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okereke

Discussion on real life systems/ideas still impossible to replicate on the Tactical Creator

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I was reading a topic discussing the development of a tactic for FM17 and was reminded of how a concept as "simple" as the Salida Lavolpiana was not possible to be fully implemented in game not that long ago (not that now is there a definitive waythat convinces everybody, though, as there are potential issues with the possibilities available).

That made me wonder which are some other tactics/concepts/strategies, no matter how big or small they are, that we know from real-life football that are still very hard (in the sense of not being able to implement them to the exact way the work) or impossible to replicate with the last iteration of the Tactical Creator on FM18. I think it could make for a great topic of discussion and also an inspiration for those of us crazy enough to still put on hours trying to get something to work within the game existing mechanics.

Please feel free to participate and don't be afraid of saying something that someone maybe comes back to reply with an already-known solution to. The point is to try and showcase different interesting tactical concepts and think of ways to implement them in game, so hopefully more than one and two people get ideas for new tactics, games, etc... Let's have some fun!

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The TC is getting there... 

Still lacks the dynamic aspects of real life football... Such as when one fb goes forward the other stays back... One player presses another holds etc. At the moment we have to specify on a player by player or whole team basis. 

I think those kind of things are achievable. 

The more detailed pressing traps and passing lanes may never be programmable. 

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You can't really do rotational fouling - but I imagine that's SI not wanting to put the negative aspects of football in, other than the odd refereeing mistake. You also can't have the man who's about to be substituted slowly shifting himself to the far side of the pitch before the ball goes out of play, then trudging across at a glacial place applauding the supporters and moving his legs fast somehow (tiny steps) - for the same reason as rotational fouling, I imagine.

Obviously they're not big concepts like the pressing traps westy8chimp mentions, but they're a definite tactic used by teams. 

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11 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

You can't really do rotational fouling - but I imagine that's SI not wanting to put the negative aspects of football in, other than the odd refereeing mistake. You also can't have the man who's about to be substituted slowly shifting himself to the far side of the pitch before the ball goes out of play, then trudging across at a glacial place applauding the supporters and moving his legs fast somehow (tiny steps) - for the same reason as rotational fouling, I imagine.

Obviously they're not big concepts like the pressing traps westy8chimp mentions, but they're a definite tactic used by teams. 

But isnt that a tactic outside the foundations of a formation? But i get your point.

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Some teams have two very different shapes when defending or attacking.  In many instances that can be replicated but in some instances it can't.

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41 minutes ago, PigeonStrangler said:

Some teams have two very different shapes when defending or attacking.  In many instances that can be replicated but in some instances it can't.

What are you having trouble implementing?

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il y a 21 minutes, RocheBag a dit :

What are you having trouble implementing?

I can't implement a system with a back four when defending becoming a back three when attacking. 

Here's my topic on it :

https://community.sigames.com/topic/443510-from-4-5-1-to-3-5-2/

When I win the ball back, I'd like my right WB and my two CB to slide on the left to form a back 3 whereas my left WB would come higher up the pitch.

At the moment, I haven't been able to set this behaviour, no matter which role/duty/PI I selected for my RWB.

 

Edited by xavierm

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I just want the option to tell my two centerbacks to fan out when playing out from the back. This can be achieved to a degree by using inverted wingbacks on either side of the CB’s - or putting wingbacks in the WB strata but I dont like that. The centerbacks split way too much - especially when the ball reaches the half line. The CB’s leaves too big of a hole in the middle. The way they operate with two inverted wingbacks is close to perfect. 

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hace 10 horas, Gegenklaus dijo:

I just want the option to tell my two centerbacks to fan out when playing out from the back. This can be achieved to a degree by using inverted wingbacks on either side of the CB’s - or putting wingbacks in the WB strata but I dont like that. The centerbacks split way too much - especially when the ball reaches the half line. The CB’s leaves too big of a hole in the middle. The way they operate with two inverted wingbacks is close to perfect. 

I've implemented this with the presence of a HB in the DM position. I tried a 3-CB line but it didn't work as expected, so I opted for the other option given that I was looking to feature a defensive man either way, so it didn't bother me to put a HB in there instead of a BWM.

Dynamo-Moscow-formation-tactics.png

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3 hours ago, okereke said:

I've implemented this with the presence of a HB in the DM position. I tried a 3-CB line but it didn't work as expected, so I opted for the other option given that I was looking to feature a defensive man either way, so it didn't bother me to put a HB in there instead of a BWM.

Dynamo-Moscow-formation-tactics.png

Yes, I’ve used that too, but I dont like that they stay too wide for my taste when the ball progress towards the half line - the point where the half back his central position and starts moving up to support the play in midfield. Also I dont like being forced to operate with attacker in the AM-C-R-L strata. :)

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@okereke @Gegenklaus as with the Libero (I've seen HB called an "inverted libero" given his movement) it seems like you have to make tradeoffs. I only really resort to the HB if I'm doing possession based tactics, and it does add to your vulnerability to a long ball over the top when it leaves a huge hole in between the centre backs. Its definitely something that needs worked on, but at the same time if they stay too narrow, given you have wing backs pushing on in order to get the split, you could be even more vulnerable down the flanks...

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17 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

@okereke @Gegenklaus as with the Libero (I've seen HB called an "inverted libero" given his movement) it seems like you have to make tradeoffs. I only really resort to the HB if I'm doing possession based tactics, and it does add to your vulnerability to a long ball over the top when it leaves a huge hole in between the centre backs. Its definitely something that needs worked on, but at the same time if they stay too narrow, given you have wing backs pushing on in order to get the split, you could be even more vulnerable down the flanks...

Your right. But the wingbacks shouldnt push to far ahead. Just high enough to make the pitch biggee and offer a wide solution. In the WB strata they move way too far up so they cant be a part of the first phase of build up. 

I have actually found that DLP with Comes Deep To Get Ball-trait works really good when using two centerbacks and two inverted wingbacks. The half back just makes the CB’s stay wide for too long, while the DLP can drop in between and offer an option. It works wonders - but Thats only when using inverted wingbacks. 

 

Edited by Gegenklaus

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Yeh in my season 8 the hb was beautiful, i used wbs to recycle possesion, with pi to restrict their movement... Worked very well. The split at the back is scarily risky, but didnt cost me often

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On ‎01‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 16:41, xavierm said:

When I win the ball back, I'd like my right WB and my two CB to slide on the left to form a back 3 whereas my left WB would come higher up the pitch.

At the moment, I haven't been able to set this behaviour, no matter which role/duty/PI I selected for my RWB.

I've tried a complete right wing back for Florenzi at Roma.  He loves it and becomes a real creative outlet on the right.  The other full back exhibits completely different behaviour but its not a back three.  A DLP with GK distribution set to him has a similar(ish) effect to half back but again its still not the other full back making this back three I don't quite know how you can get it.  Have you tried a defensive full back with play narrower?

Edited by Robson 07

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10 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Your right. But the wingbacks shouldnt push to far ahead. Just high enough to make the pitch biggee and offer a wide solution. In the WB strata they move way too far up so they cant be a part of the first phase of build up. 

I have actually found that DLP with Comes Deep To Get Ball-trait works really good when using two centerbacks and two inverted wingbacks. The half back just makes the CB’s stay wide for too long, while the DLP can drop in between and offer an option. It works wonders - but Thats only when using inverted wingbacks. 

 

I'd tried DLP with CDTGB trait in my Brazilian style 4-2-2-2 formation and saw him dropping deep sometimes due to GK distribution, but the CBs never split, he just played a series of really short passes with them as he got back into midfield. Never thought of using IWBs there, never really used them in the FB strata.

Have you tried WB-De? I only have once but his opposite number was a CWB-At and I was far more focussed on all the great attacking play I was getting to notice the buildup shape too much. It makes sense that the WB strata pushes them on a little - they're meant to be progressed as far as any non-HB DM is at the start of the move. Just frustrating the HB role can't do it, with a flat four, although it makes sense and its seems hypocritical complaining too much given I'm one of those who thinks the likes of SV and Car should be more restricted in their use, not less (you can still use SV without anyone beside him for example, and Car shouldn't be available if you have wide defenders and attackers selected on that flank). 

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Il y a 9 heures, Robson 07 a dit :

I've tried a complete right wing back for Florenzi at Roma.  He loves it and becomes a real creative outlet on the right.  The other full back exhibits completely different behaviour but its not a back three.  A DLP with GK distribution set to him has a similar(ish) effect to half back but again its still not the other full back making this back three I don't quite know how you can get it.  Have you tried a defensive full back with play narrower?

Oh yes I tried, but it didn't work. The DFB, even with "Play Narrower" PI, is too high up the pitch (number 17 is my DFB), and the two CB don't slide on the left ...

351188441_withball.jpg.f8387bba78d7e8e54

 

I really don't know how to get it. Interior Wingback doesn't make it too. I think it's something that is totally impossible with the actual TC, whereas perfectly valid IRL.

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Mine has to do with how the front 3 would mark and press the opponents' back line. In real life I coach my striker to be the first defender when one of the center backs has the ball, while the outside forwards mark the options to the left and right. In this picture below, the DCR has the ball so the center striker presses. The AML marks the right fullback while the AMR marks the left center back. As it is in game, I have been unable to get the players to function like this. I don't know how to tell them to make it possible, but I'd like to be able to.

image.thumb.png.76f4ff5f9ae9236ca53350fe8a2499f0.png

Edited by Uncle_Sam

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@Uncle_Sam you'd have to pick either the weakest or strongest ball player to mark (depending on whether you merely want to limit their ability to play out from the back, or try to force a mistake from a less composed player) and set up individual marking. You can't make it situational like you coach though as far as I can think.

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10 hours ago, xavierm said:

Oh yes I tried, but it didn't work. The DFB, even with "Play Narrower" PI, is too high up the pitch (number 17 is my DFB), and the two CB don't slide on the left ...

351188441_withball.jpg.f8387bba78d7e8e54

 

I really don't know how to get it. Interior Wingback doesn't make it too. I think it's something that is totally impossible with the actual TC, whereas perfectly valid IRL.

Have you tried some asymetric formation with 3 at the back and a WB in the WB strata. It might do the trick perhaps with forcing the back 3 into a back 4 during the defensive phase and again turn into a back 3 when attacking? 

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I was thinking about this the other day.  Things it would be pretty straightforward to add:

- Strikers defending / vertical compactness

- Wingers tucking in, team pushing across to close down / horizontal compactness

- The general concept of counterpressing

- Defenders who bring the ball out or move into midfield without the ball

- Different basic shapes with and without the ball (as a team formation, not the wibble wobble squares). Particularly with regards width

- What are now PPI's really should be tactical instructions in a lot of cases - arrives late in box for example.

 

What I think would be the ultimate, and I'm not suggesting this is achievable any time soon, would be to have a match engine that was accessible in the form not just of a tactics creator / set of options, but as a programming language like Excel, so you could theoretically tell any player to execute any action depending on any conditions (ball in certain zone, ball nearby, ball in possession of certain player, a certain player performing some other task, there not being a player in a certain zone) and nest those instructions (mark this player IF ball is here AND this guy is in position etc). You could then take it to a ridiculous level if you wanted to and replicate more or less any system. You'd have to accept that if you got it wrong your matches would turn into an awful mess and you'd probably lose, but then you always have the option of putting the stabilisers on and going back to the tactics creator.

Edited by ceefax the cat

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Accurate runs for set piece set up is one of the things we havent got yet.

For now we could only choose a zone for our player to attack in set pieces.

If we could accurately pinpoint the attacking run route and destination with accurate timing ( i.e. order of players runs), set pieces could be much more dangerous, just like in real life football  (how many set piece goals in world cup lol).

Edited by moolochicken
Formatting

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