Buying young English players with potential

[karanhsingh]

...is impossible! I know that this has been discussed before, and when they ask for absurd money, it just means they dont want to sell the player. Fine, I do accept that.

But what is not realistic is that all the big clubs just hold onto these players, they don't play them, they make it impossible to buy them, and eventually they don't come close to fulfilling their potential. I've taken 2 games up till 2024 and it's the same thing each time.

Several players like Tammy Abraham, Kasey Palmer, Angel Gomes, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson, Oliver Burke, Reiss Nelson, Phil Foden, Marcus Edwards,  Axel Tuanzebe, etc. the list goes on... every time I try to buy them I am asked for anywhere between 100 million pounds and both my kidneys. 

So if you want to build a squad with young English talent you end up buying the same few guys who play for smaller clubs like James Maddison who are actually available at normal prices. Surely this isnt realistic? I get a big club not wanting to sell their 19 year old who may come good, but when the guy has turned 21 or 22 and still not getting any games, surely they would be OK to sell him at a decent price then? Happens all the time IRL, like City sold Iheanacho to Leicester.

[Neotropolis]

1 hour ago, karanhsingh said:

So if you want to build a squad with young English talent you end up buying the same few guys who play for smaller clubs

No, you invest in your youth recruitment and get top English talents that way...

[turnip]

Yeah, I mean you're trying to sign some of the best-known promising young players in the country.

And with squad registration rules being what they are, is it any surprise the clubs are telling you to jog on?

[CFuller]

If Manchester City are 'asking' you for £100million+ for Phil Foden, they're not saying, "Sure, you can have him... for 100 million." They're actually saying, "He's not for sale; at least not for any reasonable price." Clubs used to explicitly state that they wouldn't sell at any price, but SI changed that a few FMs ago.

If you want a team full of young British players, then arguably the best way to go about it is to develop your own. Premier League clubs (especially the bigger clubs) are hardly going to sell their best English talents on the cheap; they certainly won't when they need them to fill their home-grown quota.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Get a DOF with good potential judging? He'll catch a few that fly under the radar of your own scouting team and he can often negotiate absolute bargains (make sure you have the final say though) - I've used it with good success in various saves. It's very easy to hire an exceptional DoF actually, probably they need to be reduced in terms of attribute power.

[karanhsingh]

Guys, I fully understand, what I am saying is that 3 years into the game, said player is now 22 years old and still languishing in the reserves of the big club. They are happy to keep farming them out on loan but you try to buy them and they want 100m. Sorry but that's not realistic. 

[CFuller]

When you are making an offer for a player, do you just 'Suggest Terms' straight away, by any chance?

[karanhsingh]

8 minutes ago, CFuller said:

When you are making an offer for a player, do you just 'Suggest Terms' straight away, by any chance?

I suggest terms at near what the player's current valuation is

[Vernum]

Just look at monaco or real when a club pay want to pay 40m for a young player you dont want to sell, your club sells him anyway because he still has not fulfilled his potential. It's fine that the club dont want to sell the players but the dont want to sell price should be set lower for unproven 15-16 yo kids.

[CFuller]

4 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

I suggest terms at near what the player's current valuation is

I don't think that's a good starting point when it comes to negotiating for young PL players, especially British ones who aren't transfer-listed. You really should be prepared to offer a lot more than the valuation to begin with. The selling club might then give you a counter-offer that's (slightly) more reasonable. That's going off my experience anyway.

[Neotropolis]

6 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

I suggest terms at near what the player's current valuation is

I only ever suggest terms after a few negotiations and if I think they'd be likely to go for it. 

If you just suggest terms at the beginning, you're very unlikely to get a reasonable offer. And even then, you may never get a reasonable offer as clubs don't want to sell.

[jaysdailydose]

10 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Several players like Tammy Abraham, Kasey Palmer, Angel Gomes, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson, Oliver Burke, Reiss Nelson, Phil Foden, Marcus Edwards,  Axel Tuanzebe, etc. the list goes on... every time I try to buy them I am asked for anywhere between 100 million pounds and both my kidneys. 

So if you want to build a squad with young English talent you end up buying the same few guys who play for smaller clubs like James Maddison who are actually available at normal prices. Surely this isnt realistic? I get a big club not wanting to sell their 19 year old who may come good, but when the guy has turned 21 or 22 and still not getting any games, surely they would be OK to sell him at a decent price then? Happens all the time IRL, like City sold Iheanacho to Leicester.

Every single one of those players would have a "Not for Sale" sign on them in real life.  Take Ben Woodburn.  He is already Liverpool's 3rd-youngest scorer ever, and the second youngest ever for Wales behind Gareth Bale.  He was a full Wales international by the age of 17.  Almost every single one of those men is the unquestioned top prospect at their club, with the possible except of Tuanzebe at Man United.  He's probably their #2 behind Chong.  

City sold Iheanacho to Leicester because there was zero chance he would ever make another Premier League appearance for them once Jesus came.  Pep really doesn't play two-striker systems to where there was no reason to have such a valuable commodity collecting dust.

Pretty much every player you mentioned is also at a club that doesn't need your money.  Liverpool doesn't need your money.  Arsenal doesn't need your money for Reiss Nelson, and he's going to get games.  City doesn't need your money for Foden, and he's going to get games, etc, etc, etc.

I also doubt these guys aren't getting games out on loan in the game, and player development generally is great up until 24.  Why not go for full valuation off a 22-year-old prospect?  Obviously, you want them badly, but you want them to take a cut-rate price?  Not to mention giving up a Homegrown player which is extremely important?

You say it "happens all the time IRL, like City sold Iheanacho to Leicester" -- got any more than one player to show it "happens all the time?"  

[Neotropolis]

@jaysdailydose I think you're becoming my favourite person on this forum. You're explanations are near perfect!

[jaysdailydose]

Just now, Neotropolis said:

@jaysdailydose I think you're becoming my favourite person on this forum. You're explanations are near perfect!

Well, thank you very much for that.  

I'm a writer in my other life, so that probably explains it.  Always nice to hear a compliment like that as a writer, though, so thank you!  

[Neotropolis]

2 minutes ago, jaysdailydose said:

Well, thank you very much for that.  

I'm a writer in my other life, so that probably explains it.  Always nice to hear a compliment like that as a writer, though, so thank you!  

No worries! and that would definitely explain it!

[Snorks]

13 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

I suggest terms at near what the player's current valuation is

Players suggested value is nearly always much lower than the actual price you can buy them for. Valuation based on age, potential, length of contract left all go into the 'valuation'. However, if you are to convince the board and manager that he should be sold,, you have to find a price that they accept. 

If you offer valuation, say $20mil, they come back with $120mil - that's a $100mil difference, I reckon, after two or three rounds of negotiaiton they would probably accept $70-80mil as a rule of thumb. I have noticed that roughly, if you subtract your first offer from the reply, half that and add it to the first offer it is around the selling clubs actual price.

That, of course, depends entirely on what their plans are, whether the player wants to come and play for you or not.

With the very best players, either by PA or CA - you need them to want to leave the club they are at - make an offer, get knocked back, tell the media you are interested, set him as a Top Target for the duration of a transfer window. Every few weeks, make an offer a bit higher than your last. The player will, if he is interested in playing for you, start to moan to his manager. Eventually, after a season or two, you will get him for a decent price. 

I was at AC Milan, and Brenda Rogers got sacked from Celtic because he lost the dressing room - one of the main reasons was his refusal to sel lTierney to me, two seasons of offers and press-talk and the whole squad turned on him for holding Tierney back.

[Bothan Spy]

Oliver Burke is Scottish...

[..Valhalla..]

@Bothan Spy 

 

As Liverpool manager, no amount of money will get me to part with Woodburn, Trent, Gomez, Wilson, Brewster etc. And I mean no amount, because I can't buy another HG at club, and I can't possibly assume I'll get a good enough replacement in the youth intake. Genuine quality players who are HG at club are absolutely priceless.

Having said that, I agree with you @karanhsingh, and it's really annoying to see these players rot away in their reserves while their manager buys foreign imports window to window, bloating the squad and the wage bill (I actually started a thread last night about this very subject) without any rhyme or reason to what they are doing.

Your best plan is, as has been said, invest in your own youth. Nag the board to upgrade all youth development options, have the balls to play kids in League games (you simply HAVE to). I totally agree with what you want to do.

This is my current Liverpool squad in 2021, fifteen of my twenty-five 1st team squad is home grown, with several more close to breaking through:

 

NB - I did NOT buy López, Wass, Stepanenko, or Driussi. I tend not to buy foreigners unless I really have to (Alisson), or they can become HG at club (De Ligt). 

[collisonmullan]

Something which used to work very well for me was loaning some of the best youngsters with view to buys. 

Haven’t played this year unfortunately but in the past I would be a smaller prem side with good facilities and history of promoting youth such as Southampton. 

So straight away I would have a group of players who have high potential young and English already. Ward-prowse, slattery, vokins. 

Promote them to the first squad for rotation. 

I would initially sell anyone of any value which I did not see as a key player or starter to raise funds. 

So my squad would consist of a starting XI plus a small group of youngsters from the club. 

I aim to pick up some of the best youngsters outside the prem, the likes of Morgan gibbs-white, Andre green, danny loader, these would be permanent deals. 

Then I would look at where my squad is shortest and aim to get an ‘elite youngster’ from a bigger prem team of loan. 

Mason Holgate was always a favourite of mine and a loan deal with monthly payments with a negotiable purchase clause in it.

Each transfer window I would aim to get 1/2 of these types of deal done. It worked with Neilson, Abraham, and Tuanzebe.

And I found that after half a season on loan, these players have me or players from my squad as favoured people and would be interested in a move and I can get them at a lower fee. 

However tbh I only do that with players who I plan on starting straight away. Otherwise the loan move doesn’t make sense. 

If you can raise the funds something that I used to do which was very fun was assemble a youth team of 16/17 year old max from the best youngsters around which I can get and keep them together in the youth and found that they do very well together and win the league and youth cup. 

Promote the older ones to the under23’s or first team and replace the youngsters every year. 

This way your paying small amounts for talented young players who will play together in a better club and improve and you control there develop from the beginning. 

You also always have a constant stream of talented kids. 

[karanhsingh]

16 hours ago, jaysdailydose said:

Every single one of those players would have a "Not for Sale" sign on them in real life.  Take Ben Woodburn.  He is already Liverpool's 3rd-youngest scorer ever, and the second youngest ever for Wales behind Gareth Bale.  He was a full Wales international by the age of 17.  Almost every single one of those men is the unquestioned top prospect at their club, with the possible except of Tuanzebe at Man United.  He's probably their #2 behind Chong.  

City sold Iheanacho to Leicester because there was zero chance he would ever make another Premier League appearance for them once Jesus came.  Pep really doesn't play two-striker systems to where there was no reason to have such a valuable commodity collecting dust.

Pretty much every player you mentioned is also at a club that doesn't need your money.  Liverpool doesn't need your money.  Arsenal doesn't need your money for Reiss Nelson, and he's going to get games.  City doesn't need your money for Foden, and he's going to get games, etc, etc, etc.

I also doubt these guys aren't getting games out on loan in the game, and player development generally is great up until 24.  Why not go for full valuation off a 22-year-old prospect?  Obviously, you want them badly, but you want them to take a cut-rate price?  Not to mention giving up a Homegrown player which is extremely important?

You say it "happens all the time IRL, like City sold Iheanacho to Leicester" -- got any more than one player to show it "happens all the time?"  

Man united - Zaha, Januzaj, Michael Keane. 

Chelsea recently - Nathan Ake, Chalobah 

spurs sold Bentaleb, Prichard, Naughton etc 

i can keep going on but these are all youngsters with potential, however once they reach like 22 years of age and if they aren’t breaking into the team, the club will usually accept a reasonable amount of money 

it’s not that they need the money but it’s more that the player doesn’t have a future at the club 

however in FM they just continue to hold onto the players and price them out of any moves except loans

i really don’t think it’s realistic 

[Neotropolis]

58 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

Man united - Zaha

I agree with your point on the others but Zaha was slightly different. He fell out with David Moyes and was sold as a result of that.

[karanhsingh]

Like right now in my game in 2020, Palmer is at Chelsea, he’s 23 years old and in December has only made 4 appearances in the league cup. Clearly he’s not going to make it for the club. His value is 9 million and they want 100 million for him. Makes no sense! 

[..Valhalla..]

13 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

Like right now in my game in 2020, Palmer is at Chelsea, he’s 23 years old and in December has only made 4 appearances in the league cup. Clearly he’s not going to make it for the club. His value is 9 million and they want 100 million for him. Makes no sense! 

You're right, it makes absolutely no sense. But the issue isn't the clubs overvaluing the player, it is (and I'm going to theorise) the fact the manager keeps buying in foreign players - check the transfer history - and so they need to keep a hold of some HG players for registration purposes. I can basically guarantee that's the reason; AI managers are utter pump at building a squad, developing youth, planning for the future. The only youth players who make it are the ones that basically land in the manager's lap (the very VERY rare almost 1st-team quality from being generated).

They have zero planning skills at all and so end up hamstrung by a ridiculous transfer policy. Morons. 

[karanhsingh]

Let me further demonstrate with a couple of examples from my game in 2023. 

Harry Wilson, rotting in Liverpool reserves at age 26. Unfortunately at the game start he is signed to a 6 year contract, which is about to expire and he will get released finally from the prison of Anfield. He's not made a single appearance  for the club and not even gone out on loan. I used the editor to check that he does have a high PA (potential ability) but obviously his CA is very far from it due to zero game time. Basically, career has been ruined.

Kasey Palmer, similar case but luckily his contract ran out in 2021 so he at least found a new club then. However he was already 24 and will never fulfil his huge potential. He is now a bit part player at Leicester.  Again, his CA and PA gap is massive, probably due to getting no game time and his club just holding onto him too long.

Its a similar case with plenty of other prospects at the game start. The only way to get them is let their contracts run down, but by then its too late for most of them to develop anymore.

I am sorry, but this would never happen IRL.  The clubs would sell these players off and they would demand to leave to continue their careers elsewhere.

[collisonmullan]

20 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

Like right now in my game in 2020, Palmer is at Chelsea, he’s 23 years old and in December has only made 4 appearances in the league cup. Clearly he’s not going to make it for the club. His value is 9 million and they want 100 million for him. Makes no sense! 

On this though. Can I ask why you want to buy a 23 year old whose main developing years have been hampered? Surely there are better options available? 

[karanhsingh]

Just now, collisonmullan said:

On this though. Can I ask why you want to buy a 23 year old whose main developing years have been hampered? Surely there are better options available? 

I am not desperate to buy him, I am pointing out something I believe is broken in the game.

[collisonmullan]

1 minute ago, karanhsingh said:

Let me further demonstrate with a couple of examples from my game in 2023. 

Harry Wilson, rotting in Liverpool reserves at age 26. Unfortunately at the game start he is signed to a 6 year contract, which is about to expire and he will get released finally from the prison of Anfield. He's not made a single appearance  for the club and not even gone out on loan. I used the editor to check that he does have a high PA (potential ability) but obviously his CA is very far from it due to zero game time. Basically, career has been ruined.

Kasey Palmer, similar case but luckily his contract ran out in 2021 so he at least found a new club then. However he was already 24 and will never fulfil his huge potential. He is now a bit part player at Leicester.  Again, his CA and PA gap is massive, probably due to getting no game time and his club just holding onto him too long.

Its a similar case with plenty of other prospects at the game start. The only way to get them is let their contracts run down, but by then its too late for most of them to develop anymore.

I am sorry, but this would never happen IRL.  The clubs would sell these players off and they would demand to leave to continue their careers elsewhere.

I also think this is where a loan deal with a view to permanent is more releastic as that is what would normally happen 

[karanhsingh]

3 minutes ago, collisonmullan said:

I also think this is where a loan deal with a view to permanent is more releastic as that is what would normally happen 

I have tried that and managed to agree a 20m clause with Leko from WBA.

However whatever amount I tried to put for Tuanzebe from United, they just wouldnt put a clause in. But I do agree its a good strategy.

[collisonmullan]

What team are you? 

What is your current squad and who are your targets? 

[..Valhalla..]

32 minutes ago, karanhsingh said:

Let me further demonstrate with a couple of examples from my game in 2023. 

Harry Wilson, rotting in Liverpool reserves at age 26. 

 

Who is managing Liverpool in that save? I'm curious what their first team is like and if they have many HG players? Are they in Europe?

Liverpool almost always do rubbish if I'm not managing them; loads of daft signings, huge wage bill, barely scraping into Europe some years... AI managers are morons. I don't understand why they can't recognise when they have a potential star at the club and give him game time. 

[karanhsingh]

52 minutes ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

 

Who is managing Liverpool in that save? I'm curious what their first team is like and if they have many HG players? Are they in Europe?

Liverpool almost always do rubbish if I'm not managing them; loads of daft signings, huge wage bill, barely scraping into Europe some years... AI managers are morons. I don't understand why they can't recognise when they have a potential star at the club and give him game time. 

I will check. It’s a general trend though not limited to Liverpool. I agree, AI sucks at squad building. A lot of it probably down to that. 

[karanhsingh]

1 hour ago, collisonmullan said:

What team are you? 

What is your current squad and who are your targets? 

Blackburn. Will post up squad later. Currently in 2020 and our first season in the premier league. 

Playing a challenge of only buying British players. I’ve found you can get to a certain level by buying decent players who are available, but then to really go to the next level you need youngsters who have potential to really develop. That’s where this becomes a problem because the bigger clubs just keep holding onto them even if they have no future at the club. Currently using the loan system for a few of these. 

Palmer is a target because I want to replace Mulgrew with a midfielder who has a good long shot and free kicks. 

[collisonmullan]

I would say you would struggle to sign Top young English talent anyway. How realistic is it that a talented youngster at a Top club would leave for a team just promoted and likely to be in a relegation battle.

unlikely in real like so why would they in game? 

[michaeltmurrayuk]

On 04/08/2018 at 09:20, karanhsingh said:

...is impossible! I know that this has been discussed before, and when they ask for absurd money, it just means they dont want to sell the player. Fine, I do accept that.

But what is not realistic is that all the big clubs just hold onto these players, they don't play them, they make it impossible to buy them, and eventually they don't come close to fulfilling their potential. I've taken 2 games up till 2024 and it's the same thing each time.

Several players like Tammy Abraham, Kasey Palmer, Angel Gomes, Ben Woodburn, Harry Wilson, Oliver Burke, Reiss Nelson, Phil Foden, Marcus Edwards,  Axel Tuanzebe, etc. the list goes on... every time I try to buy them I am asked for anywhere between 100 million pounds and both my kidneys. 

So if you want to build a squad with young English talent you end up buying the same few guys who play for smaller clubs like James Maddison who are actually available at normal prices. Surely this isnt realistic? I get a big club not wanting to sell their 19 year old who may come good, but when the guy has turned 21 or 22 and still not getting any games, surely they would be OK to sell him at a decent price then? Happens all the time IRL, like City sold Iheanacho to Leicester.

Teams will generally sell the players on when they know they won't make it or the player wants out in my game in 2025 Abraham went to Sunderland for £6m in 2021 (after a season as backup at chelsea and loans to leeds and las palmas), Kasey Palmer went to Wolves for £3m in 2019, Angel Gomes joined Brighton for £825K in 2022 after a couple of seasons being loaned out, Woodburn was loaned to Mboro and came back to be part of Liverpools squad for two seasons before joining Stoke for £8.5m, Harry Wilson was loaned to Norwich and Newcastle before joining Brentford for £2.3m in 2020, Oliver Burke spent several seasons playing for West Brom before Soton signing him for £30m, Reiss Nelson went to Dortmund for £24m in 2022 after a couple of bit part seasons at Arsenal, Tuanzebe had a couple of loans before joining Bordeaux on a free in 2021.

Marcus Edwards broke into the Spurs side in 2022 and has made 30+ league appearances in the each of the last three seasons

Foden is rotting away at City though that is his own fault as he doesn't want to leave them, and he has just picked up a major injury which will rule him out for the next 7 months.

So from your list only Foden has rotted away in my game (and that is due to him not the club), however each of these players looks to have moved on when they were 23/24 so that seems to be when teams/players make the decision on whether to keep them, which makes sense - they don't need registering until they are 22 so there is no need for top teams to cull these players before then and after that it's likely to take the players 6-18 months to realise they won't make it and accept a move elsewhere.

From that List Abraham, Woodburn, Foden and Tuanzebe have all reached their Potential, with the others apart from Wilson all ~10 points from their potential, with Wilson about 30 points short of his potential.

The other thing you have to consider is Brexit, any version of this makes Under 21 domestic players a lot more valuable it also increases the value of Homegrown players as they are harder to get, so whilst the players might not be getting loads of matches they could be making the bench or filling the squad places which is why the AI won't let them go until they know they won't make it or they have to register them. The player will also have an affect on them leaving, if they are at a big club some are more likely to hang around hoping they make it instead of dropping down to a smaller club to get matches.