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Let's be honest, is anyone going to bother with FM19?

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3 hours ago, SLB-Dark-Angel said:

Normally I am very excited when a new version of the game comes to the shelves or online, and I pre-ordered the last versions, I am not excited for the 2019 version, because apart from a few new things on 2018 version the game is going down the hill, 2018 version brought the same problems of older versions, AI (atificial inteligence) should be called NIAA (No Inteligence At All) even goalkeepers just stand still or not trying to get the ball or even worse they just out position to intercept the ball, sometimes the ball is near them but the strikers arrive first, sometimes scoring, sometimes missing easy goals (that's happen in real life... but not that much). Players in real life tend to run to avoid corners or throw ins against them (in the game they could be near to the ball but don't care if the ball gives a corner or throw ins against them) or when the ball is last touched by an opponent defenders or goalkeepers don't mind if the ball goes to the final line (unless it is going to the goal) but on the game players tend to cut a ball that was easier if they let the ball goes of the pitch.

If we manage a lower league then is worse, I know that in real life lower league players are not Messis or Cristianos Ronaldos or Buffons, but they are football players even if they are amateur players, they know how to play, they sign for a team because they have something on them, or if they are real bad, they will never play for even an amateur team (that is real life, I was an amateur football player) I have some friends from my childhood that they have tried to play in amateur teams but NEVER been called after trials, on this game looks like amateur players could be everyone even if they don't know how to kick a ball. The bugs or whatever you call it are terrible, terrible mistakes from defenders, goalkeepers, midfielders, strikers that could happen in real life (well some of the mistakes are impossible in real life like a defender passing back the ball and the goalkeeper just looking or taking the ball inside their own goal) but not that often.

Stop a year or two producing the game (they just  look updates) and present us with a fresh game, better AI, better graphics, better tactics, better tranning, better interacrion with staff, players and media (is quite repetitive for the last years) better 3D, better game motor, better editor (I edit some stuff and is not reflected on the game, looks like the editor don't work properly). Don't forget is an investiment for the future of the game is not throwing away money, invest on 3D programmers or general programmers, technology and progress never stops.

These things above are just a part of what being called as bugs but never been solved for a lot of years now.

Thanks SI

I think they need investment not just on 3D programmers they also need to work with football experts to ensure that tactics are updated and reflect modern game.

Also the AI.

It's frustrating that the left and right backs just hug the line even when they are defending, leaving the central defenders exposed. I can understand if they are attacking and want to provide width but during defense and having no opposition wingers? Shouldn't they tuck in to support their central defenders?

And this too: loose ball from an attacking corner, opposing team has the ball and counter attacks. my team is exposed and my attackers happen to be the ones trying to chase down the attackers and I am left with two full backs defending. so what happens?

upon reaching the midway line my attackers, whilst chasing the opposition players, turn back! 

really SI?

Imagine seeing basic stuff like these on a game that has been around for so long?

I personally find it unacceptable. 

I can deal with boring celebrations, poor crowd effects, unrealistic stadium designs...

but how an such basic game play be so, so bad?? especially one that is so crucial to the very essence of the game.

Yes it may be the best but it's only due to a lack of competition. 

Nokia was for a long time, the best and no one thought somebody can produce a better phone.

And we all know what happened.

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Edited by theballstopshere

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10 hours ago, Barside said:

That’s where @PMLF could help, if the Brazilian transfer market in FM is not a fair representation of real life the coding & QA teams can make adjustments based on testing feedback from the Brazilian research team.

There were changes in FM2018 to make it closer to real life, like more transfers in the first months of the year and more loans but there are lots of changes that still need to be done. 

5 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

Brazilian football is far more dynamic compared to European. There are more players moving clubs, more transfers, higher variety of transfers, especially loans... It seems to me like half of the teams change 50% of their squad between seasons. Plus, there is a huge drain of players towards Europe, Asia and the Middle East. Might be wrong on these, it is only my impression after two years following only the top league. Hope @PMLF can provide more competent insight.

The drain you mention works both ways as many players from Europe and Asia return to Brazil every year, that aside, there are always many players coming from lower levels or youth setup.

One thing the game still doesn't have is the move of players to state league teams, and then those same players moving to Série A, B and C teams once the state leagues are over. So many clubs in real life end up having to build two squads, one for the state leagues, then after this one is dismantled, they build another squad for the national league.

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Another year of release and we still have not a single idea of what the game would be like..Another year that the company asks for preorders of a product that we know nothing about it..BFV for example will be released one month earlier than FM and we already playing the open beta and we know the basic features almost 2 months now..

I am a loyal fan of the game and I have all the boxed versions since CM97/98 but there is a big decline in the latest versions...Useless little features announced every year like social media, hierarchy etc etc plus the updated squads and that's it and we see nothing new in the HEART of the game, the MATCH ENGINE..

Since the introduction of the 3D graphics little to nothing have changed and its almost 10 years since the release...You cannot say the difference if you play with Man City or Salford, and if you see Ronaldo, Messi or an amateur from conference north..Everything looks so similar and it's very dissapointing..We are almost in 2019 for Jesus shake!

You cannot replicate tatctics like in real life neither the AI can, you cannot play possession football like Man CIty or Barcelona neither AI can etc etc..Defenders still cannot pass from the one foot to the other, goalkeepers still doing terrible mistakes, attackers lose easily one on ones or shoot from 200meters even if you tell them to pass rather than shoot and soooo many other things that destroy this game... 

To conclude this I really really hope that the change of the front cover might be the end of an era and the start of another but is something I doubt about it because if it was true we would already had the new features that will make all the fans preorder it like crazy 

So if nothing will change in the match engine and the 3D animation you can count on a one less loyal fan

Hope this year I will be wrong

R.I.P CM97/98-FM2018

 

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5 minutes ago, Alekos said:

Another year of release and we still have not a single idea of what the game would be like..Another year that the company asks for preorders of a product that we know nothing about it..BFV for example will be released one month earlier than FM and we already playing the open beta and we know the basic features almost 2 months now..

SI haven't announced FM19's new features yet because they're not ready to confirm what will be in FM19. I've also heard somewhere that they don't want to disappoint fans by announcing a ground-breaking brand spanking new feature, only for it to not be in the game for whatever reason.

As for the now common complaint about SI offering a completely optional pre-order (with a 10% discount), which you can CANCEL before the game is fully released without charge:rolleyes:

12 minutes ago, Alekos said:

Since the introduction of the 3D graphics little to nothing have changed and its almost 10 years since the release...You cannot say the difference if you play with Man City or Salford, and if you see Ronaldo, Messi or an amateur from conference north..Everything looks so similar and it's very dissapointing..We are almost in 2019 for Jesus shake!

Really? Nothing's changed? As I see it, there have certainly been major changes between FM11 and FM18. For all of the FM18 match engine's faults, I don't think players run through each other, like they did six or seven versions ago. There also seems to be a lot fewer cross-goals, which were surprisingly common in FM13.

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19 minutes ago, Alekos said:

Another year of release and we still have not a single idea of what the game would be like..Another year that the company asks for preorders of a product that we know nothing about it..BFV for example will be released one month earlier than FM and we already playing the open beta and we know the basic features almost 2 months now..

I am a loyal fan of the game and I have all the boxed versions since CM97/98 but there is a big decline in the latest versions...Useless little features announced every year like social media, hierarchy etc etc plus the updated squads and that's it and we see nothing new in the HEART of the game, the MATCH ENGINE..

 

 

The announcement clearly says that we'll get info late Sept.

 

We don't often get specific ME announcements because it's mostly going to be a boring headline. Every year it's worked on and changes made, so there's never "nothing" being done.

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7 minutes ago, CFuller said:

SI haven't announced FM19's new features yet because they're not ready to confirm what will be in FM19. I've also heard somewhere that they don't want to disappoint fans by announcing a ground-breaking brand spanking new feature, only for it to not be in the game for whatever reason.

As for the now common complaint about SI offering a completely optional pre-order (with a 10% discount), which you can CANCEL before the game is fully released without charge:rolleyes:

Really? Nothing's changed? As I see it, there have certainly been major changes between FM11 and FM18. For all of the FM18 match engine's faults, I don't think players run through each other, like they did six or seven versions ago. There also seems to be a lot fewer cross-goals, which were surprisingly common in FM13.

Sorry but those are not valid arguments if you say that players do not run through each other...This is somtheing that should never really happen...If they couldn't animate this then the game should have stayed in 2D..

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18 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The announcement clearly says that we'll get info late Sept.

 

We don't often get specific ME announcements because it's mostly going to be a boring headline. Every year it's worked on and changes made, so there's never "nothing" being done.

Boring headline the match engine???Match engine is what the game really is..

"Nothing" might be too much but I know you understood what I was trying to say

If they wanted 3-4 versions to fix players run through each other then how many versions do they need to be able to replicate real life football? As I said even in the latest version there are so many unrealistic things that are happening and the game becomes so predictable..I know that when my DM who is between the half line and the penalty area he will try to shoot to the stands rather than pass..I know that the 98 of 100 free kicks will go out of bounds..I know that my attacker who is one on one against the opossite goalkeeper he will shoot from a wide position or tight angle or he will take the worst decision possible even if he has a very high finishing and decision rating...I know also that if the cross goes to the far the post 99% will be a goal no matter what..Those are the things that SI should focus on and not those little useless social media things..

I am really wondering which is the selling target of the company...

Oh I forgot to mention also the poor player unhappiness no matter if the team won promotion won the cup the league the world cup the galaxy cup they will still find a reason to be unhappy..Have not been fixed in 20 years now I think..And please correct me If I am wrong..

Edited by Alekos

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Just now, Alekos said:

Match engine is what the game really is..

We all know this. But it's not much of a headline to say "hey, we have tweaked passing accuracy and defender reactions in the box". One of the major reasons I play the new version IS because of the ME updates, but I fell asleep just typing that "headline".

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On a side note, has anyone witnessed the amount of shots from narrow angles plaguing earlier versions? I'm not a fan of FM18 but one of the things I appreciated the most was the assist towards a better position teammate in the box (if you're not playing very offensively ofc). That was not an easy fix and I think it didn't get the credit it deserved.

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1 minute ago, Federico said:

On a side note, has anyone witnessed the amount of shots from narrow angles plaguing earlier versions? I'm not a fan of FM18 but one of the things I appreciated the most was the assist towards a better position teammate in the box (if you're not playing very offensively ofc). That was not an easy fix and I think it didn't get the credit it deserved.

I did notice that. That fix was quite a big deal at the time, if I remember correctly, and it further illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

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Yeah I rephrase it: shots from narrow angles were plaguing earlier versions of the game, but it was beautifully fixed with FM18. But you got my point @CFuller

 

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14 hours ago, CFuller said:

This is why SI are in a no-win situation with some FMers.

If Miles announces, "This year, we've focussed on making thousands of tweaks to the match engine to make it run better than ever", a lot of people will complain about the lack of new features and say, "It's basically FM18.5."

If Miles doesn't announce that, and instead unveils a raft of shiny new features, a lot of people will complain that the match engine was untouched and say, "It's basically FM18.5."

What's with this all or nothing narrative?

such an easy cop-out. 

I don't think people are asking for a "match engine only improvement" here. 

yes, match engine is perhaps the most important, but why can't we have a combination of a great ME and new important features? it does not need to have as many new features as before if a lot of time and focus have been put on ME. 

why do you keep beating the drum of all match engine and nothing else? or vice versa?

that's not what people are asking for here, at least not me.

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Haven't missed a version since I found the series (when is was Championship Manager) back in the early/mid 90s....don't see a reason to stop now!

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45 minutes ago, theballstopshere said:

What's with this all or nothing narrative?

such an easy cop-out. 

I don't think people are asking for a "match engine only improvement" here. 

yes, match engine is perhaps the most important, but why can't we have a combination of a great ME and new important features? it does not need to have as many new features as before if a lot of time and focus have been put on ME. 

why do you keep beating the drum of all match engine and nothing else? or vice versa?

that's not what people are asking for here, at least not me.

That is not what I'm saying at all.

Of course I'd like improvements to the ME (which SI make every year). Of course I'd like a sprinkling of new features (which SI make every year). The point I'm trying to make is that some people have such warped expectations that if they see SI to have focussed too heavily on improving one thing, they'll criticise them for not doing enough work on the other.

Football Manager is a game that's 26 years in the making. It's still not perfect (indeed, it's not even close), but aside from perhaps OOTP Baseball, you'll have trouble finding another computer game that simulates its sport so realistically. Though the ME could still be improved significantly, there is no other football match engine that comes close to matching it (pardon the pun).

Of course, there will come a point where any new features SI add to the game feel negligible to certain FMers. The truth is that a football manager only does so much - especially nowadays, with European-style head coaches becoming more prevalent in the UK. As such, the new features those FMers might want to see would turn the game into Football Manager/Chairman/CEO/Groundsperson/Mascot.

Edited by CFuller

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3 hours ago, CFuller said:

aside from perhaps OOTP Baseball, you'll have trouble finding another computer game that simulates its sport so realistically

MLB The Show.

NBA 2K series.

Madden NFL.

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On 08/09/2018 at 13:36, SLB-Dark-Angel said:

The bugs or whatever you call it are terrible, terrible mistakes from defenders, goalkeepers, midfielders, strikers that could happen in real life (well some of the mistakes are impossible in real life like a defender passing back the ball and the goalkeeper just looking or taking the ball inside their own goal) but not that often.

 

 About forwards "fluffing" it (too often on the game): It's really hard to gauge specifics, as FM just doesn't provide such numbers, and likely isn't specifically balanced that way. But I'm 99.9% confident that if the game were to produce the finishing streaks that top football has on all levels, there would endure rage quits across the board. Personally, I'd love to see it improved, as it is oft a significant factor of teams "overperforming" or "underperforming", at least over single seasons in the point tables -- which last but 30-40 matches, after all, decided in oft super small margins. There is enough data in the meantime to back that up to oft being a factor in some form whenever teams over or underperform in the point tables. Which, in any league, happens every year. However, whilst that would increase randomness some and "surprises", I'm not convinced players would react well overall. After all, more randomness would mean you sometimes could'nt do hugely wrong and still see the sack, as for weeks the points wouldn't be there. And whilst that may be a good simulation of football (management), including properly replicating how short-sighted and blinkered and panicky fans and boards oft are, it may not be that pleasant a gaming experience, even if it goes the other way 'round and goes to one's benefit.

On FM, outside of individual matches, the correlation between shots/chances and goals is higher consistently. It doesn't have the "freak" occurances football tends to produce over the mid, sometimes longer term of a season. Which in the grand scheme of things, as aruged, is but 30-40 matches still in the league -- a format that is more likely to crown the better team as champions, and see the worse ones relegated, but only by this much (which is probably a good thing). Of course top sides on FM can underperform (in particular if managed by AI). But not like that, which is already evident from rather simplistic stats, such as the shot tables, which they unlike in real football also often don't even dominate much. Then again, unlike real sports, a game is not that sports, but Maths. That's a whole different can of worms, though. :D

Edited by Svenc

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2 hours ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

MLB The Show.

NBA 2K series.

Madden NFL.

They are sports action games which is a very different genre to FM & OTTB.

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I think this year's FM has been good. The introduction of proper dressing room atmosphere's is a good thing, and I like the fact (despite it sometimes being frustrating) that teams can have massive slumps and good runs. It adds momentum, which is a huge part of real life football. The scouting revamp seems to have confused things, unless I just don't understand it yet despite playing all year - if I scout a player I want to see a report in my inbox in the next few days, and the current scouting system doesn't do that which to me is stupid. But that's nitpicking.

The big problem I have is the outdated look of the game. It hasn't improved or kept up to date with modern techniques like other games have. Look at the FIFA menu's, they are modern and slick. Example, if you go on a website that was designed 5 years ago - you notice. It's the same with the FM interface. Quite frankly it's outdated and cluttered. The UX design is also poor. There are buttons all over the game that doesn't do what you think it would. Example, the quick button toolbar for tactics when you are in a game. I have logged about 700 hours this year and I still don't know what does what. That's bad.

On 06/09/2018 at 16:46, GoldenGoal said:

ODoTZEs.png

This sums it up perfectly! While it's funny, it's also slightly sad how they have bodged regens faces. All the technology that is available nowadays and they come out with that in the past few games. Made even more annoying that you are forced to use the plastic, melted regen face as your managerial avatar and not a picture (minor, I know, but it's annoying to me).

I don't care about the match engine, add more animations, sure, but please, for the love of good, improve the look and interface of your menus. If I open up FM19 and it looks similar to 18 it's going to be a huge disappointment to me. Thankfully, with the new logo, I think they are going in the direction I hope.

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On 06/09/2018 at 16:46, GoldenGoal said:

ODoTZEs.png

Now that would be funnier if the face you used to represent FM18 was a genuine newgen face, rather than that of a deliberately ugly user-created manager. Sorry to be pedantic.

As I've said before, there needs to be a lot more variety in newgen faces and hairstyles. In FM18, it's pretty hard to distinguish between newgens in your team, especially if they've all turned the same colour.

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3 hours ago, CFuller said:

Now that would be funnier if the face you used to represent FM18 was a genuine newgen face, rather than that of a deliberately ugly user-created manager. Sorry to be pedantic.

As I've said before, there needs to be a lot more variety in newgen faces and hairstyles. In FM18, it's pretty hard to distinguish between newgens in your team, especially if they've all turned the same colour.

The FM18 manager face on that image was not deliberate -- it was a glitched face (from here). The FM17 face on that image represents the regen face problem in FM17 perfectly, monstrous faces. But in FM18 the regen face problems are different, which are:

  • Less variety in facial features and hair
  • Constant glitches with lighting and shading (demonstrated since FM17 and still not fixed)
  • Constant skin color changes
  • No possibility to mod new hair in

I couldn't point all of that out in one funny image, but there is one thing that is for managers only that I could. Players cannot add a picture to use instead of their 3D face (it was unecessarily removed by SI) so when glitches like this happen players have to get lucky it's solved on its own. I think that represents a really bad mentality SI had when they did that, FORCING users to use a feature they do not wish. This attitude by the developers can even be seen in the bug post I linked above. So that ridiculous error was funny on its own and also had symbolic value.

Anyway, hopefully they will be better in the future, as its one of the most important factors in the game for me. Faces in FM16 especially were very well done (only problem is that they were too close and we could not mod shirts in), FM08-FM15 were also well done but it was generally the same tech being used for all those games. What happened in FM17 and FM18?

Edited by GoldenGoal

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20 minutes ago, GoldenGoal said:

Anyway, hopefully they will be better in the future, as its one of the most important factors in the game for me. Faces in FM16 especially were very well done (only problem is that they were too close and we could not mod shirts in), FM08-FM15 were also well done but it was generally the same tech being used for all those games. What happened in FM17 and FM18?

I agree with you that newgen faces are quite important (I like long-term saves) and that the faces in FM16 were probably the best they'd been. I liked FM13's faces as well, even if they were lacking a little bit on variety.

I'm not entirely sure what changed between FM16 and FM17. Maybe someone from SI, or someone else who is more in-the-know than me, could explain that.

As for the difference between FM17 and FM18, they went from 2D-generated faces to 3D, which meant those old hair packs no longer worked (to be fair, 2D hair on a 3D face just doesn't look good). Going off FM18, the short-term results... haven't been great, to say the least. Long-term, I'm confident SI will get it right and make newgen faces the best they've ever looked, even if it takes another version or two.

Edited by CFuller

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14 hours ago, CFuller said:

Now that would be funnier if the face you used to represent FM18 was a genuine newgen face, rather than that of a deliberately ugly user-created manager. Sorry to be pedantic.

As I've said before, there needs to be a lot more variety in newgen faces and hairstyles. In FM18, it's pretty hard to distinguish between newgens in your team, especially if they've all turned the same colour.

The face gallery, whilst very funny, represents an alarming number of key game elements that are sliding backwards; along with regen faces, there is:

- The UI. Still the most mystifying design choice of FM18

- Stadia and crowds. Awful in FM18

- The match engine and 3D animations. FM18 was clunky, homogenous and repetitive

 

Returning to the look and feel of FM17 with improved 3D and tactics would be a winning step.

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1 hour ago, rdbayly said:

The face gallery, whilst very funny, represents an alarming number of key game elements that are sliding backwards; along with regen faces, there is:

- The UI. Still the most mystifying design choice of FM18

- Stadia and crowds. Awful in FM18

- The match engine and 3D animations. FM18 was clunky, homogenous and repetitive

 

Returning to the look and feel of FM17 with improved 3D and tactics would be a winning step.

Spot on

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On 02/09/2018 at 10:30, Neotropolis said:

The thing is though, it isn't. Yes there are many teams that play with three attacking players up top, but there are none that play with three STRIKERS. The teams that play 3 up top usually have a Striker and two wingers/inside forwards or maybe two Strikers and an attacking mid who plays off them.

In all fairness, 3 Striker formations are only common in this game because they are an exploit (if used in the right way, just having three strikers doesn't guarantee success). How do we know that SI hasn't been working on it. FM19 hasn't been released yet and there is only ever one ME for each game in the FM series. And no doubt they'll have fixed it, if possible. But then they'll be another exploit that exists in the game which people will make the same complaints that are made in every version. Fixing something like this is a highly complex ME isn't a simple fix. And you can almost guarantee that any fix will change something else because that's exactly how coding and game development works. Fix one bug, create two more.

I was happy to pass through this article without a word but had to respond to this - this is wrong. He is referring to three-striker tactics and saying they're not popular.

I disagree, they are popular. Three striker tactics have been a thing for me since forever especially at the previously-mentioned Napoli and, to name another, Leipzig. Playing three strikers (Werner on the left, Poulsen in the middle and Sabitzer on the right) throughout FM17 was what made me different from their conventional style of play and, in addition, the league. I tried the same thing on FM18 with the only difference being occasionally switching to Augustin on the right, and at first I thought it was just luck but it eventually became clear to me that it was just down to the poor ME.

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5 hours ago, BanOly said:

I was happy to pass through this article without a word but had to respond to this - this is wrong. He is referring to three-striker tactics and saying they're not popular.

I disagree, they are popular. Three striker tactics have been a thing for me since forever especially at the previously-mentioned Napoli and, to name another, Leipzig. Playing three strikers (Werner on the left, Poulsen in the middle and Sabitzer on the right) throughout FM17 was what made me different from their conventional style of play and, in addition, the league. I tried the same thing on FM18 with the only difference being occasionally switching to Augustin on the right, and at first I thought it was just luck but it eventually became clear to me that it was just down to the poor ME.

They aren't popular. Hardly any teams use 3 Striker formations. They play 3 'attackers' which often have 1 or 2 strikers with either wingers/inside forwards or attacking mids. It's never 3 out and out strikers. Both Leipzig and Napoli are examples of a 3 'attackers' formation. Not 3 Strikers.

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I think a lot of people overlook the fact that SI is not some big company, but a small one. They expect work from SI that you'd expect EA to do in an year, not a smaller company (No disrespect) like SI.

 

In case, you've forgotten, SI has to provide patches, they have to provide updates to the database of the current version, while also working on the next FM.

SI simply aren't that big a company or that rich to afford so much effort, and nor are FM sales high enough to justify running it like it's the next version of FIFA.

Interestingly, I've found that after they changed the engine, FIFA have made zero real changes in their new versions other than shiny buttons and a Journey update. That's a huge company that finds it hard to make updates, let alone SI

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On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 18:19, rdbayly said:

The face gallery, whilst very funny, represents an alarming number of key game elements that are sliding backwards; along with regen faces, there is:

- The UI. Still the most mystifying design choice of FM18

- Stadia and crowds. Awful in FM18

- The match engine and 3D animations. FM18 was clunky, homogenous and repetitive

 

Returning to the look and feel of FM17 with improved 3D and tactics would be a winning step.

I totally agree about the UI. it's just awful.

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To answer the OP. Yes. I thoroughly enjoyed FM17. Skipped FM18 as I sometimes do skip releases because then by waiting I get even more "new" features. Can't wait for FM19, which I have pre-ordered :)

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I will get it, however the whole thing needs stripping back. Too much dead-wood content such as interviews that are meaningless and repetitive 

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On 03/09/2018 at 09:12, forameuss said:

There's scores and scores of people who do just that, who gather reams of examples of bugs they're seeing and bring them to SI's attention.  Then there's the group that would rather passive-aggressively post with nothing to back it up.  Not only does it make someone look desperate for attention, it also holds absolutely no value. 

I think you have to accept that people's commitment to the game expresses itself in a different way to yours. Most people play it because they want a football manager game, and they like the level of absorption that FM provides. By your own admission, you spend your time working with the editor files and put the number of game hours spent at double figures. (I'm pretty sure you're doing yourself a disservice here, but let it pass). The group that you say out with nothing to back it up are the ones who actually play the game, possibly for hours on end, and it is inevitable that repetition sets in, patterns become recognisable, and in some cases this becomes annoying. They have every right to voice that dissatisfaction.  

In answer to the original question, would I buy FM 19. Probably, but that doesn't mean that I don't think competition would be a good thing, or that I'm not wary of the direction that "team Dynamics" is taking the game - away from being tactical and into over-compensated narratives about player temperament and morale. Maybe if you played the game more, you might have more empathy with people who are critical, even if you didn't agree with them?

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7 minutes ago, scass said:

I think you have to accept that people's commitment to the game expresses itself in a different way to yours. Most people play it because they want a football manager game, and they like the level of absorption that FM provides. By your own admission, you spend your time working with the editor files and put the number of game hours spent at double figures. (I'm pretty sure you're doing yourself a disservice here, but let it pass). The group that you say out with nothing to back it up are the ones who actually play the game, possibly for hours on end, and it is inevitable that repetition sets in, patterns become recognisable, and in some cases this becomes annoying. They have every right to voice that dissatisfaction.  

...and none of that changes what I said.  You can complain all you like about the game if that's what you want to do, knock yourself out.  But if you give nothing to back it up then from an actual game improvement standpoint (bug reports, proof, etc), you may as well not have said it.  It's essentially empty, hot air.

Edited by forameuss

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15 minutes ago, forameuss said:

...and none of that changes what I said.  You can complain all you like about the game if that's what you want to do, knock yourself out.  But if you give nothing to back it up then from an actual game improvement standpoint (bug reports, proof, etc), you may as well not have said it.  It's essentially empty, hot air.

I'm sorry you feel the need to reply with such an aggressive turn of phrase as "hot air." There has to some acceptance that opinions are opinions, and people are entitled to express them. For example - I can't give you any "proof" of my opinion that the team dynamic function is a poor addition to the game. But I think it is - it places undue weight on players' morale and relationships, and makes a lot of the game about that. You have only played the game for "double figures" hours, so I wouldn't;t expect you to have an opinion on that, but other people might.

Equally, I think there are plenty of things in the match engine which are unsatisfactory - but I also know that it's a very difficult thing to get right. Nonetheless, persistent corners, an overabundance of wild shots (I call it "the corner flag challenge") players welling the ball out to give away a corner for no reason - are frustrating when you play more than one match at a time. I'm not going to deliver a PKM, for the simple reason that it's not my job, and I would rather spend my time doing something else. That doesn't make any observations "hot air". 

Any complaints I make are because I want to play a better game. And I don't doubt that while there are posts which are venting, the majority of people who raise issues have the same motivation. I know you won't agree, but I feel it's important that opinions be expressed without being subjected to peremptory dismissal.

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48 minutes ago, scass said:

I'm sorry you feel the need to reply with such an aggressive turn of phrase as "hot air." There has to some acceptance that opinions are opinions, and people are entitled to express them. For example - I can't give you any "proof" of my opinion that the team dynamic function is a poor addition to the game. But I think it is - it places undue weight on players' morale and relationships, and makes a lot of the game about that. You have only played the game for "double figures" hours, so I wouldn't;t expect you to have an opinion on that, but other people might.

And I'm sorry that you seem so haughty and completely incapable of hearing anyone disagree with you.

Maybe try reading what I posted again.  I never said you didn't have a right to complain.  I even said specifically that you can do it "all you like".  And calling posts with absolutely no backing complaining about bugs "hot air" isn't aggressive (have you ever been on the internet before?), it's fact.  I didn't think I'd need to explain why, but here goes...
You've got a factor of the game you think is "wrong", or bugged, or whatever.  You complain about it.  SI want to fix it, because obviously they do.  They don't particularly want a fault in the game, so they'll do what they can to fix it.  But what do they do with Johnny Poster coming on and saying "this is broken"?  What do they get out of it?  What part of that can they plug in to their development tools in order to fix it?  Absolutely nothing.  In fact, the post is less than nothing, because it points to an unhappy customer who is refusing to actually provide the means by which they could become a happy customer.  So aye, hot air.

54 minutes ago, scass said:

I'm not going to deliver a PKM, for the simple reason that it's not my job, and I would rather spend my time doing something else. That doesn't make any observations "hot air". 

And there it is.   The attitude you've shown with the "it's not my job" line hits it on the end.  That's fair enough.  I've probably raised 2 or 3 bug reports in all my time playing any edition of FM, because I don't want to spend my free time as well as my day job dealing with bugs.  I'll raise one, and have done, if it's so serious it stops me playing, but other than that I won't, knowing that I kind of forfeit any right to complain about it if I don't make any attempt to help actually fix it.  More people should realise that, rather than just throwing their hands up and complaining that SI can't hold onto a ball when they're holding it well out of their reach.

So it doesn't just make it hot air, it makes it willfully hot air.  Willfully knowing you're not contributing any help to fix something you want fixed.  Seems an appropriate use of time.

54 minutes ago, scass said:

Any complaints I make are because I want to play a better game. And I don't doubt that while there are posts which are venting, the majority of people who raise issues have the same motivation. I know you won't agree, but I feel it's important that opinions be expressed without being subjected to peremptory dismissal.

Again, lighten up a bit.  You can write a post complaining about something that expresses your opinion fine, but if it's complaining about a bug and doesn't give any sort of depth, either reproducible steps or a PKM/save, then from actually making improvements, there's nothing there to be dismissed.  Hence, hot air.

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1 hour ago, forameuss said:

And I'm sorry that you seem so haughty and completely incapable of hearing anyone disagree with you.

 

All I tried to do was suggest to you - civilly - that other people might have a different approach to you. 

@FrazT has asked that the bickering and personal digs stop. So, I'm withdrawing from this conversation with regret.

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Few moves from FM12. Not any gold collection, just work moments from typical game

They much better in my opinion, smarter and more consciously compared last versions.

I really want to take interface and feauters (like team hierarchy, no twitter) from FM 17/18 and use it in FM12.

Btw this really strange to have so nice ME in 2012 and little bit anarchy in 2018

Oh, and FM12 SO MUCH FASTER

Edited by Novem9

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45 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Few moves from FM12. Not any gold collection, just work moments from typical game

They much better in my opinion, smarter and more consciously compared last versions.

I really want to take interface and feauters (like team hierarchy, no twitter) from FM 17/18 and use it in FM12.

Btw this really strange to have so nice ME in 2012 and little bit anarchy in 2018

Oh, and FM12 SO MUCH FASTER

My favourite bit was when all the players literally ghosted through their opponents due to lack of collision detection.  That was well good.

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I was one of those who skipped FM 18 completely, having previously been a devoted pre-orderer of the game. I thought 17 only became a decent after the final patch and in the end the version has kept me happy. I looked at the 18 demo but couldn't get on with it.

I sympathize with the OP- there are certain 'quirks' that have been in the game for years (keepers pushing crosses over the bar/round the post 4 or 5 times a game for example) that I'm always disappointed to see return.

The core issue for me remains in the AI of players and seeing players do things routinely that just don't happen on a real football pitch. For example, my fullback gets pressured in his channel and rather than doing 'football 101' and putting it out of play if he doesn't have any options, he instead turns inside and punts it 30 yards into an open space in-front of my penalty box. Professional footballers have that beaten out of them from day one yet it is pretty regular in the FM 17 match engine.

Or having my team set to contain to see out a one goal lead and then noticing one of my three central defenders is taking an attacking thrown in level with my opponents penalty box, leaving just two men back. Doesn't make any sense.

There is also an issue of a lack of match engine variety- watching a game vs a Pulis managed West Brom doesn't look noticeably different in style to watching a Pep managed Man City. 

I understand it is complicated and there will be always be flaws or issues but too often what I'm watching doesn't really resemble actual football. There have certainly been steps forwards- someone mentioned players actually pulling the ball back rather than shooting from ridiculous angles for example- but it feels like the pace of it is too slow to justify £30 a year every year, especially when the major new features are just things that sound like they'll make the game more of a drag for me.

I might buy 19- I've learnt now to at least hold off until I've played the demo. But I'm hoping that having skipped a year the amount of change from 17-19 will make buying the new version feel justified.

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2 hours ago, forameuss said:

My favourite bit was when all the players literally ghosted through their opponents due to lack of collision detection.  That was well good.

I would have thought after all these years forameuss, you would have changed the record by now

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2 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would have thought after all these years forameuss, you would have changed the record by now

Seeing as it bothers you so much, I'll reiterate it.  People are fine to say it's more enjoyable - it probably was - but if you're ever comparing from a quality perspective, there is no comparison.  It wasn't in any way realistic, and expecting any new ME to be like that would be an incredible backwards step.

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40 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Seeing as it bothers you so much, I'll reiterate it.  People are fine to say it's more enjoyable - it probably was - but if you're ever comparing from a quality perspective, there is no comparison.  It wasn't in any way realistic, and expecting any new ME to be like that would be an incredible backwards step.

We are all very well aware that there was no collision detection in FM12 as well as other limitations, without you feeling the need to remind us whenever FM12 is mentioned

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3 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

We are all very well aware that there was no collision detection in FM12 as well as other limitations, without you feeling the need to remind us whenever FM12 is mentioned

So it's fine for people to post inaccuracies about how good it was, but not fine for someone to pull them up on it? 

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Not enjoyed 17 or 18. Had every version since the start of CM. I hope 19 gets me back into the game I used to love.

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59 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

So it's fine for people to post inaccuracies about how good it was, but not fine for someone to pull them up on it? 

Not at all, but exactly the same quote every time FM12 is mentioned just becomes a bore

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3 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Not at all, but exactly the same quote every time FM12 is mentioned just becomes a bore

So do the same complaints but that seems to be allowed...

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8 hours ago, forameuss said:

People are fine to say it's more enjoyable - it probably was - but if you're ever comparing from a quality perspective, there is no comparison. 

I know what you're trying to say here, but if you read that sentence back,it seems to suggest that making a game enjoyable to play is less important  than it satisfying some technical definition of "quality". That's something of a knot to tie the discussion up in, at best.

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I never stop being shocked by how so many people throws on the table how FM12 was good compared to latest releases. Putting aside any technical discussion, I just remember I gave it a go long time ago (like 2-3 years ago), just to watch how it looked after some years.

Unwatchable. The ball was flying high like an hot balloon just to fall down with improbable trajectories, sticking to a sticky pitch. The animation of players were animatronically animatronics and damn it was so easy to win. I think people loves it so much because they could win anything with zero effort. I used to make horrible tactics with no logic, but never forgot to place my DC on near post on corners.

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