Help beating defensive teams

[jax9320]

Hi guys, so I'm playing as man city and my tactic can beat other attacking teams that give us space, but I can't manage to get through a defensive team. or a low block.  Most of my attacks end in big crosses that are easily dealt with by the defense, or shots from outside the box. I've tried to prevent these. Below I've included screenshots, "City Attacking" is more or less my usual tactic. and the copy is a variation I'm trying to make to beat defensive sides. I've read lots of articles. including Cleon's The art of attacking football. and mostly they talk about beating defensive sides by creating space, using movement, maintaining width. and not overcrowding attacking areas. I've tried to do all those things, but i'm kinda stuck. So what do you think about the tactics, or am I going about this all wrong? Thanks

[RodentofDoom]

Against defensive teams you have to force the space you need to open, and tbh it's not always easy to do.

 

If your playing against a 4xx

your wide players will be marked &/or closed down

your loan striker has 2 CD's to contend with

your attack duty CM will have the defend/support duty midfield strata to deal with

 

for an aggressive tactic 3 players on defend duty is the minimum I would feel comfortable with (2 CD's + 1 Midfield player)

I generally use the IF in a support role & assign the winger the attack duty,

behind the IF I have a FB or WB on attack as this brings that player forwards to take the space the IF vacates when he cuts inside

behind the winger I have a FB/WB on support, as this brings him forward to give an extra passing option in forward areas on that flank

I don't use the CAR/MEZ when I have the AML/R positions in play as they conflict in the space occupied on the pitch (See Cleon's write up on the Mezzala)

You may have more success with a B2B + AP/DLP combo

 

im no expert, and often get things wrong, but I hope the explanations behind the changes I would make help you understand things more

 

 

When in doubt trust Cleon to have the answer

 

[summatsupeer]

Your first is overly focused on players "get forward" (4 of front 5 plus both FBs).  All 3 midfielders roaming which in combination with both FBs getting high up the pitch (WB-S + Look For Overlap) leaves a lot of space for the CBs to cover.  You mention crossing but your telling your team to specifically look for the overlap, that tells the wide forwards to hold up the ball to give them time to get forward, but then what are the WBs going to do with it? Work Ball Into Box will tell them to cross less but what if they have no other options?  Especially when they're told to take lots of risks, same for the W-S.

The second tactic looks a bit more balanced but I don't see the moving/passing patterns to break open defences.  Both your "runners" are attacking the same area (IF-A + MEZ-S).  Your W-S is unlikely to pass backwards (a safe possession pass) to your DLP due to his instructions and your told your team to take lots of risks by selecting Attacking mentality.  You've reduced your focus on the overlap but also reduced the early runners (CF-A -> W-S).

It's like you've tried to introduce "possession" elements to your "attacking" tactic but thats just reduced the options.  If you want to attack quickly I'm not sure about double pivot (DM-D + DLP-S) with two support wingbacks, thats very possession style but the rest of the tactic isn't very possession style.  Attacking style can still work against defensive opponents, but you have to use space whilst you have it and give the players options that fit the instructions.  You could keep your creator in DMC but then instead of having a front 5 from using two MEZ with two wide forwards and a ST, you could have 2 "late arrivers" in the hole behind the CF-A.  If you'd rather have your CF-S drop then i'd have an earlier runner inside of the W-S and have the MCL support them but not attack the same space as the IF-A such as BWM-S, CM-S or BBM-S.

[jax9320]

Thanks guys, those comments are helping me understand a few things better. A couple of things though;

"Both your "runners" are attacking the same area (IF-A + MEZ-S)."  Do the CFs and Ws not count as runners? And what do you mean by "reduced the early runners (CF-A -> W-S)." 

And in the last paragraph there, you're saying if i want to have a CF-A, I could have 2 "late arrivers" in the hole behind him. What roles would you suggest? 

[jax9320]

What do you guys think of this then?

[summatsupeer]

4 hours ago, jax9320 said:

"Both your "runners" are attacking the same area (IF-A + MEZ-S)."  Do the CFs and Ws not count as runners? 

The IF-A and MEZ-S are both told to "Get Forward", this will increase the frequency of there sprints forward off the ball. 

CF-S and W-S will try off the ball forward runs but not as often so should be able to collect the ball at there feet more often, of course then there Dribble More instruction means they'll run with it more often.

Quote

And what do you mean by "reduced the early runners (CF-A -> W-S)." 

Errr I meant CF-A -> CF-S.

Quote

And in the last paragraph there, you're saying if i want to have a CF-A, I could have 2 "late arrivers" in the hole behind him. What roles would you suggest? 

BBM-S or CM-S are the main two roles (it says it in the description) but pretty much any non-playmaker role and no forward runs often.

3 hours ago, jax9320 said:

What do you guys think of this then?

I don't see the point in using a REG-S, both the BBM-S and DLP-S will be getting in his way, especially the DLP-S who will also be wanting the ball and moving to collect it, reducing the forward passing options your instructions are telling the players to do.

You still seem to be mixing possession style into attacking style so neither has was it needs to work well.  2 of your front 3 are pushing up and trying to make forward runs, with the winger also staying wider but then 2 of your 3 midfielders are likely going to start quite deep when you get possession so will need to be long accurate passes since they'll have limited options and then have to try and catch up with play.  If they do select a shorter option (BBM-S, IF-S, FB-A?) to move play forward more patiently, your going to run out of space for those high early runners.

If you want your attacking style i'd put the DLP-S in DMC then try to balance your front 5 so you get a good balance.  Give that playmaker options rather than crowding him, give your forwards help and make sure your runners get forward at different times and in different areas.

[sporadicsmiles]

Why are you making the changes you are making? Changing things blindly until something works will, well, work, but if will not teach you anything about why it works.

Some notes from myself on this.

- playing attacking will make you play fast and direct. This can work if it is unsettling the other team, but against defensive teams sometimes patience is called for. Rather than try to batter them down, you can try to draw them out using a more patient approach.

- What do you want your midfield trio to actually do? I play the same formation, and I use a holder, creator, runner combination (DM(D), DLP(S) and CM(A) usually). I have very good reasons to do this. I want to have a defensive holding player to help cover the defense (especially since both by fullbacks move forward in attack) and to act as a deep lying pivot to recycle the ball. I want a DLP who can bring the players around him into play, and also force the AI to push a midfielder higher up to deal with him, which creates space. I have a runner to move into the AMC and occasionally get beyond the striker. He can drag players out of position, create for the front 3, or score. Can you explain in detail what your midfield should do?

- Beating a defensive team is all about dragging them out of their defensive shape (or catching them in possession during a transition). Creating overloads is a key part to this. I usually try to overload one flank with both winger and full back attacking a single player. Depending on the formation I play, this often means a midfielder or defender has to come and help out. This creates space elsewhere. By having the correct support players around this overload, if I can get the ball to them, I have space to exploit and I have disrupted the defensive shape of the other team. They are now in reactionary mode and I have a better chance to create something. How and where do you want to overload a team?

[Robson 07]

On ‎28‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 18:15, jax9320 said:

I can't manage to get through a defensive team. or a low block.  Most of my attacks end in big crosses that are easily dealt with by the defense, or shots from outside the box. I've tried to prevent these. ….beating defensive sides by creating space, using movement, maintaining width. and not overcrowding attacking areas. I've tried to do all those things, but i'm kinda stuck. So what do you think about the tactics, or am I going about this all wrong? Thanks

I think you have identified some good things.  Firstly you recognise the issues is with lesser sides or certainly defensive ones.  And the things you're looking at for a resolution should help but you're not sure how to achieve them.  These are all taken from you quote.

1. Create space.  This is huge for you I think and something you've not achieved.  Your main tactic and then your 3rd post both have your team with a 'much higher defensive line' with an attacking mentality.  You are squeezing all the space out of your attacks regardless of team shape and role changes.
2. Use movement.  Who's moving?  Okay but could be better in your opening post.  Movement is runs from deep, roaming, fluidity/creative freedom...and don't forget preferred player moves too.
3. Maintain width.  If you are going with attack mentality then you have that already.

Not overcrowding attacking areas.  This is really no more than saying the same as you've covered with the first three.

Finally I'd just add not to get too hung up on roles.  Sure they play a part in all this but its often over emphasised.

[HansJoachimM]

My advice on how to beat defensive teams:

• Set all midfielders to 'dribble less'
• Set full backs to 'attack'
• Set team tactic to 'control', 'keep possession', and 'look for overlap'

[jax9320]

Hey guys, thanks for all the help, it's been very useful. So i changed my tactics a bit in line with some of your comments and suggestions, for the end of the season, and it really worked, my team started to blow the other sides away. So i kept that tactic for the new season, and now for some reason its not working like before. I'm conceding regularly to lots of teams, and not scoring like before. Anyone have any idea what might have changed? I didn't change any of the tactic or the players, it just stopped working once the new season began. Here it is anywa y

[kpsia518]

 

Breaking Down a Compact Defence

https://www.gpstechnicalarea.com/news_article/show/828516

Backwards passing to open up ‘10 space’

 

from analysis,

1) empty the penalty boxes

2) winger just stay position,not allow to leave before you enter to the final third.You can do any thing in final third,but not in midfield

3) try to pull AI's midfield line up,Backwards passing to open up ‘10 space’

 

[JavierChicharito14]

3 小时前, kpsia518说:

 

Breaking Down a Compact Defence

https://www.gpstechnicalarea.com/news_article/show/828516

Backwards passing to open up ‘10 space’

 

from analysis,

1) empty the penalty boxes

2) winger just stay position,not allow to leave before you enter to the final third.You can do any thing in final third,but not in midfield

3) try to pull AI's midfield line up,Backwards passing to open up ‘10 space’

 

^^^ Point 2 !

However it's harder to implement in FM. Because even the winger in FM does not stay as wide as possible

BUT in pep's system, this is sososo important , Of course a good passer is needed to switch the play !

Henry also explains this point in this video:

 

 

[kpsia518]

40 minutes ago, JavierChicharito14 said:

^^^ Point 2 !

However it's harder to implement in FM. Because even the winger in FM does not stay as wide as possible

BUT in pep's system, this is sososo important , Of course a good passer is needed to switch the play !

Henry also explains this point in this video:

 

 

 

winger stay wide is easy

i do it with RMD,& pick "stay wide" in RMD's PI.

& this,Ö-zil do it with 4141 :

 

just the problem is what role should i use on CM role.

[JavierChicharito14]

在 2018/8/20 在 PM2点34分, kpsia518说:

 

winger stay wide is easy

i do it with RMD,& pick "stay wide" in RMD's PI.

& this,Ö-zil do it with 4141 :

 

just the problem is what role should i use on CM role.

Yeah I know but most of the time isn't wide enough. Hug Line PPM may help tho.

Somehow I hope in the future we have more detailed tactical center such as  How my team builds up before & after final third.