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tommy0306

Trying to work-out my tactical issues (4411)

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Hi there, as the title suggests I'm having tactical issues in game which seem to constantly plague any save I have started on this years version and the previous, invariably leading to a much lower play-time compared to previous iterations of the game. Any suggestions or input as to how I can change my current set-up or my own thinking into just approaching it would be very much appreciated! Thanks 

P.S. I will try to keep this as short as I can, but I think maybe giving a detailed background might help me remember what the original plan was as I started the save a while back, and through all the quitting and coming back it's hard to remember what that plan was. 

So. I'm managing Portsmouth currently three seasons in. The first season in League One we gained promotion via the play-offs, which ended up being disappointing considering for much of the campaign we were leading the pack, but results against defensive teams (not surprising) led to frustration and a stuttering end. However, we did get promoted which on one hand let the save continue but also probably led me to ignore the issues. My thinking here was that I'm trying to manage expectations, we were expected to get promoted and so I shouldn't be too disheartened by the fact we achieved our goal, but just watching games where I know something isn't right and can see problems but unsure how to approach them gets the better of me a lot of the time, and it has got to the stage where one loss stops me from wanting to play for months.

Second season, the first in the Championship, we were expected to finish in the relegation zones but ending up again sneaking into the last play-off spot making it to the final but losing out, which is fair my team are nowhere near ready for the Premier League anyhow. I can accept that we over-achieved a bit in the season, I would of been happy with a mid-table to top half finish in all honesty. My biggest problem with this season was that the results never felt consistent, we scored a lot of goals from corners or free-kicks and generally our play was either great or scrappy, depending how the other team was set-up. We won 23, drew 9 and lost 14 with a GD of just 10, we scored a fair few but shipped a lot as well because of the set-up which I think I've addressed, I hope at least. 

Finally onto my current season, only just started. I switched from playing Control to Standard because I knew we were pressing too much. This was an incorrect decision I feel as the mentality switch affected us going forward I believe I should have just taken off Push Higher Up and Close Down More as my slowish CB's couldn't take the extra load. I have sinced switch this and we've only conceded 1 goal in three games and just in general look a lot better at the back.

The biggest problems I'm having are any matches against more defensive teams because of the link-up and support between midfield and attack, I think.

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Okay so the original plan is as follows. I really liked the 4231 Pochettino installed at Spurs with Son, Alli and Eriksen behind Kane and with Dembele and Dier/Wanyama holding behind which freed up the full-backs and I wanted to implement this with Portsmouth as they are the team I support and for the most part the players suited this formation and most of the roles. After reading @Cleon's thread about 4231 and the bit about control vs standard, I decided to give it a go using the 4411 formation, one that I have never been successful with also I think it represents a real life 4231 a lot maybe the CM's (and AM)  could drop further down but I didn't think it would be a problem. 

I want to play aggressive football like Spurs, without relying on possession as much but I understand that my closing down more I would naturally more likely be in control of the game. I believe that the pairing of DLP(S) and CM(D) is a solid base to this style, so that they can recycle possession back into the more creative front four, and full backs. My concern here though is that because of this I have no deep movement,compared to @Cleon and this is obviously something he mentions a lot when opening up defensive sides. But I thought it would come from the full backs, this is where I'm struggling to understand how I should of approached this part of the formation. This also ties into my role's of AM(A) and DLF(A) at times in games its clear neither are an option to pass too both on the last line of defence, which is obviously coming from their role/duty allocation. I tried switching to an AM(S) but i felt the midfield three just passed it between them not going anywhere because a DLP(S) isn't bursting forward but I'm stubborn to change it because I thought it was a good base as mentioned before.

I'm wary of maybe dragging on and just confusing everyone reading and myself! So this is the crux of the issues, in short against defensive teams we turn into a crossing bonanza as obviously the only player available is the W(S) whose job it is to cross but that isn't varied enough to open up a tight defence.

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First, I don't know anything about your players, so I can hardly tell you if a 4411 or a 4231 suits your team at all. Now, if you wanna play with a 4141 anyway (as your screenshot suggests), then some changes need to be made to your tactic. As for mentality, it depends on a specific match (opponent), so I'll just give you some basic idea of roles, duties and some of the TIs:

DLFa

APMs

IWs    BWMd    DLPs    Wa

FBa      DCc     DCd     WBd

GK

Begin with Standard / Structured and watch carefully to see how it works.

Use the following TIs initially - shorter passing, play narrower, roam from positions (leave the rest on default for now)

GK - roll it out to fullbacks

both DCs - fewer risky passes

FBa, WBd & BWMd - fewer risky passes

DLPs - more direct passing

DLFa - move into channels, close down more

APMs & Wa- close down more

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, I don't know anything about your players, so I can hardly tell you if a 4411 or a 4231 suits your team at all. Now, if you wanna play with a 4141 anyway (as your screenshot suggests), then some changes need to be made to your tactic. As for mentality, it depends on a specific match (opponent), so I'll just give you some basic idea of roles, duties and some of the TIs:

DLFa

APMs

IWs    BWMd    DLPs    Wa

FBa      DCc     DCd     WBd

GK

Begin with Standard / Structured and watch carefully to see how it works.

Use the following TIs initially - shorter passing, play narrower, roam from positions (leave the rest on default for now)

GK - roll it out to fullbacks

both DCs - fewer risky passes

FBa, WBd & BWMd - fewer risky passes

DLPs - more direct passing

DLFa - move into channels, close down more

APMs & Wa- close down more

Thanks for replying. However, I didn't really ask whether people thought my team was suited for a 4-4-1-1 or whether I was using the correct mentality. I was asking for help re specific issues I was having with the link and support between midfield and attack. I appreciate the effort but I'm not going to blindly copy someone elses set-up and instructions, it doesn't help me learn anything.

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My initial reactions:

1. The right flank looks a little bit awkward. Seems to me like the fullback on attack duty and the winger on support duty will both try to occupy the same zone. I would try to separate them a little bit (vertically or horizontally or both).

2. As you pointed out, the combination of roles and duties you have on your central midfielders and central attackers will probably lead to no players occupying the most important zone of the pitch going forward - the area between the oppositions defense and midfield. Having one of your wingers tucking in, and/or the AMC taking on this zone will probably help a lot in linking up the midfield and attack. If one of the wingers move in, the fullback on that flank can still provide the width. If the AM drops a little deeper, a winger can move up and provide runs behind the defense.

The problems you had with the three central players only passing amongst themselves might have been because the wingers were too far away from them, so maybe reduce the width, increase the passing length, or something similar.

Hope that gets you thinking. :)

 

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You have a lot of early runners using DLf-A, AM-A, and IW-A who will play on shoulder and try to run behind opponents often. Only the DLF-A is hardcoded to play risky passes and then you've told your team to Retain Possession so will try passes into space less often.

I would prefer the forward to be support to link and create for the runners before getting into the box rather than trying to run in behind early himself. I'd get rid of that retain possession, maybe going further in opposite direction by telling the DLP to play more risky passes and/or more direct.

If you want to play a possession style I'd look at those roles and especially duties so players vary there play and focus less on running in behind.

 

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1. Your 'passing between players in Midfield'  when AMS might be as a result of an isolated be striker. Maybe a more supportive role (s) can make him a closer & easier option.

2. Right wing can be more aggressive with the winger and more conservative with the FB to encourage earlier penetration to the box, over there.

3. I get the 'strong base thing' with CMD-DLP(s). Maybe give one the option of Choosing to either move or stay with 'CMS- BWMs' and then keep one on proper holding 'DLPd-BWMd-CMD'. The fear is that you've left too much gap between Defence and central area so as not to be caught by counter. A gap that a DM strata would have presumably covered. But your use of the WM only reinforces your pressing & defence and makes you 'worry less' about that. So it's  'hold-link-shuttle' you can prioritize in your 'CM-Am-CM' Midfield.

Bad English but hope it helps.

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9 hours ago, tommy0306 said:

Thanks for replying. However, I didn't really ask whether people thought my team was suited for a 4-4-1-1 or whether I was using the correct mentality. I was asking for help re specific issues I was having with the link and support between midfield and attack. I appreciate the effort but I'm not going to blindly copy someone elses set-up and instructions, it doesn't help me learn anything.

I did not say that you should copy my (or anyone's) tactic, I just wanted to help based on the information you provided by giving a suggestion that might (or might not) be useful to you. Because the most important thing for any tactical system is good balance. And of course, you can achieve such balance in different ways. My suggestion is just one of those ways, but certainly not the only.

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On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 08:08, FabianJonsson said:

The right flank looks a little bit awkward

 

On ‎28‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 08:55, summatsupeer said:

I'd get rid of that retain possession

Hi @tommy0306.  I've picked up on two of the bits off advice you've had as I think both are helpful.  For a start wingers stay wide and by nature want to cross the ball a lot.  Its not a role I think of when I want possession.  So maybe keep the role, lose the possession TI, and then think if you really want the right fullback over the top of that winger.  I don't think he'll underlap or overlap with that role and duty and winger ahead.

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Not sure about your flanks - You have an IWB and a IW on the left cutting in - where's the width coming from on that side? Then you have two 'wide' players on the other side. 

I'd pair the IWB with a W or a WM, then pair the IW with a FB(A) or WB(S)?

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