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okereke

Inspiring Concepts #2 – Liverpool's Fluid System – IWBs & Central Wingers

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21 hours ago, okereke said:

Same as with the first quote, I hate to do stuff like the one you mention. I'd never play a super deep defensive block and close down a lot, because that may cause and over-stretched formation full of holes everywhere and people running out of position quite frequently. But here, seeing how the defensive pair of CBs and the HB/BWM were destroyed by long balls I wanted to keep them in place as deep and restrained as possible, while still trying to put pressure on the opposition's creative players to try and recover the ball quickly or at least force bad decisions at the start of their plays.

The fact both CBs are on Cover is related to what I already said. I know it may sound extreme, and it may change over time when I play more games against stronger teams and see how the pair works, but I just wanted to have two guys down there with restricted duties just focusing on defending.

I don't think you should be in trouble when using Standard mentality with normal D-Line, closing down, defend duty CBs and HB. I've never had problems with such set up even when I push up the D-line and use offside trap. And I use 2 WBs on Attack. For the record my CBs had 12/13 for pace and acceleration, though anticipation, concentration and positioning were at 14/15+.

I think the trick in your system is that it has a lot of moving parts during transitions. But I still think you have gone a little to the extreme with the deep line and covering duty. Even more interesting would be if you moved the IWBs to play from the WB positions. Use HB and watch the CBs split really wide.:D

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

I think the trick in your system is that it has a lot of moving parts during transitions. But I still think you have gone a little to the extreme with the deep line and covering duty. Even more interesting would be if you moved the IWBs to play from the WB positions. Use HB and watch the CBs split really wide.:D

What benefit does it have placing them in the WB strata? Less time getting into midfield? :)

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hace 23 horas, Swills417 dijo:

I switched to a variant of this tactic for the last 20 minutes of a EPL game the other night and was delighted with the results. I took of a number of senior players off and replaced them with u-23s. As Arsenal with Ben Sheaf playing as a Mezzela :lol: assisting a goal from Josh Da Silva as an inverted wingback lashing one in from the edge of the box. Also experienced the pitfalls of defending with being exposed to long ball and through balls in behind. Will see how it goes as a backup tactic when chasing a game or seeing out a dominating win. 

Awesome! As I have it now we're pretty solid defending as you can see by the results I posted yesterday. It seems like I have found the right balance in defense with the triangle of the CBs+BWM.

hace 18 horas, andymankc dijo:

I am still wondering why people try to complicate simple things. I am not saying that this is unsucesfull tactic but. Wide players go inside and central players go wide. Even this is the most succesfull tactic ever I am not going to use, because I think that this is pure using game in wrong way. 

I guess I prefer to do innovative and creative stuff while having fun and exploring some new ways to play the game than just download a pre-made tactic and press the spacebar ad infinitum to see my inbox full of "congratulations on winning the cup again!". Personal taste.

hace 17 horas, Analog dijo:

What's the right way to use the game?  :lol:  He's having a bit of fun and being creative with ideas.  

Curious about that 4-1-2-2-1 though.  Two IF's and then two MEZ on attack through the middle.  In my experience the Mez on attack was the aggressive CM role I was always looking for in FM.  He gets really far forward, but I also noticed they seem to make fairly early runs.  With two IF's and two MEZ I'd be worried you just have everyone single file on the edge of the area.  Are you getting good movement?

To me, the problem is not the MEZ not going forward (they do and pretty well) but rather wide, kind of overlapping the IFs. That is where it gets tricky, because the ME was not build to allow that kind of movement. So yes, what you mention happens sometimes (both a MEZ and a IF getting close to each other in the same area), and also it is often that you see the IF getting wide and the MEZ more on the inside part of the pitch. Not that is bad and doesn't produce results, which are there, but definitely not how I want the system to play.

hace 16 horas, westy8chimp dijo:

@okereke i haven't kept up with the thread as much as id have liked because your images don't show on my work laptop... but in line with my previous statement... I'd go as far as to add, you should try wb/IWB with underlap if you haven't already... carnage.

using the Barca example, wasn't that unusual to see Iniesta wider than the Inside forward who would run central, but also Alba performing underlap to cross from the byline within or on the edge of the box.

Yes I'm already using underlapping movements to keep IWBs on the inside areas of the pitch while MEZs and IFs get or start the play at wider positions. Definitely a great shape and movement is generated and the combinations are wonderful and work tremendously.

hace 7 horas, Old Scouser Tommy dijo:

It's not making a joke of the game. I think you're being unfair there. @okereke has developed a style of play which is winning football matches. Winning matches is about exploiting weaknesses in an opponents tactical system and taking advantage of those weaknesses. His system is doing that and he deserves credit for implementing his style of play and winning games. There is no right or wrong way to play the game only differing opinions as to 'how' it is played. Every manager has a way they want there teams to play.

If you haven't seen any teams play in this way, using Inverted Fullbacks tucking in allowing Central Midfielders to move into wide areas and Wingers/Inside Forwards coming inside I'm not sure what you've been watching. Pep Guardiola's Man City side do this to great affect. Sane especially starts very wide but is often on the end of crosses and through balls from De Bruyne who is a central player but has moved wide to occupy half spaces. His fullback will then tuck in to provide cover in the area he has vacated. It's quite simple and like @westy8chimp and others have explained it creates passing triangles which in turn create space and essentially goalscoring chances. Coutinho at Livepool would at times start centrally and drift wide to allow Mane to come inside. Iniesta at Barceona would also drift into wide areas from a central starting position and create these passing triangles with fullbacks and wide forwards or wingers. This is not a new thing and is probably quite difficult to get right on FM. I'm using Inverted Wingbacks at the moment actually and I really like how it gives me cover in central areas but still gives me width. My leftback actually has 4 goals in 9 games at the start of the season for Benevento playing as an Inverted Wingback.

@okereke I like how your system looks and you're having good results with it. Reading the thread I know you've put a lot of work and thought into it and now reaping the rewards. I'm really interested to see how it continues.

Thanks. I'm definitely not trying to create some kind of "unstoppably-demonic" tactic with these Inspiring Concept threads. I just thought about having some fun doing new stuff and focusing on somewhat "little" things (the use of IWBs, the creation of the Central Winger, the use of a free-movement trio on a strikerless system, and what is yet to come...) rather than playing the casual same old game we all do every year without squeezing the game.

Glad you're liking it!

hace 2 horas, yonko dijo:

I don't think you should be in trouble when using Standard mentality with normal D-Line, closing down, defend duty CBs and HB. I've never had problems with such set up even when I push up the D-line and use offside trap. And I use 2 WBs on Attack. For the record my CBs had 12/13 for pace and acceleration, though anticipation, concentration and positioning were at 14/15+.

I think the trick in your system is that it has a lot of moving parts during transitions. But I still think you have gone a little to the extreme with the deep line and covering duty. Even more interesting would be if you moved the IWBs to play from the WB positions. Use HB and watch the CBs split really wide.:D

Believe me, that game against MTK was incredibly frustrating so I made changes and I don't know, they're working nicely now and we're pretty solid back in defense, so I'm happy for now. Wait until we reach the first knockout round of the EL and get crushed by some big team though haha

There is definitely a lot of movement and variation in positions. Keep in mind that no less than 6 players start at a point that ultimately changes (IWBs to CM, MEZ to W, IFs to F) so that really causes problems for the opposition who often get lost into who to cover and leaves doors open to crosses or through-balls that make for clear chances in the area.

I used the HB at first, but having the CBs split too wide caused a lot of trouble while defending long balls because they found it hard to recover and track back in time, that's why I changed the DM position to a BWM role. That way I keep a defensive triangle that holds the position vertically and that doesn't get too wide, so we avoid problems getting back.

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