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Football Manager 2019 Feature Blogs: Training Overhaul

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1 minute ago, phnompenhandy said:

My point is, it's not been effective for years. I manage part-time teams who can close down and press all match all year. Shouldn't be possible.

I agree with you. All i just want to say we have to see how its implemented in game, Given they are changing training Could change the way of how it effects on pitch.Till now we have only fitness training in Global along with Physical aspects for individual training. With more options i feel we have to wait how they all group into bigger effect.  I really hope to see that changes to desired effect. 

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I really wonder how this training will help in the tactic and how will work in the ME.

Find interesting that maybe my worst enemy will be defeated: Attacking impatient by my guys in possession tactics. I've seen that there is one "attacking patient" on those pics, and if this works,I will love it. Hate to see a lovely passing and possession in front of the opposition box being interrupted by a long kick when I have work ball in the box and retain possession ticked. Let's see how it works.

Edited by masno

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My first reaction to the first screenshoot, was a feast of colour. WOW... that is a lot of stuff in there. But the others screenshoots, that this could be quite nice. Probably another mini game, but I will give benefit of the doubt with this.

Also it is nice to see SI has come full circle with their training, going back to the idea of CM4 training schedule. Sure in FM19 will be a lot more complexed, but the idea is the same.

 

Midfielders.gif

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Looks like something that was in much older versions of the game in the Championship Manager era. Question will be how much benefit will there be from the extra time taken to set all the individual training plans. 

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Mentoring affects the younger players’ personality and player traits... 

Does this mean that DETERMINATION can no longer be improved through tutoring?! Argh!

 

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1 minute ago, 2feet said:

Does this mean that DETERMINATION can no longer be improved through tutoring?! Argh!

 

Determination can form part of a player's personality, it's not a separate thing.  eg., the personalities called Determined, Fairly Determined, Resolute and Driven (to name but 4) all require a pretty high value for the Determination attribute.  So unless there have been very extensive changes which we are yet to hear about, altering Determination will be part of Mentoring.

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Mentoring affects the younger players’ personality and player traits... 

Does this mean that DETERMINATION can no longer be improved through tutoring?! Argh!

 

I mean if I get at player with 15 in determination to tutor a player with 10 in determination, will his determination attribute increase?

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On 27/09/2018 at 15:10, ForzaCarpi said:

I see in the video coloured dots in the gym, in the medical center, in the pitch during training day and so on....but are we really see this????

Same question here

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269.gif

 

The specific sub-training routines are a TERRIBLE idea that should have never been brought back... It was one of the huge factors that drove me away from early FM releases, and I maintain it's overkill at best and completely absurdity at worst.

That kind of stuff should be kept under the hood, taken care of by Tactical Training accordingly with tactics and playing styles (e.g. if I play a tiki-taka style, the focus is automatically on possession, attacking movement etc, instead of on, say, long balls or crosses).

One of the few straightforward and not-so-joblike features has now become a tedious chore, with potentially save-killing consequences (that you'll find out when it's too late).

Il 27/9/2018 in 14:21 , Lucas ha scritto:

Bring back Pig in the Middle ;) 

Urgh!

I thought those days were behind us for good...

Il 27/9/2018 in 17:31 , jayahr ha scritto:

Is it cool that this new feature resembles something that was there already 20 years ago so much? Not sure.

IMO it's not cool, not in the slightest.

Anstoss was ok, but the training part was a bit of a mess, and it was in a game that didn't have 1/10 of the insane micromanagement FM has. So a rather cumbersome training mode in Anstoss was a plus, as it separated the game from the other "click and play" football management games of the era.

But do FM need an extra layer of life-consuming immersion in 2019? Don't we have enough stuff to attend to?

The new Tactical Interface made me want to preorder now. The Training module has cooled off my interest immediately.

I see I'm in the minority here, but to me it's a dismal choice.

Edited by RBKalle

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4 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Urgh!

I thought those days were behind us for good...

It was a joke.... 

6 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

The specific sub-training routines are a TERRIBLE idea that should have never been brought back... It was one of the huge factors that drove me away from early FM releases, and I maintain it's overkill at best and completely absurdity at worst.

That kind of stuff should be kept under the hood, taken care of by Tactical Training accordingly with tactics and playing styles (e.g. if I play a tiki-taka style, the focus is automatically on possession, attacking movement etc, instead of on, say, long balls or crosses).

One of the few straightforward and not-so-joblike features has now become a tedious chore, with potentially save-killing consequences (that you'll find out when it's too late).

Eh, sounds to me like you can leave it, and only interact if you want to: 

Quote

The assistant is perfectly capable of running training on his own and will do so according to his own preferences/attributes. Taking control yourself can give you an edge and allow you to tailor the players to your precise philosophy.

So that might sound promising to you? Not sure why its such a drag on being time consuming if as Seb says, you don't really need to control it yourself at all.

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The Training System gets better and better, the new Mentoring System is a blessing. Mentoring in Groups makes developing new players more easier and realistic. 

Edited by kingking

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21 hours ago, RBKalle said:

But do FM need an extra layer of life-consuming immersion in 2019? Don't we have enough stuff to attend to?

The new Tactical Interface made me want to preorder now. The Training module has cooled off my interest immediately.

I see I'm in the minority here, but to me it's a dismal choice.

Why such a big deal to you when you can delegate all kinds of stuff in FM?  I handle all press conferences, but I realize that if I don't want to, I NEVER have to deal with that part of the game and my save will still be just fine.  The same goes for the new training.  They've already said you can delegate it, so for users who really want to go deeper and focus on academy saves, it's great.  If you don't want to bother with it, then it's no big deal really.

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11 ore fa, kingking ha scritto:

The Training System gets better and better

Are you sure?

How is the current micromanagement better than the old Schedule by categories?

From a "realism" standpoint, I, the Manager, tell my staff: "I want X and Y to focus on their attacking skills and duties", they'll pick whatever routines are best suited for that. Clean, quick and painless.

For a game that claims NOT wanting to be like FIFA Manager, sure SI've been introducing some of their ideas.

Quote

the new Mentoring System is a blessing. Mentoring in Groups makes developing new players more easier and realistic. 

This can be a good addition, but as long as all you need is a player with high PA and a solid enough starting CA, anything else takes a backseat and becomes an interesting distraction.

15 minuti fa, Analog ha scritto:

Why such a big deal to you when you can delegate all kinds of stuff in FM?  I handle all press conferences, but I realize that if I don't want to, I NEVER have to deal with that part of the game and my save will still be just fine.  The same goes for the new training.  They've already said you can delegate it, so for users who really want to go deeper and focus on academy saves, it's great.  If you don't want to bother with it, then it's no big deal really.

It's a big deal for several reasons:

1) It's yet another indication of SI focusing more on "menial" shiny new features that look good on a press release instead of taking care of the core of the game. And god knows how much care AI transfers, hiring, squad building and selection need!

2) Said features get implemented and are rarely working fine the first time around. Cue a patch or two to get them to a "functional" level, but by FM20 the focus will be on, I dunno, "pre-season training camp" or "merchandise stores" and the old-new features will be stuck in the limbo, where they may get a bit of tweaking down the line but with low priority as long as they half-work.

3) Sure, I can delegate... Just like the time one of my players was mad at me for something my AssMan said during a press conference I decided to skip... I've ALWAYS delegated team training to my staff and to be fair I haven't suffered from it, but I still feel it's an unnecessary overcomplication of something that the game should deal with "behind the scenes".

Instead of "leave it to the staff", what about a "enable/disable" option? (And please don't tell me "there's FMT if you don't want to deal with that").

Edited by RBKalle

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@RBKalle I respect your opinion and how you want to play the game, but for sure on point one I can't agree that what you've said is unequivocally true, simply because everything I've read about the training has been far more than "menial" to me.  I focus on youth saves every year with FM and try to build a tactic and then fill it with players that I've moulded to fit it from within the academy.  Surely you can see how these new features are exciting for someone like me, at least on the surface?  Obviously I still need to get in some actual time playing the game before I can make a judgment either way.  Also, who said they didn't also try to improve those things?  They are just listing major changes at this point.

Also, bugs are part of coding.  They work every single year with a deadline, and they do their best to implement whatever they can to improve the game as much as possible, while still providing adequate time for testing.  It's not easy to get that balance right.  Personally, I am doubtful that training is going to work exactly as expected simply because it takes several seasons to see the longterm results under careful training setups.  I hope SI will surprise me and show that they've really put in a lot of time toward testing, and also toward really using custom regimens in those tests.  The rest of your second point is a bit cynical, tbh.

Point three, well you said it's still fine, despite you not liking it.  You have to consider that the rest of us out here also like to play the game in our own preferred ways.  SI are doing what they can to provide diversity of experience and approaches to their games, for people just like you and me - who seem to enjoy playing the game in slightly different ways.  

Your very last point doesn't sound realistic.  Think this through just a bit... disable?  Disable what... training altogether?  Transfers?  How can you realistically disable a part of the game?  Delegation is basically doing that without actually "disabling" things.

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I'm kind of interested how conclusions are being drawn that the new Training module has now become a "tedious chore" (for example) when all that's been shared so far is a couple of screen shots and some very brief text on the matter.

Even if we take full control ourselves, we have no idea how "tedious" it'll be to set things up because we haven't tried it and SI haven't shared it yet.  We've no idea how it's going to pan out during actual game play. 

Of course if some people are already delegating Training to a member of staff because they don't enjoy that aspect of the game then I can understand how the new module may look uninviting to them.  But then as others are saying, SI have catered for that section of players anyway with the delegation function still available.

One other thing I'd like to pick up on:

30 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I've ALWAYS delegated team training to my staff and to be fair I haven't suffered from it, but I still feel it's an unnecessary overcomplication of something that the game should deal with "behind the scenes".

How is Training an overcomplication and something which the game should deal with behind the scenes?  This is Football Manager and - like it or not - Training plays a massive part (arguably the single largest part) of football management.  90 minutes of a match is just the end product of the previous 5/6/7 days of Training, week in week out.  I get you don't enjoy the Training aspect and delegate things, which is perfectly fine - play the game how you enjoy - but to want the game to stick training behind the scenes and think it's an overcomplication kind of takes away a huge part of football management doesn't it?

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22 hours ago, RBKalle said:

 

269.gif

 

The specific sub-training routines are a TERRIBLE idea that should have never been brought back... It was one of the huge factors that drove me away from early FM releases, and I maintain it's overkill at best and completely absurdity at worst.

That kind of stuff should be kept under the hood, taken care of by Tactical Training accordingly with tactics and playing styles (e.g. if I play a tiki-taka style, the focus is automatically on possession, attacking movement etc, instead of on, say, long balls or crosses).

One of the few straightforward and not-so-joblike features has now become a tedious chore, with potentially save-killing consequences (that you'll find out when it's too late).

Urgh!

I thought those days were behind us for good...

IMO it's not cool, not in the slightest.

Anstoss was ok, but the training part was a bit of a mess, and it was in a game that didn't have 1/10 of the insane micromanagement FM has. So a rather cumbersome training mode in Anstoss was a plus, as it separated the game from the other "click and play" football management games of the era.

But do FM need an extra layer of life-consuming immersion in 2019? Don't we have enough stuff to attend to?

The new Tactical Interface made me want to preorder now. The Training module has cooled off my interest immediately.

I see I'm in the minority here, but to me it's a dismal choice.

It looks from this screenshot that you can set training based on a tactical style - isn’t that close to what you’re looking for?

2.png.3d069fabaaed6daf634f65eab29459a3.p

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58 minuti fa, herne79 ha scritto:

I'm kind of interested how conclusions are being drawn that the new Training module has now become a "tedious chore" (for example) when all that's been shared so far is a couple of screen shots and some very brief text on the matter.

Because from what I've seen it's expanding on the Team Training schedule (which IMO was already a bit much), with 2 training sessions per day (plus an extra one?), if that's not tedious micromanagement I don't know what it is.

 

Quote

Even if we take full control ourselves, we have no idea how "tedious" it'll be to set things up because we haven't tried it and SI haven't shared it yet.  We've no idea how it's going to pan out during actual game play. 

Oh come on... ;)

You know how it's going to pan out. 2 Training sessions per day plus an extra one: up to 21 choices per week, where you'll wonder "is Attacking enough, or should I go with Attacking Wings instead?" all the time.

 

Quote

How is Training an overcomplication and something which the game should deal with behind the scenes?  This is Football Manager and - like it or not - Training plays a massive part (arguably the single largest part) of football management.  90 minutes of a match is just the end product of the previous 5/6/7 days of Training, week in week out.  I get you don't enjoy the Training aspect and delegate things, which is perfectly fine - play the game how you enjoy - but to want the game to stick training behind the scenes and think it's an overcomplication kind of takes away a huge part of football management doesn't it?

Training IS important, but this is Football Manager, not Football Head Coach (just like it isn't Football Psychotherapist either). In a few years will we get a Medical Center where you have to pick the rehab schedule for an injured player too? It's "realistic" too, but that doesn't mean it MUST end up in the game!
There must be a line where you say "ok, that's enough realism". Especially when actually fundamental aspects of football management in FM are still far from perfect and need all the time, resources and effort SI can give them.

IMO General and Individual Training were more than enough to replicate training without going so much deep down the rabbit hole of micromanaging.

Besides, what's the % impact of those training schedules (in General Training) on a player's development? Is it more or less important than Individual? Or than actual first-team football?
Wouldn't it be great if all that schedule-creating for GT will end up being for almost naught because in the end its impact is marginal at best and PA (plus playing time) are still the key factors?

I feel the new training is just another brick to add to the overbuilt and shaky Jenga tower the game has become over the years. Secure the foundation and then you can add extra levels, but if you add levels to a brittle foundation, the house will eventually collapse.

Edited by RBKalle

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18 minuti fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

Honestly think some people just complain for sake of complaining now. 

I think I've explained well enough why I don't like it. On the other hand, I've praised the revised Tactical Interface, so it's not as if I'm biased against the game or anything...

Detailed tactical drills have been in previous versions, and they were scrapped for a reason, weren't they? Why resurrect a feature that had been dead for a decade? Was it really necessary besides claiming MORE REALISM!!!!! in a game that needed major changes in core areas?

It may sound unfair or biased, but I maintain this is mainly a "see, we added features!" gimmick.

gen_training.thumb.jpg.8887f2555662cc91c24dce7dc1aa63a7.jpg

Weren't those categories good enough?
 

Do we really need to break Attacking into 3 (or more?) sub-categories? Of course if my tactical setup requires wide play, my attacking training will focus on crossing, whereas a tiki-taka tactic will require possession and a slower build with different OtB movements.

BTW, that pie is the outcome of "delegating"... Not something I'd expect for a 4-2-3-1 Control, but honestly that didn't prevent me for winning or my players from improving. So maybe it's just a debate about something that will have a negligible impact on the overall gameplay and I'll be happily ignoring those pesky schedules anyway.

Edited by RBKalle

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35 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

BTW, that pie is the outcome of "delegating"... Not something I'd expect for a 4-2-3-1 Control, but honestly that didn't prevent me for winning or my players from improving. So maybe it's just a debate about something that will have a negligible impact on the overall gameplay and I'll be happily ignoring those pesky schedules anyway.

This is my concern. The delegation aspects of FM are pretty awful because rather than make cohesive logical decisions by creating a profile of your management preferences and styles and 'learning' from you.... All the delegation is done based on the assistant manager preferences. They dont train in a way that fits logically with your tactic... At the moment i delegate training and see the same pie as you. As you say, doesnt seem to make much difference. I assign individual training and usually happy enough with player development. 

But if the revamp also entails changes to development (to reward those that fully use the module) it will be an issue. I dont have a great deal of time to play... If i feel im handicapped significantly by not having time to set training... But not getting sensible training via delegation... Itl be disappointing. 

That said... I absolutely agree with the opposition to your posts... Training is a big part of football management. The coaches will take the sessions but the manager will give direction as to what training to focus on and will attend the training. 

I can see the training module growing not shrinking. To the point maybe we can view sessions and see body language feedback or ratings from the coaches for effort in training... Or at minimum more regular 'training reports' including training levels. 

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6 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

This is my concern. The delegation aspects of FM are pretty awful because rather than make cohesive logical decisions by creating a profile of your management preferences and styles and 'learning' from you.... All the delegation is done based on the assistant manager preferences. They dont train in a way that fits logically with your tactic... At the moment i delegate training and see the same pie as you. As you say, doesnt seem to make much difference. I assign individual training and usually happy enough with player development. 

But if the revamp also entails changes to development (to reward those that fully use the module) it will be an issue. I dont have a great deal of time to play... If i feel im handicapped significantly by not having time to set training... But not getting sensible training via delegation... Itl be disappointing. 

That said... I absolutely agree with the opposition to your posts... Training is a big part of football management. The coaches will take the sessions but the manager will give direction as to what training to focus on and will attend the training. 

I can see the training module growing not shrinking. To the point maybe we can view sessions and see body language feedback or ratings from the coaches for effort in training... Or at minimum more regular 'training reports' including training levels. 

Like a lot of the new changes, they will of course only work with improvements to the AI. Which will have been done, though I think a trick has been missed here by SI not shouting this out @Neil Brock maybe one for the marketing team to focus on in the next round of features and game news?

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26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

That's a game changer.

Indeed, if the bolded parts are accurate... Ill be very happy. 

Would like to see what the marketing tag lines were when the current training mod came out, i imagine very similar :D

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For me Football Manager the game is tactics, training and the ME. The rest of the stuff is not that important. I enjoy spending time with the training and developing my younger players. If training is more linked to tactics now and has an impact, then that will make it even more enjoyable developing my style and my team according to my style. This is what coaching is about.

I also have less time to play the game, but I'm playing it I rather spend it on aspect I enjoy like tactics and training, which is core of this game IMO.

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Keep an eye on the FM Show in the coming days and weeks for more info on some of the questions here :)

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39 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Keep an eye on the FM Show in the coming days and weeks for more info on some of the questions here :)

Seb or anyone who knows are we going be able set training in national teams too? 

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On 30/09/2018 at 12:40, RBKalle said:

I think I've explained well enough why I don't like it. On the other hand, I've praised the revised Tactical Interface, so it's not as if I'm biased against the game or anything...

Detailed tactical drills have been in previous versions, and they were scrapped for a reason, weren't they? Why resurrect a feature that had been dead for a decade? Was it really necessary besides claiming MORE REALISM!!!!! in a game that needed major changes in core areas?

It may sound unfair or biased, but I maintain this is mainly a "see, we added features!" gimmick.

gen_training.thumb.jpg.8887f2555662cc91c24dce7dc1aa63a7.jpg

Weren't those categories good enough?
 

Do we really need to break Attacking into 3 (or more?) sub-categories? Of course if my tactical setup requires wide play, my attacking training will focus on crossing, whereas a tiki-taka tactic will require possession and a slower build with different OtB movements.

BTW, that pie is the outcome of "delegating"... Not something I'd expect for a 4-2-3-1 Control, but honestly that didn't prevent me for winning or my players from improving. So maybe it's just a debate about something that will have a negligible impact on the overall gameplay and I'll be happily ignoring those pesky schedules anyway.

On 30/09/2018 at 10:49, RBKalle said:

Are you sure?

How is the current micromanagement better than the old Schedule by categories?

From a "realism" standpoint, I, the Manager, tell my staff: "I want X and Y to focus on their attacking skills and duties", they'll pick whatever routines are best suited for that. Clean, quick and painless.

For a game that claims NOT wanting to be like FIFA Manager, sure SI've been introducing some of their ideas.

This can be a good addition, but as long as all you need is a player with high PA and a solid enough starting CA, anything else takes a backseat and becomes an interesting distraction.

 

 

At the end of the day. I support any change to the Tactics, Training and ME/AI etc that creates more depth and layers. i support any change that creates more depth.

In-Depth/Realistic ( 3 three sessions per day + variety of different specific or general training sessions) Checked  :thup:

Not complex or Tedious  (Delegate the Training to Assistant Manager or do it yourself ) Checked :thup:

I don't understand the complaint in adding more depth in Training? It doesn't create more confusion because there will be guides for it,

it isn't tedious because you have an assistant manager that can do it for you.

It doesn't waste the managers time because it is an important aspect of management that helps improve your team 

image.gif

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Edited by kingking

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On 30/09/2018 at 13:51, herne79 said:

If you already find the current Team Training module a bit much for you then I agree you'll probably find the revamp tedious.

Perfectly understandable.  The delegation part here will be very important to see how "good" our assistants are at setting things up for us.  Something we won't know until we can actually try it.

However, I think one important point has been largely overlooked throughout this thread.  From the OP:

"The different sessions across the weeks and months of the season make up your training schedule. You can adjust the preset schedules or even create your own bespoke programme from scratch via the Schedules tab. You’ll see that there are several preset schedules for pre-season as well as in-season training and there are even schedules that allow you to work on your tactical style of play with your players. 

The variety of preset schedules lets you cater for your team’s needs across the season such as when you need to prepare for a big match or when you have a period of fixture congestion. Even travelling to and from away matches is factored into your team’s routine. You can combine these week-long schedules to fit around your team’s fixtures for the weeks ahead or work on something more long-term, such as ingraining your footballing philosophy into the minds of your players."

I've picked out the bolded parts.  Training does not seem to be some stand alone module any more.  There are preset schedules based on our chosen tactical style of play.  They're directly linked.  imo that's something to be excited about.  ok the proof will be in the eating (as always) but if these presets are specifically designed to help train our players to "ingrain our footballing philosophy", we'll actually be able to have a cohesive plan across our chosen club.  No more awkward "hmm, what does General Training - Tactical do again?  Right, I'll set pre-season to Fitness training.  Erm and I want to play tiki taka, which Match Prep should I choose?  Screw it, I'll just set Balanced training".

That's a game changer.

Spot on, I'm really excited about this, the new tactical interface, and the interaction between them. No doubt I'll mess it up and want to throw my laptop out the window for the first months, and I'm sure it's going to be far from perfect under the hood, but this has the potential to be amazing.

 

2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Keep an eye on the FM Show in the coming days and weeks for more info on some of the questions here :)

Not to sound funny, but no. I'm not chasing around everywhere for the pleasure of having something sold to me. You've posted things here, people have asked questions here, so they should be answered here.

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I'm very pleased that the training module has been reworked because, for me, it was probably the weakest part of the game but I still have some interrogations about it:

- In the FM show, they say that there will be a weekly report on our players training performances but will our assistants tell us if our players gave their best (motivation, determination) or did they perform well ? Sometimes you give all you have but still perform like crap ! Will we have informations on the commitment of our players and/or on their forms ?

- Will there be a relation between training and matchday, especially concerning form ? We should be able to know which player performs well during the week, who is "on fire" and who is full of doubts ! We should have an indication on who's going to perform well on matchday. In relation to my first interrogation, I would like to be able to pick a young player in my first team because he worked hard to encourage him but I also would like to pick him simply because he's in great form and outperformed his older teamate during the week !

Really hope that these little things could be in the game...

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5 ore fa, kingking ha scritto:

At the end of the day. I support any change to the Tactics, Training and ME/AI etc that creates more depth and layers. i support any change that creates more depth.

But how much is too much?

I'm still waiting for a counter-argument to my "pick Attacking/Defensive training, the coaches take care of it according to YOUR active tactic" assertion, besides the "but realism!!!!!" mantra, which is kinda ironic in a game where you can easily lead an amateur side to EPL and Champions League glory within 10 years, instead of realistically floundering around the bottom rungs of the football pyramid.

Do we REALLY need 3 separate categories for Attacking Training? How much does it actually affect the training?

I can't help but feel we're spilitting hairs (and training schedules) assuming it's gonna have a much bigger impact than it actually has. If so, it'll be almost a moot point... I'll delegate, my AssMan will likely mess it up a bit but the AI's long-standing shortcomings will allow most players to win games and silverware a few years into the savegame no matter what.

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8 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But how much is too much?

I'm still waiting for a counter-argument to my "pick Attacking/Defensive training, the coaches take care of it according to YOUR active tactic" assertion, besides the "but realism!!!!!" mantra, which is kinda ironic in a game where you can easily lead an amateur side to EPL and Champions League glory within 10 years, instead of realistically floundering around the bottom rungs of the football pyramid.

Do we REALLY need 3 separate categories for Attacking Training? How much does it actually affect the training?

I can't help but feel we're spilitting hairs (and training schedules) assuming it's gonna have a much bigger impact than it actually has. If so, it'll be almost a moot point... I'll delegate, my AssMan will likely mess it up a bit but the AI's long-standing shortcomings will allow most players to win games and silverware a few years into the savegame no matter what.

The reason no one is offering a counter argument  is because you've gone with speculation, decided it's fact and stuck with it. 

If you don't like it that's your prerogative, but SI are delivering something that many people asked for, with options for those who want to get don't want to get into it as much and frankly, ou haven't even experienced it to even know if you hate or like it yet. 

 

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5 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But how much is too much?

I'm still waiting for a counter-argument to my "pick Attacking/Defensive training, the coaches take care of it according to YOUR active tactic" assertion, besides the "but realism!!!!!" mantra, which is kinda ironic in a game where you can easily lead an amateur side to EPL and Champions League glory within 10 years, instead of realistically floundering around the bottom rungs of the football pyramid.

Do we REALLY need 3 separate categories for Attacking Training? How much does it actually affect the training?

I can't help but feel we're spilitting hairs (and training schedules) assuming it's gonna have a much bigger impact than it actually has. If so, it'll be almost a moot point... I'll delegate, my AssMan will likely mess it up a bit but the AI's long-standing shortcomings will allow most players to win games and silverware a few years into the savegame no matter what.

Different people have different playstyles. As long as there's an automation alternative for people who do not want to dive in depth into training or player dynamics, I don't see how it takes anything from the game adding additional depth for people who enjoy it.

I for one am among the latter, I like to play slow and meticulous, so the announced changes to training and tactics got me really excited about FM19.

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6 hours ago, RBKalle said:

But how much is too much?

 I'm still waiting for a counter-argument to my "pick Attacking/Defensive training, the coaches take care of it according to YOUR active tactic" assertion, besides the "but realism!!!!!" mantra, which is kinda ironic in a game where you can easily lead an amateur side to EPL and Champions League glory within 10 years, instead of realistically floundering around the bottom rungs of the football pyramid.

 Do we REALLY need 3 separate categories for Attacking Training? How much does it actually affect the training?

 I can't help but feel we're spilitting hairs (and training schedules) assuming it's gonna have a much bigger impact than it actually has. If so, it'll be almost a moot point... I'll delegate, my AssMan will likely mess it up a bit but the AI's long-standing shortcomings will allow most players to win games and silverware a few years into the savegame no matter what.

FM19 should still allow you to add the general training options such as attack, defend or tactic and allow the coach to sort it out for you according to your active tactic 

I want Depth/Realism over Simplicity/Not Tedious

, i love the new changes

Mate in FM19 we should be able to have both.. Depth and Simplicity for the training system

Depth - (3 Training sessions per day + 10 groups of training session to choose from + managing your own training system for the week)

Simplicity/Not Tedious - (Add general training sessions of attack and defence + allow coaches to sort it for you based on your active tactic)

Edited by kingking

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I get it, and I'm glad FM responded to peoples' requests, but I really do hope the possibility of partially automating by populating certain things in relation to your set tactics works well. Personally I'm much stronger with tactics than training, as I should be - I'm the manager not a coach - but I also don't want to feel obligated to micromanage something that could be unclear and tedious for fear of being at a disadvantage.

I truly hope it's explained what aspects affect short term and what is for the long term. The earlier question was ignored, but do we have any idea what any of this does relative to pre-match preparation vs attribute strengthening? If I focus training on "aerial defense" will my team somehow become better at defending corners in the subsequent game because they became more familiar with my planned corner tactic (and if so, how does that change when the corner roles change with each lineup), or does every player just crawl slightly closer to a 0.1 attribute bump for heading/jumping/defending? If it's the latter, who cares what you do from 1 to 3 PM on Saturday the 4th? If it's the former, how is that measured or depicted beyond just looking at general tactical familiarity and team cohesion measurements?

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12 minutes ago, Weston said:

but I also don't want to feel obligated to micromanage something that could be unclear and tedious for fear of being at a disadvantage.

Putting likelihood due to AI limitations aside, then what would be the point for someone managing training himself if there's no advantage over automating it?

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4 ore fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

The reason no one is offering a counter argument  is because you've gone with speculation, decided it's fact and stuck with it. 

It's not a speculation...

Was General Training already available in FM18 (and earlier versions): yes. And it's a FACT

So my questions are:

1) Was it enough? (with the new sub-categories being handled 'behind the scenes' according to tactics and/or staff preference)
2) Is further fragmentation really worth it?

IMO the answer is yes to #1 and thus no to #2. You may disagree, but what's your reasoning behind it? Besides "it's a manager's job" (debatable) and "training is a big part of football" (true, but see point #1).

Some of you seem to like more depth, but IMO it's shallow depth. Think about it: how much of a difference will it make? One routine is 1/3 of 1/3 of the general training, which is already 1/2 of the whole training time.
Training time and EFFECT is split among: Team and Individual training, Team is further divided in General, Match Prep and Team Briefing, General has 3 daily routines.

What's the % of that?

On paper it's all nice and cool and realistic, but I can't shake the feeling it's a tad hollow and bloated at the same time. Kinda like D&D weapon specializations... Is there so much difference between Short, Long swords or bows? And here, compared to FM, it's as if they've added a distinction between arrows made with different materials...

Edited by RBKalle

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6 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

 

On paper it's all nice and cool and realistic, but I can't shake the feeling it's a tad hollow and bloated at the same time. Kinda like D&D weapon specializations... Is there so much difference between Short, Long swords or bows? And here, compared to FM, it's as if they've added a distinction between arrows made with different materials...

You are speculating, your entire argument is based on assumptions you've made on the blog compared with your experiences of playing with Training in an older version.

Maybe you don't really interact with training so you don't expect to gain anything from this feature, but it seems your are making up your mind before you've used it yet.

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25 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Some of you seem to like more depth, but IMO it's shallow depth. Think about it: how much of a difference will it make? One routine is 1/3 of 1/3 of the general training, which is already 1/2 of the whole training time.

Again, sir, different playstyles. One of the things I personally like about FM is that it's a game of small edges, like any self-respecting simulation game should be. There are few things you can do in this game that offer you sweeping advantages, and I would argue that the ones that do are broken or outright exploits.

By the looks of it you will still have the option to play at the scope you were used to before, so the changes don't take anything from your game, but the increased depth adds a great deal to my game. I cannot tell you how excited I am about these changes.

To an extent I think I understand your concern, it's less about the feature itself and more about the game moving to a direction you don't like. I'm a long time gamer and I too have seen plenty of my favorite titles doing just that. FM-wise I myself was concerned the game was going to go the opposite way and lose depth back when SI started looking into mobile and multiplayer with FMT and FM Live.
But with all their shortcomings, I think we can trust SI to tread the fine line between depth and tediousness.

Edited by SD

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6 hours ago, Lucas said:

You are speculating, your entire argument is based on assumptions you've made on the blog compared with your experiences of playing with Training in an older version.

Maybe you don't really interact with training so you don't expect to gain anything from this feature, but it seems your are making up your mind before you've used it yet.

This. Hence asking questions based on a scenario he's made up in his own head. 

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On 27/09/2018 at 13:46, Neil Brock said:

Your squad now trains in units that are determined by playing position. Clicking on the Units tab not only shows you your team’s current units, but also allows you to drag and drop players between units. You can ask any of your players to train in a new position and role from this screen and bring reserve or youth team players into first-team training by using the dropdown menu in the top-right corner of the screen.

Each training session has a different impact on each unit. For example, selecting a Chance Creation session sees your Offensive Unit attempt to create chances against your Defensive Unit, who in turn  are trying to prevent them from doing so. The effect of the session on each unit’s attributes, condition, injury risk and sharpness will also be different.

I really like the idea, it's realistic, However I always had one question whenever there was  a split between attacking and defensive units in training. If someone plays with wingbacks (eg. Conte's 3-4-3), for the wingbacks creating chances are as important as preventing them. So would you put them in the attacking or defensive unit? Or maybe rotating them between the units?. 

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I'm genuinely amazed that there has been criticism of the revised training module.

The existing module is way too blunt to develop a player's individual attributes. When you monitor attribute development of young players, they rise in what appears to be a completely random fashion, even if an individual focus has been applied. I've been crying out for closer links between training and specific attribute development.

Historically, I've also been loathed to move away from 'Balanced' team training, as switching to 'Attacking' means every single squad member, including defenders, is forced to work on a part of their game that isn't relevant to their role in my system.

And consider this of the existing training module; what does 'Attacking' even mean? How are they attacking? Where? Under what circumstances? If the TC now has specific styles at its core, training must have the capacity to embed this style in your squad.

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1 hour ago, rdbayly said:

Historically, I've also been loathed to move away from 'Balanced' team training, as switching to 'Attacking' means every single squad member, including defenders, is forced to work on a part of their game that isn't relevant to their role in my system.

Just to pick up on this point a little, whilst this is true to an extent it should be noted that such training is weighted depending on a player's position.  So a striker would see more benefit in developing attacking related attributes than a defender would if you set training to "Attacking" for example.

But anyway, totally agree that any new splitting out of players to help focus their attribute development will be warmly welcomed.

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14 ore fa, Lucas ha scritto:

You are speculating, your entire argument is based on assumptions you've made on the blog compared with your experiences of playing with Training in an older version.

Maybe you don't really interact with training so you don't expect to gain anything from this feature, but it seems your are making up your mind before you've used it yet.

I love how you all have decided I'm "speculating", when I'm merely stating facts:

Fact #1: General Training was already in previous games
Fact #2: General Training is now apparently split into 3 sessions with many more routines compared to the 8 choices (7+rest IIRC) available until FM18 thus
Fact #3: Every day will have up to 3 choices (out of N options) for GT compared to the current 1
(out of 8)

Conclusion #1: General Training in FM19 will require much more micromanagement

Fact #4: Training time is distributed among GT, IT and Team Briefing

QUESTION #1: With the expanded GT options, how diluted will those end up being?

That's the only time I ventured into assumption territory, implying that the whole "sessions" thing will indeed account for very little in the grand scheme of things. But anything else is factual, whether you think I'm being too negative or biased about the new training module.
 

To most of you it's a great addition for realism. To me it's another step toward fun-crippling micromanagement with little reward to so much work (kinda like Team Briefing and other stuff that after a while become muscle-memory material, or get completely ignored)

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33 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I love how you all have decided I'm "speculating", when I'm merely stating facts:

Fact #1: General Training was already in previous games
Fact #2: General Training is now apparently split into 3 sessions with many more routines compared to the 8 choices (7+rest IIRC) available until FM18 thus
Fact #3: Every day will have up to 3 choices (out of N options) for GT compared to the current 1
(out of 8)

Conclusion #1: General Training in FM19 will require much more micromanagement

Fact #4: Training time is distributed among GT, IT and Team Briefing

QUESTION #1: With the expanded GT options, how diluted will those end up being?

That's the only time I ventured into assumption territory, implying that the whole "sessions" thing will indeed account for very little in the grand scheme of things. But anything else is factual, whether you think I'm being too negative or biased about the new training module.
 

To most of you it's a great addition for realism. To me it's another step toward fun-crippling micromanagement with little reward to so much work (kinda like Team Briefing and other stuff that after a while become muscle-memory material, or get completely ignored)

Not sure why you’re getting hooked up on a string label that’s be used in FM to describe various Training implementations over many years. 

Also not sure how mental maths = diluted schedules either, the screenshots don’t tell us how it plays out yet, or anything about progression.

And I’m sure you can leave training to the assistant. Micro manage if you want to, not that you have to. 

None of what your saying are facts, they are speculating based on conjecture from looking at the screenshots. Why not wait and see how it plays before judging it.

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3 ore fa, Lucas ha scritto:

Not sure why you’re getting hooked up on a string label that’s be used in FM to describe various Training implementations over many years. 

Also not sure how mental maths = diluted schedules either, the screenshots don’t tell us how it plays out yet, or anything about progression.

And I’m sure you can leave training to the assistant. Micro manage if you want to, not that you have to. 

None of what your saying are facts, they are speculating based on conjecture from looking at the screenshots. Why not wait and see how it plays before judging it.

Your definition of "fact" and "speculation" may be different from mine then, because the only point I can accept being debatable/speculative is the time distribution.

Unless GT in FM2019 will be weighed MORE than it was in FM2018, the 3 daily schedules will have 1/3 of the impact on development the only daily choice had in 2018. As long as SI don't say "reworked players development model" I'm safely assuming GT will account fot the same % it did last year.

I know I can delegate, that's not the point! The point is: was it really needed to give even more "realism" to a game with glaring flaws in much more basic and impactful areas?

Fine, I'll wait and see, but I do feel the new training schedules are a rather unnecessary complication. If anything about training needed more customization, it was INDIVIDUAL training, which ATM is way too rigid.

FWIW, group tutoring and units training are solid additions.

Edited by RBKalle

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27 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Your definition of "fact" and "speculation" may be different from mine then, because the only point I can accept being debatable/speculative is the time distribution.

Do you believe in fake news?

 

28 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I know I can delegate, that's not the point! The point is: was it really needed to give even more "realism" to a game with glaring flaws in much more basic and impactful areas?

Different coders work on different things. I see this line mentioned so often or inferred to, but it’s really not about prioritisation. All you’ve been told are headline features. The most important ones. Not everything. More “basic” and “impactful” areas are always being improved. 

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3 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Your definition of "fact" and "speculation" may be different from mine then, because the only point I can accept being debatable/speculative is the time distribution.

Unless GT in FM2019 will be weighed MORE than it was in FM2018, the 3 daily schedules will have 1/3 of the impact on development the only daily choice had in 2018. As long as SI don't say "reworked players development model" I'm safely assuming GT will account fot the same % it did last year.

I know I can delegate, that's not the point! The point is: was it really needed to give even more "realism" to a game with glaring flaws in much more basic and impactful areas?

Fine, I'll wait and see, but I do feel the new training schedules are a rather unnecessary complication. If anything about training needed more customization, it was INDIVIDUAL training, which ATM is way too rigid.

FWIW, group tutoring and units training are solid additions.

I disagree with your negative view against making the training system more realistic and in-depth.

I praise s.i for going in-depth in the training system.

you can make it less complicated by letting your assistant manager deal with training, or you can go in depth by doing it yourself... Everyone wins. I don't see the problem, I only see you nit-picking 

Edited by kingking

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