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okereke

Inspiring Concepts #1 – Celtic's Strikerless 1-2-to-2-1

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Good stuff mate, just wondering if you’ve tried RMD’s over TQ on the wings?

Also the midfield, I like it. Seen any negatives from it? Like BWM out of position, or the Auto option meaning they are either too deep or too advanced in certain transitions?

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hace 23 horas, craiigman dijo:

Good stuff mate, just wondering if you’ve tried RMD’s over TQ on the wings?

Also the midfield, I like it. Seen any negatives from it? Like BWM out of position, or the Auto option meaning they are either too deep or too advanced in certain transitions?

1. I was actually kind of lucky to opt to use the TQ role from the get-go, as it pretty much fit what I was looking for. Although I've not tried or tested the RMD option much in this schema, I'd say it wouldn't be quite what I would expect given that I see the TQ more as a playmaker (then dropping more) than the RMD. I wanted my wingers to cover the flank and also get inside the area as some sort of a forward pair, and it is happening by using the combination of 2TQ+SS, while also giving the TQs freedom to build the game from the halfway line, something the RMD may not be so inclined to do.

2. As far as the midfield goes, I didn't want to field any ball-magnet player in it so I opted for quite simple roles there in the shape of two basic CMs. This was even furthered by putting them on Auto, thus awarding him changing mentalities as they pleased, adapting to the situation, kinda just having two defense/attack outlets in midfield (you can see how they move up and down the field in some of the videos I posted). BWM comments as a reply to Denen.

hace 2 horas, denen123 dijo:

Great stuff.

Any issues with the BWM out of place often?

Not at all. As you can see in the images and the videos I've uploaded, the BWM is working just I wanted and had pictured in my mind when envisioning the system. Knowing that I would be going too much into attack by fielding two offensive minded WBs, I needed to keep some defensive presence in place, which come from the CDs and the BWM, who form a sitting triangle that keeps it shape pretty much at every moment, even while pressing high up the pitch (which may lead to think that some players may lose their position).

I'm actually quite happy with how everything is working, as it perfectly fits what I wanted to achieve (more than just the 1-2-to-2-1 concept, which is the main point of the thread/built-system).

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Great stuff mate.  As I said in another thread, I knew you could create some cracking topics of your own.

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En 26/8/2018 a las 15:44, Robson 07 dijo:

Great stuff mate.  As I said in another thread, I knew you could create some cracking topics of your own.

Thank Robson. I'll be posting the last update today or tomorrow and then move on to another concept, which will probably be based around a greater scenario/plan. 

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Time for a last update, which doesn't mean the thread needs to be close as I'll still be able to discuss anything you want about the system, approach, inspiration, etc.

I opted to start writing about my FM experiences not long ago and this was the first serious and "live" topic I created about an ongoing game, but as I already said I don't have much time to put on playing so I usually opt to go for developing quick "ideas" or saves in which I take a team and try to do something concrete. In this case, I think after one season I've achieved the goal of creating that concept of having a forward dropping and two wingers getting up-and-down, in-and-out the field to create the concept Ancelotti once used at Chelsea (see first post for more info).

As a final summary of things, I won't be talking much about new developments of the system given that I think I had already got it nailed down to how it played in my head by the time I gave you all the last update, so I will just go over how the season finished and just show you some videos that highlights some of the formation and style of play key concepts.

* * *

As you know, I chose Celtic as my starting club and turned it into an all-Scots team. Even with that I didn't expect much competition at least on the national side of things barring Rangers, and would try to get as far as possible in the UCL/EL without actually much expectations given the level of the clubs we would be facing. After the season finished, this is the summary of it.

ji1jKxJ.png

We basically were able to won every trophy we played on except the European competition, although we suffered a little at first in the league given that we didn't have a great start and that Rangers basically were not dropping a single point early in the season. Finally everything turned out as expected and we won the league against the very own Rangers with two matches to play. The same happened in the Cup Final, which we also won by 3-1 against Rangers.

In both those games our style was deployed to perfection, using both a great defensive aggressive pressing to recover the ball and generate chances on the counter. The following videos are from those games, but they pretty much sum up the vast majority of our attack during the season. All already explained principles are in play. The 2CDs maintaining their position, the "defensive triangle" including the BWM maintaining its shape, the pressing high up the pitch, the use of full backs on attack to overlap and overload the defense and cross/direct pass the ball to the other side, and ultimately, the 1-2-to-2-1 working like a charm to give us loads of goals.

As you can also see in the previous image, we were eliminated by Chelsea even while winning 2-0 in the first leg of the first knockout round. They demolished us in the return, 6-2, which highlighted the deficiencies of the system when playing strong opposition willing to inflict damage. Our defense was caught on more than one or two occasions and floated balls also killed us. Not that I care much, as that was not the point of the whole thread, but I knew it was coming sooner or later.

w3STXfK.png

On a global note, both TQs worked wonders and the SS was much better (as a forward, let's understand) that I expected. The TQs helped the midfielders build the plays by dropping from their starting positions, there were constantly a thread getting inside leaving room for the overlapping WBs and put up tremendous assisting and also scoring numbers (the latter because of that crossing/changing direction of play with long passes from the other side, finding the open man easily).

I usually played an AM on the SS position and not a pure striker, and it was perfect. He linked a lot with the midfielders by dropping quite a lot and making himself into another midfielder to a more than good point. Even with that, the danger of him getting into the area, as expected, was always there and the SS thus produced a great deal of goals too.

To complete the formation/system, just mention the fundamental presence of two hyper-attacking WBs overlapping and generating problems play after play. This had the problem of leaving a quite defenseless unit back in front of the GK often formed by just the 2CDs and the BWM, although it was pretty solid during the season. The BWM held position all the time without venturing too much and the defensive triangle was more than enough dominate most matches and control the situation.

* * *

With the task completed at Celtic and the system I envisioned put in play and deployed in Scotland, I will be moving to another club for the next "challenge" or "inspirational project".

That is the intention of this series, if we can call them that. I also wanted to "warn" you in that I won't be making this a story by giving updates on matches etc as you have seen here, but rather focus on the tactics, formations and ideas I'd like to develop at different teams and countries, so I'll keep my threads in this section of the forum (such as others as @westy8chimp or @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! have been doing lately). I will keep playing the same save tho as I'd like to see the world evolve and have something more interesting going while playing to keep me engaged (which doesn't mean neither that I may take on individual threads focusing on present-day squads with the original database if I see fit, tho).

Not gonna unveil my next destination yet, but I can tell you I'm going to a team that disappointed during the season just finished by closing the season 6th in the Premier League, only earning a spot in the Europa League. Onwards we march! :D 

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Really enjoying this, keep it up!

What was your defensive record like in the league and in general? Did you have any problems with your WBs being out of position too often? 

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Cracking stuff mate, excited for the Arsenal thread ;)

If you were to continue, what do you think you would change vs the bigger teams to avoid those defeats? Slightly less adventurous full backs? 

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hace 9 horas, FlairRA dijo:

Really enjoying this, keep it up!

What was your defensive record like in the league and in general? Did you have any problems with your WBs being out of position too often? 

Here are some stats and numbers. Thanks for the idea, I will keep track of them during the duration of the series.

E4PHHDK.png

Pretty good record both on goal scored and allowed, with a 1.29 goal difference between them in all competitions. Rangers, for example, were incredibly potent in offense scoring 94 goals (2.47 per game) in 38 league matches while allowing 38. Had Morelos not been injured (in a match against us...) for 3 months he could have finished with over 30 goals easily (he scored 17 in 18 league games). To not play a true-forward and go with a strikerless system, something I had never seriously done to be honest, I'm pretty happy with the outcome.

In the UCL we finished the group stage 2nd only behind Real Madrid while scoring 12 and conceding 9 (4 against Madrid, giving away the second leg match as we were already onto the Round of 16).

WBs commented next.

hace 7 horas, craiigman dijo:

Cracking stuff mate, excited for the Arsenal thread ;)

If you were to continue, what do you think you would change vs the bigger teams to avoid those defeats? Slightly less adventurous full backs? 

Thanks Craig, hope you like the next adventure! :D

As far as how I would have kept evolving the system, it is hard to give a quick answer without putting much more think that I've done now over it, given that I honestly just focused on the forward-trio for the challenge and basically complemented it the best I could but not giving much thought to anything else (keeping some balance in there, tho).

The first thing, as you already said and I explained, would be to find a better (or proper) way of assessing the combination of WBs and TQs in transition on defense, as both WBs are usually way up the pitch so they find pretty hard to track back cause they go all-in every single time and against strong opposition the defensive triangle is just plainly not enough. changing their mentality to a more denfensive one would be the obvious first step, and even maybe changing their role from WB to FB could placate them a little more while also awarding them offensive chances and room to roam upfield (I've not tested it). Another option could be to keep the FBs back and try to use some sort of side-central midfielders going to the touchlines instead of WBs, maybe some sort of Mezzala going from inside to the outside part of the pitch to overlap the TQs when they get inside, although that may create a rather big empty space on the center field around the halfway line.

Just talking off the top of my head ^^

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Off the top of my head another options to maybe strengthen defensively would be playing a pair of attacking inverted wingers in the midfield strata creating a 4510 type formation. The deeper starting position might help with the defensive stability although still would have some issues ib the transition phase.

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