others to exploit.

 

Okay, let's say the opposition is playing a 433 or 4123 DM Wide as referred to in FM: The F9 drops deep essentially creating a diamond in midfield...how can you stop this using a 4231? Now, this is for the sake of argument, I wouldn't actually do this, but theoretically, could you ask your AM to man-mark one of the...  as I'm typing this I've realised that no matter who marks who, you're still going to be outnumbered 3-2 centrally :D As you were folks. 

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9 hours ago, jc577 said:

Okay, let's say the opposition is playing a 433 or 4123 DM Wide as referred to in FM: The F9 drops deep essentially creating a diamond in midfield...how can you stop this using a 4231? Now, this is for the sake of argument, I wouldn't actually do this, but theoretically, could you ask your AM to man-mark one of the...  as I'm typing this I've realised that no matter who marks who, you're still going to be outnumbered 3-2 centrally :D As you were folks.

You are not outnumbered (even if we look at it in these overly simplified terms). In 433/4123DM, the F9 is the only striker, right? And you are using a 4231.  So when he drops deep, your 2 MCs may be "outnumbered", but your 2 DCs are now "free" because they don't have to deal with anyone (as F9 has moved deep into midfield) :D

Of course, it's not how it really works, and football is far more complex (both in FM and RL), but why not have some fun :hammer:

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So what if the 2 CDs are free? What are they doing with that freedom? LOL

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13 minutes ago, yonko said:

So what if the 2 CDs are free? What are they doing with that freedom? LOL

Well, if the opposition outnumbered you by 3 vs 2 in the midfield due to their F9 dropping deep, you are at the same time outnumbering them by 4 vs. 2 in your defensive area because you have 4 defenders against their two wide forwards (AMR & AML). And we'll hopefully agree that your 4 vs. 2 is better than their 3 vs. 2 :brock:

Anyway, this was a joke of course. I think that this F9 discussion has gone in a wrong direction because our ways of viewing football are obviously very different :onmehead:

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Just now, Experienced Defender said:

Well, if the opposition outnumbered you by 3 vs 2 in the midfield due to their F9 dropping deep, you are at the same time outnumbering them by 4 vs. 2 in your defensive area because you have 4 defenders against their two wide forwards (AMR & AML). And we'll hopefully agree that your 4 vs. 2 is better than their 3 vs. 2 :brock:

Anyway, this was a joke of course. I think that this F9 discussion has gone in a wrong direction because our ways of viewing football are obviously very different :onmehead:

The 3v2 advantage is in more key area though. And my 3 have the ball. Those 2 CDs will be picking their noses with their "advantage" and no ball. When the defenders have the ball, the False 9 will press them with the AMRL.

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9 minutes ago, yonko said:

And my 3 have the ball.

We were talking about defending against an F9, not attacking a team using him (as far as I remember). And which "your 3" have the ball? If you play 4231, you don't have 3 but 2 CMs (although your 3 players in the AM strata will also help when defending, unless they are all on attack duties).

11 minutes ago, yonko said:

When the defenders have the ball, the False 9 will press them with the AMRL.

Okay, but so what? If the opposition is playing on high pressing, their forwards will press your defenders anyway (irrespective of F9).

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Not only you don't understand but you also can't follow.

The 3v2 situation is in midfield. My 3 is my 2 CMs and the False 9 when he drops deep in 4123 Wide formation vs 4231 formation. Should I explain which are the 2 in the 3v2 my 3 are facing?

You mentioned the advantage the 4 defenders will have vs the wide forwards in a 4v2. To which I pointed out that when the back 4 has the ball, the False 9 doesn't drop anymore, but rather can press high with the AMRL. So that 4v2 advantage doesn't really exist and it is not crucial like the one 3v2 the False 9 creates in midfield when 4123 vs 4231. And on top of that your 4v2 you mentioned is in different phase to the 3v2 and it has nothing to do with the defending vs the False 9.

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3 ore fa, yonko ha scritto:

My 3 is my 2 CMs and the False 9 when he drops deep in 4123 Wide formation vs 4231 formation. Should I explain which are the 2 in the 3v2 my 3 are facing

why would your striker be allowed to drop deep to create a 3v2 advantage while his AM isn't allowed to drop deep and negate that advantage? heck, he could also put his wide players narrow and have 5v3 advantage there :D

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Beating gegenpressing, for me, isn't about systems, or long ball vs short ball. It's about the timing of transitions.

If you transition early, gegenpressing will get you, because your full backs and some of your midfielders have moved out of position and left you exposed. If you transition late and move up the pitch in a more measured manner, even if you lose the ball in your own half, you have defensive cover. What gegenpressing does well is take advantage of the modern obsession with attacking full backs.

Real Madrid came up with a really interesting way to combat this in the Champions League final. They still used attacking full backs, but Modric and Kroos occupied those full back spaces to a) entice Liverpool into closing them down, which dragged their midfield out of shape, b) open up interesting passing angles, particularly opening up the left hand side with Marcelo, and c) provide defensive cover when they lost the ball. Italy also beat Spain in Euro 16 by playing three at the back and passing the ball really deep in their own half to drag Spain up the pitch, before using their wing backs to support the front two. A bit more long ball in that one, but it worked, because of a three man defence and a relatively unadventurous midfield.

Late transitions can sometimes force the long ball, but it isn't the only way.

As for the False 9... I agree with the guys who say you have to defend the team rather than the individual. The False 9 provides some interesting movement and in theory creates central overloads, but its success is entirely dependent upon what the other players are doing. Any system can combat it by applying sound defensive principles of reducing space in the correct areas.

 

Edited by ajsr1982

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5 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

why would your striker be allowed to drop deep to create a 3v2 advantage while his AM isn't allowed to drop deep and negate that advantage? heck, he could also put his wide players narrow and have 5v3 advantage there :D

He can, of course. But one player (False 9) is forcing him to adjust 5 players to deal with 3. Then the advantage is somewhere else. That's how always is. You can't plug all the holes. If they defend with 5 in midfield, one can involve the DM and Fullbacks/Wingbacks into it and it will be 6v5.

One can always park the bus like Mourinho too.:D

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