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jefflackey

Player far outperforming his "rating?"

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Playing as Oxford, BET L1, and I have a player who is rated  2.5 stars as a striker, and potential the same.  I have other players rated higher, with better attributes. Yet for some reason, this player leads the league in scoring, seems to always outperform other strikers, i.e. he just seems to perform like a 5 star striker. Yet he is considered a "back up player, near his prime."

I look at his attributes and none would indicate that he would be such a scoring machine. Is this just a quirk? Has he just been "Lucky"?" Or can a player be that underrated by his value and ratings?

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It's possible he has some hidden attributes that make  him more effective, or even that your system just plays perfectly to his strengths, making him seem better than he actually is. It's also possible he's just on a good run and it'll end soon. How long's he kept this form up for so far? Either way, I always pick my team based on how they actually perform, so I'd stick with him ahead of your other strikers if he's doing that well.

I had a similar player on a previous version of FM, who I consider my all-time best player on any version of the game. My scouts and coaches would always rate him as back-up at best, his attributes were decent but nothing special, but he scored very highly in the attributes I needed for the system I had set up, and he was better than anyone else I could have bought. Even at the age of 36, he was still hitting 30+ a season. Everytime I left a club, the manager who took over would drop him to the reserves and put him up for sale, and I'd just buy him again for my new team. Just before he retired, I checked his PA and it was only 146, which I guess is about mid-table Premier league level at best. But I could've put Ronaldo in his position and he wouldn't have scored as many as this guy did.

 

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Remember that the rating is just another person's opinion and whilst it is normally a reasonable guide, it can and will be wrong sometimes.  As long as a player is doing a job for you, you need not worry about his rating in the slightest.

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If your tactic creates the chances, law of averages says he will finish some of them off.  Keep creating and he will keep scoring - simple as that. One of those players although not world-beating in any real sense, always seems to be in the right place and the right time - enjoy him.

 

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Star rating tells very few things about the player's quality.

There's the stats, the hidden stats, the role suitability, where you place him in your tactics... pay more attention at the pros and cons.

Edited by llDracoll

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As other posters noted before, it could've been that he's just perfect enough for your system, him enjoying a good run or he's got excellent combination of hidden attributes. Or all of the above.

Sometimes they just escapes any apparently sensible reasoning though. But anyway, always love players that falls within this category :cool:

I've had quite a few all across the FM editions.

Off the top of my head for non-newgen ones it was Stanislav Prokofiev when I used to managed Tosno in Russia second division, on FM 16 (which was the game's recent edition that I've played the most basically). Already approaching his 30s, attributes-wise he's almost the epitome of mediocrity without any particular positives of note, plus possessing a rather weird Preferred Moves combination in Comes Deep to Get Ball and Moves into Channel when on paper it should've been working terribly if you're looking at his attribute spread. Initially a backup to bin come promotion, yet he turned to be our fans' favorite who consistently banging goals well into his mid thirties, including European games against much stronger sides such as Atletico and the likes. Signed him as my backroom staff later on out of sentimentality, but he's an utterly rubbish coach tbf.

Also I've had these create-a-club experiments of creating the most efficient players with low CA & PA for middling to low quality teams. The best one was a striker whose best attribute was Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Dribbling, Natural Fitness, Acceleration and Pace while being abysmal in his other technical and mental attributes... as in 1 and 2 points level of abysmal, and that naturally includes his Finishing :D Using a cowardly defensive 4-1-4-1 tactic with the boys pretty much told to pass the ball ASAP to him. Ends up being club legend, breaking records for fun with unbelievable goal scoring prowess while being a one trick pony of blitzing to the keepers' side then casually slots the ball low behind them. By the time our club finally reached the peak of world recognition he was rated 2 stars by the backroom staff, with a good 6-7 seasons left in him still being our superstar player. He never got nominated for Ballon d'Or nor World Player of the Year though, in spite of him easily outscoring other world class forwards by 20 goals margin on average. Surely they took a peek to his PA and decided that he's not good enough :lol:

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for those with a long memory Steve Bull at Wolves springs to mind. Great at club level but not anywhere else or in comparison with the star quality players around at the time. Perhaps like him if you have a side built around the player then the team plays to the qualities of  that player. Scoring goals & winning matches = high morale and more of the same.

Many real life managers have found that spending a lot of money can often not be the answer

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PS Michael Owen was all pace, what happened when his pace went in relation to his goals scored?

Look at Alexi Sanchez since he has been at Man Utd

Why are some players successful at some clubs yet very poor at others

How come Messi is fantastic for Barca yet poor at Argentina?

 

 

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It remembers me playing as PSG coach and I noted there was a guy scoring more than Cavani with an absurd number of goals and leading. Emiliano Sala. 2 or 2,5 star. I bought him on January Window. I f***ed the opp team? Yes and I got an goal machine. A pity his good run was short and I had to sell them in the beginning of the following season

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The star ratings are just a formula of CA (which to put it short is the game's estimation of the players attributes in a 1 to 200 scale), which then is run through a few modifiers to represent the "opinion" of your staff.

Most likely this is a player with 2 or 3 high attributes that happen to make all the difference, and don't cost that much CA. I'm betting pace, pace makes a gigantic difference in the lower leagues. Hell I've even had a pacey striker with lower CA than my world class superstars, tear apart the Bundesliga (a Mexican regen named Fabian Lopez in my FM17 HSV career).

Basically you're free to ignore the ratings, if the guy performs then he performs, and you can gain a little advantage over the AI by focusing on players like this, since they'll be a bit unaware of how good the guy really is in practice and constantly underrate him.

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to be clear its a rating in comparison to other players within your own squad and not against the 200 CA maximum or ALL players in general. 

for example you have a 5 star player as he is the best in your squad, bring in a much much better player and he and others in your squad would likely get the star rating reassessed and reduced

 

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It's very common, especially the lower down the leagues you go. On the one hand the staff are less expert at assessing players; on the other hand, the differential between low-ability players is narrower. They do tend to plateau at some point, so don't plan your next 2 seasons around him.

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4 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

I wonder if form / playing time have an impact also?

I think this usually RAISES the star ratings, if a player is playing well, I've seen my staff definitely "like" a player more after a good run.

So this guy probably has even less CA than the ratings would indicate.

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Yes but likewise the assessment of all players is being reassessed in comparison for the star ratings

so in response to the OP post we have say an average skilled striker in form scoring for fun with a Messi attributed player out of form

At the high level the average player in ability level is rated lower in rating stars than the highlight attributed player

In FM and real life the best players don't always play the best. Additionally there is also the Attribute rating of consistency

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The thing is, I cheat by peeking at CA/PA. It's very common for my lowest CA striker to be the one who bags most of the goals, far outstripping players with higher CA and PA. Naturally, his form and playing time will exceed the other options, but his CA might not increase much as his PA is very low.

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you are naughty :)

I suppose another thing to think about is that a high CA / PA might not mean much if the key attributes to the player, his position and role are low

e.g. you could have a 6 yard box striker who can not move around much but has high attribute settings for positioning, anticipation and finishing but really low marks elsewhere and vice versa for the high CA player

However i will place close attention and do some sneaky peaking in FM19 to see if there is a pattern

That said i think its also  one of your coaches who gives the star ratings. maybe if his assessment is poor or if  he judges on different attributes that the FM uses to judge his goal scoring % etc then this cold also explain it perhaps?

 

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Great and fun discussion, thanks!

In my younger years I managed a bit (nowhere near high levels of course) and I often had a play that didn't look all that athletic, wasn't extremely fast or quick, in practice was very average in shooting skills, etc. yet put him in a match and he was magic. Always seem to be in the right place at the right time, always seemed to shoot (sometimes a blind shot) in just that spot the keeper couldn't reach, and mid season I'd be shocked at how he was leading the league in scoring. It helped that the rest of the team recognized his "magic" and loved feeding him the ball.

With the player in the OP I was thinking maybe it was his anticipation or off the ball, but none of his stats stand out.

Honestly, though, I think it's great! I love that players have a dimension that can only be seen on the field and can't be pigeonholed by "stars."

BTW - I didn't realize (or forgot, been playing FM since it was CM!) that the star ratings of my players are relative  to my other players on my team. Is that confirmed true?

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1 hour ago, jefflackey said:

BTW - I didn't realize (or forgot, been playing FM since it was CM!) that the star ratings of my players are relative  to my other players on my team. Is that confirmed true?

Yeah, always been like that.

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I had a similar situation when managing SKA in Russia, bought a player by the name of Dennis Van Vaerenbergh for under £100K very strong in the air but nothing much other than that. Scored roughly 50 goals over two seasons before being sold onto Galatasary for £7.5m. Key is to play to the strengths which is sounds like you are doing in your game

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I’ve had one or two down the years who overperform their attributes/rating. What’s a bit unrealistic is that bigger clubs rarely come in for them even if they’re averaging 7-7.5s

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Star ratings are highly contextual and often wildly wrong. They should be taken with two handfuls of salt.

Players with mediocre ratings can often "overperform" if the system they're playing in is particularly well-suited to their strengths. Sometimes having high Work Rate, good hidden stats, and physical stats more than compensates for a dearth of technical ability. As they do in real life.

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There are a few player roles where you can get some remarkably good performances from a player with 10 or less 'good' attributes. Even in top leagues.

I'm thinking of particularly of Wingers (Crossing, Dribbling, Determination, Work Rate, Teamwork, Pace, Acceleration, Stamina), but you could also include Centre-Backs (Heading, Marking, Tackling, Concentration, Determination, Acceleration, Jumping, Pace, Strength, Stamina) and maybe a Poacher (Finishing, First Touch, Composure, Determination, Off The Ball, Acceleration, Pace, Stamina).

 

You do need your tactics set up to suit the players, mind you.

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CA counts for very little in my opinion...tactic first then find the right player for the role.... I. E. If i have a bwm and primarily want him to break up play ill look at work rate, determination, bravery, aggression, stamina, tackling.... I could get a guy that has 18 for all those but 5s for his technicals like touch, dribble, pass, technique, crossing, corner. His CA (or stars) are lower than a guy who has 12/13 across the board... But i know who will play the role better. 

Likewise you might be playing a crossing game and found a 6'5 monster who has strength and heading but not alot else and he will feed off the crosses...or perhaps you are playing direct and into space and u have a speed merchant? Or maybe you do have an all rounder who isnt great at anything but is good enough to do the job being asked. 

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Don't forget Consistency...

A player with low consistency will rarely perform at his best, meaning a more reliable, albeit "worse" on paper, player can easily outperform him because the better guy's attributes won't be put to full use in the many games he'll phone in, while the inferior player will perform much closer to his actual, displayed, skills.

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I had James Wilson from United for 900kin a Newcastle save, PA of about 140.  Was a panic buy when Gayle/Joselu did absolutely nothing for six months, my budget was 1.5m.

 

Played him in a 424 as a poacher due to his pace, finishing, and nothing much else. He consistently banged in 30-40 goals a season  over a five year span before I gave up on the save. Never won any awards beyond POTM/Top Goalscorer, had an eventual value of around 50m, but God damn I love when relatively rubbish players work out wonders for you.

Edited by harrycarrie

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In my longest FM17 save I bought Marko Grujić 4 times in 10 years due to him being absolutely unstoppable in my tactical setup. He has decent stats all round but nothing spectacular, yet he fitted my tactics perfectly and would regularly (read: every game) destroy anyone he came up against. My staff would always rate him as average at best, never more than a squad player in his prime, no matter how godly he played. I always managed to buy him for peanuts as well since the AI never rated him... but with the right tactics he was immense. 

Edited by ..Valhalla..

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Is Pace/Acceleration still so important?!

I thought those days were over...

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On 07/10/2018 at 10:45, RBKalle said:

Is Pace/Acceleration still so important?!

I thought those days were over...

Yup. Many times on FM 18 I used the old trick of replacing players in key positions with overall weaker, but much faster equivalents. What once was an average season instantly turned into serial winning.

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27 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Yup. Many times on FM 18 I used the old trick of replacing players in key positions with overall weaker, but much faster equivalents. What once was an average season instantly turned into serial winning.

I've done similar, but with players with great mental attributes (Vision, Anticipation, Decisions) in the lower leagues, also with great effect. They may have been physically weak, but far smarter than the average opposition player.

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49 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

I've done similar, but with players with great mental attributes (Vision, Anticipation, Decisions) in the lower leagues, also with great effect. They may have been physically weak, but far smarter than the average opposition player.

Can't comment on FM18 (haven't played it enough), but until a few iterations ago, there was NO POINT in signing one of the aging Stars in their late 30s once their Acc/Pace was below 8, not even as a LLM.

Despite all the 18-20s in Mental Attributes and vastly superior Technical skills, their lack of mobility was a burden impossible to overcome and former top-EPL-level players got their ass handed to them by random lower-division schmucks with decent physical attributes.

For years, in FM world, Usain Bolt or even Oba Oba Martins would have been absolute worldclass regardless of their subpar footballing skills.

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19 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Can't comment on FM18 (haven't played it enough), but until a few iterations ago, there was NO POINT in signing one of the aging Stars in their late 30s once their Acc/Pace was below 8, not even as a LLM.

Despite all the 18-20s in Mental Attributes and vastly superior Technical skills, their lack of mobility was a burden impossible to overcome and former top-EPL-level players got their ass handed to them by random lower-division schmucks with decent physical attributes.

For years, in FM world, Usain Bolt or even Oba Oba Martins would have been absolute worldclass regardless of their subpar footballing skills.

I've done so since FM14 at least. Mobility wasn't an issue for me because the player would be superior mentally. Obviously though, I'm not going to have 10 slow players, but have had plenty of teams where a couple of slower players stood out, just because they were good Mentally speaking.

This wasn't lower leagues, but FM15, I had 3 players playing a key roles in the team at the top level, including the CL:

1966692207_Fiorentina-6-Oscar.thumb.png.82496ce20001116736c18b94faabcd4d.png1445221679_Fiorentina-8-Stambouli.thumb.png.9b7ba62441ba95cfb97726c59badb033.png233819110_Fiorentina-12-Jong-Woo.thumb.png.783597b1ec716a1072805aa3a9d02fec.png

 

Jong-Woo getting young player of the year.

 

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None of those is final-year-of-career kind of slow though...

Stambouli is close to that, but a CB in lower leagues can get away with that... I remember signing an aging Fabio Liverani (DM/CM who was never a pacey player) for a LL side, and he was too slow to cut it at a Division One level due to his lack of mobility.

Can't see a <8 striker faring much better unless he's a Koller-like tank either.

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28 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

None of those is final-year-of-career kind of slow though...

Stambouli is close to that, but a CB in lower leagues can get away with that... I remember signing an aging Fabio Liverani (DM/CM who was never a pacey player) for a LL side, and he was too slow to cut it at a Division One level due to his lack of mobility.

Can't see a <8 striker faring much better unless he's a Koller-like tank either.

He was a DM and you're clutching at straws. You need to use players in the way they're good at. Quite obviously an 8 at LL level is comparable to 10 at top level.

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Two of my best strikers in any version of FM were rated as being terrible but performed like world beaters in my team.

Both came in the same save. From memory it was FM15, and it was my long term save with Weston-Super-Mare.

First striker appeared in my youth setup when I was in League 2 and was rated as one of the weakest members of my intake. He was pretty dire in most areas but he was lightning fast, agile, had great finishing and composure. Sure he couldn't head the ball, pass the ball, tackle, cross, was weak as hell, had no determination and pretty much no other strengths, but none of that mattered. I built my attacking unit around him, other players draw defenders away and my midfielders ping a long ball over the top for him to run on to. Through my rise from League 2 to the Premiership he averaged nearly a goal a game and for the first couple of years in the Premiership he was still almost as effective. Unfortunately he suffered a couple of bad injuries that robbed him of his pace and just like that he was worthless. I think the highest he was ever rated was 2.5 stars, and that was when we were in league 2, and before he got injured badly he was rated at 1 star.

Second striker appeared in something like my 3rd or 4th year in the Premiership. He was almost the exact opposite of the previous guy. He was a lump, tall, strong, great in the air, would fight for every ball. Again the team got built around him, get the ball out wide and throw crosses at him. Time after time he would tear defences apart, almost every game he was the strongest player on the pitch, the biggest player on the pitch, and defenders couldn't cope with him. He broke into my first team at 18 and only dropped out when he was in his early 30s. His rating according to my coaches dropped to half a star when he was about 27. Even more impressively at about that time I got the England job and of course picked him. I think before I quit that job he made something like 40 appearances and bagged 30 goals, so a half star player scoring for fun at international level.

Star ratings are a useful guide but that's all they are, a guide.

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It's a bit chicken and egg, but I've also found connection with the fans plays a part. Club icons/legends, etc. can/will often out-perform other players with better stats/ratings.

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