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FrazT

What is the point of setting an asking price?

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I would welcome some thoughts on the above question. 

I am currently playing in the SPL, had a couple of good European runs and successful domestically.  I have a 28-year-old French striker, who has scored at the rate of a goal a game, current French international, 2.5 years left on his contract, happy and not asked to leave or transfer listed.  His in-game value is £18m and with a couple of clubs sniffing around, my AM suggests setting his asking price to a realistic level.  I dont want to lose him and it would take an enormous bid for there to be any interest in selling him, as the team is strong financially, so I set it to £50m. ( I already sold a successful striker for £30m)

Man City have just come in with a bid of £10.7m up front, £3.9m in instalments and £4.3m after 50 appearances- so I might get just over his in-game value after about 2 years!  Of course, his agent has indicated that he wants to talk to Man City so I know who the first knock on the door will be after I rejected it.

Please explain what the AI logic is in this case.  We are often told that we won't be able to sell for value if we transfer list a player and we will need to pay well over the odds for a player who is not for sale, so why does the AI bid at such a ludicrous level, after having set an asking price?  If it was a realistic bid, I might try to negotiate but this is just not even close.

So, what is the point of setting an asking price if the AI totally disregards it?

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42 minutes ago, FrazT said:

I would welcome some thoughts on the above question. 

I am currently playing in the SPL, had a couple of good European runs and successful domestically.  I have a 28-year-old French striker, who has scored at the rate of a goal a game, current French international, 2.5 years left on his contract, happy and not asked to leave or transfer listed.  His in-game value is £18m and with a couple of clubs sniffing around, my AM suggests setting his asking price to a realistic level.  I dont want to lose him and it would take an enormous bid for there to be any interest in selling him, as the team is strong financially, so I set it to £50m. ( I already sold a successful striker for £30m)

Man City have just come in with a bid of £10.7m up front, £3.9m in instalments and £4.3m after 50 appearances- so I might get just over his in-game value after about 2 years!  Of course, his agent has indicated that he wants to talk to Man City so I know who the first knock on the door will be after I rejected it.

Please explain what the AI logic is in this case.  We are often told that we won't be able to sell for value if we transfer list a player and we will need to pay well over the odds for a player who is not for sale, so why does the AI bid at such a ludicrous level, after having set an asking price?  If it was a realistic bid, I might try to negotiate but this is just not even close.

So, what is the point of setting an asking price if the AI totally disregards it?

1. The real life mechanics Being Logical We always starts at low price and see how they react. Then depending on our need and / or requirement for future we increase it. So this way it seems right and working as it should

2. The Game mechanics : I think its most important we are missing is that Taking your current example of AM suggesting price, we can't discuss with the Respective player and his agent to agree with those money before they can think of leaving. If and when the "I want to leave to said club" from Player conversation starts , they at most of time wont let to have more than their original value Give or take 5-10 Millions at max on average by saying "you meant fair offer "and almost lock you to the value dictated by agent , you are forced agree for them. For players higher than the age of 31 they would always ask for less money than their worth suggests. 

3. The Marketing strategy : I think this is where the area player has a definitive advantage  but also disadvantage as he can build to his liking but the problem is AI unable to do so and they buy players for same position despite having players already. So if big team Comes to call him the player wouldn't think of other aspects like his game time and he just want to leave because they had strong squad. Thus the unsettling aspect is done and working easily and the agent / player wont go for higher money and stop you at said point 2. 

I think what we need is to have a more than current approach in conversations with player or better allowing to have a conversation with his agent so that we can tell them unless they wont meet the said demands they can forget about transfer. Ofcourse this will likely cause rifts or Dembele (BVB) kind of problems but that's way it is. If we had Dembele situation in game he wouldn't surely go for 130+ M$ he would go for some thing like what ever his at that time current contract suggests + give or take 5-10 Mil. 

For now though transfers are only done by agent dictated price thus AI bidding for less money than expected. I made a funny test a while ago at start of 18 release time when playing as United and used IGE to put release clause of 41.5M $ for dybala only to activate for my self and disable it as soon as Juventus accepted it to see how the others react. Minutes later i got the Message of PSG bid for dybala of 43.5M$ with addon's making it to 49.5M$, whilst his worth is 94M$. confirmed me back then that its Agent dictated that price as i made the bid for 41.5 M$ got accepted so the others shouldn't need more than that despite his worth is saying other wise.

Sorry for long write up 

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At the moment, the player and his agent havent been involved, so the query is about how the AI is thinking.  Of course, I appreciate that they are going to start low and maybe work up- my point is that when they are not even starting at his game value and offering about a quarter of his asking price, that does not a[pear to have any logic in it.

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Just now, FrazT said:

At the moment, the player and his agent havent been involved, so the query is about how the AI is thinking.  Of course, I appreciate that they are going to start low and maybe work up- my point is that when they are not even starting at his game value and offering about a quarter of his asking price, that does not a[pear to have any logic in it.

Ah I thought the agent knocked your door, In that case its the mismatch of AI valuation vs our Team's AI(AM/ DOF / Chief scout) valuation. I feel the Agent goes to clubs and offers his player to said value and AI always makes a bid around the Agent offered value.  The other thing apart from the above stated scenario might be they want player but not too interested given they are looking at others so they tried put a bid at low price to see whether it works or not. If team rejects it then the Wanted by club will disappear if there is only one club want him or if multiple clubs want him the said club will disappear as they shift their focus else where.

Though I would like some info on what the AI considers as right valuation for them before making the offer too.

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I've had plenty of AI clubs match my asking price, so it's not a case of them ignoring it every time.

In this case, Fraz, I think your asking price isn't realistic. You've done well to sell a striker for ­£30m, which I'm sure is a transfer record in Scotland. For this player, you've put another 60-odd percent on top of the record fee. City knows it's not a realistic price, so they won't care about it. And they are in a position to low-ball you, because they are trying to get the player unsettled so he can try and force a move.

Have a look here: https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/transferrekorde/wettbewerb/SC1/saison_id/alle/land_id/alle/ausrichtung//spielerposition_id//altersklasse//leihe//w_s//zuab/ab/plus/1

I'm assuming that's correct as it's transfermarkt and looking at that, the most expensive transfer involving a Scottish club is a mere 15,70 Mill. €.

As I said, I think you've done quite well to have sold a player for £30m.

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13 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I've had plenty of AI clubs match my asking price, so it's not a case of them ignoring it every time.

In this case, Fraz, I think your asking price isn't realistic. You've done well to sell a striker for ­£30m, which I'm sure is a transfer record in Scotland. For this player, you've put another 60-odd percent on top of the record fee. City knows it's not a realistic price, so they won't care about it. And they are in a position to low-ball you, because they are trying to get the player unsettled so he can try and force a move.

Have a look here: https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/transferrekorde/wettbewerb/SC1/saison_id/alle/land_id/alle/ausrichtung//spielerposition_id//altersklasse//leihe//w_s//zuab/ab/plus/1

I'm assuming that's correct as it's transfermarkt and looking at that, the most expensive transfer involving a Scottish club is a mere 15,70 Mill. €.

As I said, I think you've done quite well to have sold a player for £30m.

Then it brings the question why his AM says the 50M is realistic in first place , Did he said that because he was most Valued player in the club not considering the league they are in?. A question is what sort of things AI will look into before making a bid. 

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19 minutes ago, ferrarinseb said:

Then it brings the question why his AM says the 50M is realistic in first place ,

Fraz didn't mention that the assistant suggested that valuation. It sounded more like he decided this himself. I agree that if the assistant did suggest this, that it's too much, IMO.

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The AM suggested that the asking price is set, but I set it.  I agree that if you look at the Scottish market in isolation, the figure I set it at is unrealistic, but I also look at what my scouts tell me that I need to pay to replace him ( and that ranges up to £120M ) then, whilst I might be prepared to accept a lower figure, I still think that the AI offer is ridiculously low.  I have rejected the offer and I bet you that Man City come back with an offer about £500,000 more and still nowhere near a figure that any manager will entertain.  I see that they would want to low-ball me, but surely offers should be in the range to tempt and not anger?

I also fail to understand why the AI thinks that they are matching an in-game value when they put clauses for appearances and international caps in the offer to make it up to the value.  Neither of these clauses are in any way guaranteed.

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Nailed it!

2 days before the end of the window, Man City have come back with £11.0m, £3.7m and £4.3m, totalling the exact same figure that I rejected a week ago.  Do they really think that I would now accept the same offer?.  Interestingly the player didn't react to the first rejection.  Watch this space

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Those situations are annoying. I understand the low-balling to try and unsettle the player, but to not increase the bid (or move on) when their plan didn't work, isn't what I'd deem normal behaviour.

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This is fun- counting down the transfer window in the last day, Man City have just bid £6.2, £1.6 and £1.8 total £9.6m for my other striker, who is in the exact same contract situation and is valued at £18m.

After that one was rejected, they have been back with 2 more offers for the first guy, now up to £29m. still rejected but the window isnt shut yet.:)

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The accuracy of the AI bids seems directly related to the league's reputation. Currently in England I have set asking prices of €70m for a €40m valued striker and, though the first bids were in the region of the player value, they quickly increase if I reject them them and say the reason is 'the offer isn't good enough".

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Final update- no more bids for the 2 forwards and not a peep so far from either of them.  Bayern came in just before the window closed and bid 2.5 times his game value for a 20-year-old Portuguese wonderkid- where does that logic come from?

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3 hours ago, FrazT said:

At the moment, the player and his agent havent been involved, so the query is about how the AI is thinking.  Of course, I appreciate that they are going to start low and maybe work up- my point is that when they are not even starting at his game value and offering about a quarter of his asking price, that does not a[pear to have any logic in it.

 

1 hour ago, FrazT said:

I also fail to understand why the AI thinks that they are matching an in-game value when they put clauses for appearances and international caps in the offer to make it up to the value.  Neither of these clauses are in any way guaranteed.

That's the thing though @FrazT as far as the AI are concerned they have matched the in-game value because the game recognises it as such.

I've recently had a CB who wanted to go to Barca as they were interested in him, I said he could go providing they matched an offer of £82m (he was valued at £62m, so it didn't seem unreasonable). Couple of days later, Barca bid £50m upfront, with another £15m in payments (total guaranteed fee of £65m) and then added various instalments (including winning the CL) that brought the total to £82m. I rejected this offer because in my eyes, this doesn't match the asking price because there is no guarantee that all extras will be met (I'm pretty sure Barca added one for goals too, which for a CB is shocking). So I reject, player is unhappy so I end up selling him for even less than that to Barca because the game recognises it as matching the value.

This is something that I feel SI need to improve about the game.

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7 minutes ago, FrazT said:

Final update- no more bids for the 2 forwards and not a peep so far from either of them.  Bayern came in just before the window closed and bid 2.5 times his game value for a 20-year-old Portuguese wonderkid- where does that logic come from?

This, to me appears to be a case of supply and demand.

Maybe City have plenty of strikers and there are many targets they are looking at so they don't need to spend ridiculous amounts. Maybe Bayern really need this player to cover a position they don't have and there aren't many options available to them. 

Also, younger players (wonderkids especially) tend to go for more as you're mainly paying for their potential.

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1 hour ago, Neotropolis said:

 

That's the thing though @FrazT as far as the AI are concerned they have matched the in-game value because the game recognises it as such.

I've recently had a CB who wanted to go to Barca as they were interested in him, I said he could go providing they matched an offer of £82m (he was valued at £62m, so it didn't seem unreasonable). Couple of days later, Barca bid £50m upfront, with another £15m in payments (total guaranteed fee of £65m) and then added various instalments (including winning the CL) that brought the total to £82m. I rejected this offer because in my eyes, this doesn't match the asking price because there is no guarantee that all extras will be met (I'm pretty sure Barca added one for goals too, which for a CB is shocking). So I reject, player is unhappy so I end up selling him for even less than that to Barca because the game recognises it as matching the value.

This is something that I feel SI need to improve about the game.

I have raised this before with SI -in my view , if they want to match the asking price or in-game value, the offer has to be with guaranteed payments.  Clauses after 50 games or 10 international appearances etc look nice but could be unobtainable if the player gets injured.

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34 minutes ago, FrazT said:

I have raised this before with SI -in my view , if they want to match the asking price or in-game value, the offer has to be with guaranteed payments.  Clauses after 50 games or 10 international appearances etc look nice but could be unobtainable if the player gets injured.

It's not just that, if the player doesn't work out in the team, he doesn't play and gets sent elsewhere. You then lose out on that 'promised money'. The competition ones are a bit better because you can still get them even if the player doesn't play or moves on later.

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I feel like the players have far too much power in FM18 for stuff like this. They make the demands (like asking to get a transfer or talk to a certain club) and if you refuse they start playing like trash and bring half the team down with them... because the rest of the team doesn't agree with your valuation either.

My other favourite (not) is - a player signs for 3 to 5 years, and agree's to a minimum release fee clause of xxx, and within 6-12 months a bid comes in nowhere near that clause. Player wants to talk to the new club and gets all angsty when I decline. It's like "Mate, you signed the min release clause about 5 minutes ago. Of course we're still expecting that kind of money for you in the short term. After a few years maybe the scenario changes." 

Edited by Butlee

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I have a well-known young Dutch CB at Liverpool in 2022, he has 4 years remaining on his key player contract, on huge wages, and is very happy playing for the reigning champions. His in-game market value is £66m.

Oil-rich Man City make a non-negotiable bid of £40m up-front plus some clauses that aren't guaranteed, to bring the offer up to £55m. I reject. CB wants a new contract. I also reject. CB unhappy.

Man City make a new bid; identical to the old (offensively low). I reject.

Man City make a new bid, again identical to the previous two. What are they hoping to achieve? :D  

Window closes, CB says he realises his contract is more than good enough and is no longer unhappy. 

Edited by ..Valhalla..

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23 minutes ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

I have a well-known young Dutch CB at Liverpool in 2022, he has 4 years remaining on his key player contract, on huge wages, and is very happy playing for the reigning champions. His in-game market value is £66m.

Oil-rich Man City make a non-negotiable bid of £40m up-front plus some clauses that aren't guaranteed, to bring the offer up to £55m. I reject. CB wants a new contract. I also reject. CB unhappy.

Man City make a new bid; identical to the old (offensively low). I reject.

Man City make a new bid, again identical to the previous two. What are they hoping to achieve? :D  

Window closes, CB says he realises his contract is more than good enough and is no longer unhappy. 

This is almost identical to my scenario- the continuous offering of virtually identical bids that have been rejected is nonsensical.

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@FrazT would definitely be worth copying this entire thread to the bugs section. I don't think it's a bug, but it's far from good logical behaviour, even accounting for the clubs trying to insidiously unsettle the player ( speaking of which, were there any public declarations of interest from city, or any bug media speculation?)

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

@FrazT would definitely be worth copying this entire thread to the bugs section. I don't think it's a bug, but it's far from good logical behaviour, even accounting for the clubs trying to insidiously unsettle the player ( speaking of which, were there any public declarations of interest from city, or any bug media speculation?)

There was one media report after the first bid was knocked back but that speculated that it would take a bid of £17m to buy him, which is still miles away from the asking price.  I have reported this type of AI transfer behaviour in the last 2 versions and in truth, it does not appear to be any better.  Ridiculous bids for players who are not unhappy or transfer listed and repeated identical bids have been around for several versions.  My assertion is that if you don't set an asking price, then any bid can and should be made.  If, however, you set an asking price, this should send a signal to the AI that this player is not for sale unless you blow me away with a bid that I can't refuse- not one that doesn't even match his in-game value.  Maybe the original offer is not a bug and is just an unsettling tactic, but the continuous identical bids surely is and would not happen.

The ME subforum in the Bugs forum is unsupported, so I am not sure what benefit there will be in posting there, although I appreciate the suggestion.

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1 minute ago, FrazT said:

There was one media report after the first bid was knocked back but that speculated that it would take a bid of £17m to buy him, which is still miles away from the asking price.  I have reported this type of AI transfer behaviour in the last 2 versions and in truth, it does not appear to be any better.  Ridiculous bids for players who are not unhappy or transfer listed and repeated identical bids have been around for several versions.  My assertion is that if you don't set an asking price, then any bid can and should be made.  If, however, you set an asking price, this should send a signal to the AI that this player is not for sale unless you blow me away with a bid that I can't refuse- not one that doesn't even match his in-game value.  Maybe the original offer is not a bug and is just an unsettling tactic, but the continuous identical bids surely is and would not happen.

The ME subforum in the Bugs forum is unsupported, so I am not sure what benefit there will be in posting there, although I appreciate the suggestion.

Going to drop you a DM 

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1 hour ago, FrazT said:

This is almost identical to my scenario- the continuous offering of virtually identical bids that have been rejected is nonsensical.

And my example cannot be explained away by league/club reputation. We are in the same league as Man City, are the current champions, and are of higher reputation in world football as a club. Plus City are stinking rich and to offer such a pittance and make it non-negotiable is downright absurd. The CB in question (not naming him but I'm sure you know) is now HG at club, is a shoe-in first team player when fit, waaaay off his peak years still (22yrs old), and as a comparison I sold a less valuable VVD to PSG for £100m last season.

2 things really annoy me about buying and selling players:

  • AI teams massively overvaluing their own players
  • AI teams massively undervaluing ours

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5 hours ago, FrazT said:

There was one media report after the first bid was knocked back but that speculated that it would take a bid of £17m to buy him, which is still miles away from the asking price.  I have reported this type of AI transfer behaviour in the last 2 versions and in truth, it does not appear to be any better.  Ridiculous bids for players who are not unhappy or transfer listed and repeated identical bids have been around for several versions.  My assertion is that if you don't set an asking price, then any bid can and should be made.  If, however, you set an asking price, this should send a signal to the AI that this player is not for sale unless you blow me away with a bid that I can't refuse- not one that doesn't even match his in-game value.  Maybe the original offer is not a bug and is just an unsettling tactic, but the continuous identical bids surely is and would not happen.

The ME subforum in the Bugs forum is unsupported, so I am not sure what benefit there will be in posting there, although I appreciate the suggestion.

That sounds like the AI has assigned a sale-value of £17m to the player as I've found the values in the media reports to be fairly accurate when you are after an AI player, but this seems to have become disconnected from the shown value - If you flipped it and the AI were Rangers they'd likely accept a £17m bid as that is what the AI has determined is an acceptable sale value for him, one thing you could try doing is adding a manager to City and then scout the player to see what value is listed as I'd expect the scout report to say he'll cost ~£17m rather than the £50m you set (assuming the game treats scouting human players the same as it does AI).

The other problem is that the game tends to struggle when you have built up a team in a smaller country to a level where they don't need money and expect to keep their better players, as in a normal situation Rangers wouldn't really be a in a position to reject that kind of money even if it wasn't much over his value.

It should also be something that the AI in Scotland would have to deal with as well - I've just had a quick look in my game and Celtic have been able to sell players for £25m+ and at the moment they have a couple of ~£15m rated players with Rangers having a couple rated at ~£12m and playing as a Four Star English Prem side making offers for any of these players and just using the suggest terms button results in a counter of somewhere between £20m-£30m which after a couple of rounds can be brought down to £15m-£20m so I expect with a determined effort I'd be able to sign most if not all of them for not much past their values (well there is one guy they wanted £40m for but even he was talked down to £25m) whilst the lower rated players I tried could be had for their value, about the only players Rangers will fight to keep are their kids starting their demands at £16m for several of them, whilst Celtic are happy to let most go for under £1m (however I haven't scouted them so I don't know if Rangers just have better kids that are worth demanding more for).

And as others have said there are other factors in play;

- How good is the player, is he likely to be a starter for City or do they just need a squad player, if he's a squad player then they'll take a chance for £20m but aren't going to pay £50m for him. Though at 28 he seems a weird player for them to be after, as no offence to your side but he doesn't sound like a World Class player who'd be a starter and if he was you'd have loads of teams after him which should push up the price.

- The initial bid is likely to see your response and to upset the player, City are the bigger side so are hoping to upset your player to force you to sell him.

- How do you respond to the bids, are you just rejecting them out of hand (and if so with which response - selecting the bid not enough option should generally see them come back with bigger bids) or negotiating them upwards - depending on how serious teams are you can sometimes push up the bids quite a lot or they'll withdraw and look elsewhere, looks like you managed to get them to offer £29m later but was this you negotiating the bid up or just their opening bid that you rejected.

- FFP rules can also play a part especially if they are using options that won't kick in until after the first season, obviously it's a little silly on the surface for City to struggle raising £20m upfront, but what is their other spending like if they have spent big elsewhere they may only have that amount left to spend.

- For receiving the same bid each time, this can sometimes be due to memory limitations in the game, it can only store the history of failed bids for so long and after this the game 'forgets' the rejected bids and starts the cycle again, though this tends to affect long term repeated bids i.e. getting the same bid at the start of every transfer window, rather than bids in the same window.

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@michaeltmurrayuk   Thanks for your long and detailed reply- as usual full of salient points.:thup:

I fully accept that the situation at the club is not standard for Scottish football and that may cause some issues with AI perception.  The club is now rich ( buy cheap and sell high ) so I dont need the money- hence the high asking price.  Buying clubs must surely know the finances of the selling club and that the asking price is giving out a very clear message.

I have had a look at the Man City squad and it is surprisingly thin- I would say that my player would be the third or fourth rated ST, so maybe not a given starter.  He still has some leeway on his PA, according to the coach report.

Regarding the bids- if the starting bid is worth considering, I will reject with an answer.  If, as in this case, the bid was derisory, I reject it without comment.  Man City made 4 bids over a week, without any negotiations from me and only the last one offered a guaranteed figure over his in-game value.  The first 2 bids were the same figure, which frankly is ridiculous- why would I accept such a low bid today when I rejected the same bid out of hand 2 days ago?

There are no FFP issues that I can see with Man City and they are well below their transfer budget.

I suppose it all boils down to my original question- why set an asking price if the AI managers take absolutely no notice of it and make continued similar bids well short of that figure, despite regular rejection.

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The only reason I ever set an asking price was to link with player interactions on sales, other than that it had no use as the AI does not seem to see the value the user sets when doing their transfer bid assessements.

Certainly something for SI to work on for future versions.

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23 hours ago, FrazT said:

My assertion is that if you don't set an asking price, then any bid can and should be made.  If, however, you set an asking price, this should send a signal to the AI that this player is not for sale unless you blow me away with a bid that I can't refuse- not one that doesn't even match his in-game value. 

Funny, I always thought it was the other way round? No asking price means that you're not looking to sell and it would need to be big to tempt you. Having an asking price means that you would be open to selling the player for the right price but not as desperate as offering the player out. In this case, the asking price is your starting negotiation for any clubs interested.

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I have a team full of home grown wonder kids, so i've had to get good at this.

First thing, ignore all offers.

It will be 2 or 3 weeks before you're forced to give an answer, a big chunk of the transfer window.

Never reject, always negotiate, set a non negotiable offer to a level you know they will not pay I.e. they offer £20m, ask for £50m. They will withdraw bid.

Rinse and repeat until the window closes.

Never lost a player doing this. They dont react or get upset.

Only issue is when they make non negotiable offers, you are forced to reject or if the player runs down his contract, both rare.

Asking price is academic, they ignore it and offer sub market value anyway.

Edited by Mr U Rosler

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On 27/08/2018 at 06:03, HUNT3R said:

I've had plenty of AI clubs match my asking price, so it's not a case of them ignoring it every time.

In this case, Fraz, I think your asking price isn't realistic. You've done well to sell a striker for ­£30m, which I'm sure is a transfer record in Scotland. For this player, you've put another 60-odd percent on top of the record fee. City knows it's not a realistic price, so they won't care about it. And they are in a position to low-ball you, because they are trying to get the player unsettled so he can try and force a move.

Have a look here: https://www.transfermarkt.com/scottish-premiership/transferrekorde/wettbewerb/SC1/saison_id/alle/land_id/alle/ausrichtung//spielerposition_id//altersklasse//leihe//w_s//zuab/ab/plus/1

I'm assuming that's correct as it's transfermarkt and looking at that, the most expensive transfer involving a Scottish club is a mere 15,70 Mill. €.

As I said, I think you've done quite well to have sold a player for £30m.

Many people have said to me once you press continue on the first day of your save the game stops mirroring real life. This could be many years in the future and to me £50m seems reasonable if that's what he's going to have to spend to replace the player. 

I had a star midfielder for my Luton team valued at £30m. I set the asking price at £75m as that's roughly what I was going to have to spend to get a similar replacement. Arsenal consistently bid £30, and I consistently said no. In the end the player got upset and I had to accept a bid, in the end from United for £45m.

Luton's record transfer free received is nowhere near that, so obviously nothing is realistic, but then it is a game.

The player had 4 years left on his contact with me. Signed for United, had 5 years left and his wagers went from £100k pw to £250k. His value went from £20m to £80m just off that transfer. United play in all the same competitions Luton do (in game, obvs) and only finished 2 points ahead of me last year. Does that really transfer really make him £50m more expensive?

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7 minutes ago, HemHat said:

Many people have said to me once you press continue on the first day of your save the game stops mirroring real life. This could be many years in the future and to me £50m seems reasonable if that's what he's going to have to spend to replace the player. 

I had a star midfielder for my Luton team valued at £30m. I set the asking price at £75m as that's roughly what I was going to have to spend to get a similar replacement. Arsenal consistently bid £30, and I consistently said no. In the end the player got upset and I had to accept a bid, in the end from United for £45m.

Luton's record transfer free received is nowhere near that, so obviously nothing is realistic, but then it is a game.

The player had 4 years left on his contact with me. Signed for United, had 5 years left and his wagers went from £100k pw to £250k. His value went from £20m to £80m just off that transfer. United play in all the same competitions Luton do (in game, obvs) and only finished 2 points ahead of me last year. Does that really transfer really make him £50m more expensive?

The big difference is that Fraz is managing in Scotland while you're in England.

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17 hours ago, FrazT said:

@michaeltmurrayuk   Thanks for your long and detailed reply- as usual full of salient points.:thup:

I fully accept that the situation at the club is not standard for Scottish football and that may cause some issues with AI perception.  The club is now rich ( buy cheap and sell high ) so I dont need the money- hence the high asking price.  Buying clubs must surely know the finances of the selling club and that the asking price is giving out a very clear message.

I have had a look at the Man City squad and it is surprisingly thin- I would say that my player would be the third or fourth rated ST, so maybe not a given starter.  He still has some leeway on his PA, according to the coach report.

Regarding the bids- if the starting bid is worth considering, I will reject with an answer.  If, as in this case, the bid was derisory, I reject it without comment.  Man City made 4 bids over a week, without any negotiations from me and only the last one offered a guaranteed figure over his in-game value.  The first 2 bids were the same figure, which frankly is ridiculous- why would I accept such a low bid today when I rejected the same bid out of hand 2 days ago?

There are no FFP issues that I can see with Man City and they are well below their transfer budget.

I suppose it all boils down to my original question- why set an asking price if the AI managers take absolutely no notice of it and make continued similar bids well short of that figure, despite regular rejection.

When buying players teams/players seem to have an idea of your budget - there seems to be too many times when teams don't want to sell they'll pick a figure just outside of my budget, whilst players seem to demand more when you have an excess wage budget.

For the AI ignoring the asking price I expect one reason is to stop human managers putting silly figures on their players to discourage AI bids, though the game does seem to have some understanding of human set asking prices, a few versions back players would complain if you set a silly asking price (not sure if this is still in or has been replaced by the chat bit) and currently one of the options when chatting to an unhappy player is the option to suggest an acceptable fee which they can counter and as far as I can tell the AI does seem to honour this value (I have a player who for a couple of years was scouted by Arsenal and Spurs and he'd kick up a fuss about wanting to join them, got him to accept an acceptable value but the teams never actually bided for him, even though due to our poor reputation his in-game value was very low compared to the asking price so was fully expecting low ball offers).

Did your Assistant suggest a value when you set it, or come back later (if you have the backroom advice on then can suggest you change the amount).

I expect the first two bids were City testing the waters - it seems they want a squad Striker and the AI will generally identify several targets (which is why you'll sometimes see a team is interested in your player but never bids as they are also looking at other players, as evidenced by them also trying for your other striker) so they make an opening offer to see what response they get, they get a rejection and then come back in later with the same bid in the hopes that the player has kicked up a fuss and you are now willing to talk, you reject that and they move to other targets but cannot get them so come to you with a better offer, I expect if you'd negotiated the offers you'd possibly get somewhere between the £30m they finally offered and the £50m value you set or they'd pull out and target someone else (likely your other striker ;)) especially if the player didn't kick up a fuss, there could also be other things going on in the background his agent could have offered him out after you rejected the first bid, whilst their scout report could have given a fee range of £15m-£50m so they'd start on the low side before increasing their bid to meet you somewhere in the middle.

I'd say if you still have a save game from just before the bids came it, it might still be worth uploading it and logging it in the bugs forum so SI can check the AI logic as whilst it's too late for FM18 it might still be useful for FM19, considering these situations are likely hard to test and more examples can only be better.

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If it's a player I don't want to sell and can't replace, I'll set the asking price very high.

If it's a player I don't want to sell but could replace with some effort/expense, I'll set the asking price roughly 25% above what I'll accept.

If it's a player I don't want to sell but who could be replaced relatively easily, I'll set the asking price roughly 10-15% above what I'll accept.

Anyone else, I just respond to bids as and when they come in.

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If you were being cynical, you could say that Man City offered that much money because they know it's sufficient to cause the player and his agent to pressure you into an eventual sale.

But I would imagine the problem is that—like so much else in FM—this system depends upon the creaking Reputation system that hasn't seen a significant overhaul in any version of CM/FM I can recall.

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A lot of good points have been made, but I think it comes down to this: If both teams had been controlled by the AI, the City bids would have been accepted. The game doesn't treat your club any different because you are human, and in this case AI logic keeps returning to "this bid is enough to get the player".

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As a postscript to this, I can report that the transfer window has closed and surprisingly, neither of my 2 strikers has raised any issue with the rejected bids, so we move on.

@michaeltmurrayuk My AM did not input at any point to the asking price set as I set it and there has been no comment from him at all.

 

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Just to thank all those that replied- it was good to have a reasoned discussion without the rants.  Still not really sure that I understand the AI logic but it was good to get the feedback and thoughts of others:thup:

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Just a final update as we start the next transfer window.  my striker's in-game value has gone up to £28M and guess who is back in with multiple bids, none of which have matched his in-game value, never mind his asking price, which I have left.  They did make one offer that could have gone over his in-game value but after rejection, came back 3 days later with a bid about £2M lower!!  The striker and his agent are now unhappy and I suspect that I might have to negotiate a price for him eventually.

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On 27/08/2018 at 09:44, Neotropolis said:

I've recently had a CB who wanted to go to Barca as they were interested in him, I said he could go providing they matched an offer of £82m (he was valued at £62m, so it didn't seem unreasonable). Couple of days later, Barca bid £50m upfront, with another £15m in payments (total guaranteed fee of £65m) and then added various instalments (including winning the CL) that brought the total to £82m. I rejected this offer because in my eyes, this doesn't match the asking price because there is no guarantee that all extras will be met (I'm pretty sure Barca added one for goals too, which for a CB is shocking). So I reject, player is unhappy so I end up selling him for even less than that to Barca because the game recognises it as matching the value.

This is something that I feel SI need to improve about the game.

And that's why no one should take chances with the Promises system. It's more efficient to tell the player to shove it since they'll go Unhappy anyway. At least you have the freedom to do whatever you want unlike when you're bound to a promise. The Dynamics section is something I don't even bother with: if I want to keep a player, it's a five years contract. If he wants to leave, he leaves when I say so; no exceptions allowed. The only thing that could curb that process is if the chairman has high Interference. It's sad that being a dictator works better or at least, just as well as previous iterations even though the Dynamics system was designed to help with monitoring your squad.

One thing pointed out earlier is indeed that, and it's visible in the pre-game Editor, countries have set values for transfers per reputation. And it's particularly painful if you're in a smaller country. Even though you've raised the reputation of the league and the reputation of your club, the new values are still indexed on the base value set in the database. That's also why Gibraltar's TV money skyrocketed when you would raise the Reputation of the league.

Edited by BMNJohn

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2 hours ago, BMNJohn said:

 

One thing pointed out earlier is indeed that, and it's visible in the pre-game Editor, countries have set values for transfers per reputation. And it's particularly painful if you're in a smaller country. Even though you've raised the reputation of the league and the reputation of your club, the new values are still indexed on the base value set in the database.

The part in bold is not correct, as your league reputation changes the transfer & wage value tables that are kept under the hood are also updated to alter the base values.

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Just now, Barside said:

The part in bold is not correct, as your league reputation changes the transfer & wage value tables that are kept under the hood are also updated to alter the base values.

I don't exactly see how you disagree with what I've said, or perhaps I have not been clear. What I mean is that if you start in a smaller country, you will never reach player values like the ones found in bigger countries... even if you reach the Top 5 of reputation rankings. That much I know to be true since I've experienced it myself.

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This is based on almost 4 year old information so could be incorrect due to intented or unintended changes.

As far as I recall that's not would should happen, if your league reaches say 190 rep the value tables should have changed over time to use values similar to those of 190 rep leagues in the database. 

 

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20 hours ago, Barside said:

This is based on almost 4 year old information so could be incorrect due to intented or unintended changes.

As far as I recall that's not would should happen, if your league reaches say 190 rep the value tables should have changed over time to use values similar to those of 190 rep leagues in the database. 

 

Four years ago it was FM15, and that was back when Gibraltar had crazy inflated TV money if you pushed the league up high enough (I'm not sure that much has changed, haven't checked). Also, it's kind of the situation discussed in this very thread: someone managing in Scotland who cannot get their valuation of a player matched by the AI, their valuation being "what it would cost them to replace this player"; which in my opinion is fair. To be clear, when I say " the new values are still indexed on the base value set in the database", I'm taking about the values below. It doesn't mean "the values are fixed". What I mean, is that "the values evolve based on the values set in the db". They go higher if the league's/country's reputation evolves, lower if it decreases. And I've managed long enough in Slovenia to remember that, and what's being said in this thread seems to confirm my assumption. Same goes for TV money and prize money: evolves with reputation increase or decrease based on the values set in the database you're using, but you don't get whole new TV contracts.

Ukrainians, Argentinian and Croatian youngsters (which means "based in these countries") always were more expensive than average but not so expensive you cannot buy them when you had enough money. Meanwhile, Brazilians youngsters were cheap if they were fairly unknown players, but as soon as their reputation increases their value did so exponentially. All of this can be seen in the database: how disrepute Argentinians still command a decent fee, how disrepute Brazilian are cheap but see their value increase a lot with their reputation, etc. That is what I'm talking about.

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Edited by BMNJohn
Typo.

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Hey FrazT

Thanks for raising a genuine issue. :thup:

Most of the community moderators blindly back the game implementation instead of raising and accepting the existing issues. I love this game and hope to see continuous improvements.

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@abhid30007-Some of the most vocal and active posters in the closed beta testing forum are the forum mods, believe me!  The Mods are players just like all the rest of you and we are as frustrated as others with shortfalls in the game, which is by no means perfect ( and probably never will be ).  Our responsibility is not to blindly back the game, but to ensure that valid criticisms are expressed constructively and posts that are clearly factually wrong are corrected.

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Im currently playing in the scottish league as celtic and dont have this problem. 

 

In two seasons ive sold dembele for 75m set his asking price at 80m and ajer for 80m after setting his asking price at 80m. 

 

It may be club rep related aswell as league rep. 

 

As far as news reports setting values accurately i had one pop up in an old save that bayern were preparing a 1.2bn bid for kasper dolberg. This seemed to be completely far fetched and a bid never materialized. 

 

This could be that the AI want your player. Have limited funds available and are bidding what they have. A players value and anything's value is and should always be what someone is willing to pay, not what we expect to receive. 

20180827_210616.jpg

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