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Leccy

Trying to build a tactic logically

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TLDR – if you’d rather just look at my roles and duties see posts 4 and 5

The game and the team

·         Bochum in Bundelsliga 2

·         Predicted 6/18

·         Expected top half finish

·         Playing FM Touch 17 so no tactical familiarity as I really struggle – also means I don’t have carellio/mezzala options

·         Given myself good experience to not make things any harder as I really struggle

Central Defenders

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·         Losilla is actually a DMC but  his attributes seem great for a DC so for the moment he’s in

·         Bastians seems good but he has low anticipation – i’m hoping his 17 pace can compensate

·         Fabian – Bravery and aggression too low, may not put in a challenge

·         Dawidowicz – Anticipation not great, doesn’t have the Acc to compensate. 3rd choice.

·         Baack – Only 17, Cnt, Acc and Strength too low for now

Formation conclusions

·         I don’t seem blessed in this area so a formation with 2 CB seems the way to go

Left backs - defensively

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·         Massively lacking here – Bastians the clear choice but remember he is my only pacey centre back!

·         The only other option is  Perthel but he is very average

·         Conclusion? I think I will look at the opposition right wing and strikers on a game by game basis to decide if I should weaken CB or LB area.

Left back - Attacking

image.thumb.png.c6ce5092b983ad68fd1467d69e547236.png

·         They both seem to have the physical ability to get up the pitch and the desire to get back but are their defensive mentals (previous screenshot) good enough? Instinct is Bastians yes, Perthel no – maybe only against weaker teams

Formation conclusions

·         I’m starting to see I don’t have the best defence, a formation with a DMC may well be needed

Right back - defensively

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·         Hoogland very good defensively, Acc not the best though

·         Celozzi doesn’t seem great defensively but a solid back up

Right back – attacking

image.thumb.png.2311ed0771e21f3a55f9153668ac0e88.png

·         Hoogland seems to have the Mentals and desire to get up and down the pitch, tough his Acc is only 11 so can he get back – when he gets there though his crossing is only 11

·         Cellozi – Exceptional stats! Given he is poor defensively can only play RB against weaker teams but I will consider him for a midfield position even though he can’t play there

Formation conclusions

·         Cellozi seems a waste at right back with those stats, Hoogland seems solid enough on the ball so capable of supporting an attack

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Edited by Leccy

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 Midfielders that will defend and tackle

image.thumb.png.b0ff8342f9e4b85d60764ac90192b208.png

·         Hoogland and Losilla are very good in this area but already play RB and CB

·         Canouse  -  Seems solid, anticipation slightly low as is Acc

·         Wydra – May need subbing a lot, only 11 Nat Fit. Fastest of the three

·         Janelt – Good anticipation, a tad slow

What can they do on the ball?

image.thumb.png.a8ffe7c9907ebdd2b549f473b9492013.png

·         None of them are playmakers but Canouse seems most comfortable on the ball

·         Janelt and Wydra may struggle under pressure, but I could ask them to keep things simple

Formation conclusions

·         Do I play Canouse in the DMC role, or do I want him further forward in central midfield making tackles and save the DMC spot for a playmaker

·         I think I need 2 players that will put in a tackle in centre mid which means a spot for either Janelt/Wydra as well – Am i being over cautious?

Midfielders that can be playmakers/makers risky passes

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·         I feel strong in this area, with Celozzi and Eisfield standing out – though both have poor balance

·         The Merkel, Stiepermann and Wurtz seem quite good other Decisions which lets them down – quite an important attribute for a playmaker

·         Stiepermann also has poor teamwork, though I don’t fully understand the impact of this attribute

Formation conclusions

·         They are very different players - Celozzi is naturally a right back and so would contribute defensively. Either DMC or CM

·         Eisfield is a AMC/L/R – would I play him behind the stiker(s) or on the wing?he has cuts inside from left wing PPM

·         Do I need 2 playmakers? Or could I assign one as a CM and just add risky passes

·         So far I don’t have any runners from midfield and I’ve potentially taken up 4 midfeld spots already – this means I either need to find one or play 2 up top

 

Edited by Leccy

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Midfielders OR Strikers that will get in the box

image.thumb.png.da755ba0e7f153f85e7c748054f13032.png

 

·         Maybe I’m being picky here and looking at attributes in isolation but I think i’m lacking in people who will get in the box and score – everyone has poor decisions

·         Merkel – low bravery determination and cant finish

·         Stiepermann – low acc, work rate bravery – will he bust a gut to get in?

·         Wurtz – maybe the best option but low anticipation

·         Eisfield – low determination and bravery – will he bust a gut to get in?

·         Stoger – won’t bust a gut and uncomposed/ can’t finish

Do I at least have some strikers that can be a goal threat?

image.thumb.png.b4a0d1807f6fa4ea14923c7f8b657f42.png

·         Not really! Only Wurtz and Quashner come close – this means they both have to play otherwise i’m not going to have any goal threats

Formation conclusions

·         We know i’m playing 4 at the back, that means either 442 (flat or diamond)  - but do I have the full backs to offer width?

·         OR 1 up front but Wurtz has to get forward as a second striker from midfield

·         But if I need both players to be in the box can I afford Quashner playing a deeper linking role up front?

image.thumb.png.636eeac09c092f2c30c90fd38486d607.png

·         The above is to see if they would be capable of playing on their own up top

·         Wurtz has the technique but not the physical presence

·         Quashner has the physical presence but lacks technique

Edited by Leccy

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Finally, what are my wide men like?

image.thumb.png.b961d487a6588122ade8eab0d3196b94.png

 

·         Merkel, Stiepperman, Eisfeld and Stoger ALL have cut inside PPM – this means I may struggle for width unless a FB can provide it – unlikely to work as wingers as they won’t cross if coming inside?

·         Wellandt and Mlapa don’t have the PPM but they can’t really cross anyway, they can dribble at pace though – maybe good for counter attacks

Final decision

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·         Bastians to provide width on the left, lock down that to compensate by having DC on cover and CM on defend

·         Celozzi has more risky passes added PI

·         Goal scorers to be Wurtz and Quashner

·         Cellozzi and Eisfield to act as playmakers

It is a risk giving up my flanks, therefore I may change which FB stays back/which side CM stays back depending on opposition

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·         Home V Dresden (standard or control)

·         I am slight favourite

·         Exp 6th vs Exp 13

image.thumb.png.7482135c68450c3236d79707b09c94f7.png

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·         Defensively(yellow) I was very pleased

·         Whilst it looks above like Dresden had a lot of shots in the box, they were all headers from set pieces or very deep crosses.

·         I think having 2 destroyers on defend duty plus my box to box cm who is naturally a right back made life very difficult for them

·         Offensively (blue) I was awful, with only 1 shot in the box and that was right at the end when they were pushing for an equaliser (I won 1-0)  so lots of space free by that point – lets see why...

image.png.d6e59c1feeedb798eb7ee3487bc614ba.png

·         Their 3 cm constantly crowded out my attacking trio – forcing them into long shots. This happened 10 times.

Other issues

·         You will notice from above Wurtz is in the AMC position making passes and Eisfield up front. The idea was they should swap positions – Eisfield come deep and playmaker as an F9, Wurz act as a second striker as an AMC attack – but this movement isn’t happening  - I accept this lack of movement and swap the players - Eisfield is now my AMC, Wurz is False 9

 

·         My left back who is a FB attack got a poor rating – this is because he failed at 10 crosses. His crossing is 14 so seems strange, maybe other attributes affect crossing as well and he lacks these? – though a lot of the time he only had one to aim at? – I change him to WB support so that any crossing instructions are removed

 

One experimental change

 

·         AF and F9 both have move into channels – I think one needs to stay central so Quashner is changed to a poacher

 

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·         Home Vs Heidenheim (playing standard or control)

·         Exp 6th Vs Exp 14th

·         I’m slight favourites

·         Steipermann in at AMC for Eisfeild due to injury

image.png.8ead117dd8f7f33a4464387a4fb6cbd0.pngimage.png.65468a58ccf30eb216f20b80bbaa8dbe.png

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·         Defensively (red) I was very pleased again, only 1 shot in the box from open play (other 2 were set pieces)

·         Offensively (blue) rubbish again – only 1 shot in the box from open play, other one was a set piece

You will see below it’s the same old story of being crowded out in the middle forcing long shots

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I think that's enough for the forum to give me advice.

My main questions are:

  • Have I chosen the most efficient formation for the players at my disposal
  • How can I change roles and duties to create more chances and stop being crowded out!

Thanks for reading

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In every screenshot showing the shots, one thing stands out clearly - your F9 is taking a bunch of long shots, so first thing should be to ask him not to.

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1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

In every screenshot showing the shots, one thing stands out clearly - your F9 is taking a bunch of long shots, so first thing should be to ask him not to.

I know that seems very obvious thing to say but I assumed it was a roles and duties issue not creating space that meant he had no option rather than shoot.

But yes i'd be silly not to add the PI and see if that works.

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Just now, Leccy said:

I know that seems very obvious thing to say but I assumed it was a roles and duties issue not creating space that meant he had no option rather than shoot.

But yes i'd be silly not to add the PI and see if that works.

Don't get me wrong, that will be a cause too, but that's a start to eliminate some of those shots. 

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I think having the CM-D is too negative, limiting options the f9 and amc have.  Yes he is available deeper but your not really setup as a patient possession system.  Would you prefer more backwards passes to him and more patience? Are your players good at it (do t have time to look through your info ATM).  Would you prefer he is higher and in a more threatening position to play through the attackers or pull a midfielder wide?

All your images are in the final third but what about when transitioning?  Is there opportunity to move the ball quicker/further to get the ball to the forwards earlier with more space?

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Sir, I am not expert but I think yours role in attack poacher might is wrong. Poacher is player who is scorer and with him in squad you do not need many players in the box. If I have seen your roles you will have in the box poacher, false 9 atacking midfilder A and box to box midfilder. Maybe mezzala or some role that does not finish his run in the box.

Good luck

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19 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I think having the CM-D is too negative, limiting options the f9 and amc have.  Yes he is available deeper but your not really setup as a patient possession system.  Would you prefer more backwards passes to him and more patience? Are your players good at it (do t have time to look through your info ATM).  Would you prefer he is higher and in a more threatening position to play through the attackers or pull a midfielder wide?

All your images are in the final third but what about when transitioning?  Is there opportunity to move the ball quicker/further to get the ball to the forwards earlier with more space?

Can you explain why my roles/duties aren't suited to possession?

Ok so I think my midfield are getting the ball forward nice and early to my front three THEN they slow it down and the defence gets back.

I have experimented playing with wingers upfront who have awful goal scoring attributes but either excellent dribbling with pace

This has resulted in a lot more goals by getting in behind or running at the defence i.e. playing much more quickly and direct.

This frustrates me as it suggests it's not possible to play either of my 2 actual strikers on attack duties that look to score just because they cant dribble (i.e Poacher or AF)

I'll try and show what I mean:

     Ant         Otb       Com           Dec              Acc       Pac              Fin            Dri            Fir
Striker 1 14 12 11 11   13 16   13 9 11
Striker 2 10 12 12 10   13 14   14 10 13
                       
Winger 1 9 10 8 9   13 17   11 13 13
Winger 2 12 14 9 9   13 14   10 15 14

To me Winger 1 should not be a better Attack duty striker than Striker 1 - he has awful mentals and average finishing.

Yet he outperforms because he can dribble at pace.

Which leaves me questioning can I even play my two strikers?

They have low passing and vision / average composure and first touch - so on the pitch they don't seem to perform in support duties either.

It's seems if someone doesn't excel in something but just have solid decent attributes then they don't play well.

I'm a bit lost how to fit them in to be honest - these are my latest roles and duties on Standard / flexible

BBM More risky passes added

Capture.JPG.64a98739267e35273de490e532c4e07f.JPG       

Edited by Leccy

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Your full backs should be wider to stretch your opponents defence = Allowing runs into the box by your BBM and AM. 

 

A poacher is someone who isn't offering much during build-up play = Not necessarily doing runs in behind the defence. 

 

Try to play with higher tempo and shorter passes. Moving the ball quickly will disorientate the opposition and there will be space for your midfield to run into if the pass is played.

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4 hours ago, Leccy said:

Can you explain why my roles/duties aren't suited to possession?

Ok so I think my midfield are getting the ball forward nice and early to my front three THEN they slow it down and the defence gets back.

Your GK + 7 deepest roles+duties do suit possession style, but then you have 3 risky players stuck up top.  Poacher + AM-A focusing more on taking risks and making runs whilst the F9 is trying to create.  Plus scanning your screenshots your teams decision making is poor, its physical attributes + aggression looks much better which I think fits a more vertical/aggressive style.

You might be getting the ball forward early, but no one deep is really creating.  Standard + Flexible team shape with those roles+duties no one is really a creator trying to play a ball through early for one of the two high early runners.  They also aren't trying to get forward early to provide early width to stretch the defence for the central runners and give that lone creator (F9) more options.  How often is the pass moving the ball into the final third aimed behind the opponents d-line? Once you progress higher it gets hard to play risky through balls to the runners and they end up standing around whilst the rest of the team is trying to move the ball around or just decides to swing a cross in or take a shot whilst they see a chance.

In plain english i'd say your tactic is "get the ball forward efficiently to the front 3 then they have to create something whilst the other 7 outfielders stay pretty safe".  Its patient, patient, patient then once the forwards get it, it becomes DO SOMETHING WITH IT!

4 hours ago, Leccy said:

I have experimented playing with wingers upfront who have awful goal scoring attributes but either excellent dribbling with pace

This has resulted in a lot more goals by getting in behind or running at the defence i.e. playing much more quickly and direct.

This frustrates me as it suggests it's not possible to play either of my 2 actual strikers on attack duties that look to score just because they cant dribble (i.e Poacher or AF)

Following on from the above, they're probably doing better because they can do something individually to create something out of very little.  I think the "strikers" struggle due to lack of deeper creators and two players very close to each other trying to perform the same job and a lack of early width.

4 hours ago, Leccy said:

I'm a bit lost how to fit them in to be honest - these are my latest roles and duties on Standard / flexible

BBM More risky passes added

Capture.JPG.64a98739267e35273de490e532c4e07f.JPG       

What about putting a creator into midfield with a creator role rather than adding a PI? 

What about playing a creator in AMC who can receive a layoff from a forward and might be able to play through the runner instead of trying to make a run himself?

I think whilst you've analysed the positions, you haven't identified what your team is good at.  Its all been a bit individual or a couple of combinations rather than the bigger picture.  What is your team actually good at?  Hardworking + physical?  Fast attackers with other players able to play through balls for them?

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Bochum’s squad has been a bit unbalanced for a few years, especially last year. I agree with the consensus that you need more mobility and creativity from midfield but there’s not too many great passers in the squad 

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The ironic thing about this thread is i'm actually top after 13 games! But I don't think it's sustainable looking at the analysis.

5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

In plain english i'd say your tactic is "get the ball forward efficiently to the front 3 then they have to create something whilst the other 7 outfielders stay pretty safe".  Its patient, patient, patient then once the forwards get it, it becomes DO SOMETHING WITH IT!

That's exactly how it plays out on the pitch, yes.

5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Plus scanning your screenshots your teams decision making is poor, its physical attributes + aggression looks much better which I think fits a more vertical/aggressive style.

That's a good assessment of my squad, yes.

Given that:

  • Do you think that means I should be playing a more direct/pass into space style and if so does a diamond make this possible or would i be better with a wider formation e.g 4-1-2-3
  • In terms of the good determination/aggression/bravery i have - what impact would this have when deciding how i should play, attempting to win the ball higher up the pitch?
5 hours ago, Fosse said:

Bochum’s squad has been a bit unbalanced for a few years, especially last year. I agree with the consensus that you need more mobility and creativity from midfield but there’s not too many great passers in the squad 

Can you remember how you played in FM17? How did you get on?

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1 hour ago, Leccy said:

The ironic thing about this thread is i'm actually top after 13 games! But I don't think it's sustainable looking at the analysis.

:lol: this is happening so much recently, mangers not happy with how team is playing but still winning!  If your in this situation I wouldn't make dramatic changes, analyse -> identify issue -> propose fixes and what effect you expect -> try it -> re-analyse to see if it had intended effect on your play, if not revert it.

1 hour ago, Leccy said:

That's exactly how it plays out on the pitch, yes.

That's a good assessment of my squad, yes.

Given that:

  • Do you think that means I should be playing a more direct/pass into space style and if so does a diamond make this possible or would i be better with a wider formation e.g 4-1-2-3
  • In terms of the good determination/aggression/bravery i have - what impact would this have when deciding how i should play, attempting to win the ball higher up the pitch?

I'm not sure I would go all in on a specific style, I would keep it quite balanced and try and build the squad in the way you want to go, especially as your doing well.  Rather than telling team to be direct and/or pass into space, maybe tell the best deep passer to do so.  To help plan for the future try experimenting in a game your in control of or in games at end of season that don't really matter.  Playing direct in 442 Diamond should be fine so long as they are good at collecting the ball, direct != hoof ball and its not like your doing it to a lone forward who's on attack and going to have to go on a solo run etc.  It might be that you don't need/want to go More Direct Passing, you might just want to go to Control mentality so players will favor forward passes more due to a higher mentality plus they'll take more risks with positioning + runs etc.  Maybe the FBs will need to get forward earlier to support the more forward and/or direct passing focus.  Try and envision how the ball is going to be moved and how the players will have to move to give options & support.  Slow&short passing?  Why have loads of players bombing high and playing on shoulder?  Playing fast&direct? What have load of players behind the ball or offering shorter passes to there feet?  Two extremes to give an example.

Due to you having good physicals rather than mentals, i'd not press too high and potentially pin opponents into there defensive third.  I'd let them push out into the middle third but probably wouldn't sit deep in your own third.  Your formation should effectively split the field in half and make switches of play hard except for long balls (which can be good to intercept) so if your central players can press opponents against the touchline it could work nicely.  

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12 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

:lol: this is happening so much recently, mangers not happy with how team is playing but still winning!  If your in this situation I wouldn't make dramatic changes, analyse -> identify issue -> propose fixes and what effect you expect -> try it -> re-analyse to see if it had intended effect on your play, if not revert it.

Haha I just feel like shots in the box are a better indicator than results as set pieces, penalties, individual efforts can distort things and eventually you revert to the mean.

Anyway I just want to say a massive thanks to @summatsupeer as this is the most enjoyable save I've ever had, look at my previous posts and you'll see how awful I normally am at FM.

I'm not claiming to have cracked FM but i'm top at Christmas with a team predicted 6th which has never happened to me before.

I'm now convinced I have the most efficient roles and duties for my squad, as I create tons of chances in the box every game:

Capture.thumb.PNG.90efa40837daf10254bbfda164c8331f.PNG

I play on Control as this defines my passing style of direct to those 3 runners and encourages closing down in the middle third.

Remember this also makes your defensive line higher, my players seem to cope with this but if they couldn't  i'm sure this could be be fixed by dropping it on a TI.

I have a playmaker in midfield and another when the box is in the final third (F9)

I don't have any team instructions but I do have both my full backs on more direct passing.

Now I've yet to play teams that start with a defensive mentality so we'll see how I get on if that happens.

Again i'm not claiming to be an expert just because I've done well in half a season (on FM touch!) but here are some things I've learnt from this thread for anyone else that is struggling:

  • I no longer scale up and down mentality before/during a game to decide how defensive/attacking I want to be. Decide what type of passing your team suits, where they should close down and how high your defensive line should be. That should decide what mentality you use, this is the biggest factor in the style of football you play

 

  • Don't just assume what your players can and can't do based on their attributes. What matters is how well they do the tasks on the pitch. My left back has all the right attributes to be a good crosser but for some reason he is terrible. On the other hand my two central midfielders don't seem to have the right attributes to win the ball back and their roles are forward thinking - on paper I would think i'm far too gung ho but they do a great job in defense as well as attack.

 

  • On attributes, if players excel at something but look rubbish on all their other attributes you can still bring them on to change a game. I start with my best finisher up front, but if i'm 1-0 up and the other team is pushing for an equalizer I might bring on my striker who has 9 finishing 9 composure 9 anticipation but 14 dribbling 13 acc 17 pace - he exploits the space better and still finishes chances despite his attributes

     

  • Instead of changing mentality e.g. to defend a lead you can change roles instead as long as you replace the job that player was doing elsewhere. If a team goes 4-2-4 attacking against me I might change both by central midfielders to BWM to help my full backs - but this means I've lost a runner and a creator. So I might change my AMC to a creator and have BOTH strikers as runners now, e.g both Advanced forwards exploiting space in behind

 

  • If you watch a match you will spot your players that constantly anticipate trouble, or constantly win the ball back or constantly make good runs. If these players are injured and you don't have good replacements then that doesn't mean your tactic is bad. Players matter more than tactics, don't be surprised if you start to struggle when you don't have your best available.

So yeah, my biggest take away is don't assume things, make the changes (players or instructions) then see what happens on the pitch.

My save has been turned around by playing an Adv Pl and BBM S in centre mid when befored I ASSUMED that would leave me far too open.

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20 hours ago, Leccy said:

Can you remember how you played in FM17? How did you get on?

Promoted first or second season with a 4141, in a not very interesting turn of events I'm also playing  a 4141 with my Bochum save on FM18, finish 5th consecutively and then 4th in the mid 2020s.

Edited by Fosse

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